The McFred midfield duo

[Hammondo]

We were down by 2 goals in the first-half, is how that good enough? If we play like that against Liverpool they will finish us off in 30 minutes. Also, we played much better when Pogba came on, his composure on the ball made a huge difference.

Yea the goals we conceded were bad, but in terms of our midfield control, our chances, their chances, where we had the ball, it was better than vs leister, statistically, objectively, better.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Yea the goals we conceded were bad, but in terms of our midfield control, our chances, their chances, where we had the ball, it was better than vs leister, statistically, objectively, better.

Just wow.

 

[PlayerOne]

Yea the goals we conceded were bad, but in terms of our midfield control, our chances, their chances, where we had the ball, it was better than vs leister, statistically, objectively, better.

We were okay in the first-half against Leicester, but fell part in the second half. Also, the attacking players put in a proper shift in today, something that won't happen in every game. Despite all that, they got passed easily and we conceded 2 goals. There was no midfield control, lets get that right.

 

[NZT-One]

Tactics certainly played a role. They were still shit though. Pogba is no worse in CM than they were this evening.

I think all 3 need replacing but the idea of McFred outweighs the actuality for me.

That isn't true in my eyes. Last weekend showed how empty a midfield can look with Pogba in it. He especially is extremely effected by the occasion and the opponent. He can be brilliant and he can be abysmal. He certainly is the most talented midfielder we have, but he probably is also the one who (averages) the least commitment, urgency, drive. You know what you get with McFred, you never know, what you might get with Pogba. He has all the tools for brilliant moments but in midfield, it is way more important to increase your baseline performance, than to increase you peak performance. That lessons was taught us by Scholes and Carrick, who usually weren't brilliant in any game, but they kept us ticking without any fuss, without mistakes. In theory, an actual 3-man-midfield (without a nominal 10) with McFred and Pogba/Donny might be very worth a try but we won't see that as long as we don't find another role for Bruno. And as long as we want to field an attack consisting of three strikers plus Bruno, we have to balance that.

For all the criticism which certainly isn't coming out of nowhere, I think, it needs to be noted, that McFred is by far the most functional one. But we have to make it work just like any other team has to find a solution to some numerical situations. We didn't have any kind of control in midfield in any game in the last 2 years. It isn't what we are trying to do. There is no point in waiting for our players to display that.

 

[Jeppers7]

The absolute state of McT for Leicester’s third goal and Atalanta’s first goal tonight....add West Ham’s in the league and possibly others too. Other players would be absolutely slated for less poor defensive contributions

 

[Hammondo]

Just wow.

Possession and where the possession was had, is objectively better this game compared to Leicester.

 

[Jeppers7]

That isn't true. Pogba especially is extremely effected by the occasion and the opponent. He can be brilliant and he can be abysmal. He certainly is the most talented midfielder we have, but he probably is also the one who (averages) the least commitment, urgency, drive. You know what you get with McFred, you never know, what you might get with Pogba. In theory, an actual 3-man-midfield (without a nominal 10) might be very worth a try but we won't see that as long as we don't find another role for Bruno.

For all the criticism which certainly isn't coming out of nowhere, I think, it needs to be noted, that McFred is by far the most functional one. But we have to make it work just like any other team has to find a solution to some numerical situations.

Nothing in attack and absolutely woeful defensive cover.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Nothing in attack and absolutely woeful defensive cover.

I was going to rebuttal something similar; the trouble with discussing the McFred duo with some is that you are arguing against the idea of the duo not the actuality.

They’re busy idiots so people act as if this makes them more useful in midfield when as has been seen today, against Villa, oh yea & Everton, to name recent games, they aren’t what people propose they are.

They give you nothing in attack, though tbf to McTom he’ll get on the end of something 1 out of 10 forays, so defensively they’d have to be imperious to be anywhere near comparable which they aren’t.

They’re the embodiment of OgSs united management career.

 

[NZT-One]

Nothing in attack and absolutely woeful defensive cover.

Not having them in there didn't bring much in attack nor in defense on the weekend. Indicates to me, that personnel shouldn't be the first or only thing to be adressed.

 

[Hammondo]

We were okay in the first-half against Leicester, but fell part in the second half. Also, the attacking players put in a proper shift in today, something that won't happen in every game. Despite all that, they got passed easily and we conceded 2 goals. There was no midfield control, lets get that right.

We were really poor in both halves. The attacking players should have had multiple goals in the first half.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Scholes was spot on. First half the shape was 4-2-4. So blaming mc Fred for the performance in first half is laughable.

 

[OhGee]

Mctominay was atrocious tonight. Lost his man for the first goal and was all over the place accept for where the ball was. His passing was substandard as per his norm. Fred was much better today. It’s not surprising we were a much better unit when he came off. Playing Maguire, Lindelof and McFred is an invitation for teams to press us and this weekend we will play against the gegenpress - so let’s see how Ole sets us up tactically against this.

 

[NZT-One]

I was going to rebuttal something similar; the trouble with discussing the McFred duo with some is that you are arguing against the idea of the duo not the actuality.

They’re busy idiots so people act as if this makes them more useful in midfield when as has been seen today, against Villa, oh yea & Everton, to name recent games, they aren’t what people propose they are.

They give you nothing in attack, though tbf to McTom he’ll get on the end of something 1 out of 10 forays, so defensively they’d have to be imperious to be anywhere near comparable which they aren’t.

They’re the embodiment of OgSs united management career.

The embodiment of Oles United has been neglecting midfield in various aspects - but surely not only personnel-wise. I'm happy to admit that I feel McTominay has been rushed back from injury and is easily below his average which didn't set the world alight as well. Add to that Fred's dipping form in the last months. So I totally see the criticsm but even with all that considered, they movement and engagement still gives us a better overall balance than all the other possible combinations. Picking a double pivot with our midfielders is very challenging. But this is also due to our attackers not helping whatsoever (seen in all previous games) and with the defense often staying relatively deep which isolates the midfield even more. In such a setup some of the best midfielders around would look lost.

 

[Ali Dia]

So much better than vs Leicester.

Miiiiiiles

 

[cyberman]

Scholes was spot on. First half the shape was 4-2-4. So blaming mc Fred for the performance in first half is laughable.

Did we even play that badly first half? We were more attacking and should have scored 3 or 4 while limiting Atalanta to very little.
Anyone criticising McFred is mental imo, the forwards finally had some sort of base to play off of and we had honest to God support high up the field

 

[rooney2009]

McT is not in form at the moment but Fred has been quite good
At least they both bring some aggression to our Team

 

[arnie_ni]

Doesn't matter who was in midfield, you can't play 4 2 4 and expect any sort of domination.

Bruno dropping deeper in the 2nd half was the difference

 

[Jeppers7]

Not having them in there didn't bring much in attack nor in defense on the weekend. Indicates to me, that personnel shouldn't be the first or only thing to be adressed.

Agreed. We need the manager to give the players the platform to perform...all of the players to be fair.

 

[Jeppers7]

Did we even play that badly first half? We were more attacking and should have scored 3 or 4 while limiting Atalanta to very little.
Anyone criticising McFred is mental imo, the forwards finally had some sort of base to play off of and we had honest to God support high up the field

We were 2-0 down and the player who scored the first ran off McT. As a pair they were all over the place defensively.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

The embodiment of Oles United has been neglecting midfield in various aspects - but surely not only personnel-wise. I'm happy to admit that I feel McTominay has been rushed back from injury and is easily below his average which didn't set the world alight as well. Add to that Fred's dipping form in the last months. So I totally see the criticsm but even with all that considered, they movement and engagement still gives us a better overall balance than all the other possible combinations. Picking a double pivot with our midfielders is very challenging. But this is also due to our attackers not helping whatsoever (seen in all previous games) and with the defense often staying relatively deep which isolates the midfield even more. In such a setup some of the best midfielders around would look lost.

Which is exactly what McFred did for 50+ minutes.

If you don’t have the midfielders for a double-pivot then don’t pick one. I think I get what you mean, if so I agree it’s personnel & tactical.

 

[Ajr]

Maybe needs to be vanfred instead

 

[Devil may care]

Neither are good enough but the bigger issue is how Bruno and the wide players operate off the ball, there's way too much space, that's another coaching issue.

 

[cyberman]

We were 2-0 down and the player who scored the first ran off McT. As a pair they were all over the place defensively.

It was a poor first goal but there was very little from open play after that. Our midfield coped really well with their threat. What did they really do? There should be many examples of Atalanta cutting through us.
Let’s not downplay Atlanta now, they were the one of the scariest sides in Europe going forward pre match.

 

[Jeppers7]

Miiiiiiles

Your giving McFred the credit for this despite their players running off them for fun. Jesus as long as they run. Who cares where they run. Rewatch the first goal. Watch Leicester’s third goal and watch McT let their player walk into the box and leave a channel for the cross. He’s awful defensively. Responsible for at least three goals already this season.

 

[golden_blunder]

Maybe needs to be vanfred instead

Should be FredVan (like bread van)

 

[Gasolin]

I was going to rebuttal something similar; the trouble with discussing the McFred duo with some is that you are arguing against the idea of the duo not the actuality.

They’re busy idiots so people act as if this makes them more useful in midfield when as has been seen today, against Villa, oh yea & Everton, to name recent games, they aren’t what people propose they are.

They give you nothing in attack, though tbf to McTom he’ll get on the end of something 1 out of 10 forays, so defensively they’d have to be imperious to be anywhere near comparable which they aren’t.

They’re the embodiment of OgSs united management career.

But isn't that what Scott is being asked to do, same for Fred? When they go forward, they had chances. It's what is asked of them when they play this role but it's almost as if this is not easy for them.

 

[Ali Dia]

Your giving McFred the credit for this despite their players running off them for fun. Jesus as long as they run. Who cares where they run. Rewatch the first goal. Watch Leicester’s third goal and watch McT let their player walk into the box and leave a channel for the cross. He’s awful defensively. Responsible for at least three goals already this season.

Fred was miles better tonight than Pogba or Matic last weekend. That’s a genuine gritty midfield performance. Winning the ball and getting it forward fast and keeping us ticking over. He tracked and didn’t switch off. He got forward only when it was on.

I’m not a fan of McT but he plays the position in a genuine way. If Pogba consistently worked like McT and took up the same positions and workrate we’d be better than fine.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

But isn't that what Scott is being asked to do, same for Fred? When they go forward, they had chances. It's what is asked of them when they play this role but it's almost as if this is not easy for them.

The other 9 times he’s ahead of the start of the counter though so if that’s what he’s asked to do he’s piss poor at it bar games versus Leeds.

They lack the natural instincts for the role & are rarely where they can help. Look at the first goal where Maguire [crap again] & Shaw were worried about the cutback. We’re apparently playing 2 more defensive minded midfielders & neither were in a position to make the defenders comfortable enough to engage the crosser.

I think it’s part tactic, part personnel.

 

[Gasolin]

The other 9 times he’s ahead of the start of the counter though so if that’s what he’s asked to do he’s piss poor at it bar games versus Leeds.

They lack the natural instincts for the role & are rarely where they can help. Look at the first goal where Maguire [crap again] & Shaw were worried about the cutback. We’re apparently playing 2 more defensive minded midfielders & neither were in a position to make the defenders comfortable enough to engage the crosser.

I think it’s part tactic, part personnel.

Maybe, I don't know. I think when Scott hit the bar is what Scott is capable of doing in that role, and what he should be doing, but he has some sort of mental blocking. Same thing for Fred, you see when he goes forward and Bruno combines with him, he had chances. So they just have to do that, I am sure that's what they are asked to do. But maybe it's too ambitious to expect that from those 2? I don't know really.

 

[Jeppers7]

I was going to rebuttal something similar; the trouble with discussing the McFred duo with some is that you are arguing against the idea of the duo not the actuality.

They’re busy idiots so people act as if this makes them more useful in midfield when as has been seen today, against Villa, oh yea & Everton, to name recent games, they aren’t what people propose they are.

They give you nothing in attack, though tbf to McTom he’ll get on the end of something 1 out of 10 forays, so defensively they’d have to be imperious to be anywhere near comparable which they aren’t.

They’re the embodiment of OgSs united management career.

Yep. The reality is that it gives us different attributes but not better cover for the defence and nothing offensively

 

[Jeppers7]

Fred was miles better tonight than Pogba or Matic last weekend. That’s a genuine gritty midfield performance. Winning the ball and getting it forward fast and keeping us ticking over. He tracked and didn’t switch off. He got forward only when it was on.

I’m not a fan of McT but he plays the position in a genuine way. If Pogba consistently worked like McT and took up the same positions and workrate we’d be better than fine.

No one played well last weekend and Fred has been poor as feck plenty this season. But let’s just pick random games and pretend that’s everything

 

[villain]

The idea of midfielders being hard workers first, and genuine quality second has us in a chokehold.
I blame the coaching of course, but the McFred midfield being this protector of the back 4 is a myth.

 

[mancan92]

That isn't true in my eyes. Last weekend showed how empty a midfield can look with Pogba in it. He especially is extremely effected by the occasion and the opponent. He can be brilliant and he can be abysmal. He certainly is the most talented midfielder we have, but he probably is also the one who (averages) the least commitment, urgency, drive. You know what you get with McFred, you never know, what you might get with Pogba. He has all the tools for brilliant moments but in midfield, it is way more important to increase your baseline performance, than to increase you peak performance. That lessons was taught us by Scholes and Carrick, who usually weren't brilliant in any game, but they kept us ticking without any fuss, without mistakes. In theory, an actual 3-man-midfield (without a nominal 10) with McFred and Pogba/Donny might be very worth a try but we won't see that as long as we don't find another role for Bruno. And as long as we want to field an attack consisting of three strikers plus Bruno, we have to balance that.

For all the criticism which certainly isn't coming out of nowhere, I think, it needs to be noted, that McFred is by far the most functional one. But we have to make it work just like any other team has to find a solution to some numerical situations. We didn't have any kind of control in midfield in any game in the last 2 years. It isn't what we are trying to do. There is no point in waiting for our players to display that.

I was at both games. McFred were easily as open as the Leicester game. Only difference is Leicester are a far better team. We were completely open in both matches.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

The idea of midfielders being hard workers first, and genuine quality second has us in a chokehold.
I blame the coaching of course, but the McFred midfield being this protector of the back 4 is a myth.

These 2 sentences speak to my soul!

It’s the anti-Pogba effect, because he’s been dreadful mostly anything that represents his opposite is championed when in fact all midfield options probably aren’t right.

Coaching is huge of course but the group think that McFred do a job they really don’t astounds me, take out all our other midfield options & just look at that pairing - it is genuinely embarrassing that they get credited for running round.

 

[Ali Dia]

No one played well last weekend and Fred has been poor as feck plenty this season. But let’s just pick random games and pretend that’s everything

We mostly didn’t play well last weekend because the counter was always on because the midfield was wide open and we didn’t press. We took some semblance of control in this game tonight when we at least start attempting to win 50/50s in midfield and got the ball early. We had them playing a lot more on our terms in the second half because of that. I agree it’s not pretty but it’s needed with an attack like ours.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

We mostly didn’t play well last weekend because the counter was always on because the midfield was wide open and we didn’t press. We took some semblance of control in this game tonight when we at least start attempting to win 50/50s in midfield and got the ball early. We had them playing a lot more on our terms in the second half because of that. I agree it’s not pretty but it’s needed with an attack like ours.

We played the majority of the 2nd half without the McFred duo so how about we discuss who terms we being played on in the 1st half.

I knew this would happen. McTom start a game we eventually win & despite the fact the duo aren’t responsible for the win they’re given credit by default of starting the game. The duo were broken up with the score at 1-2, momentum had swung but for the majority of the 66 minutes they were on the pitch together we were the lesser side.

 

[bosnian_red]

The McFred partnership works to make things gritty and give us more energy. They weren't the reason we were losing. We were losing because Atalanta is a better coached team than us, but at the same time they lost all composure and got nervous in the second which worked for us.

We don't have any other options in midfield other than Matic and Van de Beek though. Putting Pogba there only works in gung-ho situations because why not, but generally, he plain does not and will never work to give us balance behind Bruno, regardless of manager. So I don't mind McFred because at least they can do a better defensive job than other options.

 

[WR10]

It works. Full stop

 

[The_Midfielder]

The McFred partnership works to make things gritty and give us more energy. They weren't the reason we were losing. We were losing because Atalanta is a better coached team than us, but at the same time they lost all composure and got nervous in the second which worked for us.

We don't have any other options in midfield other than Matic and Van de Beek though. Putting Pogba there only works in gung-ho situations because why not, but generally, he plain does not and will never work to give us balance behind Bruno, regardless of manager. So I don't mind McFred because at least they can do a better defensive job than other options.

Yes they got nervous .. we are shite ..We wasted around 8 chances today.. and the talk is DeGea bailing us out !!

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

The McFred partnership works to make things gritty and give us more energy. They weren't the reason we were losing. We were losing because Atalanta is a better coached team than us, but at the same time they lost all composure and got nervous in the second which worked for us.

We don't have any other options in midfield other than Matic and Van de Beek though. Putting Pogba there only works in gung-ho situations because why not, but generally, he plain does not and will never work to give us balance behind Bruno, regardless of manager. So I don't mind McFred because at least they can do a better defensive job than other options.

But Leicester are better coached. . .