The Kanye West video clip from the NBC TV Fundraiser for Hurricane Katrina victims

[FLASHWOK]

I had deliberately tried to avoid posting anything here over the past days, but i think it is unavoidable.

FLASHWOKS, I'll ask you just one question, and please say what you truely believe from the bottom of your heart, your first answer will be good enough for me.

Do you honestly believe that if this natural dissaster had struck a place like New Hampshire, or Connecticut, or Maine, or River Oak - Texas, that the response would have been exactly the same? Thats my question to you!

Connecticut is a blue state. and the disaster is completely different is it not? there is no flooding that threatens New Hampshire anyway. The fact is, that the federal government can not be everywhere and local response is the PRIMARY means of dealing with disaster. Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi are red states so shouldn't it be consistent that they would receive MORE AID then a blue state if their being a political edge to this is what you are trying to get at?

Why let states with republican governors suffer so much? Governors of Alabama and Mississippi reacted quickly to these events...the governor of louisiana (white republican woman) and the mayor of New Orleans (black democrat man) reacted with complete incompetence.


I personally would have prefered it if Mr West did not say what he said, but he said what was on his mind and on the mind of millions of people all over the world, maybe more on the minds of Africans and people of African decent, but by no means restricted to them, people of all races seeing those pictures know full well that if that had been a predominantly caucasian city, the response would have been different.

Mr West may have put it in an emotional and distateful way, but in context what he said is true. Sadly, what he said (in context) will remain true even after New Orleans is rebuilt. I need not go into too many reason why this is, nor do i need to bother you with references because it is obviously not your problem, everyone has his/her own problems and being African-American, this is very much Mr West's problem. Plus, I hope you can appreciate that as humans, there are certain tragedies, certain suffering/prejudices, certain situations that you could never be able to comprehend, let alone empathise with, unless you are of the same race or nation or situation as that of the person/people going through it or that have been through it.

I'm jewish...I can relate to the Holocaust which sucked far worse I can guarantee you. There was neglect and no help from anywhere, certainly not the relief efforts you see underway in 3 states, not just the city of New Orleans I may remind you...there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of poor, middle class and wealthy whites who have lost everything and lives as well.

As I said, I am jewish, and not knowing about what was going on and not caring may have been the contributing part of why people did nothing about the holocaust...there was nothing to do with incompetence.

Fact is, In New Orleans, there was total incompetence in not evacuating the people on the 2000 school buses expressly for that purpose. Neglect and incompetence are two entirely different things.


My question is to you FLASHWOK, and to any other person who thinks that Mr West had no business saying what he felt was obvious.

that pretty much states how I feel. Perhaps you are not seeing the pictures of the national guardsmen and active army forces, as well as the doctors and medical workers who are overwhelmingly white, carrying, caring for, supporting and comforting tens of thousands of children, adults and elderly, the majority of whom, in New Orleans are black.

 

[MrMarcello]

Oh my, what if Mike Myers had a made a comment about a black politician hating white people? He'd be villified and assholes like Jesse Jackson and that Black Caucas group would be parading around his doorstep. Pisses me off to no end that a black man or woman can say whatever they want about racial issues but should a white person make his/her opinion known publicly, watch the backlash. It's ok for people like Reggie White to mock other races before a state senate, but John Rocker is villafied for basically speaking how he felt (no matter how stupid it was).

Kanye West used the typical route taken by entertainers and Hollywood neo-types. Nothing unusual. But anyone who actually takes these celebrities word-for-word (on politics) is short on intelligence and direction.

 

[Kleberson]

What makes politicians opinions anymore valid?

Are both of you slow? Do you really look for validity in the opinions of neo-soul hiphop producers? Get a clue. Kanye West knows about taking old Soul tracks and mixing them with a beat and singing/rapping over them about "social issues." That's his talent. Not social commentary in a time of crisis...or any other time, as a matter of fact.

Kids today...

Kanye West is involved in the "counscious" side of hip hop..if u know what that is

 

[MUFC187]

It seems, Flashwork that we have one major difference in opinion, the crucial one, that we disagree on the extent to which black people can feel that they have been neglected and let down by their government before and after this disaster.

The stuff you say about black people commiting more murders and it being at the hands of other black people maybe be true, in fact i don't doubt it. But surely you don't look at statistics like that and just shurg them off as being the way it is, surely you have to ask why?

I am sure that some of the poorest people in America are white but i think it's fair to say that there are plenty of black people who would take having to hunt for their dinner over ducking gunshots and life long prison stretches.
Surely you can't argue that the consequences of living in a poor, white area are much more grave than living in a black equivalent?

 

[ichatwitclinton]

I'm jewish...I can relate to the Holocaust which sucked far worse I can guarantee you. There was neglect and no help from anywhere, certainly not the relief efforts you see underway in 3 states, not just the city of New Orleans I may remind you.

I'm am glad you are Jewish FLASHWOK. Now, how would you feel if someone told you, or your father and grandfather (who were pobably alive during the holocaust) that all their ramblings about their suffering during the war is overated or that it is in fact outright bullshit?

I am not Jewish, so what moral right would i have to confront you, your father, your grandfather or any other Jewish person by saying that they are talking shit while they express their suffering (during the holocaust) in words, even if they blamed it on Churchill himself?

I want you to understand that because you are not black it is insulting on a black man for you to dismiss his grievience, when you have no idea what he is going through, just as it would be insulting for a non Jewish person to dismiss outright your fathers verbal frustration about the holocaust when he has no idea what it felt like to be Jewish during the war.

Like I said, if I were Mr West I wouldnt make the statement he made, but he made it and what he said is true in context. I wouldnt make that statement because those who understand know it already and those who dont will not.

Even today, anti-semitism is very much alive and growing, I read posts written by people like you and I on the internet saying that Jewish people make a lot of unnecessary noise about the holocaust and that it wasnt that bad, posts saying that Jews must have done something to deserve losing 6 million people. Now I'm sure that would outrage you.

My point is FLASHWOK, every people have their respective struggles, every people have what they are fighting for, and while you have every right to say what you like, it is still not apropriate for you to jump in and dismiss another man's struggle, you are not in a position to understand why Mr West said what he said. But I remind you that like Mr West, so many Jewish people never miss an opportunity to point out what they feel is anti-semitic (like the Prince wearing a Nazi uniform, or the Passion of Christ), and when that happens, a few non-Jewish people go on the internet and write all sorts of things, things like "here they go again", "we are tired of these Jews", "cant they just shut up" etc, but Jewish leaders will not relent.

Being the gentleman that you are, I beg you not to ridicule another man's struggle (even the most unorthodox form), I do not ask you to agree with it, all I ask of you is this, since it is not your problem, the least you can do is stay out of it.

 

[ichatwitclinton]

I can relate to the Holocaust which sucked far worse I can guarantee you..

My point exactly, you do not need to gaurantee me that the holocaust sucked far worse. I am not Jewish, I have my own problems, my own history, my own holocaust. I will not force my own grief down your throat.

But as a rational person I wouldnt dare ridicule your grief or your holocaust, I would always treat your people's struggle and grief with as high a regard as my own struggle and grief will allow, and most importantly I would'nt talk it down nor call an expression of this grief rubbish.

With a little bit more understanding, or an acceptance of the lack of it, we can all live in harmony.

 

[FLASHWOK]

It seems, Flashwork that we have one major difference in opinion, the crucial one, that we disagree on the extent to which black people can feel that they have been neglected and let down by their government before and after this disaster.

The stuff you say about black people commiting more murders and it being at the hands of other black people maybe be true, in fact i don't doubt it. But surely you don't look at statistics like that and just shurg them off as being the way it is, surely you have to ask why?

I am sure that some of the poorest people in America are white but i think it's fair to say that there are plenty of black people who would take having to hunt for their dinner over ducking gunshots and life long prison stretches.
Surely you can't argue that the consequences of living in a poor, white area are much more grave than living in a black equivalent?

as i have said, they are much more grave...and the reason is gunfire.

the only way that the next generation of youngblack kids growing up in the worst areas are going to have a chance is to jail the gang members and shooters that have been terrorizing the black community for years...don't take my word for it...there are preachers who walk young children to school in Compton in an attempt to keep the gangs and gun wielding thugs away from the kids.

most people in the black community in L.A. lock themselves into their homes at night for fear of their black thuggish neighbors.

the lack community is not making it any easier for itself either with the national recognition of "ebonics" as a language...the respected entertainer Bill Cosby said it in a nation interview and took lots of criticism for it, however it is true.

many black people and kids are taking themselves right out of the potential for a better life or education and job market by growing up speaking totally incorrect english so as not to appear to be acting "white"

you made a reference to no child being born a criminal in an earlier post, and that is true, which would mean you agree that environment factors into the kind of person that grows from it...so tell me, when children grow up in an environment where they are encouraged to speak incorrectly both at school and at home to "encourage" them, when the tests they than take are made easier so as not demonstrate cultural bias by asking them to test well in the language of their own country, what does that do for them?

you can forget any career as a Lawyer, Doctor, Banker...any good, high paying white collar job cannot be achieved if you speak english like an idiot, which is what these kids are being taught, so it is a double edged sword for them is it not?

you cannot expect a big financial firm to hire a candidate who can only speak gibberish can you?

so whose fault is t hat? The black community says it does not like when the white community tells it what to do etc and say we'll just do our own thing, then when they teach children things that will not help them get ahead in life but will actually force t hem to fall further behind, there is anger that whites are "neglecting" them by not hiring them...

you cannot have it both ways. If you don't teach children properly, can you blame employers and schools and such to say, "sorry we wan't the better candidate"

that goes straight to the heart of race in this country and for someone that does not live here, they are woefully unprepared to critique things.

I am a supporter of affirmative action programs a well as many programs that aid minority businesses and such, but I cannot in good conscience watch people figuratively slit their wrists, and then become upset when doors are closed because they want to do it "their way" and not the "american way"

there is a massive black middle class that is upwardly mobile and doing very well in this country, and they all have the same thing in common...they all speak english properly...the way all successfull Black Americans (Martin Luther King, Frederick DOuglas, Bill Cosby etc. etc.) do. that is the key to a better education, respect, and a good job with chance for alot of advancement or for starting one's own business with generous assistance from organizations devoted to minority business startups.

if you don't believe me, do a google search of Bill Cosby and his comments about ebonics or "speaking properly" etc.

 

[FLASHWOK]

I'm am glad you are Jewish FLASHWOK. Now, how would you feel if someone told you, or your father and grandfather (who were pobably alive during the holocaust) that all their ramblings about their suffering during the war is overated or that it is in fact outright bullshit?

nobody is saying their suffering was all "bullshit" so stop putting words in people's mouths. There are poor black people in other cities and has mentioned numerous times, not ALL the victims of this tragedy are black...just FYI. and the holocaust is a bit different than a flood.

I am not Jewish, so what moral right would i have to confront you, your father, your grandfather or any other Jewish person by saying that they are talking shit while they express their suffering (during the holocaust) in words, even if they blamed it on Churchill himself?

I couldn't care less what you think your right would be....confront whomever you want. I don't blame other races for my situation or that of the jews...we acknowledged that it would have been great if someone had helped us, but nobody did and we learned a lesson...nobody is going to take care of us or protect us...so we'll do it ourselves...welcome to the real world. NObody questions anyone's right to say "they are suffering" what I question is the right to continually blame problems on someone else.
I want you to understand that because you are not black it is insulting on a black man for you to dismiss his grievience, when you have no idea what he is going through, just as it would be insulting for a non Jewish person to dismiss outright your fathers verbal frustration about the holocaust when he has no idea what it felt like to be Jewish during the war.

Like I said, if I were Mr West I wouldnt make the statement he made, but he made it and what he said is true in context. I wouldnt make that statement because those who understand know it already and those who dont will not.

Even today, anti-semitism is very much alive and growing, I read posts written by people like you and I on the internet saying that Jewish people make a lot of unnecessary noise about the holocaust and that it wasnt that bad, posts saying that Jews must have done something to deserve losing 6 million people. Now I'm sure that would outrage you.

"Anti-Semitism is very much alive and growing?" So tell me another...when wasn't it? All you can do is take care of yourself and feck if I care what those assholes think. I have heard it a billion times, there is notjhing I can do to change the opinions of people like that, so I just continue to enjoy my own life as opposed to bitching about what others think. It might upset me, but it wouldn't ruin my life and I also wouldn't be victimized or paralysed by it.



My point is FLASHWOK, every people have their respective struggles, every people have what they are fighting for, and while you have every right to say what you like, it is still not apropriate for you to jump in and dismiss another man's struggle, you are not in a position to understand why Mr West said what he said. But I remind you that like Mr West, so many Jewish people never miss an opportunity to point out what they feel is anti-semitic (like the Prince wearing a Nazi uniform, or the Passion of Christ), and when that happens, a few non-Jewish people go on the internet and write all sorts of things, things like "here they go again", "we are tired of these Jews", "cant they just shut up" etc, but Jewish leaders will not relent.

and you are missing the fundamental difference...jews complain about holocaust denial, about faux-nazism etc. but we do not complain about OUR LIVES because we have our lives sorted as a race of people from a secure financial and intellectual standpoint that is widely acknowledged.

The people who mr. west refers to have nothing sorted, and it is only getting worse because the people who are suffering do nothing but blame the government.

Is there still racism in this country? You bet your ass there is, try going anywhere down south and you will find subtle and not so subtle hints everywhere such as the Klan and confederate flags etc. I have experienced both in your face racism towards blacks and in your face anti-semitism towards myself on a number of occasions, the difference is, blacks haven't figured out how to say "feck this, let's get our shit together and do it ourselves...screw these inbred crackers. We don't need them."

Instead they just stay attatched to the teat of the federal government, suckling what they can and complaining when they can't. They say the republicans don't care about them (maybe that's true) but they have been voting democrat for as long as they have had civil rights and their situation is not much better according to many like yourself. Why should the republicans care about them? Democrats don't care about the christian right, or millionaires looking for tax breaks.

Maybe they ought to try voting republican...who knows, they might have some new ideas that actually work to help black people, as opposed to the democrats who completely take the black vote for granted. Maybe if the 83% of blacks who vote democrat said to the republicans one day...."we'll switch all our votes to you," virtually guaranteeing the republicans control of the White House and Senate and House forever, "Now what are you going to do for us?" I bet you'd see a hell of a lot more done for them. Republicans may hate government spending, but they love pork barrel projects, they love the church, as do many black americans....who knows? it certainly can't get much worse

Being the gentleman that you are, I beg you not to ridicule another man's struggle (even the most unorthodox form), I do not ask you to agree with it, all I ask of you is this, since it is not your problem, the least you can do is stay out of it.

I would stay out of it if he aired his views in a suitable forum...he chose not to stay out of it at a non-partisan, non-political disaster charity benefit, so why should I stay out criticizing him for that?

Kanye West is not Martin Luther King, my friend...he is a black rapper that makes a fortune selling records to suburban white kids that glamorize the killing and brutality of the black inner cities for their own profit, much like Jay Z Snoop Dogg, Dr. Dre and hundreds of others.

 

[MUFC187]

Bill Cosby is a senile, old twat.

So, what are you saying exactly, that there are no real obstacles facing black people that are not faced by white people?
That it is just the black people themselves that are the answer to all their problems.?

 

[ichatwitclinton]

I would stay out of it if he aired his views in a suitable forum...he chose not to stay out of it at a non-partisan, non-political disaster charity benefit, so why should I stay out criticizing him for that?

Kanye West is not Martin Luther King, my friend...he is a black rapper that makes a fortune selling records to suburban white kids that glamorize the killing and brutality of the black inner cities for their own profit, much like Jay Z Snoop Dogg, Dr. Dre and hundreds of others.

Funny how you are so angry, you are the one doing the insulting, yet you are the one getting upset.

You've succeeded in confirming your bias so there is really no point in my engaging any further.

I did suspect this thread would be revealing.

 

[FLASHWOK]

Bill Cosby is a senile, old twat.

that goes to show what you know. You have just ended this conversation with that ridiculous remark.

Bill Cosby is a highly intelligent, extremely successfull man who prived black families with a wonderfull role model at a time when it was needed, he also provided a bridge to white america and is adored by tens of millions both white and black.

He created the first positive television show based on a SUCCESSFULL black family, with two extremely bright caring parents, and children who were encouraged and supported in a way that all families can relate to.

He showed white americans a different view... of the black middle class family as opposed to the shows that only showed blacks ghettoized and such. your comment is absolutely stupid and offbase. He made hundreds of millions of dollars and funded the schooling of hundreds of thousands of young black people, not to mention supporting the NAACP, his alma mater Temple University and a myriad of number of other generous charitable gifts.

Now that I know how you think, at least I have a better view of who am I arguing with. Successfull, intelligent black people who succeed magnifecntly, who help fellow people, who support the advancement of other blacks is a "senile old twat."

So, what are you saying exactly, that there are no real obstacles facing black people that are not faced by white people?

I have never said that. I said numerous times there are plenty of obstacles to deal with, some they have suffered and some they are busy creating with every new day.

and poor white people face many of the exact same obstacles, the only difference being gangs and gunfire as less prevalent in rural poor areas.

who do you think created the term "white trash"? It wasn't black people FYI.



That it is just the black people themselves that are the answer to all their problems.?

considering that even if there were some signifiant improvements in two or three areas such as health insurance (for all americans not just black ones) and some more infrastructure development and afirmative action, what the feck else do you expect exactly? they will have to still do it themselves even with improvements to the sysdtem, then what will there be to complain about if failures still persist?

no citizen of this country is technichally entitled to anything other than their civil rights.

all black americans are entitled to receive social security, vote, receive welfare as appropriate, receive food stamps assistance if necessary, to receive unemployment benefits if they have worked and have lost a job, are entitled to send their children to public schools, are entitled to public housing and numerou other benefits too numerous to mention.

are there areas for improvement? of course, but that is not solely a black issue i will remind you. The only other thing I can see being done is health coverage within the frame of a larger umniversal system.

aside from that, there really isn't much else that could be asked for or gotten.

everyone else in the rest of world, living in poverty would absolutely die in a life raft to get to these shores for a chance at the kind of start.


so yes , aside from some changes made that would effect all americans with regard to health care coverage, for all intents and purposes they are on their own, just like the rest of us.

 

[FLASHWOK]

Funny how you are so angry, you are the one doing the insulting, yet you are the one getting upset.

You've succeeded in confirming your bias so there is really no point in my engaging any further.

I did suspect this thread would be revealing.

what's funny?

I'm not angry at all I'm not upset and I'm not insulting anyone. I thought it was a stupid comment on his part that simply wasn't accurate and done in
the wrong atmosphere completely.

now I'm biased just because you cannot account or reconcile views of yours that I don't agree with?

that doesn't seem very mature from someone who came into this threadprofessing his honesty and genuine need for understanding of a sincere viewpoint, then upon getting it decides that he dislikes and accuses one of being biased even though his own position could be regarded as just as myopic as he accuses the other of being, justified only by what he believes to be his own correctness.

maybe you should have just stayed out of this thread entirely if this is what you suspected it would reveal, comfortable in the knowledge that your own opinion is the only one that matters, even though you claimed to want other honest opinions...even if you had no intention of respecting them.

so you did not come into this thread honestly with respect for anyone's views but your own.


hardly very genuine on your part now is it?

instead, when you didn't get the answers you demanded in your own head, and that they be the ones that are only acceptable to you, you accuse other people of being insulting and biased...

you don't even have the guts to reveal where you are from, what your ethnicity is, what struggles you or your people have "endured"


next time do us a favor and stay out if you weren't even prepared to consider another viewpoint either. you have proved nothing other than the fact that you are as stubborn and intractable as well as myopic with regards to what you believe as others are to what they believe.

 

[TheDevil'sOwn]

Kanye West is involved in the "counscious" side of hip hop..if u know what that is

I know precisely what that is you dim-witted, cock-gobbling, spunk monkey. I've spent the whole of my young adult life listening to the likes of Mos Def, Talib Kweli, KRS-One, Chuck D., Blackalicious, Zach DeLaRocha, Common, Dead Prez, Immortal Technique, The Roots, J-5, and so forth. Maybe you need to figure out what that side of "hip-hop" is precisely, because Kanye West is a Rocafella Records production, who would rather wear Louis Vuitton and steal from Louis Armstrong than come out with anything original or thought-provoking. That's a straight-up FACT. If he provokes you thoughts it's because you haven't developed them enough yet to see past his alleged "genius." I fecking despair sometimes, on here...I really do. Know what the feck you're talking about or shut the feck up.

As for our man, Kanye, it seemed like he had just stumbled over from the "semi-consciousness" rap scene to use a forum meant for raising funds and awareness of the situation going on in the Gulf Coast, a time for THOSE people SUFFERING in THAT place, to decide to mention that "George Bush hates black people." Really, how did you arrive at that, praytell? Condy Rice and Colin Powell must be shocked and flabbergasted at having been trusted by Ol' W with some kind of responsibility in his cabinet, huh? Especially since that responsibility wasn't limited to singing "Mamie" and doing a little softshoe.

He might try to be involved with the Neo-Soul movement and his rap might be fitted around social issues...but he's not a part of that scene in any meaningful way. What he did accomplish is coming off a prat and making a "shocking social statement" on national television the weekend before his new album comes out. That's straight bullshit and transparent as feck. He does not speak for the world, he does not speak for black people everywhere, he does not speak for black people in America, and he does not speak for me. That was an irresponsible statement that made him come off like a 2nd rate, illiterate, chart-topping rapper who doesn't know what the feck he's talking about and is too simple-minded to figure it out.

Also, his flow is shit and he's been stealing RZA's production techniques since day one. His stuff's all been done before. But...you would already know that, since you're so deeply ensconced in the "conscious" hip-hop scene, wouldn't you? Knob.

 

[MUFC187]

You don't have to tell me who Bill Cosby is or what he has done but, as you touched on in an earlier post, he has completley alienated himself from large parts of the black community, particularly the younger generation.
It is extremley patronising to assume that just because he is a succesful black man, that he is adored by the black community and that to put him down is to put down the succesfull black man.
But i'm sure if you were to ask old Bill whether it is easier to live in America as a white person or black person i think you know what answer you would get.

On Kanye West, he does not represent concious hip-hop and never claims to but whether he is smart or not, a good musician or not it doesn't really matter with what we are now talking about.

The fact that you live in America and don't see the major problems that need to be adressed regarding black communities suprises me.

Black people and white people are not on a level playing field in America, I know 2 different black males from New York through them being cousins of my friends here. They told me that they were shocked at being able to walk through the streets of London without most white people avoiding eye contact or even walking on the same side of the street as them if not many people were around.
One guy who is from the Bronx said that it felt very strange going into a local shop where there was a white guy behind the counter and being left to browse without the owner's eyes following him everwhere he goes.
This guy said that he is used to white people seeing him coming down the street towards them and crossing the street, I could not believe how bad the stuff he was saying was.
But this is part of the issue and part of what ichatwitclinton was saying, how can you tell me about how bad their situation is or whether it is the same as white people if you are not in it.
I will stay with this viewpoint until i hear any black American disagree, i never have.

p.s
Please stop with the Powell/Rice argument, it is so weak, the fact that he hired them really means feck all.

 

[MrMarcello]

Who else finds it hysterical that a poster from South London talks about US politics and events as if he/she was an American?

 

[MUFC187]

Who else finds it hysterical that a poster from South London talks about US politics and events as if he/she was an American?

What an idiotic comment, the irony of you making it on this site obviously goes over your head.

 

[antihenry]

The fact that you live in America and don't see the major problems that need to be adressed regarding black communities suprises me.

Black people and white people are not on a level playing field in America, I know 2 different black males from New York through them being cousins of my friends here. They told me that they were shocked at being able to walk through the streets of London without most white people avoiding eye contact or even walking on the same side of the street as them if not many people were around.
One guy who is from the Bronx said that it felt very strange going into a local shop where there was a white guy behind the counter and being left to browse without the owner's eyes following him everwhere he goes.
This guy said that he is used to white people seeing him coming down the street towards them and crossing the street, I could not believe how bad the stuff he was saying was.
But this is part of the issue and part of what ichatwitclinton was saying, how can you tell me about how bad their situation is or whether it is the same as white people if you are not in it.
I will stay with this viewpoint until i hear any black American disagree, i never have.

What a pile of bullsh!t.
White people crossing to the other side of the street and avoid eye contact with the blacks? What planet are you from?
I live in New York and i can tell you that your "friend's cousins" are full of sh!t.
There are "bad" neighbourhoods where people may get in trouble especially if they happen to be there in the late hours. But since those areas are mostly occupied by minorities, these people are the victims of the crimes most of the time.
There are oibviously stereotypes based on prejudices but there's also certain pattern of human behaviour(like shop owner keeping a close eye on the black guy) that's developed because they're based on real life experiences.

 

[Drifter]

Anything to back up your one liner? Twat.

Yes.Your argument seems to be that he should not have said what he did because he would upset the white community who were tuning in to this telethon.He had a go at Bush and his administration including Condoleezza Rice who as done nothing in her career to highlight the problems her people have been suffering.And if you cared to listen to what he said he as given a big donation and i'm sure that his Hip Hop and R&B buddies will be donating over the weeks and months to come if they haven't already.Unless you know every Hip Hop artist personally and speak to them on a regular bases you don't know what they have donated .Twat.

 

[antihenry]

Yes.Your argument seems to be that he should not have said what he did because he would upset the white community who were tuning in to this telethon.He had a go at Bush and his administration including Condoleezza Rice who as done nothing in her career to highlight the problems her people have been suffering.And if you cared to listen to what he said he as given a big donation and i'm sure that his Hip Hop and R&B buddies will be donating over the weeks and months to come if they haven't already.Unless you know every Hip Hop artist personally and speak to them on a regular bases you don't know what they have donated .Twat.

His donation means feck all compared to the kind of damage his statement made.
No matter how you put it, many people were offended by what he said.
As for "Bush doesn't care about the black people', here's an interesting piece from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4216508.stm
It was announced at a news conference by the Mayor Ray Nagin on Sunday 28 August, less than 24 hours before the hurricane struck early the next morning.
The question has to be asked: Why was it not ordered earlier?
The Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said at the same news conference that President Bush had called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation.

Next time before Kanye West opens his piehole and says something he should check the facts.
And even if every hip hop and R&B personality gives up their fortunes in favour of the hurricane victims it would be a drop in the sea.
I hate the most when people use tragedies like that to play the racist trump card. Who is Kanye West anyway to be getting all of this publicity? A celebrity who knows nothing about what is really going on in NO from his wealthy vantage point, except what he sees in the Media (which we all know focuses on the most extreme "newsworthy" stories). A celebrity who knows nothing about what is involved in organizing these rescue efforts or everything that the President is doing and is faced with.
Racism? No. There are hundreds of thousands individuals stranded in other Lousiana parishes (black, white, hispanic, etc - equal), with Hurricane damage/devastation, no water, no power, no gas to be able to evacuate and no relief. This is because state and federal goverment have to focus on NO and the criminal element there.
Kanye West is an ignorant man who prevented many generous donations from being recieved because of his racist speech toward America and it's citizens. How about we send him to New Orleans and see how long he survives with his friends?

 

[besty1]

isnt he the fella who plays for nigeria with the green hair?

 

[TheDevil'sOwn]

isnt he the fella who plays for nigeria with the green hair?

Not quite. He thinks black people hate Bush.

 

[TheDevil'sOwn]

On Kanye West, he does not represent concious hip-hop and never claims to but whether he is smart or not, a good musician or not it doesn't really matter with what we are now talking about.

Of course it doesn't. The fact that he bumbled out some complete clap-trap on (inter)National television, in an attempt to not only seem "up on what's down" but to have a large media presence right before the release of his new album shows that none of those things matter. You can clearly see what he's all about - opportunism and ignorance, not necessarily in that order.

The fact that you live in America and don't see the major problems that need to be adressed regarding black communities suprises me.

You don't know thing one about it. I'm Mexican-American and I live with the "spectre" of racism everyday because of the way I look and where I come from/grew up in Los Angeles. The same problems that are here now - will always be here. There's no cure for ignorance and poverty. If there were, it would make it much more likely that the "White Man tm" wouldn't have any problem with any minority, including the ones in his own racial profile. It's on those being affected by it to rise above and overcome - not sit around and hope they will figure it out eventually.

Black people and white people are not on a level playing field in America, I know 2 different black males from New York through them being cousins of my friends here. They told me that they were shocked at being able to walk through the streets of London without most white people avoiding eye contact or even walking on the same side of the street as them if not many people were around.

"Black man can't catch a cab." Yeah, it's the same story everywhere. White people avoiding eye contact?!? Are your cousin's friends producing an after-school TV special? I take it the race problem in England and Europe, with the racially motivated attack committed by Joey Barton's brother (using an axe) and the constant racist atunting of black footballers and athletes across that continent, is not nearly as bad as those published reports would lead us to believe. You've got it all figured out over there, havn't you? Pot - Kettle - Hypocrite.

One guy who is from the Bronx said that it felt very strange going into a local shop where there was a white guy behind the counter and being left to browse without the owner's eyes following him everwhere he goes.
This guy said that he is used to white people seeing him coming down the street towards them and crossing the street, I could not believe how bad the stuff he was saying was.

You only heard one extreme side of the story. I know black people who grew up and live in some of the more affluent communities of San Diego and San Jose, CA and, while having experienced some racism in their life, wouldn't say it's overwhelmingly terrible and hate it when EVERY issue has to have the race card played. If you can hear me from atop that soap box of yours: "It's just not always about race with black people. Or white people. Or brown people. Or yellow people. Sometimes, people are straight-up assholes."

But this is part of the issue and part of what ichatwitclinton was saying, how can you tell me about how bad their situation is or whether it is the same as white people if you are not in it.
I will stay with this viewpoint until i hear any black American disagree, i never have.

So, the easiest way to have your minds changed is if one black american shows up and says it's all fine?!? Typical ignorance and arrogance of people with no conception of what they're talking about. Keep watching Hollywood movies and TV and picking and choosing your social crises from there.

p.s
Please stop with the Powell/Rice argument, it is so weak, the fact that he hired them really means feck all.

Of course it means "feck all." Why it means "feck all" and "is weak" you're not about to explain...because you clearly can't. You would have done so, otherwise. Neither could Kanye West, as he didn't really feel the need to elaborate, either.

Don't get me wrong. George W. Bush is a complete plonker. A product of the system, a legacy of his father, and has never done anything worthy of holding the highest office in our country - but...he is President. Enough bible-thumpers, war-mongerers, and upper-class rich folk voted for him to make that happen. Can't change the past. But...he has appointed more latino/chicano judges to the US federal court system than any President before him. Does that mean "feck all," as well? He still hates black people, right? Or does that mean he hates brown people, too? Care to explain that? I didn't think you would. And I knew you couldn't. Because you don't really know what you're talking about and have steadily been talking out of your ass, along with ichatshit and Kleberson, in this thread.

What an absolute crock of shit your post was.

If you could take every stereotypical "Blacks feel the plight of Racism in America" situation you could collect from any media outlet or that you could think of, mixed it with glue, and smashed it onto some construction paper, and turned it in to your Social Studies teacher...it still wouldn't be nearly as ignorant nor as asinine as your drivel. But at least that one would receive a gold star for effort.

 

[FresnoBob]

What an idiotic comment, the irony of you making it on this site obviously goes over your head.

So you are a resident of South London posting on a Manchester United site, spewing forth about American racial politics--proving you are misinformed in that area and you want to insult some American who resides fairly near the area affected by Hurricane Katrina for having the audacity to post on this site? Have one of your more educated brethern on the site explain irony to you.

 

[MUFC187]

So you are a resident of South London posting on a Manchester United site, spewing forth about American racial politics--proving you are misinformed in that area and you want to insult some American who resides fairly near the area affected by Hurricane Katrina for having the audacity to post on this site? Have one of your more educated brethern on the site explain irony to you.

Do I have to live in America to comment on the countries' problems?

 

[MUFC187]

Typical American point of view, if it happens in America it must happen eveytwhere else. You probably don't realise how completley fecked up your country is, probably because, like most Americans, you never leave it. We had a racially motivated murder over here and it was front page news for weeks, they are so rare that everyone across the country knows the names of the victims for years after they happen.

Also, if you had read one of my earlier posts i referred to it being a problem in every country that has different races, i know it does, it's just that you don't seem to realise that in America it is so much worse. We have race problems, but the point i was making is that yours are on a completley different level.

It's funny how you guys talk about me being ignorant or misinformed when you are sitting there telling me exactly how bad a situation is when you don't know anything about it, how could you, are you going through it?

Once again i must say that i have never called George Bush racist, all i have said is that black people in America have had a reason to feel neglected and let down before this happened.

Seriously though, do you really believe that America's race situation is the same as ours?

 

[FresnoBob]

Do I have to live in America to comment on the countries' problems?

NO--and no one said you did. You are the arrogant twat who insulted an American for having the temerity to post on the RedCafe. We all should be able to comment on whatever topic we choose, be it politics, sports, music, or anything else. However--i think you are crossing the line on insulting other's views when it is obvious that you are not talking from a position of personal knowledge yourself. It's nice to have opinions, but remember, they are just that, and there are a host of other people around here who have as much or more information than you or I (on any given topic) and who might not agree with your position. I don't see where anyone involved in these various debates has a monopoly on truth.

For the record, cretin, I spent three weeks in England and Germany this summer, travel quite a bit, have my three kids travel quite a bit, and find the constant ignorant European sterotype of the non-travelling American rather tedious. If you want to insult someone, make sure you get your facts right.

 

[MUFC187]

You are the arrogant twat who insulted an American for having the temerity to post on the RedCafe

Remind me when i did that?

Just because you live in America it doesn't really give you a whole lot more insight than me, you may live there but are still no nearer to being in the position to comment.

 

[MrMarcello]

I don't live in England and therefore I don't go talking nonsense about their politics especially when I haven't a clue how that system works. I also don't spout "facts" without actual facts.

MUFC187 is a windup.

 

[TheDevil'sOwn]

Remind me when i did that?

Just because you live in America it doesn't really give you a whole lot more insight than me, you may live there but are still no nearer to being in the position to comment.

Living here, and turning every one of your ignorant points/suppositions on its ear, doesn't give someone insight enough to comment? Me living here, in this social climate, doesn't make what I say any more salient than someone like you, who hears his info third-hand off of somebody's American cousins? Get to feck.

You're either being blindingly intellectually dishonest with yourself, and the rest of us, or have gone off WUMming and now can't find your way back. FresnoBob is quite right - this "American" that doesn't travel stereotype is laughable. Even moresoe, is your incredulous proclamations that things are "so fecked up over here" and how stupid we must be to not see it - since you (the world) do. Hey, Ballbag - for clarification: It's nowhere near being like the way you think it is. Racism exists here - it exists everywhere, if we're honest. But the level you claim to see, or think you've heard about, is wholly inaccurate. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Your opinion is so off base, that you continuing to have it will make a mockery of everything else you might actually know about and want to discuss on here, in the future. Stop lying to yourself - and stop trying to lie to us.

You don't know jackshit...and you've been sussed. It's time you stop offering opinion as fact and come with something better than "only black people can talk about racism in America." Really, dickhead? What about every other ethnic minority in this country? Are we just not glamorous enough for you? Or does our opinion not mean anymore than someone who doesn't live here and may have never even traveled over to visit us? Does growing up in poverty-stricken neighborhoods make it any more "real" for me or make me that much more "down" with what's going on in the streets? Check - got that covered. Feel free to stop telling people what to think, especially when you don't have the first clue as to what the right way to do that might be.

Prat.

 

[MUFC187]

Living here, and turning every one of your ignorant points/suppositions on its ear, doesn't give someone insight enough to comment? Me living here, in this social climate, doesn't make what I say any more salient than someone like you, who hears his info third-hand off of somebody's American cousins? Get to feck.

You're either being blindingly intellectually dishonest with yourself, and the rest of us, or have gone off WUMming and now can't find your way back. FresnoBob is quite right - this "American" that doesn't travel stereotype is laughable. Even moresoe, is your incredulous proclamations that things are "so fecked up over here" and how stupid we must be to not see it - since you (the world) do. Hey, Ballbag - for clarification: It's nowhere near being like the way you think it is. Racism exists here - it exists everywhere, if we're honest. But the level you claim to see, or think you've heard about, is wholly inaccurate. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Your opinion is so off base, that you continuing to have it will make a mockery of everything else you might actually know about and want to discuss on here, in the future. Stop lying to yourself - and stop trying to lie to us.

You don't know jackshit...and you've been sussed. It's time you stop offering opinion as fact and come with something better than "only black people can talk about racism in America." Really, dickhead? What about every other ethnic minority in this country? Are we just not glamorous enough for you? Or does our opinion not mean anymore than someone who doesn't live here and may have never even traveled over to visit us? Does growing up in poverty-stricken neighborhoods make it any more "real" for me or make me that much more "down" with what's going on in the streets? Check - got that covered. Feel free to stop telling people what to think, especially when you don't have the first clue as to what the right way to do that might be.

Prat.

I have had black Americans tell me how fecked up the race situation is in America, i have heard many famous black people, who's opinion i value say the same. I have also seen and read about things which back this up.
What makes you think I would then be told by a couple of non-black Americans that it is not true.?

It's like the other guy said, you can't judge another's struggle, you can't tell me what it is like to live as a poor, black person in America, YOU ARE NOT ONE.

Maybe this is why you're opinions don't make me change my mind much.

 

[Ronaldo07]

find the constant ignorant European sterotype of the non-travelling American rather tedious.

The fact that more than half of Americas citizens donte even have a passport makes it far more than a stereotype dont you think

 

[FresnoBob]

The fact that more than half of Americas citizens donte even have a passport makes it far more than a stereotype dont you think

I think you'll find that the crap sterotype of the non-travelling American is used primarily by head-up-their-ass Europeans looking for some way to insult an American, not as a salient fact for any argument real or imagined. The fact is Americans travel quite a bit, it's just that we don't have to leave the immediate area to find just about everything we need.

When you already have California, Alaska, Hawaii, Colorado, Florida, and Wisconsin in the same nation, do many of our locals really have to travel outside the country? Mountains, we have them. Ditto big rivers, beautiful beaches, large cities, wide open plains, high desert, and jungle. We also don't need passports to visit Canada or Mexico. For the non-passport owners, there are thousands of miles to fly, and countless places to see without leaving North America.

Although my entire family has passports and travels overseas (Europe, New Zealand, Japan, etc.), last calendar year (2004) my two younger kids, then 13 and 11, picked up over 16,000 air miles without leaving the US--three trips flying from Fresno to D.C., New York, and Alaska. It is further from Fresno to St. Louis than from London to Moscow. I'm not overly impressed that some chap living in a minor principality in or around a small peninsula of peninsulas can travel several hundred miles and pass through 5 different "countries." When it's farther from my house to the parking lot of the closest professional soccer (as it's called over here) team's stadium within this state than it is from Antwerp to Paris, the number of nations some Euro college student has had beers in seems rather irrelevant.

Rather than match number of nations visited--try matching up the number of miles travelled. You'll find that Americans travel quite a bit. It isn't our fault you live in some postage stamp land and need to get out of it to find a place fit for a vacation.

 

[Man Utd Mrs]

Class.

Mike Myers face is a feckin' picture.

 

[Man Utd Mrs]

I just watched it again...........Mike Myers is struck dum, I think!

 

[MUFC187]

I think you'll find that the crap sterotype of the non-travelling American is used primarily by head-up-their-ass Europeans looking for some way to insult an American, not as a salient fact for any argument real or imagined. The fact is Americans travel quite a bit, it's just that we don't have to leave the immediate area to find just about everything we need.

When you already have California, Alaska, Hawaii, Colorado, Florida, and Wisconsin in the same nation, do many of our locals really have to travel outside the country? Mountains, we have them. Ditto big rivers, beautiful beaches, large cities, wide open plains, high desert, and jungle. We also don't need passports to visit Canada or Mexico. For the non-passport owners, there are thousands of miles to fly, and countless places to see without leaving North America.

Although my entire family has passports and travels overseas (Europe, New Zealand, Japan, etc.), last calendar year (2004) my two younger kids, then 13 and 11, picked up over 16,000 air miles without leaving the US--three trips flying from Fresno to D.C., New York, and Alaska. It is further from Fresno to St. Louis than from London to Moscow. I'm not overly impressed that some chap living in a minor principality in or around a small peninsula of peninsulas can travel several hundred miles and pass through 5 different "countries." When it's farther from my house to the parking lot of the closest professional soccer (as it's called over here) team's stadium within this state than it is from Antwerp to Paris, the number of nations some Euro college student has had beers in seems rather irrelevant.

Rather than match number of nations visited--try matching up the number of miles travelled. You'll find that Americans travel quite a bit. It isn't our fault you live in some postage stamp land and need to get out of it to find a place fit for a vacation.

I think the point made about Americans and travel is that they seem uninterested in exploring other cultures, languages and completley different ways of life. I would have thought, if you were American, it would be a more interesting trip in terms of seeing new things, to go to a country like Portugal, Italy or Greece, than simply going to another state. Not saying that Americans don't do it, just saying that the stereotype is more about that rather than how far they are actually prepared to go, people feel that Americans don't have an interest in the rest of the world.

 

[Man Utd Mrs]

I find Americans to be very well travelled.
All the ones I've met have been to Europe more times than I have.

Obviously, there will be exceptions to the rule.

 

[MUFC187]

I find Americans to be very well travelled.
All the ones I've met have been to Europe more times than I have.

Obviously, there will be exceptions to the rule.

Where have you met these Americans?

 

[alonso767]

just watched it, i feel awful for mike myers. i wonder what he said after the camera cut away.

the best part is, some conservatives were probably convinced not to give aid to this particular organization because of tits like kanye west up there acting like fecking morons.

 

[alonso767]

Oh my, what if Mike Myers had a made a comment about a black politician hating white people? He'd be villified and assholes like Jesse Jackson and that Black Caucas group would be parading around his doorstep. Pisses me off to no end that a black man or woman can say whatever they want about racial issues but should a white person make his/her opinion known publicly, watch the backlash. It's ok for people like Reggie White to mock other races before a state senate, but John Rocker is villafied for basically speaking how he felt (no matter how stupid it was).

Kanye West used the typical route taken by entertainers and Hollywood neo-types. Nothing unusual. But anyone who actually takes these celebrities word-for-word (on politics) is short on intelligence and direction.

good post, completely agree.

 

[alonso767]

Where have you met these Americans?

dont know how you get off saying we're not well-travelled. first of all, its incredibly more expensive for a yank to travel to spain for a week than for a brit, so to even compare the two is completely absurd. it costs nearly 2 thousand dollars to fly to paris round trip, whereas a flight on thompson airlines from the UK to valencia, spain is about 50 quid.

and secondly, most of the people i know have been to europe, and almost every one has been out of the country once. but i do concede that i and may peers are amongst a small group who can afford it.