The Impossible Draft

Sir Bobby actually had a good 1962 world cup from out left and an impressive 1970 WC.

Watched some 1970 footage recently and he actually played as an inside right rather than left.

He has had good outings in all 3 editions. No question about it.
 
Brwned said:
I would actually draw more of a comparison to Zico in '86 here. Clearly one of the better players in a not very impressive team. Zico in '78 for me is a story that none of the other elite players really have, and I don't think it's one I've ever seen a convincing explanation for. He has a lot of excuses put forward for him.
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Uh off top of my head before I get back to Mexico-Germany


Messi and Ronaldo in 2010
Maradona in 1982 not much better than Zico in 78
Charlton in 62 was probably same level
Rivellino in 74 was disappointing
Van Basten has never scored in a World Cup finals, Gullit never had a good WC

If you hold Zico being injured in 1986 still as an example then Zidane in 2002 added to the list as well as Ronaldo 2014
What was Di Stefano's best World Cup?

I really don't think you have a point here at all.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
What was Di Stefano's best World Cup? Unmatched ones at that.

I really don't think you have a point here at all.
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Err Di Stefano has European credentials?

Zico while being an all time great surely has a bad trophy wise resume.

Probably the only South American GOAT without any major honors.

Even if you take away him not moving to Europe, he never won a Copa America too.

I would at best rate him equally with Charlton. Not an inch above him.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Uh off top of my head before I get back to Mexico-Germany


Messi and Ronaldo in 2010
Maradona in 1982 not much better than Zico in 78
Charlton in 62 was probably same level
Rivellino in 74 was disappointing
Van Basten has never scored in a World Cup finals, Gullit never had a good WC

If you hold Zico being injured in 1986 still as an example then Zidane in 2002 added to the list as well as Ronaldo 2014
What was Di Stefano's best World Cup?

I really don't think you have a point here at all.
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Yeah so I wouldn't bother involving Messi or Ronaldo in any of these discussions for obvious reasons. And I definitely wouldn't include the two Dutchmen or Rivelino in this discussion of elite players - we were talking about Cruyff and co.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here, though. What do you remember of Zico in '78?
 
also if you want to real problem with 78 brazil it was the manager coutinho and the tactics
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Uh off top of my head before I get back to Mexico-Germany


Messi and Ronaldo in 2010
Maradona in 1982 not much better than Zico in 78
Charlton in 62 was probably same level
Rivellino in 74 was disappointing
Van Basten has never scored in a World Cup finals, Gullit never had a good WC

If you hold Zico being injured in 1986 still as an example then Zidane in 2002 added to the list as well as Ronaldo 2014
What was Di Stefano's best World Cup?

I really don't think you have a point here at all.
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Which is why there's only one king of football who goes by the name of Edson Arantes do Nascimento. :)
 
Enigma_87 said:
If he won that WC IMO he’d entered that GOAT tier and he’d be talked in the same breath as Cruyff if not better for some.

I think we had that argument with @Gio before and from memory he even rated him at the same level even now.
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Yeah. I rate Zico higher than most, but I can see how the likes of Charlton, Cruyff, Zidane and others get considered in the same bracket based on their influence on the team as a whole. Zico's brilliance was more about his impact in the final third but compared to the others he was more reliant on the midfield behind him providing a platform to do what he did best.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
What's your take on Charlton's perforamnces in 1962?

iirc England was a bit shite and Charlton was not impressive ;)
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I think in one of FIFA's videos about Charlton they say that he was the best outside left in the competition. Although obviously not close to the certain outside right that he faced in the quarters, or himself of the 1966, but he was good.
 
Brwned said:
Yeah so I wouldn't bother involving Messi or Ronaldo in any of these discussions for obvious reasons. And I definitely wouldn't include the two Dutchmen or Rivelino in this discussion of elite players - we were talking about Cruyff and co.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here, though. What do you remember of Zico in '78?
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What’s Maradona excuse tho in 82’? He was playing for the team that won the competition 4 years earlier and did no better than Zico in 78’. It’s a team sport and WC being once in 4 years is bound to have up and downs.

The only player I can remember who was always performing at that stage (when not injured) was Pele. And more impressive his finest performances came 12 years apart.

Gio said:
Yeah. I rate Zico higher than most, but I can see how the likes of Charlton, Cruyff, Zidane and others get considered in the same bracket based on their influence on the team as a whole. Zico's brilliance was more about his impact in the final third but compared to the others he was more reliant on the midfield behind him providing a platform to do what he did best.
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Yeah of course mate, but same can be said for Maradona, Cristiano Ronaldo, even Messi for example.

Otherwise of course I can see where people come from and rating one better - all of them very elite footballers and down to personal preference.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Yeah of course mate, but same can be said for Maradona, Cristiano Ronaldo, even Messi for example.
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Well yes on the other two, not so much on Maradona. He's the quintessential example of someone who delivered the goods despite having little quality behind him and inspired those around him to greater heights.
 
Gio said:
Well yes on the other two, not so much on Maradona. He's the quintessential example of someone who delivered the goods despite having little quality behind him and inspired those around him to greater heights.
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Yes and no. in 82' Maradona IMO was even worse than Zico in 78'. Record signing at the time he was really underwhelming in the opening game and in the second stage. He also had some pretty good supporting cast in Passarella and couple of others (unpicked) that won the title 4 years earlier. He also needed a bit of, let's call it luck to roll the dice against England 4 years later and the rest is history. That Argie side is really underrated IMO. Title in 78', finalist in 90' and won it in 86' and it's not only down to Maradona - they have been consistent on that stage for over a decade.
 
idmanager said:
Err Di Stefano has European credentials?
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Alfredo never played in a World Cup.
The political mess of Argentina-Colombia is not his fault on the pitch but his failure to lead a talent flush Spanish side to even qualify for WC58 is a massive blemish on his record.

Certainly failing to lead that immense Spanish team (Luis Suarez, Kubala, Gento along with Don Alfredo) to qualify for the WC finals is a bigger failure than Zico in 1978 . Getting to the WC is better than not getting there after all yes? No matter what happens
So ultimately Zico's 1978 >>> Di Stefano's 1958


@Brwned
Let's break down 1978 Brazil to have better understanding of the context for comparison.

First, Zico should have matched Maradona1982's 2 goal tally if it wasn't for one of the worst ref decisions in WC history - he had a legal goal disallowed. So he matched Charlton62 and should have matched Maradona82 goal tally.

Additionally we have to take into account the horrible effect of Coutinho's management. 1994 was not the first time Brazil played negatively. 1978 was just as bad. He even benched Zico to play his overly defensive formation with Chicão. The tactic didn't suit Zico and the manager didn't like him. Coutinho btw was a known cnut for the dictatorship. He preferred Chicão to Falcão btw just to show how off kilter the manager was. Chicão mate.
It would be like if Moyes was managing Messi and benching him for Fellaini!

So its not like Zico actually played poorly as you seem to imply. He did play well in the limited capacity he was allowed. Statistically Zico was just as impressive as Charlton in 62 or Maradona in 82. Sure Dirceu and Nelinho were the stars in 78 but Coutinho set it up that way. IMO if Tele was the manager in 78 Brazil would have a much better chance of winning the crucial match against Argentina (certainly Zico and Falcão would have actually started)!

So even if you want to just keep it to GOAT tier you still have failures of CR2010, Messi2010, Di Stefano1958, Maradona1982 that were not any more impressive than Zico1978.

Also again for 1986 that doesn't count he was injured otherwise can add another CR year and a Zidane year.
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1986/0...rwent-delicate-knee-surgery-at/9054527400000/
 
All those GOAT failures have GOAT success stories too. Except for Zico. Which you are failing to look at.
 
Enigma_87 said:
What’s Maradona excuse tho in 82’? He was playing for the team that won the competition 4 years earlier and did no better than Zico in 78’. It’s a team sport and WC being once in 4 years is bound to have up and downs.

The only player I can remember who was always performing at that stage (when not injured) was Pele. And more impressive his finest performances came 12 years apart.
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Yeah I don't think Zico in '78 has actually registered with anyone. Comparing him to Maradona 4 years later is bizarre to me.

Zico was totally irrelevant in '78. This was Zico aged 25, after 4 seasons of scoring 30+ goals - it's him entering his peak. And it's a team starved of attacking quality in every possible way, crying out for an elite player to knit that team together. And it's not remotely an exaggeration to call him irrelevant. They drew their first two games in the World Cup, scoring just one goal. After that Zico was dropped from the team and they won their next 2 games and drew against the eventual winners, Argentina. He came back into the team against Poland, but got injured when it was 0-0 and they went on to win yet another game. And finally he was left on the bench entirely for their 3rd place play-off.

In summary, they were a better team without Zico than with him and they eventually took the decision to drop him entirely. Imagine Cruyff or di Stéfano or Péle being irrelevant for their teams. It didn't happen for a reason. What people are talking about is poor performances at an individual or team level, which almost no elite player has avoided. Being irrelevant is something else entirely.
 
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Gio said:
Well yes on the other two, not so much on Maradona. He's the quintessential example of someone who delivered the goods despite having little quality behind him and inspired those around him to greater heights.
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Why don't you post your pick? :confused:
 
Moby said:
Like Cruyff?

Failed to qualify in 1970.
Bottles the final in 1974.
Retires before 1978 actually starts.
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:lol::lol::lol: not the first time i saw this comment, absolute nonsense....lets not turn this thread into Ronaldo Messi esque debate, even one thread of that crap is too much.
 
Moby said:
Like Cruyff?

Failed to qualify in 1970.
Bottles the final in 1974.
Retires before 1978 actually starts.
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Not cool or accurate!
 
Brwned said:
Yeah I don't think Zico in '78 has actually registered with anyone. Comparing him to Maradona 4 years later is bizarre to me.
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Maybe not in your age group in your geographic location but among C/S Americans who were alive to watch both, Zico78 and Maradona82 are considered relatively equal in their failure that were partially not their fault. And again, Di Stefano58 is a far bigger NT failure than any of Zico's years. He never even played in a WC ffs.
 
Pointless debate at times.

Like comparing a number 10's goals output to an outside left's.
 
Moby said:
Like Cruyff?

Failed to qualify in 1970.
Bottles the final in 1974.
Retires before 1978 actually starts.
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Zico's flat track bully career doesnt come anywhere near even cleaning Cryuff 1974's boots
 
im not even sure what are they debating, who had the worst WC? :lol:
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Maybe not in your age group in your geographic location but among C/S Americans who were alive to watch both, Zico78 and Maradona82 are considered relatively equal in their failure that were partially not their fault. And again, Di Stefano58 is a far bigger NT failure than any of Zico's years. He never even played in a WC ffs.
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Sure, that might've been the story that's stuck with you guys but it seems pretty clear to me you'd forgotten he was dropped for half the games. Otherwise you wouldn't have been comparing him to Charlton in '62. They're obviously worlds apart. Zico in '78 is just remembered as a disappointment, and the facts behind that melted away in popular discussion. The reality is quite different.
 
Brwned said:
Sure, that might've been the story that's stuck with you guys but it seems pretty clear to me you'd forgotten he was dropped for half the games. Otherwise you wouldn't have been comparing him to Charlton in '62. They're obviously worlds apart. Zico in '78 is just remembered as a disappointment, and the facts behind that melted away in popular discussion. The reality is quite different.
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If you are not even going to read my post explaining the context then no pointing arguing with your calcified opinion that is not open for analysis

Also, so what?

CR2010 is remembered as a disappointment
Messi2010 is remembered as a disappointment
Maradona1982 is remembered as a disappointment
Di Stefano1958 is remembered as a disappointement
 
idmanager said:
Zico's flat track bully career doesnt come anywhere near even cleaning Cryuff 1974's boots
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The Brazilian league in the 1970s was better than any league in the world. Flat track bully is not an argument someone in the top heavy 1970s Eredivisie can use against 1970s Brazilian league competition. Zico regularly faced stronger competition than Cruyff. I love Cruyff but this isn't an argument that he can use.

Also the Copa Libertadore was more competitive than(or at the least equivalent to) the European Cup in those years.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
If you are not even going to read my post explaining the context then no pointing arguing with your calcified opinion that is not open for analysis

Also, so what?

CR2010 is remembered as a disappointment
Messi2010 is remembered as a disappointment
Maradona1982 is remembered as a disappointment
Di Stefano1958 is remembered as a disappointement
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I understand the context - I consider blaming the manager's tactics in international football as an excuse, when it comes to players at this level. I think a lot of people make that same excuse for Messi and I don't agree with it then either. It's nothing against Zico.

My point is really simple. Maradona was a disappointment. Zico didn't contribute enough to be considered even that. He was just an irrelevance. Like Paul Scholes for England. Can you think of other players to play so poorly in the first two games that they were dropped from the World Cup team, which subsequently led to a significant improvement in results? I'm not saying dropping Zico caused that improvement. But his presence wasn't relevant to the team's success. I can't think of an elite player that ever experienced that at the highest level.
 
Brwned said:
I understand the context - I consider blaming the manager's tactics in international football as an excuse, when it comes to players at this level. I think a lot of people make that same excuse for Messi and I don't agree with it then either. It's nothing against Zico.

My point is really simple. Maradona was a disappointment. Zico didn't contribute enough to be considered even that. He was just an irrelevance. Like Paul Scholes for England. Can you think of other players to play so poorly in the first two games that they were dropped from the World Cup team, which subsequently led to a significant improvement in results? I'm not saying dropping Zico caused that improvement. But his presence wasn't relevant to the team's success. I can't think of an elite player that ever experienced that at the highest level.
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Have you watched all the matches and read commentary from the time in magazines like Placar? Zico contributed every bit as much as Maradona in 1982 considering what he was allowed to do. Can't blame Zico for being benched. France Football for example rates Zico's performances in the group stage higher than several players that Coutinho actually started. Zico was also not the only one benched, as Falcão was also. These were political benchings nothing to do with their performances.

The others (CR, Messi, Di Stefano, Maradona) all have just as big if not much bigger failures than Zico to anyone looking at it objectively so what is your point to try to highlight 78 Zico?
Zico's NT career shits all over Di Stefano's international career for example so its just bizarre that you are going out of your way to diss Zico in the draft thread based on one World Cup.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
The Brazilian league in the 1970s was better than any league in the world. Flat track bully is not an argument someone in the top heavy 1970s Eredivisie can use against 1970s Brazilian league competition. Zico regularly faced stronger competition than Cruyff. I love Cruyff but this isn't an argument that he can use.

Also the Copa Libertadore was more competitive than(or at the least equivalent to) the European Cup in those years.
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Competitions aside, bringing Cruff to Zico's level in any debate is as pitiful as when Antohan claimed and defended that Rui Costa had a better Serie A career than Zidane.

Fecking shows that Cryuff is the undeniably underrated player in the Caf drafts. People would orgasm over Zico and the like but the first idea is to find mistakes in the setup when Cruyff is involved.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Have you watched all the matches and read commentary from the time in magazines like Placar?

The others (CR, Messi, Di Stefano, Maradona) all have just as big if not much bigger failures than Zico to anyone looking at it objectively so what is your point to try to highlight 78 Zico?
Zico's NT career shits all over Di Stefano's international career for example so its just bizarre that you are going out of your way to diss Zico in the draft thread based on one World Cup.
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I don't understand why people are so unwilling to entertain the discussion when the facts speak for themselves. He suffered an embarrassment I can't remember any of the other players suffering. Can you remember any of them being dropped, in their prime, in a major tournament? It's entirely possible I'm overlooking players but bringing up Charlton in '62 is just obfuscation. And that's what I find odd about Zico. People like to find excuses for him.
 
idmanager said:
Competitions aside, bringing Cruff to Zico's level in any debate is as pitiful as when Antohan claimed and defended that Rui Costa had a better Serie A career than Zidane.

Fecking shows that Cryuff is the undeniably underrated player in the Caf drafts. People would orgasm over Zico and the like but the first idea is to find mistakes in the setup when Cruyff is involved.
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This is just a red herring and not my actual point. You either intentionally misunderstood or I just didn't explain well. Either way, I'm not going down this strawman route so just drop it
 
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