So it was the two CMs fault that 1. Maguire & Shaw don't know how to cut out a cross or spring an offside trap and 2. that shaw, lindelof & maguire can't contest a header? OK. Fred alone made more cut-outs & clearances in our box than either CB second half.We were okay in the first-half against Leicester, but fell part in the second half. Also, the attacking players put in a proper shift in today, something that won't happen in every game. Despite all that, they got passed easily and we conceded 2 goals. There was no midfield control, lets get that right.
This is exactly it. People keep blaming what is our best two man midfield..rather than realising the structure of a two man midfield is our problem. We need 3 players in our midfield (as most top teams do the past half a decade or more).Doesn't matter who was in midfield, you can't play 4 2 4 and expect any sort of domination.
Bruno dropping deeper in the 2nd half was the difference
Are you serious?! I think you have completely lost any reasoning and analytic ability. Please rewatch the two goals we conceded. The first was a messed up on left (Lindelof and Shaw) and Lindelof should take the most blame. The second was from the set piece.We played the majority of the 2nd half without the McFred duo so how about we discuss who terms we being played on in the 1st half.
I knew this would happen. McTom start a game we eventually win & despite the fact the duo aren’t responsible for the win they’re given credit by default of starting the game. The duo were broken up with the score at 1-2, momentum had swung but for the majority of the 66 minutes they were on the pitch together we were the lesser side.
They definitely are... a lot of the time, superior player quality will make the difference in the end, but a well coached team can really make a poorly coached team look like amateurs, which happens with us.But Leicester are better coached. . .
I think that is at least debatable. Atalanta is certainly more known for their offensive hunger than Leicester is. And looking at the whoscored data for both games, McFred combined had 10 tackles and interception, while Pogba and Matic combined had 5 (2+2 from Matic by the way). Plus as many have said, we contained Atalanta relatively well plus had both of them joining attacks plus securing defense. When I talk about McFred providing a better base, I don't mean their defensive prowess which isn't great (but still the best of all combinations tried so far) but because they provide the best balance for the team because their movement means they will be able to be outlets for their teammates.I was at both games. McFred were easily as open as the Leicester game. Only difference is Leicester are a far better team. We were completely open in both matches.
It works. Full stop
From memory we played it against one of the weaker European teams we faced last season, and they actually looked fairly good. VDB's best game up to that point if I remember correctly, although he's had a couple of better ones since then.Does anyone remember if we have tried Fred and DVB together?
Yet Ole keeps playing him. This will be a major reason why he just wont make itMcTominay is having a really bad season. McFred is already mediocre/cowardly/bad but McTominay is having a horrible season so it's compounding it. I don't know if he has lingering injury issues or what
Fred maybe. McTominay? He is absolutely atrocious at moving into space and making himself available to receive the ball. It's why he constantly gets on the ball over 20% less than any of our other midfielders. Even in this game he constantly ran away from the position we needed him to be in to give ourselves a midfield option.I think that is at least debatable. Atalanta is certainly more known for their offensive hunger than Leicester is. And looking at the whoscored data for both games, McFred combined had 10 tackles and interception, while Pogba and Matic combined had 5 (2+2 from Matic by the way). Plus as many have said, we contained Atalanta relatively well plus had both of them joining attacks plus securing defense. When I talk about McFred providing a better base, I don't mean their defensive prowess which isn't great (but still the best of all combinations tried so far) but because they provide the best balance for the team because their movement means they will be able to be outlets for their teammates.
Problem is it's a pointlessly small sample.You can do the data collection for that if you like.
Though what's happening this season is more relevant as we are playing so much worse regardless of what pair we play
McT is the problem. Not Fred. Remove McT and we play something at least. With him, we don't play at all
That isn't true in my eyes. Last weekend showed how empty a midfield can look with Pogba in it. He especially is extremely effected by the occasion and the opponent. He can be brilliant and he can be abysmal. He certainly is the most talented midfielder we have, but he probably is also the one who (averages) the least commitment, urgency, drive. You know what you get with McFred, you never know, what you might get with Pogba. He has all the tools for brilliant moments but in midfield, it is way more important to increase your baseline performance, than to increase you peak performance. That lessons was taught us by Scholes and Carrick, who usually weren't brilliant in any game, but they kept us ticking without any fuss, without mistakes. In theory, an actual 3-man-midfield (without a nominal 10) with McFred and Pogba/Donny might be very worth a try but we won't see that as long as we don't find another role for Bruno. And as long as we want to field an attack consisting of three strikers plus Bruno, we have to balance that.
For all the criticism which certainly isn't coming out of nowhere, I think, it needs to be noted, that McFred is by far the most functional one. But we have to make it work just like any other team has to find a solution to some numerical situations. We didn't have any kind of control in midfield in any game in the last 2 years. It isn't what we are trying to do. There is no point in waiting for our players to display that.
I don't think I've read a better description of the situation. I still like Pogba and I'm a sucker for moments of magic on the pitch thoughNail on head.
Pogba have had some truly phenomenal midfield performances, but his average baseline performance leaves a lot to be desired and tend to makes us incredibly imbalanced and top heavy if we play our regular formation
I’ve watched the goals lad.Are you serious?! I think you have completely lost any reasoning and analytic ability. Please rewatch the two goals we conceded. The first was a messed up on left (Lindelof and Shaw) and Lindelof should take the most blame. The second was from the set piece.
Buddy, you need to at least be reasonable, don’t you?
I’ve watched the goals lad.
Lindelof wonders, as his known to do - I’ve given up on this guy. Which means one of the ‘defensively aware’ midfield need to drop in. McT does this & Palasic ghosts in behind him for McT to only react when it’s far too late.
Lindelof shouldn’t be out a Left Back. Shaw should close the crosser. Maguire should drop further to try to be in line with the cross. Fred as usual has attempted & failed a tackle meaning he’s out of position to actually help & McT when covering for Lindelof needs to be far more aware of Passaic.
If you think McT does the job of a defensively astute covering midfielder then you’re lost. He gets run off time & again.
As for the second goal, there was a poster in here remarking how well he defends set pieces. That too, is a lie.
I think that is at least debatable. Atalanta is certainly more known for their offensive hunger than Leicester is. And looking at the whoscored data for both games, McFred combined had 10 tackles and interception, while Pogba and Matic combined had 5 (2+2 from Matic by the way). Plus as many have said, we contained Atalanta relatively well plus had both of them joining attacks plus securing defense. When I talk about McFred providing a better base, I don't mean their defensive prowess which isn't great (but still the best of all combinations tried so far) but because they provide the best balance for the team because their movement means they will be able to be outlets for their teammates.
I agree. To me our 4-2-4 shape (that caysed the first goal), a defensive error and profligacy killed us first half. It had nothing to do with mc-fredDid we even play that badly first half? We were more attacking and should have scored 3 or 4 while limiting Atalanta to very little.
Anyone criticising McFred is mental imo, the forwards finally had some sort of base to play off of and we had honest to God support high up the field
It was the space between Mcfred and the forward players that was the issue. Atalanta looked dangerous with all that space.I agree. To me our 4-2-4 shape (that caysed the first goal), a defensive error and profligacy killed us first half. It had nothing to do with mc-fred
This could work if you a) make sure that Bruno doesn't get sucked upfield again and b) one of either Greenwood or Rashford lowers himself to put in a defensive shift (probably alternating). Otherwise, it is risky. Certainly too top heavy for the bigger games coming up, especially Liverpool where I hope we will make use of the gameplan we deployed against City in the last league victory.McT looks way off pace this season and needs to be benched for a while. Would love to see a Pogba Fred midfield with Bruno at 10 and Greenwood, Ronaldo and Rashford up top.
We used it against Wolves and hasn’t been tried again.
Yeah you are right, we played with Donny and Fred against Young Boys Bern until AWBs red card. They were somewhat alright, not really shining but were fine. I agree, we should try this combination more often, especially Fred and Donny are moving quite a lot and they are trying to make the play fast, which might suit is pretty well. Both are missing really good sense of positioning though, rest of the team need to adjust to that.From memory we played it against one of the weaker European teams we faced last season, and they actually looked fairly good. VDB's best game up to that point if I remember correctly, although he's had a couple of better ones since then.
I get where you are coming from. I don't think McTom is really fit, don't like the look of him in the last weeks and I totally agree on the issues you listed. I still think, that he suits some games more than Pogba does because I'd say McTom usually isn't known for doing something mad. He is calmly doing his stuff, not great but also not shit. Don't want to picture that as something awesome, but it has its value, just like Pogbas brilliant moments have a value as well. It is all a question how the team is setup alltogether and from what I think to understand from our way of playing, I am sure McFred suits us the best. We are trying to release the ball to the strikers as soon as possible, Bruno can do that, there is no need(in most games) to have Pogba in there for that as well. It is more important to be able to defend better as soon as the ball returns which it will quite often when you tend to make use of some many risky passes.Fred maybe. McTominay? He is absolutely atrocious at moving into space and making himself available to receive the ball. It's why he constantly gets on the ball over 20% less than any of our other midfielders. Even in this game he constantly ran away from the position we needed him to be in to give ourselves a midfield option.
I would sign up on that description no problem. Only thing is, we shouldn't expect a "real" organized form of pressing to appear out of thin air all of a sudden. I agree with you, we should look to implement something like it but this probably is a pretty difficult thing to implement, especially during the season, especially during a though run of fixtures. Unfortunately, it looks like we didn't make use of the relatively easy start for stuff like that.I agree with you that our midfield looked better than the one we fielded against Leicester (although that is not saying much). Notably, for the first time in a while we didn't get burned on the counter very much. However, I don't agree that we contained Atalanta even relatively well. They had far too easy a time of it playing their way upfield, in the absence of not just any form of systematic high press, but even of rudimentary pressure on the ball carrier, including deep in our own half. We just dropped deep, kept shape and hoped for the best.
I'd also like to see that but unfortunately, I don't really see a way to have them play like that with Bruno. No realistic way I mean. I'd definitely try some sort 4-2-2-2 or even some sort of 3-4-1-2 . It could work, issue is that we have to many strikers playing wing positions and not enough, say, wingback types. It is difficult to provide some balance with that, which might be one of the main reasons for this years struggles.What was obvious in the match was when Cavani came on, the Atalanta defence were shook, they didn't know how to deal with Ronaldo and Cavani together, it left Maguire free to clatter one in after a clever flick from Cavani.
Could we have a system where Ronaldo and Cavani are together? It sounds good as you have the workhorse in Cavani who also has world class movement and Ronaldo who simply must be dealt with.
Problem is the midfield, what is the best combo to go with?
This time I believe it's the front 4 that were staying too far upfield without the ball first half. Leaving the back 4 and 2 deepest midfielders to defend against Atalanta's entire outfield force.It was the space between Mcfred and the forward players that was the issue. Atalanta looked dangerous with all that space.
I’ve said it many times, the team needs to be more compact. If that means the defence and MCfred pushing up a couple of yards or the forwards dropping back a little more and help out when we don’t have the ball. This is the major issue.
A three at the back system could work?I'd also like to see that but unfortunately, I don't really see a way to have them play like that with Bruno. No realistic way I mean. I'd definitely try some sort 4-2-2-2 or even some sort of 3-4-1-2 . It could work, issue is that we have to many strikers playing wing positions and not enough, say, wingback types. It is difficult to provide some balance with that, which might be one of the main reasons for this years struggles.
I would sign up on that description no problem. Only thing is, we shouldn't expect a "real" organized form of pressing to appear out of thin air all of a sudden. I agree with you, we should look to implement something like it but this probably is a pretty difficult thing to implement, especially during the season, especially during a though run of fixtures. Unfortunately, it looks like we didn't make use of the relatively easy start for stuff like that.
All in all, I agree, we should try to look in some basic patters of pressing for the occasional use but a real system shouldn't be expected, in the sense we shouldn't be angry to not see it. I mean, where should it appear from all of a sudden. Our offensive players are greatly suited for it as well, without Varane we have no outlook to having a higher line, all that factors in in pressing not being a smart choice to employ for us. At least right now. (To a point where I would even start asking Bruno to stop his running as long as he is the only one doing it. Of course it looks great for him, nice bit of fan service, but without some sort of plan to be used within the whole group it is nothing but a waste of energy in my eyes)
As much as Scott's lack of the most important aspects of being a midfielder does annoy me, I do agree that he's still generally the best option. That in itself shows how big of a problem it is. Pogba and Matic bring their own huge issues, and the set-up of our team (the front four not helping much) means we've got no choice but to go with the one who is a bit more solid defensively. As for VDB...well, he's generally been poor but I do have to say that for the first time I do think he's being hard done by as he has shown signs of starting to get to grips with the expectations lately.I get where you are coming from. I don't think McTom is really fit, don't like the look of him in the last weeks and I totally agree on the issues you listed. I still think, that he suits some games more than Pogba does because I'd say McTom usually isn't known for doing something mad. He is calmly doing his stuff, not great but also not shit. Don't want to picture that as something awesome, but it has its value, just like Pogbas brilliant moments have a value as well. It is all a question how the team is setup alltogether and from what I think to understand from our way of playing, I am sure McFred suits us the best. We are trying to release the ball to the strikers as soon as possible, Bruno can do that, there is no need(in most games) to have Pogba in there for that as well. It is more important to be able to defend better as soon as the ball returns which it will quite often when you tend to make use of some many risky passes.
Yeah I think, it could work. I think, yours could work, question would be, if Rashford could be motivated to play a more reserved role (keeping an eye on defense). Think, it would probably pan out to a more somewhat blurred 4-2-3-1 most of the time. I think, My take would be something like that:A three at the back system could work?
------------------------DDG
-----Varane-----Maguire-----Shaw
AWB----------Pogba-----Fred--------Rashford
----------------------Bruno
---------------Ronaldo---Cavani
Rashford would need to track back more and AWB would have to replicate his second-half form from last night consistently. Also, Bruno would need to drop deeper so we can have control in the midfield with Fred and Pogba.
Yeah makes sense. That is definitely something we have to work on, because, exactly how I understand your point, I also don't see that the team as a whole has some sort of overarching plan for it. I.e. Bruno engages very early on, while the midfield lurks on the halfway line and the defense is trying to go even further back to make themselves more to difficult to run in behind. All three must be aligned. But actually my feeling is that Ole expects his players to figure stuff like that out of their own. Maybe he expects all the others to hunt players down like Bruno as well - we don't know.No, but I'm not even really talking about an organized system of pressing. You can perfectly well play defensively relying primarily on compact shape instead of pressing, and we have done just that in the past, but even then (or perhaps especially then), conventional wisdom dictates there needs to be pressure on the opposing player carrying the ball. Otherwise it becomes much too easy to break down a team defending in that way. You give away exactly what the opposition needs in order to deal with a compact, balanced posture, which is time on the ball to make the right pass at the right time.
