Yeah fully agree. I also don't get why he doesn't get some minutes here and there. I mean, the road has been rocky in the last couple of weeks, not the best place for doing little experiments but I mean, as others have said, Fred and McTominay aren't in awesome form as well, it would have been worth a shot to at least give Donny a few minutes at the end of games. I mean, the worst thing in my eyes would be that the season ends and we still don't know, if Donny can be sold of if it might be worth our time to find out if he can do a job in midfield. Right now, it is all just possibilities, he should be allowed to make himself a fool just like all the others!
The McFred midfield duo
- Thread starter kouroux
- Start date
But they were both terrible on the ball aswell so it doesn't even out in the end
Despite what anyone wishes to say, these two offer the best balance out of our midfield options. That's not to say they are perfect, but they offer greater balance to the team than any of the previously tried and tested combinations. They did need extra help last night, which they eventually received when Bruno started to sit a little deeper.
Trying to pick our CM is like choosing between being punched in the face or kicked in the stomach, they all have their limitations for what is required, Pogba can be anonymous and provides little defensively, Matas legs, Fred's passing and positional play and Mctominay doesn't excel at anything.
The issue is McFred basically have to play left/right midfielder/wingback roles with our structure.
Especially when we play Pogba it leaves our left side extremely vulnerable because we have basically 3 players way up the field every time we attack (and we attack mostly from the left) with Fred having to cover large area in behind. We conceded most of our attacks and goals from that side this year. Fred should rely of the support of at least one more body on the outside so he can be positioned more centrally to cover the runners.
We have seen that having Rashford on the right instead of Pogba helped as he tracks wide back leaving Fred more centrally.
Alternatively we can have Pogba on the right central wide instead of Greenwood, which would be a more defensive approach. I can totally see Ole doing that against Liverpool.
Especially when we play Pogba it leaves our left side extremely vulnerable because we have basically 3 players way up the field every time we attack (and we attack mostly from the left) with Fred having to cover large area in behind. We conceded most of our attacks and goals from that side this year. Fred should rely of the support of at least one more body on the outside so he can be positioned more centrally to cover the runners.
We have seen that having Rashford on the right instead of Pogba helped as he tracks wide back leaving Fred more centrally.
Alternatively we can have Pogba on the right central wide instead of Greenwood, which would be a more defensive approach. I can totally see Ole doing that against Liverpool.
I don't think they were terrible on the ball last night at all. There might be a chance, that there is a bit hyperbole going on, not complaining just trying to get to the root cause. I mean, Fred usually isn't terrible on the ball, he sure is alltime ready for a little blunder but he will pass it quick, often forward and reliable throughout a game. McTominay is the same in being reliable even though his lacking is pretty much even less adventurous. So if 0 is standard PL level, and we can say Pogba on great day is an 8 while Lukaku on a bad night is a -5 then Fred and McTominay are comfortable averaging between 2 and 4. That might not be great, but it certainly isn't well described with terrible.
I know, Fred is polarising a bit due to his price tag, and the two of them epitomize the manager for both sides of the big conflict to some degree but the players themselves aren't terrible. I can only advise to have a look at the scout profile on fbref (links below). These things compare the players stats from the last 365 days to ALL other players in the same position across the big leagues and both players rank pretty good there. Of course it is easy to find players who are better doing A or B or C and yeah, a club like Manchester United shouldn't be ok with alright to good midfielders and surely we can criticize the club for that but one thing shouldn't happen: it shouldn't effect the evaluation the skillset of a player.
https://fbref.com/en/players/b853e0ad/Fred
https://fbref.com/en/players/d93c2511/Scott-McTominay
Genuinely Fred and mctom are as average on the ball as you can get. All Leicester's midfielders for example are better on the ball. Even arsenal's midfielders are better on the ball.
Came across a very good video explaining why McTomminay struggles in our midfield. I think the title of the video is a bit unfair, but the content is pretty accurate. Basically he's not in the right positions to recieve passes from defence. Once he gets them though, he is decent at moving the ball up the pitch.
Stats seem to be all that matter, nothing you see with your eyes counts anymore unless you have stats to back it up. I don't care what the stats say.
I look at them both and they never look like they want to receive the ball in that area in front of the defence. You cannot play out from the back if your two base players are as ball shy as these two. You cannot sustain progressive attacking football when your two main midfielders have such poor awareness, first touch/control of the football coupled with a low quality and range of passing.
The video above says the same thing about being shy.
What he's talking about, I posted about McT the other night.
The first example happened in the first half, massive amount of space in front of DDG. McT goes to cover a Atalanta player and Fred arrives about 10 minutes later to look for it.
why dont we stop encouraging our fullbacks to press so far forward. and put the onus on our attacking midfielders to do the creating. it seems we want to play like liverpool, without having the creative FBs or the hardworking CMs to do it properly. so many times we get caught out on both flanks with opposition having acres of space.
It's not going to get any better than McFred until at least the January window, but probably the summer.
We'll just have to watch both struggle to escape the cover shadow until we replace them.
We'll just have to watch both struggle to escape the cover shadow until we replace them.
Happy to agree to disagree.
Ok boomer...
Who took a leak in your cornflakes, nobody even mentioned that stats are all that would matter. I always get this kind of notion from people either incapable or unwillig to understand stats because it isn't either or - stats could tell you the same story like your eyes as soon as all the stuff you can recognize with your eyes can get measured. Stats have flaws, especially to those who don't understand them but this is valid for the "eye check" as well. Look how many people struggle to see anything good in a player they don't like - perception is effected by bias'. Which absolutely fine as long as you are aware of it. And stats can help with that as they don't fall for bias' (at least as soon as you take a few of them into context of each other).Therefor nobody asks you to agree with the stats, but they are something that has more substance than potentially your eyecheck. Nothing wrong with that of course, you probably aren't working in the field are you?
Happy to agree to disagree.
Ok boomer...
Therefor nobody asks you to agree with the stats, but they are something that has more substance than potentially your eyecheck. Nothing wrong with that of course, you probably aren't working in the field are you?
I could watch Fred and McT play a game without ever having seen them play before and I wouldn't need any stats to tell me they simply aren't good enough on the ball to be the focal point of the Man Utd midfield.
High level stats are useful for 2 sets of people. Those working at football clubs and obsessed gamblers.
After that, it's people who work in "the field" that for some reason want to apply their qualifications in data analytics to somehow make it look like they both understand football and football data more than most football fans who really don't give a crap about it. Maybe it makes them feel like their job is actually worthwile by doing that, that they can make being interested in football as boring as spreadsheets.
When will this nightmare end. If Pogba leaves there's no real talent or passing ability left.
This probably tells us more about you than about Fred and Mctominay but who am I to tell you what to think an what to say.
You do you, mate, you do you. Have a good evening
Midfield is way more than just passing. You can have the best passer on the planet but he will struggle when he has to play on his own against teams who work together. We will buy another player, probably with way less natural talent than Pogba but hopefully with way more drive and commitment. We will be fine, I am sure about it. Would even go so far to say that the nightmare will somehow end when Pogba is gone. As good as he is, he is a nightmare to create a team around. There is a reason, the big teams aren't making a fuzz around him and it is only a big team who can afford him (and I don't just mean the financial sense).
How is it that such a so called mediocre manager in arteta has at least spotted and tried to sort out arsenal's midfield with partey and recently lakonga but ole is still content with mcfred after all the time he has been in charge and the 100's of millions to spend during that time??
Passing is one of the most fundamental parts of the game of football and most importantly the midfield, yes there is lot more but nothing more important for a Manchester United midfielder. This duo of Fred and McT is criminal, and we will solve nothing once we lose Pogba. We will just need 2 starting CM. Pogba is not the problem, we never ever brought a proper CDM and a coach who has a plan how to play them. Mourinho tried but failed along with his other cluster feck decisions.
Happy to agree to disagree.
Ok boomer...
Therefor nobody asks you to agree with the stats, but they are something that has more substance than potentially your eyecheck. Nothing wrong with that of course, you probably aren't working in the field are you?
Agree. Eye test is myopic, we see what we want to see and ignore what we don't. We lose sight (excuse the pun) that to become not only a professional footballer but one that's good enough to play club and international football at the highest level, you have an ability that separates you from other players. People use broad brush comments like 'can't pass' like you can get to the first team from an early age if you couldn't. You know Brazil has a population of over 200m people and the technical level you have to be to play for that team that separates you from a nation of quality footballers.
Scott and Fred I don't believe are the answer, they are square pegs in round holes, yet are criticised for not having the ability to play in a position that most would agree is as specialist and specific in terms of the midfield. So much so, there are only a handful of good un's in the world. This position in terms of football is relatively new and I can only recall Carrick at Utd you could call a CDM.
That said, McFred are honest as the day is long and Ole trust them cause they both would die for the badge. Ole darkest moments, these two have been a constant to get him a result, as they sacrifice their own natural games which allows others to play.
I think you could put McFred up as a free transfer and see how many of the bigger clubs come a calling for them. I reckon it would be none. Do they get into Chelseas, Citys or Liverpools midfield? Not for me they don't. Thats why we are so erratic, we havent got the quality in the middle of the park.
We tried to create something with Pogba for years now. It didn't work - Pogba wasn't the star of the show at Juve, he was flashy but the show was run by Pirlo and Vidal. He isn't the dominant footballer we all thought he as the ability and the will to be. He just isn't. Put in De Bruynes mindset and you probably have the best player in the world in terms of ability and physique.
I am a Pogba fan myself, always have been. But this huge timing error has to stop. It wasn't his fault that United went into the abyss during his stint. He has the quality to get in the biggest trophies, he should try to get titles and personal honors. In a team suited to him, a team suited to his strength. Like the France team is. With workrate and defensive stability in abundance around him.
Pogba isn't the problem and I would be happy and celebrating seeing him getting another try with another manager or another system suited to him. But not for 400k per week or anything. If he is committed to the club, he should show it by accepting a moderate raise. He won't do it because his entourage and his agent will be in his ear to tell what a great footballer he is and then he will leave, getting a potential transfer fee paid on top of his salary maybe. So he can still consider himself one of the greatest players of the planet...
Very well said.
If there is a constant in Ole's reign, it is that he wants to play it fast. He doesn't need the finest technicians to watch the ball flying over their heads all the time. What he needs are midfielders who are combatitive and will deal with the opponent once the ball is lost and we have to defend again. McFred is the most functional midfield in that regard. It certainly isn't great. But it is alright and looking at the current squad they are the best of an average bunch.
McFred are one factor in that equasion. One of many. Or would you say, that we weren't erratic against Leicester last weekend? We are erratic because we are unwilling to recycle possession, because our players don't play together as a team stay too far apart from each other not knowing what the others will do. Because our furthest forward midfielder plays more often like a striker instead of the midfielder.
I am ambivalent about McTominay, unfortunately I kind of don't see it with him right now, but I wouldn't be too shocked if Fred might hold his name high in a different club. Imagine him as one of the three workhorses in Liverpools midfield. Doesn't sound too bad for me. He could easily play as an 8 in one of the Italian teams, his style would suit him to current Bundesliga or Ligue Un as well. Granted, he probably won't get to the upper echelon but that is true for so many players in the top clubs. He isn't a destroyer, a Gattuso and he isn't an Alonso, he is a harrasser, someone to wreak havoc in front of another midfielder who will hold or as part of a midfield-three as part of relentless pressing setup. I'd even say, as a gift, even Tuchel or Pep would try him out.
Fred certainly isn't a victim here and his form suffered a bit in the last 12 month but we are not doing him any favors with what we are asking of him. Shielding the back-four, running the built-up and contributing in attack. And that next to academy graduate McTominay, 54-yo Matic or our free-spirited super-talent who seemingly rolls the dice before he enters the pitch.
I guess, I understand, that people want to place their frustration somewhere. And I know McFred aren't making this difficult. I guess, some people have decided their take on the players, so be it.
We tried? How? By bringing Fred? VdB? I think Jose tried with Matic, wrong player choice even back then and that was it. We never ever tried to bring a CDM besides Matic and we rip the fruits of that neglect imo.
Yes Pogba was a part of a great midfield trio back in the day in Juve, he was also a kid back than, and a different person. I myself have never been a great fan of Pogba and I don’t like his lack of commitment but he is also our only capable CM and I would like him to stay and the club at least to try and bring him a partner suited, we won’t be bringing two midfielders and that’s a feck up.
Even if I agree to some degree that we could have done more to accomodate Pogba better, at some point, you have to cut your losses. It isn't like Pogba during his time was somehow blocked by the players around him. Often enough he was the problem. No team in the world can carry somebody who is somewhat of a risk in the middle of the park. In a different team, a well oiled machine of a team, where players fight for each other following a good plan in attack and defense, sure, there is definitely room for Pogba. But we aren't that team. And even if Pogba isn't the only reason for that, we can't just pay 400k per week to somebody we hope to get a better and more consistent player at the age of 28 (?). That just doesn't make sense.
Great start from them.
What a fecking embarrassment.
What a fecking embarrassment.
Liverpool, our rivals and they look asleep….WTF!!!
The kid in that one video summed it up succinctly. McFred is McDead.
Mc half of it is Championship level
The day you prioritize recovering the ball to having the ball at a club like Man Utd is the day you should be fired.
Posted a video a few weeks ago of Fred's mistakes in ONE game.
Few of you bit my head off for it.
Now look at him and McT getting outclassed yet again.
If you're happy with mediocre (you lot that defended Fred in that video I posted) then so be it.
Few of you bit my head off for it.
Now look at him and McT getting outclassed yet again.
If you're happy with mediocre (you lot that defended Fred in that video I posted) then so be it.
They offer nothing offensively, nothing defensively like Ole seems to think they do.
just put DvB in there it can't be any worse.
just put DvB in there it can't be any worse.
People will point out he's been great for Brazil, without realizing that:
1. He plays a different role for Brazil
2. CONMEBOL is the weakest it's been in over a decade. Unfortunately I think Brazil will be exposed next year in Qatar when we have to face real opposition.
Can't wait for Pogba to leave to let them truly flourish without the burden of having a world cup winner on the sideslines.
As a fanbase we collectively deserve this shite as the groupthink ’work hard’ nonsense we see pushed has been a joke. Yes, players should work hard but the obsession with busy idiots has resulted in this. Playing McFred has been terrible for some time but ‘they work hard’.
We should be demanding quality, but no.
Easily being by pass. Never track the opponents. What is their role in this hame really?
People talk about the circus Pogba brings with him, they must be on about these two clowns!
We got destroyed by leicester with Pogba starting. The entire midfield is a shambles.
How a manager can be in charge for nearly 3 years and still thinks McFred are United quality is beyond me.
Im watching now and tbf, mcfred have 4 players in front of them that have absolutely no intention of helping them out
The press is clueless
The press is clueless