The Impossible Draft

Nah, Scirea is the real MVP here shocking that he made it down to me.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
This is just a red herring and not my actual point. You either intentionally misunderstood or I just didn't explain well. Either way, I'm not going down this strawman route so just drop it
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Nah I just think your actual point has been pointless for a while. Sure lets drop it.

Just couldnt see Cruyff being insulted by stooping him down to fecking Zico's level
 
Brwned said:
I don't understand why people are so unwilling to entertain the discussion when the facts speak for themselves. He suffered an embarrassment I can't remember any of the other players suffering. Can you remember any of them being dropped? It's entirely possible I'm overlooking players but bringing up Charlton in '62 is just obfuscation. And that's what I find odd about Zico. People like to find excuses for him.
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Then you are clearly biased or just rating your memory above everyone else's memory.

CR2010, Messi2010, DiStefano1958 and Maradona1982 were all just as big disappointments and embarrassments and are remembered that way among all the football fans I know from Germany to Brazil, Italy to Argentina, Scotland to El Salvador as massive failures horrible touranments (or the biggest failure- Di Stefano- to even make the tournament) for all the players. maybe not in your age group in your geographic area but certainly in other parts of the world which you seem to just disrespect.

You have not made a single objective argument for why Zico1978 is worse than the four tournaments for the other GOATs I mentioned. Nothing except for your personal feelings and your subjective impression.

The statistics do not back you up - statistically Zico was on par to all four of those (and objectively clearly superior to Di Stefano 1958 as he failed to even qualify).

And when we look at why Zico and Falcão were both benched not for their performances but for political and biased reasons which you continually ignore.
 
idmanager said:
Nah I just think your actual point has been pointless for a while. Sure lets drop it.

Just couldnt see Cruyff being insulted by stooping him down to fecking Zico's level
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then you missed the point, cheers
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Then you are clearly biased.

CR2010, Messi2010, DiStefano1958 and Maradona1982 were all just as big disappointments and embarrassments and are remembered that way among all the football fans I know from Germany to Brazil, Italy to Argentina, Scotland to El Salvador as massive failures horrible touranments (or failure to even make the tournament) for all the players. maybe not in your age group in your geographic area but certainly in other parts of the world which you seem to just disrespect.

You have not made a single objective argument for why Zico1978 is worse than the four tournaments for the other GOATs I mentioned. Nothing except for your personal feelings and your subjective impression.

The statistics do not back you up - statistically Zico was on par to all four of those (and objectively clearly superior to Di Stefano 1958 as he failed to even qualify).

And when we look at why Zico and Falcão were both benched not for their performances but for political and biased reasons which you continually ignore.
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You see, the thing that doesn't make sense about what you're saying is I haven't made a subjective argument. I haven't commented on his performances and how they compare to Messi in 2010. If you think that's what I'm doing then you've just misunderstood. Apologies for the confusion.

I've just stated a set of facts which are, as far as I can tell, unique to Zico and yet never acknowledged. If you can think of examples for the other players I think it'd be really interesting to hear. Otherwise this is just you being dismissive of a perfectly reasonable point and not worth anyone reading.
 
Brwned said:
You see, the thing that doesn't make sense about what you're saying is I haven't made a subjective argument. I haven't commented on his performances and how they compare to Messi in 2010. I've just stated a set of facts which are, as far as I can tell, unique to Zico and yet never acknowledged. If you can think of examples for the other players I think it'd be really interesting to hear. Otherwise this is just you being dismissive of a perfectly reasonable point and not worth anyone reading.
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You are trying to reduce everything to the one single fact that Zico was benched. I already explained how and why that happened and it had nothing to do with Zico's performances. Also you are not acknowledging Falcão was also unjustly benched which gives more weight to the political nature. You are ignoring the entire context and laser focusing on this one single thing (Zico was bench OMG) and implying that instantly makes Zico1978 worse than all the others including Di Stefano1958 who failed to even qualify.

So let's examine your claim before Bra-Swi starts.

Here are the first two matches in that WC and the ratings from France Football:
WIOtoA1.jpg



FL0eNlb.jpg


After this he was benched but its clearly not because of his performances. If it wasn't for a ref mistake he would have been 1 goals in the first two matches at this point. So he wasn't benched and Falcão neglected due to performances but preferences

Then Coutinho goes overly defensive.

"Claudio Coutinho, however, cowarded. Instead of playing forward, he played defensively. He put Chicão in the midfield, instead of Zico, to give more physical force to the team (and so doing, he cut the talent). Argentina, conscious of their limitations, dared not being too offensive, either.
The match ended with the only result possible: 0 x 0."

http://www.v-brazil.com/world-cup/history/1978-Argentina.php

So really just laser focusing on this one pedantic point that he was "benched" is meaningless. It doesn't really give a full understanding.


Objectively, when we look at this context and statistics, Zico1978 is not objectively any worse than the other four tournaments and DiStefano1958 still stands out as the biggest failure of any GOAT in any WC year
 
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Neymar isn't fully fit at the moment and hasn't fully recovered but he definitely deserves his spot in this draft amongst the Greatest!
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
You are trying to reduce everything to the one single fact that Zico was benched. I already explained how and why that happened and it had nothing to do with Zico's performances. Also you are not acknowledging Falcão was also unjustly benched which gives more weight to the political nature. You are ignoring the entire context and laser focusing on this one single thing (Zico was bench OMG) and implying that instantly makes Zico1978 worse than all the others including Di Stefano1958 who failed to even qualify.
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Dude, I just told you I wasn't comparing Zico in 1978 to Maradona in 1982, Messi in 2010 or di Stéfano in 1958. If you want to argue with yourself over that, feel free. But that isn't what I was talking about.
 
Brwned said:
Dude, I just told you I wasn't comparing Zico in 1978 to Maradona in 1982, Messi in 2010 or di Stéfano in 1958. If you want to argue with yourself over that, feel free. But that isn't what I was talking about.
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yeah you just want to focus on one single meaningless pedantic point which is irrelevant because all the other greats except Pele have had just as poor tournament years as Zico 1978.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
yeah you just want to focus on one single meaningless pedantic point which is irrelevant because all the other greats except Pele have had just as poor tournament years as Zico 1978.
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It's not that I want to focus on it. It's that it was my entire point from the beginning. At no point was I ever comparing Zico in 1978 to any other player. I had no interest in petty point scoring. Just look back at how this started and you'll see that.

Just to clarify, my point was really simple. Throughout generations of football and across the globe, all sorts of great players have been subjected to the whims of politics and tactics and ideologies and all of that. The footballing gods were never subjected to those whims, they were on a different level. Political leaders and hard headed managers were forced to build their team around them, one way or another. Zico was not considered to be on that level. He was "just" an amazing footballer.
 
Brwned said:
It's not that I want to focus on it. It's that it was my entire point from the beginning. At no point was I ever comparing Zico in 1978 to any other player. I had no interest in petty point scoring. Just look back at how this started and you'll see that.

Just to clarify, my point was really simple. Throughout generations of football and across the globe, all sorts of great players have been subjected to the whims of politics and tactics and ideologies and all of that. The footballing gods were never subjected to those whims, they were on a different level. Political leaders and hard headed managers were forced to build their team around them, one way or another. Zico was not considered to be on that level. He was "just" an amazing footballer.
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Ok I am going to leave your posts here to summarize because I feel like you keep moving goalposts.

Here are few of your first posts:

Brwned said:
I think his reputation has grown a lot on here over the years. I wouldn't put clear daylight between Puskas and Charlton but I would between those two and Zico, personally. What's your take on his performances in '78?
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Brwned said:
Entirely reasonable. Still, I'm curious to hear your take on Zico in '78 (or '86). You can say '82 was a tragedy but I think it's harder to explain away the others.
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Brwned said:
I would actually draw more of a comparison to Zico in '86 here. Clearly one of the better players in a not very impressive team. Zico in '78 for me is a story that none of the other elite players really have, and I don't think it's one I've ever seen a convincing explanation for. He has a lot of excuses put forward for him.
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So just to clarify, you were comparing him to other players here and you did bring up 1986 which is outside what you claim was the entire point. You even go so far as to say "clear daylight" which is a strong subjective comparison.
Zico was under a serious injury in '86 which I think is why you dropped that angle later but you certainly did bring it up. Based on these first few posts its definitely fair to bring up other poor tournaments of other greats (or the failure to even qualify).

Then I provided you an explanation that has been well known for a long time. Coutinho was a basicallya pawn of the military dictatorship in 1978 that was dictating terms to the Brazilian football federation. This would end up changing 1979-80 but '78 the Brazilian federation was still being micromanaged by non-footballing military people.

You later say a few things that are demonstrably untrue. You said Zico in 1978 didn't "register with anyone". All due respect but you weren't even alive in the early 1980s so who are you to declare what registered with "anyone" around the world?
Its just not true. As a kid in the early 1980s I even heard basic stories about how Zico was screwed and as I got older those stories came into more focus.

As the France Football ratings show Zico did not have poor performances. he was unjustly screwed by ref Clive Thomas and Coutinho was playing an overly defensive system that the military wanted.You can say it was a unique set of circumstances. Very true. But the way you spin it leaves out a lot of contex. Pele, Cruyff, even Di Stefano under Franco didn't have a micromanaging military dictating policy to the football federation based on how they wanted perception to the general public of an organized and militant football system that reflected positively on the military leaders. I mean players like Batista and Chicão were preferred over Falcão, Zico and often Cerezo. So these decisions were not the result of football quality but politics that affected the micromanagement of the football team.

No maybe all these extra facts and context doesn't qualify as "convincing" for you and you just want to reduce it all to "Zico was benched". But I think the full explanation of the facts surrounding the 1978 Brazil NT do not lead to the conclusion that Zico's performances were worse than the WC years of any number of other players.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Ok I am going to leave your posts here to summarize because I feel like you keep moving goalposts.

Here are few of your first posts:

So just to clarify, you were comparing him to other players here and you did bring up 1986 which is outside what you claim was the entire point. You even go so far as to say "clear daylight" which is a strong subjective comparison.
Zico was under a serious injury in '86 which I think is why you dropped that angle later but you certainly did bring it up. Based on these first few posts its definitely fair to bring up other poor tournaments of other greats (or the failure to even qualify).

Then I provided you an explanation that has been well known for a long time. Coutinho was a basicallya pawn of the military dictatorship in 1978 that was dictating terms to the Brazilian football federation. This would end up changing 1979-80 but '78 the Brazilian federation was still being micromanaged by non-footballing military people.

You later say a few things that are demonstrably untrue. You said Zico in 1978 didn't "register with anyone". All due respect but you weren't even alive in the early 1980s so who are you to declare what registered with "anyone" around the world?
Its just not true. As a kid in the early 1980s I even heard basic stories about how Zico was screwed and as I got older those stories came into more focus.

As the France Football ratings show Zico did not have poor performances. he was unjustly screwed by ref Clive Thomas and Coutinho was playing an overly defensive system that the military wanted.You can say it was a unique set of circumstances. Very true. But the way you spin it leaves out a lot of contex. Pele, Cruyff, even Di Stefano under Franco didn't have a micromanaging military dictating policy to the football federation based on how they wanted perception to the general public of an organized and militant football system that reflected positively on the military leaders. I mean players like Batista and Chicão were preferred over Falcão, Zico and often Cerezo. So these decisions were not the result of football quality but politics that affected the micromanagement of the football team.

No maybe all these extra facts and context doesn't qualify as "convincing" for you and you just want to reduce it all to "Zico was benched". But I think the full explanation of the facts surrounding the 1978 Brazil NT do not lead to the conclusion that Zico's performances were worse than the WC years of any number of other players.
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Sorry man, what you're hearing and what I'm saying are two different things. Part of that is down to my lack of clarity, clearly. I don't know what the other parts are, but I don't care enough to find out. I'll just edit my last statement, for absolute clarity, just so you understand. "At no point was I ever comparing Zico in 1978 to any other player['s performances in any other international tournament, until you mentioned Charlton, at which point I thought it would be impolite to ignore]". I think the fact I have to clarify that statement shows how the tone of the conversation has been corrupted, as sadly these happens in these draft threads. It all becomes very serious and personal. And by anyone, I meant "anyone on here", as a follow-up to my first point that his reputation has grown on here over time. No more, no less. Enjoy the match.
 
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@Brwned You are speaking to the equivalent of Cal? with Cristiano when it comes to Brazil 82 :wenger:
 
Ohhhhhhhhh. My bad entirely! Sorry for polluting the thread with nonsense folks...
 
Brwned said:
Yeah I don't think Zico in '78 has actually registered with anyone. Comparing him to Maradona 4 years later is bizarre to me.

Zico was totally irrelevant in '78. This was Zico aged 25, after 4 seasons of scoring 30+ goals - it's him entering his peak. And it's a team starved of attacking quality in every possible way, crying out for an elite player to knit that team together. And it's not remotely an exaggeration to call him irrelevant. They drew their first two games in the World Cup, scoring just one goal. After that Zico was dropped from the team and they won their next 2 games and drew against the eventual winners, Argentina. He came back into the team against Poland, but got injured when it was 0-0 and they went on to win yet another game. And finally he was left on the bench entirely for their 3rd place play-off.

In summary, they were a better team without Zico than with him and they eventually took the decision to drop him entirely. Imagine Cruyff or di Stéfano or Péle being irrelevant for their teams. It didn't happen for a reason. What people are talking about is poor performances at an individual or team level, which almost no elite player has avoided. Being irrelevant is something else entirely.
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Sorry for not being able to respond earlier, but just to put up a few thoughts.

Maradona was as irrelevant in 82' - breaking the world transfer record at the time, settled in Barcelona and WC at Spanish soil. He scored a brace against Hungary, which was a pretty meh side and was anonymous in the second phase - sent off against Brazil and marked out by Gentile against Italy. Had a bad opening game against Belguim as well. Let's not pretend there weren't expectations of him at that tournament either.

Couple of quotes on that performance:

Against Belguim:
Argentina arrived in Spain as reigning champions and kicked off their defence of the trophy in the Camp Nou, Maradona’s new home. After the crushing disappointment of missing out on a place in Menotti’s 1978 tournament-winning team, Maradona was desperate to make an impact in Europe, however a below-par performance by the Argentines saw them lose the opening game 1-0 to Belgium.
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Against El Salvador
Argentina won the game 2-0, with the diminutive number 10 showing only occasional glimpses of his ability. A free-kick exquisitely bent over the wall and into the side-netting was the closest he came to scoring. He would certainly need to be more effective in the second round, which consisted of a mini group against South American rivals Brazil, who were playing the tournament like it was an exhibition (think Harlem Globetrotters playing football).
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vs Italy
From the first minute, Italy targeted Maradona, Enzo Bearzot gave ****** the task of man-marking him. The Juve defender was the archetypal pantomime villain, with dark hair and of Middle Eastern origin. To round off the look, a thick moustache menacingly adorned his top lip. His team-mates nicknamed him ****** due to being born in Libya. Had it been Christmas, in a theatre you would have shouted, ”he’s behind you”, but this was the World Cup and Maradona knew very well he was behind him.

Years later, the Italian defender gave an interview where he commented: “I studied him for two days, watching videos and realising there was a strategy I could use against him. That was to make sure he was so well marked that he couldn’t get the ball from his team-mates, because once he has possession that’s when he becomes a problem.”

Maradona was followed all over the pitch by ****** for 90 minutes, during which he endured foul after foul. At one point ***** went straight through the back of Maradona as he received the ball, which resulted in no caution. The ball was played into Maradona’s feet but, before he gained possession, ***** produced a stiff arm across the face, leaving the playmaker in a crumpled heap. Another free-kick to Argentina and another let-off for the pantomime villain.

On 35 minutes, Maradona was booked for protesting too strongly to the referee after another x-rated challenge had gone unpunished.

In the second half, Bearzot’s men visibly grew in confidence as their perfect – if crude – plan was having a demoralising effect on Maradona and the rest of the Argentine team. Two goals within 10 minutes by ***** and ***** gave the Azzurri an unassailable lead. Argentine captain Daniel Passarella pulled a goal back with seven minutes to go, only for midfielder ***** to be sent off a minute later for Argentina. Catenaccio had won the day.
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vs Brazil
As the two teams walked onto the pitch, there amongst all the anticipation and fervour were the two number 10s, Maradona and Zico. I was a mercenary to skills and tricks. This game would determine whose name I would claim in the playground during the first break on Monday, and for the remainder of the World Cup.

The game was played in a far more languid style than the previous staccato encounter with the Italians and their dark arts. Both sides were happy to trade attacks, though for all the skill and creativity, the score was only 1-0 at half-time – a Zico tap-in after ***** had sent a wicked, swerving 35-yard free-kick crashing into the underside of the Argentine crossbar. It looked like the name would remain the same on Monday.

In the second half, the game started to get stretched. Maradona was seeing more of the ball and starting to make inroads to the Brazilian defence, with close control and an electric change of pace. It was this type of movement that allowed him to slip the ball past the Brazilian left-back, Júnior, who recovered and lunged at Maradona as he went into the area. The ball wasn’t even within playing distance when the challenge came in. The referee gave a corner; Maradona, incredulous at the decision, did a backwards roll into a handstand and onto his feet, then screamed at the referee at the injustice.

As the second half wore on, Brazil took a stranglehold on the game. A rare far post header by ***** put Brazil 2-0 up, then Zico played a pass which took out four Argentines. The aforementioned left-back, Júnior, was the furthest forward, and he slipped the ball first time past the advancing *****.

Frustration and tempers reached boiling point. On 85 minutes, Maradona clipped a ball into *****; ***** raised his foot and caught the midfielder on the side of his head with his studs. Commentator John Helm summed up things best: “A kick on the head there, following that Maradona managed to put a little kick in on *****, and he’s off. That is the end of Diego Maradona’s World Cup. Well, this is sensational, the world’s greatest player by repute has been sent off. He lashed out at ***** there, after the original offence by the Brazilian substitute.”

Maradona slowly walked toward the touchline. The giant Argentine defender, *****, pulled him into his chest, ruffled his hair and kissed him on the head, like a parent calling their disconsolate child in from playing out, while their friends carried on having fun.

Helm continued: “Diego Maradona looked almost in tears there; he’s being roundly booed here in Barcelona. What a tragic end to Maradona’s World Cup. He’s about to come and play in Barcelona, but this must be the most tragic moment of his career so far.”

Maradona crossed the touchline, making the sign of the cross, kissing the small silver crucifix around his neck and then looking up to the heavens. What had I been thinking? How could this man ever replace Zico in my affections?

And so he was gone. With a brutal kick to Batista’s midriff, Maradona vanished from my mind for another four years. His name destined never to be used at Overdale County Primary.
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So even the best names in history have odd bad tournaments from time to time, if that well, isn't Pele :)

As for Zico 78, think @oneniltothearsenal put it really well.
 
Ecstatic said:
Let's say, each of us defends his star player: Enigma/Zico versus Gio/Zidane versus Pnut/Puskas vs Bepo/Charlton :p
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Nah, I'm fine with Zico being with the elite tier mate. Not going to argue who is the best as to me it's personal preference. I'll make sure he receives a proper appreciation and a setup to get the best of him, apart from that, have no problem with each of the drafters promoting their guy as the top dog :)
 
Enigma_87 said:
So even the best names in history have odd bad tournaments from time to time, if that well, isn't Pele :)

As for Zico 78, think @oneniltothearsenal put it really well.
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And Baggio :). Scored the goal of the tournament in 1990, carried Italy to the final in 1994, and turned in some cracking performances with very limited minutes in 1998.
 
Brwned said:
Sorry man, what you're hearing and what I'm saying are two different things. Part of that is down to my lack of clarity, clearly. I don't know what the other parts are, but I don't care enough to find out. I'll just edit my last statement, for absolute clarity, just so you understand. "At no point was I ever comparing Zico in 1978 to any other player['s performances in any other international tournament, until you mentioned Charlton, at which point I thought it would be impolite to ignore]". I think the fact I have to clarify that statement shows how the tone of the conversation has been corrupted, as sadly these happens in these draft threads. It all becomes very serious and personal. And by anyone, I meant "anyone on here", as a follow-up to my first point that his reputation has grown on here over time. No more, no less. Enjoy the match.
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Not sure how. You said you rated Charlton and Puskas with clear daylight above Zico then brought up 78 and 86. I thought it was fair to bring up more context and facts surrounding the military dictatorship in 78 that was based not on merit and the fact he was injured in 86. That was to show that Zico in 78 was not really any worse than any number of other WC years from other Top 10 players.

Anyway I definitely regret not selecting and bequeathing you Charlton as that seems appropriate now !
 
Enigma_87 said:
Sorry for not being able to respond earlier, but just to put up a few thoughts.

Maradona was as irrelevant in 82' - breaking the world transfer record at the time, settled in Barcelona and WC at Spanish soil. He scored a brace against Hungary, which was a pretty meh side and was anonymous in the second phase - sent off against Brazil and marked out by Gentile against Italy. Had a bad opening game against Belguim as well. Let's not pretend there weren't expectations of him at that tournament either.

Couple of quotes on that performance:

Against Belguim:


Against El Salvador


vs Italy

vs Brazil


So even the best names in history have odd bad tournaments from time to time, if that well, isn't Pele :)

As for Zico 78, think @oneniltothearsenal put it really well.
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Oh yeah totally, Maradona wasn't good in 1982 and Messi wasn't good in 2010. But they were still one of the centre pieces of their attacking setup, like every other elite player was in every major tournament. I find it strange that people find that comparable to Zico in 1978 but hey ho.
 
So the one thing we can all agree on is Pele is the man :drool:
 
Pat_Mustard said:
And Baggio :). Scored the goal of the tournament in 1990, carried Italy to the final in 1994, and turned in some cracking performances with very limited minutes in 1998.
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yeah, totally! And out of the GOAT's Beckenbauer. Can't really remember him having a bad game in 3 straight tournaments. :eek:
 
Brwned said:
Oh yeah totally, Maradona wasn't good in 1982 and Messi wasn't good in 2010. But they were still one of the centre pieces of their attacking setup, like every other elite player was in every major tournament. I find it strange that people find that comparable to Zico in 1978 but hey ho.
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Yeah, we can discuss it in the match threads mate, not to hijack this one. But generally don't mind the discussion, even though I disagree with some parts of it.

2mufc0 said:
So the one thing we can all agree on is Pele is the man :drool:
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no arguments there. :drool:
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I don't think Zico at his peak was any better than Baggio. There could be some bias in that statement, but not much, esp for NT.

Puskas, Charlton and Baggio should be rated higher than Zico.
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Trying not to bite, but since I've picked him. :D

If you consider club careers, absolutely no chance that.

Zico scored over 500 goals, not being a striker and set up many more.

Just to put it in perspective. He was signed by Italian minions at the time Udinese(they were for first time in Seria A since 2 decades), when the era of Catenaccio was booming and without need of adaptation scored 19 goals in 24 games in his first season.

No other player in the 80's scored more than 19 goals in a single season in Seria A, but Platini in the same season - 20 (although in 28 games) - not even van Basten or Maradona.

Zico had the best goal/games ratio of all the stars during the time it was hardest to put the ball behind the net, playing for a really underwhelming side.

Zico also scored against all top sides - brace against Milan with Baresi in it, against Juve, Inter, Roma, Lazio, etc.
 
tumblr_m3fbvklNKr1qfxktpo1_1280.jpg



Enigma: (1) Zico (2) G. Batistuta (3) P. Nedvěd (4) D. Santos (5) A. Shesternyov (6) Santamaria (7) Kalle

P-Nut0712: (1) F. Puskas (2) L. Yashin (3) J. Tigana (4) J. Charles (5) B. Bremner (6) J. Barnes (7) M. Ramos

Gio: (1) P. R. Falcão (2) Z. Zidane (3) Z. Czibor (4) L. Kubala (5) A. Brehme (6) N. Gonçalves (7) D. Law

Charly: (1) D. Džajić (2) S. Kocsis (3) A. Nesta (4) W. van Hanegem (5) A. Demyanenko (6). R. Dasayev

Pat Mustard: (1) Romario (2) J. Bozsik (3) G. Facchetti (4) D. Edwards (5) D. Godin (6) V. Bezsonovq

Brwned: (1) B. Moore (2) G. Meazza (3) M. Coluna (4) I. Netto (5) M. Amoros (6) Julinho

2mufc0: (1) G. Scirea (2) R. Gullit (3) O. Varela (4) L. Junior (5) G. Nordahl (6) Zizinho

MJJ: (1) R. Baggio (2) G. Lato (3) N. Hidegkuti (4) S. Marzolini (5) E. Ocwirk (6) L. Monti

Tuppet: (1) D. Passarella (2) J. Masopust (3) O. Blokhin (4) L. Riva (5) K. H. Schnellinger (6) T. Finney

Prath92: (1) B. Robson (2) V. Voronin (3) D. Bergkamp (4) J. Zanetti (5) O. Ruggeri (6) M. Bossis

Ecstatic: (1) U. Seeler (2) N. Santos (3) L. Figo (4) Neymar (5) G. Bergomi (6) D. McGrain

Indnyc: (1) L. Thuram (2) R. Krol (3) D. Da Guia 4) A. Pedernera (5) J. Fontaine (6) E. Cantona

Sjor / Jim Beam: (1) B. Charlton (2) H. Chumpitaz (3) H. Stoichkov (4) P. Elkjaer (5) B. Schuster (6) B. Vogts

Idmanager: (1) F. Gento (2) S. Matthews (3) M. Tresor (4) K.H. Forster (5) E. Davids (6) T. Cubillas

Skizzo: (1) Sócrates (2) P. McGrath (3) M. Sammer (4) C. A. Torres (5) R. Van Nistelrooy (6) J. M. Moreno

Moby: (1) R. Keane (2) J. Neeskens (3) Rivellino (4) Jairzinho (5) J. Bican (6) E. Francescoli

@Charly
 
Enigma_87 said:
Trying not to bite, but since I've picked him. :D

If you consider club careers, absolutely no chance that.

Zico scored over 500 goals, not being a striker and set up many more.

Just to put it in perspective. He was signed by Italian minions at the time Udinese(they were for first time in Seria A since 2 decades), when the era of Catenaccio was booming and without need of adaptation scored 19 goals in 24 games in his first season.

No other player in the 80's scored more than 19 goals in a single season in Seria A, but Platini in the same season - 20 (although in 28 games) - not even van Basten or Maradona.

Zico had the best goal/games ratio of all the stars during the time it was hardest to put the ball behind the net, playing for a really underwhelming side.

Zico also scored against all top sides - brace against Milan with Baresi in it, against Juve, Inter, Roma, Lazio, etc.
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Baggios teams fared better than Zicos though. Be it the Fiorentina or Bresica, despite not having a stellar cast Baggio elevates his team far more than Zico does.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Baggios teams fared better than Zicos though. Be it the Fiorentina or Bresica, despite not having a stellar cast Baggio elevates his team far more than Zico does.
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I am not sure how you are coming to that conclusion. When Zico played for Flamengo, Flamengo had never won the Campeonato Brasileiro Série A previously (1964 they were runner-up and that is closest they ever got).
Internacional with Falcão and Figueroa were probably the most dominant side with many other strong sides.
Flamengo won Campeonato Brasileiro Série A three times with Zico (80,82,83). Additionally they won the Copa Libertadores which Brazilian sides have traditionally struggled in due to the intense long campaign for the Brazilian league system at the time. In fact most Brazilian sides didn't have the time to worry about international competitions because the league system was so intense. Then Flamengo dissected the much heralded Liverpool side of Paisley and Souness

Its a shame that they didn't track assists then because Zico regularly had tonnes of assists. His assist record would be insane if they tracked it and really show how good he was. In 1979 during the full season of all competitions for Flamengo Zico had 81 goals! Then in 1980 they signed striker Nunes, and Zico started giving Nunes a huge amount of assists while still maintaining a very strong scoring record (53 in '80 and 59 in '82). I really don't know how any player could have elevated that Flamengo side more through teamwork and teamplay than Zico. He was remarkably unselfish tallying goals and assists while leading a team that never won the top league to 3 league wins and a Copa Libertadore (rare for Brazil) and dominating the top team in Europe at the time.
 
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Enigma: (1) Zico (2) G. Batistuta (3) P. Nedvěd (4) D. Santos (5) A. Shesternyov (6) Santamaria (7) Kalle

P-Nut0712: (1) F. Puskas (2) L. Yashin (3) J. Tigana (4) J. Charles (5) B. Bremner (6) J. Barnes (7) M. Ramos

Gio: (1) P. R. Falcão (2) Z. Zidane (3) Z. Czibor (4) L. Kubala (5) A. Brehme (6) N. Gonçalves (7) D. Law

Charly: (1) D. Džajić (2) S. Kocsis (3) A. Nesta (4) W. van Hanegem (5) A. Demyanenko (6). R. Dasayev (7) T. Silva

Pat Mustard: (1) Romario (2) J. Bozsik (3) G. Facchetti (4) D. Edwards (5) D. Godin (6) V. Bezsonovq

Brwned: (1) B. Moore (2) G. Meazza (3) M. Coluna (4) I. Netto (5) M. Amoros (6) Julinho

2mufc0: (1) G. Scirea (2) R. Gullit (3) O. Varela (4) L. Junior (5) G. Nordahl (6) Zizinho

MJJ: (1) R. Baggio (2) G. Lato (3) N. Hidegkuti (4) S. Marzolini (5) E. Ocwirk (6) L. Monti

Tuppet: (1) D. Passarella (2) J. Masopust (3) O. Blokhin (4) L. Riva (5) K. H. Schnellinger (6) T. Finney

Prath92: (1) B. Robson (2) V. Voronin (3) D. Bergkamp (4) J. Zanetti (5) O. Ruggeri (6) M. Bossis

Ecstatic: (1) U. Seeler (2) N. Santos (3) L. Figo (4) Neymar (5) G. Bergomi (6) D. McGrain

Indnyc: (1) L. Thuram (2) R. Krol (3) D. Da Guia 4) A. Pedernera (5) J. Fontaine (6) E. Cantona

Sjor / Jim Beam: (1) B. Charlton (2) H. Chumpitaz (3) H. Stoichkov (4) P. Elkjaer (5) B. Schuster (6) B. Vogts

Idmanager: (1) F. Gento (2) S. Matthews (3) M. Tresor (4) K.H. Forster (5) E. Davids (6) T. Cubillas

Skizzo: (1) Sócrates (2) P. McGrath (3) M. Sammer (4) C. A. Torres (5) R. Van Nistelrooy (6) J. M. Moreno

Moby: (1) R. Keane (2) J. Neeskens (3) Rivellino (4) Jairzinho (5) J. Bican (6) E. Francescoli

@Pat_Mustard
 
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