So he had what 4 months to install a decent infrastructure before the transfer window even opened? Also I don't get how chasing a player for more than two months that simply doesn't want to come is down to a lack of empirical data? I also don't know how overspending in a position that was not of any urgency (CB) is down to that either. Actually I don't think ANY of his failures this window can be put down to a lack empirical data? This sounds like a very very cheap excuse, especially as he was a big part for that stone-age system for a long time.
The John Murtough Era
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So he had what 4 months to install a decent infrastructure before the transfer window even opened? Also I don't get how chasing a player for more than two months that simply doesn't want to come is down to a lack of empirical data? I also don't know how overspending in a position that was not of any urgency (CB) is down to that either. Actually I don't think ANY of his failures this window can be put down to a lack empirical data? This sounds like a very very cheap excuse, especially as he was a big part for that stone-age system for a long time.
Its one season by the way. With no prior knowledge of crazy mistakes when Woodward first started.
Woodward whilst he was absolute shite, certainly did not hire a manager he wanted and not back him properly in the first summer.
Woodward is absolute crap, yes but this is next levels of shite this summer.
An important factor here is that for a very long time Michael Edwards was judged as an incompetent joke by everybody, both inside and outside of Liverpool, until suddenly he wasn’t.
This isn’t me saying this window has been great, it undoubtedly hasn’t been, but as many have said you very rarely get immediate results. There’s no certainties that a known name like, say, Monchi works out either, just ask Roma.
Restructures do take time. Everybody said this would take patience. If it all crumbles down the line then it’s the answer as to whether it worked or not. We can’t go ripping up a plan before it’s even had a chance.
Hopefully Arnold would learn from this mess and bring someone specialised from outside the club.
Its the same level of shit because Murtough was Woodward's fixer
Yes and fall guy is it. Again, it comes from the top. How was he ever appointed.
Appoint someone externally that knows what they are doing in the role. I think we'd be better off with 6/10 quality experienced DOF that might not have the best eye for talent than this guy fumbling about. Too many basics have clearly gone wrong this summer for us to have much hope.
We've now agreed two deals with clubs seemingly without sounding out the players properly. First it was FDJ which admittedly was/is complicated but it's clear and has been for a while that he's not all that interesting in joining. Now it's Rabiot who was available all summer, yet we only get into discussions about salary after the fee has been agreed.
Now we're making an approach for Casemiro which just seems like a wild punch in the dark.
Arnoutovic bid and then backtrack
These are just the things that have been reported by Ornstein alone.
Our general structure is probably an issue for Murtough but surely you don't think this is the best he or anyone could have gone? Understand if your concern is we just hire another guy internally in the hope they can step up then yes we'll be in this cycle for another 10 years.
We will never hire a DOF with the Glazers in charge
Well, i guess it's not surprising that they're looking for a scapegoat after this horrendous window.
Nothing will change if his replacement is another one from within the club (Fletcher?).
This is a golden opportunity for Arnold to bring in a competent DOF from outside but probably won't happen.
Nothing will change if his replacement is another one from within the club (Fletcher?).
This is a golden opportunity for Arnold to bring in a competent DOF from outside but probably won't happen.
This is what happens when you don’t hire best in class. Sick of these internal, jobs for the boys appointments. You’ve got Michael Edwards currently out of work, go and fecking get him! Be pro active for once Utd.
What are he and Fletcher even doing at the club? They have zero experience for the positions they are in. Might as well appoint me, I have about the same experience as them in being a DOF or technical director. Where do I apply?
Yeah, but you have to hope that Arnold will learn from this mistake and hire someone from outside the club. Woodward clearly didnt want a DOF but recognised he needed to hire one for PR reasons as everyone and their mums could see we needed one, so he hired an amiable bloke internal candidate.
At least Arnold has recognized that the club can't keep on burning through money like it has, and the way to stop that is hire someone who knows what they're doing in terms of squad building.
It probably won't happen, but its are our only hope at the moment.
At this point, evidently by what we see, IMO Adnan was fed with propaganda if indeed the info he acquired is from actually insiders. Just like how Arnold told those fans in the pub that club people camping in Barcelona working on FdJ transfer month ago.
Just because you heard from the reliable source, even those involved in the matter itself, doesn't mean it is good info. Those sources may have their own agenda, and lie to cover themselves.
There is no common sense in believing that a Dof with time to spare couldn't draw up a list of transfer target. You don't need to a perfect complete structure to do that. Or for someone who has been with the club for almost a decade, it's impossible to not see that this squad is unsuitable the football with extra insiders info like attending training, video record of the games with better view of the hold pitch, if you don't trust the sport data science department or our scouting assessment of our own players.
It's beyond disbelief that a DoF that could disagree with RR that extend that RR consultant contract got cancelled, and he thought EtH assessment would be drastically different. Here we go. Many of us fan had seen this coming from miles away.
How much of that was because their recommendations were falling on deaf ears?
Genuine question - and we'll probably never know the answer, but it wouldn't surprise me if we did have scouts who knew what they were doing and the people above them think they know better.
Learning on the job it seems. They'll be at a decent level a decade from now when we're a bottom half team.
As he should be. He has fallen upwards several times since he came to Man Utd. Look at the shambles of this transfer window. This is despite him appointing a Deputy Football Director to support him. Mind boggling.
Bingo!
I genuinely think a lot of people on the CAF could be a better Football Director than John Murtough. I mean, what does he do? He has a Deputy Football Director to do all admin he doesn't want to do. There's directors for the Women's teams and Youth set up. What is he actually contributing? Cos its clearly not a coherent plan for squad management and strengthening.
I swear, you could walk into the Old Nag's Head and find the most tanked up lad you can and they'd tell you Man Utd need a defensive midfielder. How the f-k have we got this far into the window without buying one? De Jong is not a defensive midfielder. He's your new Paul Scholes, your deep laying playmaker. Where the hell is our new Michael Carrick? Carrick retired years ago, anyone with eyes can see we're crying out for a replacement. But our Football Director is flying around Europe trying to buy Rabiot. Who's basically a pound shop Leon Goretzka.
Like Ralf? My concern is that they don't even want to make it right or are not capable. I think we will only make the right appointments once another ambitious owner comes in.
Unless someone can provide a link to that, that just sounds implausible, and like a rather self-defeating line of reasoning (We don't have good enough data, so we're better off just chasing whoever ETH likes?). Expecting people to wade through Adnans posting history to find it is a bit much....
Imagine making Woodward looking competent.
Sack him end of the window.
It's been a disaster. How much of that is actually his fault? I can't say.
But recruitment falls under his remit, so the buck stops with him at some point.
But recruitment falls under his remit, so the buck stops with him at some point.
I hate to break this to you...
A different person at a different club is definitely not an important factor. It’s like people saying it took Klopp time so give Ole time.
Did I read it right? So we have a DoF who couldn't do it the hard way working with some trusted scouts in short term to identify some needed targets. Hand it off to a (new) head coach the responsibility... The responsibility and power involved that should be associated with a head coach in this so called modernized recruitment approach.
Same DoF doesn't have experience in working with so called infrastructure. Does Everton look like they have the same infrastructure like Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea, Brighton... to you? This guy worked with Moyes who scouted some players himself ffs. And Everton recruitment is not suffering because they lost this awesome Murtough. Everton structure was dinosaur. Everton under Moyes looked decent because they deals with different market, and their recruitment. Not because their awesome infrastructure or some shite.
Previously I hold back my opnion, thinking perhaps, this guy has been spending time learning something new while being with us. Evidently from this window, it's the same shite that you expect from Everton model under Moyes. This guy is better off with Moyes type of manager who scout for and buy his players, while this guy seems just try to build offices, create positions and hire name people with CV to boast about through clubs contact to some gullible fans.
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Sorry, this is all pathetic excuses. We have literally hundreds of scouts. Murtough has been at the club for years. Its not that hard to get a list of promising players or sound out agents well in advance. FOr all his faults Ralf provided some targets and I am sure could have provided more. The club chose to ditch him. Its a shambles and none of them, including Murtough and Fletcher, have any experience. None. In fact Murtough has negative experience as he has seen is Woodward flounce around Europe like a Roman emperor carrying gifts.
Murtough needs to be sacked NOW.
No question about it.
Fletcher probably should get sacked too, because he's pretty much a blank wall not offering anything. If not sacked, Fletcher should get a heavy demotion. I mean, he offers absolutely nothing.
No question about it.
Fletcher probably should get sacked too, because he's pretty much a blank wall not offering anything. If not sacked, Fletcher should get a heavy demotion. I mean, he offers absolutely nothing.
I'm partially in agreement with this perspective. In an ideal scenario, a club will have a clear vision for what kind of football it wants to play. It then lines up its managers and players to fit in with that vision, with the players and, to a lesser extent, the manager all being interchangeable without changing that vision. The DOF executes all of that.
Finding a manager is relatively easy, since there's a small pool of them at any given time. In this case I think ETH is a fine pick. Players are harder, since there's so many out there, and so many variables to consider. Bearing in mind ability, mindset, experience, chemistry, price, salary, their ambitions, availability and competition, it isnt as simple as filtering a spreadsheet from best to worst and starting at the top. There are thousands of players that we could buy, I don't expect the club to have this sorted out and come up with a clean plan of action so soon. This is something that needs a lot more behind - not least it needs the input of a manager who has worked with his players in the crucible of a real season.
What has worried me about this transfer window though is that they're below even the modest level of expectations that I had. I don't expect to have the full (ahem) cultural reboot completed yet, but I do expect the club to be able to provide a few decent bodies to supplement the squad where needed. It started ok, but stalled. The fact that we're barely 2 weeks to go, with most decent midfield and striking options already moved elsewhere, and we're still fishing round for overpriced unloved players like Rabiot or making total moonshots like Casemiro & Felix tells me they're making it up on the fly. They either had no interim plan, or it fell apart a long time ago.
I also think the Ronaldo situation has been handled terribly. Given that Ronaldo was never a good fit for ETH, and that Ronaldo could obviously make it impossible for us to keep him, it made sense for him to go early. We should have given the green light ages ago so that more clubs could weigh up a move, sort it out before the season started, and let us plan for his replacement.
I'm prepared to hold judgment on the long term stuff. We'd expect to see the first fruits of that next summer. But I think its fair to say that, unless he pulls a rabbit from the hat, he's bodged the first test, and that doesn't bode well for the harder job.
If Arnold is being sincere about hiring the best and staying the feck out of the football decisions, he can cast a wide net, interview people, hire someone of the caliber of Monchi, Edwards or Rangnick and let them populate everything else on the football side.
100% agree. Whilst the current situation with the transfer market is dire, its hardly surprising considering the dysfunctional organisation that was led by Woodward and is now just under the reign of Arnold.
Without a lot of the inside information, it would be pre-mature slag off the new regime as a disaster.
I always assume these people are smart and capable until proven otherwise. It's complex stuff they are trying to do -- and without knowing the org chart, (their respective responsibilities of the personnel), and financials, the annual objectives set out by the CEO etc, it's naive to make bombastic judgements.
Nah, Woodward was absolutely shocking. He's given out so many ridiculous contracts to players that have continuously failed us. He did a terrible job and didn't even get sacked. His failings has left us with a bunch of unsellable players.
Arnold and Murtough have been bad, though. We have targeted a bunch of random players that aren't good enough. Now we seem to be really desperate and going for players that Rangnick warned us about not going for any more. At least they pulled out from Rabiot and didn't give him another stupid contract that we'd regret immediately.
Regarding RR -- I think he brunt his bridges a couple of months into his term. Or he overhyped up his expectations & deliverables and proceeded to fail to deliver. As a result he lost all credibility.
Plus he was a PR disaster. It felt like he was playing to his audience like he was in the Youtube video where he was trying to show he was the smartest guy in the room.
At his level, he doesn't need to or should not do to. You don't see Pep, Klopp or Conte or Tuchel, never mind Moyes explaining tactics in public.
You mirror this at your own workplace especially if it is a public listed company and not some small shop. Words and messages have consequences for any publically traded company. You need to be very selective in your choice of words. Saying that we need to replace 10 players and need open heart surgery is something that needs to be said in private. Not in public especially a company that is listed. (I have had to face the press, print, TV/radio etc and you have to be trained/briefed on what you can say and not say.) It affects the shareholder's value.
It may have reflected his nativity there. But it's a very schoolboy error -- washing dirty launder in public.
Woodward/Arnold must have seen too many of these naive mistakes that they could see this being a regular occurrence.
Obviously we don't know what's going on internally, but I do wonder if SAF and Gill were brought in to advise because it was starting to look apparent that we were basically planless deep into the window.
Woodward never hung the manager he just appointed out to dry in the first summer.
Again not saying he wasn't terrible, but even he understood the need to "appear" to back the manager at the very least in the first summer
Why? I don't get why the Glazers would not want someone spending their money who knows what they are doing? Under Woodward we had the highest net spend in the league, we have one of the highest wage bills in world football, so it's not like the Glazers aren't spending they are, we have spent more then enough to be competing for leagues and champions leagues.... so why would they not want someone who knows how to spend all this money? It would likely mean they would maybe even have to spend fewer cos we didn't need to rebuild every summer, and you know may actually make some money on outgoing transfers, so the Glazers would make more money. So it's 100% in their best interests.
Harking back to the past and especially Fergie is part of the problem. The world and especially football management has moved on
It remains a mystery, I can only think its a mixture of ignorance, stupidity and the fact they have made so much money from Utd it doesnt really matter. Plus they also seem to want to have the final say on things, rather than letting the professionals (assuming we had any) do their jobs.
Because every summer they let it slip that Joel Glazer is the DOF and he signs off on every deal
He signed Fellaini for Moyes on Aug 31st.
He did not appoint Moyes, read my post correctly
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