alonso767 said:
I don't want to get into another argument but you must remember that Kanye West's comments represented the feelings of millions of people across the world, you may not agree with them but they certainly were not moronic.
The Kanye West video clip from the NBC TV Fundraiser for Hurricane Katrina victims
- Thread starter FLASHWOK
- Start date
I don't want to get into another argument but you must remember that Kanye West's comments represented the feelings of millions of people across the world, you may not agree with them but they certainly were not moronic.
alonso767 said:
I was clarifying what the stereotype actually was, although the thing about most americans not having passports says a lot.
MUFC187 said:
yeah, it says that most americans recognize that they cant afford to travel abroad. its all about the geography of the nation, it costs a alot just to travel within the united states, let alone abroad.
although i will concede we do have more than our share of feckin morons who think america "rulez" and arent interested in going elsewhere.
MUFC187 said:
its not his thoughts, its the way he went about expressing them. he's a fecking tit in my book.
alonso767 said:
What was wrong with the way he went about it?
MUFC187 said:
It's amazing how much of the world an American can find at home, if one wishes to look there. The largest Hmong population outside of Laos is gathered here in Fresno. We also have large concentrations of first generation Vietnamese, Armenians, and Hispanics of all sorts. Mix in the Portuguese, Japanese, Italians, Irish, and even the "Germans from the Ukraine" groups (or the Scots who insist on putting on a "Highland Games" production every year at Coombs Ranch) and we run into a lot of "foreign cultures" on a daily basis. Most also put on ethnic celebrations in an effort to educate the other locals about their customs and holidays.
The problem I see is that, while you mention Portugal, Italy, or Greece, to an American, those "exotic ports of call" are next door to the UK--we travel that far to visit the relatives over Thanksgiving weekend. For the average American, however, you need to add in the additional 6000 miles (one way) air travel to hit those locations. A lot of us do it, but the prices mean it's not an annual event. It isn't a matter of interest, it's a matter of how much more are you actually going to learn or experience by plunking down the additional $5000. For a history/geography major like me, it's well worth the expense (when I can afford to take a wife and three kids!), but I can't speak for all 285 million of us. Many add the cost and figure, why not spend two weeks driving around the US?--you'll get all the geography changes you'd get on some other continent, you don't have to rent a different car, there's no problem with currency exchange rates, and if you run out of cash, it's easier to get home.
From the same perspective, how often have you been to the US, Canada, and Mexico? Same problem, it costs a load of dough to span the Atlantic and spend three weeks supporting other nations' tourist businesses. Realistically, how many of your typical English folk can afford frequent trans-Atlantic excursions?
i appreciate that, but is finances only half the reason that so few go abroad, is there any truth in the idea that Americans don't give a feck about anything that is not America.
I think some probably feel that way, but I'm sure some Europeans feel the same way. I doubt many Americans on here feel that way, though. It probably has something to do with education level -- the more educated, the more open the mind is and the more curious one is.MUFC187 said:
Actually, over here we have got some funny feckers who go away every year to the same part of Spain, a part which is basically a tourist place full of English people. They go over there, eat the full English breakfast, drink English beer all day, read English papers and basically hang around other English tourists all day before having English beef or something for dinner.
Basically, England with sun.
We have some very uncultured people i must admit.
Basically, England with sun.
We have some very uncultured people i must admit.
MUFC187 said:
maybe you should get yourself another source for your "ideas about America" because they are the worst kind of popularly bandied about ignorance.
I'd be willing to bet that I have travelled to many more countries and more often than you have in the course of my life, and am proud to say have friends in many countries.
TBH, you have demonstrated in this thread that you are the one who should expand his horizons a bit and not rely on third hand information...untill then you shouldn't even have to ask if " Americans don't give a feck about anything that is not America"
if you ask most Americans what city they would most like to visit that they have not been to they will invariably for the most part say, Paris, Rome than probably London. That shows an interst in toher places wouldn't you say?
you totally discount finances, time off, convenience and distance in your silly myopic view. why would an American with a week off, who lives in L.A. and is on an average salary, spend 2 full days of travel to go to Paris and about 1000$ for the round trip ticket when he or she can get a cheap package flight and hotel with meals to Hawaii for the same week for the the price of the Paris airfare alone?
I did Europe via train in 5 weeks a couple of times. France, Italy, Switzerland England, Spain and Germany, Holland and Belgium.
8 countries in 35 days is no trouble when you live in a place in such close proximity.
I would say most Englanders have not been to asia nearly as much as other people, mainly because of distance and perhaps cost....does this mean the English only have interest in England?
as for cost, all you have to do is look at Shane's posts about trying to get to the Benfica match...he's concerned about the expense that the major airlines charge from London...and that's what? An hour and a half flight?
multiply that by a MINIMUM of 5 to get rom NYC to Lisbon...
changes things a bit doesn't it?
Not really when i already said that i appreaciated that and i was actually asking, not telling if that was only half the problem.
MUFC187 said:
then why did you need to ask if you already new the answer? Or were you just on another windup?
MUFC187 said:
he was on a telethon trying to raise money for white and black people alike who are affected by a disaster, and he takes the opportunity to ignore those in need and instead focus on blabbering on about his political opinion.
proper statement: "these people need money and your help."
improper statement: "george bush doesnt care about black people."
do you see how one could possibly be more effective than the other in raising money?
FLASHWOK said:
I didn't already know the answer, that's why i asked.
alonso767 said:
Both were said, it's not like someone who was going to give money would have stopped after what he said, if they did then they are the ones with their prioreties the wrong way around.
MUFC187 said:
just like kanye has his priorities the wrong way round. he pushes his agenda rather than talking about those in need. theyre just as bad as kanya in my eyes.
So it's white people's fault Kanye West is a mindless twat?MUFC187 said:
Bush has won two elections in a row, that means he has a very solid following in the country(i'm not one of his supporters,btw). Thousands of people of all races are suffering as the result of the hurricane,thousands of others are trying to help them in any way possible(thru volunteer work,finansial donation,etc). Majority of those working hard to assist the victims of this disaster are white people,most money will come from the whites also,and Kanye West's mindless drivel is like a slap in their faces.
And by the way, have you ever been to US? Have you lived here? Or you just consider yourself an expert on racial relations in America because you've heard some great stories from "your friend's cousins"?
His mindless dribblings might well sell more records in the target demographic though. Time for another enquiry to his accountant maybe?
MUFC187 said:
So millions of people around the world think George Bush hates black people? Then how do they explain Condeleeza Rice, Colon Powell, and many other blacks being given high level cabinet positions?
That often leaves those racial Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime speechless, until they mumble something about "they're just puppets" or the most useless response from many pro-black, anti-whites - "they're not really black, they act white." Or something along those lines. In the black community, any similarity to being white is looked down upon. But if you look in the business world, the most common trait shared by blacks that made a successful and/or lucrative living (outside sports and entertainment) is the appearance of "acting white." Like having a college degree, speaking proper English, and dressing as a professional, which is what the label is claiming.
And that doesn't mean every white person has a college degree, speaks proper English, and dresses in a professional way.
MUFC187 said:
It's clear that you make up your statistics, as well as your "facts," as you go along.
If you actually read any of my posts, it might become obvious, even to you that there is no defined, homogenous "America." We are a conglomeration of refugees, ethnic groups, and ideas. Within each of our communities is an awareness (not shared by you) of how the home country operates and views the USA. Within the larger community we filter these ideas to our neighbors, associates, and acquaintences. Actually, we understand how the various people in various parts of the world view us. We are also aware that many, if not most of these various people are woefully weak on their understanding of what the United States of America actually is. In many ways, this country cannot be compared to a "nation" in Europe, but to the whole damn continent. I wouldn't expect a person from some little land in Europe to understand this. Ask a few of your friends who have actually been here more than once, and in more than one location, and you might actually learn something about the land you wish to teach us about.
Indeed, many in the states view people who live in California in much the same was as the Brits tend to view the French.
And I don't mean sophisticates who smell of garlic.
And I don't mean sophisticates who smell of garlic.
FresnoBob said:
I'd have to disagree. The majority of Americans are insular and mostly ignorant of events and cultures beyond their own. I've travelled the length and breadth of this country, and know more about its culture, history and politics than the majority of Americans. I think I'm in a pretty good position to make my claims.
That being said, there are many erudite, compassionate, interesting, and generous people in this country, and I'm glad to call it my home. But, institutional racism exists, and black people are generally born seriously disadvantaged in comparison to other racial groups. Steps are being taken to overcome this, and blacks need to step up themselves to help it happen. Their leaders fail them, while their role models are wholly uninspiring and project the wrong messages entirely. Kanye West is a good example of this.
I hope that Katrina serves as a wake-up call to both sides of this issue and causes real systemic changes to occur to rebuild both the physical and cultural damage wrought by this hurricane.
Most (or at least many) people are insular and ignorant wherever you are.
Many who travel widely remain so. In fact I have found that travel has narrowed my mind by confirming some stereotypes that I had always assumed to be untrue.
The Japanese travel widely but generally in a way that in no way makes them any less insular. Brits who only go to "British" resorts aren't opening their horizons so much as simply drinking and smoking different brands in a warmer climate.
Many who travel widely remain so. In fact I have found that travel has narrowed my mind by confirming some stereotypes that I had always assumed to be untrue.
The Japanese travel widely but generally in a way that in no way makes them any less insular. Brits who only go to "British" resorts aren't opening their horizons so much as simply drinking and smoking different brands in a warmer climate.
Wibble said:
I'd have to agree with you there. Certainly Britain is becoming as bad as America is, in contrast to the nation I recall when I was younger.
But, based on my experience America is far worse. Hopefully Flash and co. don't go off the deep end since they are clearly not to be included in this accusation.
In a country of 200 million that covers such a huge land mass it is almost inevitabel that many will be be insular in the sense that you can drive a day in either direction and still use the same cash in the same stores and be served by people with more or less the same accent. Same thing occurs in Oz to a lesser degree because of population size.
When I was in Oz, I did not experience the same insularity that one encounters in America. Aussies may well be geographically isolated, but they are certainly not ignorant, nor are they disinterested in world affairs to the extent that the average American is.
MUFC187 said:
Traveling from California to Texas to Florida to Massachusetts is very similar to traveling from England to Denmark to France to Greece. Each US state has a different culture to it. From the people to the cuisines to the recreational activities to the arts to the music and so on. Just becuase it's one nation doesn't mean that every person shares common views and preferences. There is plenty of history and unique experiences in cities like Boston, Charleston, Chicago, San Antonio, San Francisco, etc. No different than Milan, Paris, Munich, London, Barcelona, etc.
Being insular is fairly common in many nations, I'd presume. Seems to me that French people mostly care about French. English the same. Italians the same. Just because people travel or take interest in a foreign sporting club or art or music, does not eliminate the potential of insularity.
MrMarcello said:
That makes a lot of sense, although i think you would still get a more culturally diverse atmosphere and way of life in another country i hear what you are saying.
May I just reiterate that, unlike the other argument, i am actually asking whether a stereotype is true, i'm not saying it is.
MUFC187 said:
Dispite Grinner's claim to expertise on the US, I find that a country and population this big and diverse is hard to pin down and describe. I do know that a lot of people never end up leaving the US, or travel overseas only a few times in their lives, whether because of finances, the opportunity to see and experience many things in the US, or, as has been suggested, from lack of interest. Then we have the people who sojourn annually back to the homeland--include millions of Latin Americans (many of whom don't need passports to do so).
As far as the ignorance of the US populace as to the rest of the world, I note in my travels around Europe that many of the people I end up talking to--sales clerks, bar tenders, cabbies, and the like, don't know squat about the US either--even those with a cousin in Chicago or some relative in North Carolina.
Although geography was one of my major areas of study in college, I know many people detested the subject. For many Americans, in would seem, learning about the US is geography enough. Let's face it, this is a country with 50 states (plus DC), around 293 million people (excluding several million unaccounted for and in the country illegally), and 3,717,792 square miles of territory. Europe is somewhere between 3,800,000 and 4,057,000 square miles, depending on how much of Russia you want to include. UEFA recognizes around 53 entities as European nations--including Israel and Kazakhstan, which is pushing it a bit. Consider also that such places as Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Morino, Malta, the Faroe Islands, Luxembourg, and, possibly, the Vatican are viewed as "nations" when they'd not qualify as states over here.
From a geographical and, in some respects, cultural standpoint, learning about this place is about the same as learning about Europe. And travelling through the US can be as rewarding and time-consuming as travelling through Europe. As I mentioned before, we have a lot of ethnic groups, regional differences, and differing climates, so a lot of people probably don't see the need to spend the extra cash and inconvenience to bolster someone else's economy. Seriously--why go to the beach in Spain when Hawaii beckons, why fly to the Alps when you can drive to Vail?
People tend to learn what they need to know. Those who don't need to travel overseas probably don't feel the need to learn about the places never seen.
By the same token, even on a site like the Red Cafe I see that a lot of the posters who view themselves as learned, wise, and worldly view the US through eyes no more sophisticated and accurate than those of the "red necks" they so eagerly condemn.
Yeah, i see where you are coming from on this because most people would tend to learn and explore thier own country before others. This is easy for most countries, like England because, outside London, England doesn't have an awful lot of cultural variation or diversity. In fact, a lot of English people i have met from outside London tell me that they always wanted to see/live in London and the rest of the country didn't interest them that much.
Whole different situation in America I guess, seems to me that America more resembles a continent rather than a country. Completley different weather, different time zones and in lots of places different languages, i remember reading a statistic about the amount of people in American who didn't speak English as their first language, it was suprisingly high, mostly Spanish i believe.
There certainly is a lot more different things to see in America and when you combine that with the thing you mentioned earlier about the cost involved in leaving America for a major holiday destination in Europe or elswhere you see that it is a bit of an unfair comparison. Americans can't exactly pay 20 pounds for a one day ferry trip to France.
Whole different situation in America I guess, seems to me that America more resembles a continent rather than a country. Completley different weather, different time zones and in lots of places different languages, i remember reading a statistic about the amount of people in American who didn't speak English as their first language, it was suprisingly high, mostly Spanish i believe.
There certainly is a lot more different things to see in America and when you combine that with the thing you mentioned earlier about the cost involved in leaving America for a major holiday destination in Europe or elswhere you see that it is a bit of an unfair comparison. Americans can't exactly pay 20 pounds for a one day ferry trip to France.
a stuttering fool! !
'THE BIG BOO' CROWD HISSES KANYE WEST
Fri Sep 09 2005 10:30:28 ET
The chart topping hip hop rapper star who used a network hurricane fundraiser to charge "George Bush doesn't care about black people" was loudly and lustily booed during last night's NFL kickoff show.
The appearance of Kanye West, who was beamed into the Boston stadium via remote from Los Angeles, received a strongly negative response from the crowd.
"The boos were thunderous and lasted for much of his number," reports the BOSTON GLOBE.
Developing...
Fri Sep 09 2005 10:30:28 ET
The chart topping hip hop rapper star who used a network hurricane fundraiser to charge "George Bush doesn't care about black people" was loudly and lustily booed during last night's NFL kickoff show.
The appearance of Kanye West, who was beamed into the Boston stadium via remote from Los Angeles, received a strongly negative response from the crowd.
"The boos were thunderous and lasted for much of his number," reports the BOSTON GLOBE.
Developing...
So, does this mean the crowd hates black people?
What are you all on about?
shut up and post some vids insted.... or feck off to the current events forum.
shut up and post some vids insted.... or feck off to the current events forum.
very Ruud said:What are you all on about?
shut up and post some vids insted.... or feck off to the current events forum.
very Ruud doesn't care about black people...
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MrMarcello said:
No, but if they reflect the rest of the country, most of them are Bush supporters.
FresnoBob said:
America is the only nation on earth that exports its culture, politics and values on a large scale. Therefore, most people around the world can comment to some extent on America. The reverse does not apply, and most Americans are ignorant of the world around them. In fact, many Americans struggle to comment accurately on aspects of their own nation due to the diversity and geographic extremes that exist.
Having travelled through 42 states, most major cities, and driven from coast to coast and north to south, I do feel qualified to claim an expertise in this area. 90% of Americans I talk to say I've travelled more than they have through the states, many even claim to have never been beyond their own state's borders.
FLASHWOK said:
That's a bit strong isn't it?
Although Michael Moore gets booed a lot doesn't he?
Grinner said:
Glad you get to travel. Job related or pleasure? Not being from California originally, I enjoy getting out of here frequently (although job, costs, and family cut into vacation plans). In Sacto have you met very many people who admit they see know reason to leave this state because it has everything they really want? I've run into a few around here.
We don't export our "culture" (whatever that means) or our "values" (not that you or anyone else around here can tell me what "American values" actually are), the rest of the world import them.
Unlike the folks you apparently talk to on your travels, I have a damn good appreciation of both this nation and the world at large. Most of my contemporaries do as well. Many have travelled far more than I--China, Kenya, Peru, et cet. As I said, I find a lot of uneducated people in the rest of the world know squat about the US, although many of these people are the ones watching American television programs and movies, chowing down at McDonald's, swilling Coke, and dreaming about vacations at some overseas Disneyland resort. The idea that such stuff gives one an understanding of the US is sadly mistaken.
Looks like plenty of people thought he was ok aswell though
http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/5...A0FD61CB70F592C1EA4B9345761D5621B2AC3A62513D3
http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/5...A0FD61CB70F592C1EA4B9345761D5621B2AC3A62513D3