The History Thread

Scientists use X-rays to decipher charred Vesuvius scrolls

New technology finds Greek text on papyrus, allowing investigation of hundreds of ancient scrolls that were damaged in 79 AD

Reuters
20 Jan 2015


The contents of hundreds of papyrus scrolls that were turned into charcoal during the eruption of Italy's Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD - one of the great natural disasters of antiquity - have long remained a mystery. That soon may change.

Scientists said on Tuesday a sophisticated form of X-ray technology has enabled them to decipher some of the writing in the charred scrolls from a library once housed in a sumptuous villa in ancient Herculaneum, a city that overlooked the Bay of Naples.

The library was part of what's called the Villa of the Papyri, which may have belonged to Julius Caesar's father-in-law. Other libraries from antiquity have been discovered but this is the only one that had its scrolls still present.

Along with its sister city Pompeii, Herculaneum was buried by the eruption. The scrolls were carbonised by a blast of gas, hotter than 300C, ending up looking like burned logs.

Roughly 1,800 of the delicate and brittle scrolls were unearthed in the 1750s. Some have been deciphered. Most have not. Methods used over the years to unroll them or separate their layers have destroyed many.

Carbonised papyrus and the black charcoal ink used in the scrolls have very similar compositions, making it tough to make out the writing using even advanced scanning methods. But these researchers used a technology similar to CT scans, called X-ray Phase Contrast Tomography, to decipher the writing while leaving the scroll rolled up.

"They are extremely fragile because they are, more or less, only pieces of charcoal," said Emmanuel Brun of the European Synchrotron Radiation Facility in Grenoble and Ludwig Maximilians University in Munich, who helped lead the study.

The method was used on one intact charred scroll as well as scroll fragments, added Vito Mocella of the Institute for Microelectronics and Microsystems, part of the National Council of Research in Naples.

The researchers determined the writing was in ancient Greek and the intact scroll may be a text written by 1st century BC *********** Philodemus.

While this study was not intended to reveal the scrolls' full contents, Dr Mocella said there were plans to use the technology to decipher the hundreds of remaining scrolls. Experts have hoped these may contain famous lost ancient works.

"We're very excited about this possibility because we know the immense value for the study of ancient Greek and Latin civilization," he said.

The intact scroll used in the study, published in the journal Nature Communications, was given to Napoleon Bonaparte as a gift in 1802, said Dr Brun.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ays-to-decipher-charred-Vesuvius-scrolls.html



This is the only remaining such library from antiquity, so hopefully the above method will enable researchers to uncover something unlike previous discoveries.

It made me wonder though, what would remain of the ideas and words of the present era centuries or millennia from now? Does the digitised nature of our media lend itself to such longevity? On the other hand, it is easier to store vast amounts of date on portable devices, the question being one of access.
 
This is the only remaining such library from antiquity, so hopefully the above method will enable researchers to uncover something unlike previous discoveries.

It made me wonder though, what would remain of the ideas and words of the present era centuries or millennia from now? Does the digitised nature of our media lend itself to such longevity? On the other hand, it is easier to store vast amounts of date on portable devices, the question being one of access.
It's an interesting question. Certainly the volume of data that can be stored digitally makes for a smaller space in recording, but technology is advancing at such a rate that materials recorded by cutting edge technology fifteen years ago is having to be transcribed to ensure it remains accessible. There is a reason why most archaeologists, for example, record using pencil and acid free paper in the field. It's simply much more permanent and accessible than the more advanced methods.
 
Last edited:
The Guardian - Tutankhamun's beard glued back on, say Egyptian museum conservators

The blue and gold braided beard on the burial mask of famed pharaoh Tutankhamun was hastily glued back on with epoxy, damaging the relic after it was knocked during cleaning, conservators at the Egyptian Museum in Cairo said on Wednesday.
...

“Unfortunately he used a very irreversible material — epoxy has a very high property for attaching and is used on metal or stone but I think it wasn’t suitable for an outstanding object like Tutankhamun’s golden mask,” one conservator said.

“The mask should have been taken to the conservation lab but they were in a rush to get it displayed quickly again and used this quick-drying, irreversible material,” the conservator added.

The conservator said that the mask now shows a gap between the face and the beard, whereas before it was directly attached. “Now you can see a layer of transparent yellow,” the conservator said.

Another museum conservator, who was present at the time of the repair, said that epoxy had dried on the face of the boy king’s mask and that a colleague used a spatula to remove it, leaving scratches. The first conservator, who inspects the artifact regularly, confirmed the scratches and said it was clear that they had been made by a tool used to scrape off the epoxy.

I think this was more or less the plot of one of the Mr Bean movies.
 
Richard III reburial (March 26th): Everything you need to Know ~

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ear...o-know-about-Leicester-Cathedral-service.html
He was the king, he deserves to be in Westminster! I'm not a monarchist, but if some of our worst rulers are in there, why not Richard? Historically nowhere near as bad as Shakespeare says he was, and actually died on the battlefield (the last one of course). Deserves better than that, then again I do know he is not the only monarch to be buried outside of London.
 
He was the king, he deserves to be in Westminster! I'm not a monarchist, but if some of our worst rulers are in there, why not Richard? Historically nowhere near as bad as Shakespeare says he was, and actually died on the battlefield (the last one of course). Deserves better than that, then again I do know he is not the only monarch to be buried outside of London.
I think you'll find that many monarchs are buried outside London - he died nearby at the battlefield site and it is not unusual for monarchs to be buried near where they died - especially in battle. It's the most appropriate place for him to be honest.
 
he needs to be in york, ya cnuts
He was a member of the House of York - a royal house that had as much to do with Yorkshire as the royal House of Lancaster had to do with Lancashire - nothing. Leicester is the right place for him and fits in with the traditional method of burying dead English kings defeated in battle.
 
http://www.thegreatcourses.co.uk/courses/maya-to-aztec-ancient-mesoamerica-revealed.html


For a few years now i have been hoping that the Great Cour3es would release a course about the Maya, and finally they have. I hope that they shall do likewise for the indigenous peoples of the North America and the Caribbean.

The professor cited a volcanic eruption as a contributing factor to the demise of the Classical Mayan era, something which i had not previously heard. Although the destructive er8utpion near Santorini, and gradual decline of the Minoans, could be one parallel.
 
Last edited:
He was the king, he deserves to be in Westminster! I'm not a monarchist, but if some of our worst rulers are in there, why not Richard? Historically nowhere near as bad as Shakespeare says he was, and actually died on the battlefield (the last one of course). Deserves better than that, then again I do know he is not the only monarch to be buried outside of London.
Some are buried in Winchester Cathedral.
 
History buffs reenact Holy Land crusader battle
Aficionados recreate 1187 clash between Saladin and Christian army from the Kingdom of Jerusalem

http://www.timesofisrael.com/history-buffs-reenact-holy-land-crusader-battle/

APTOPIX-Mideast-Israe_Horo1-e1436159475341-965x543.jpg


KARNEI HITTIN (AP) — The year is 1187 and the crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem is beginning to collapse. At the Battle of Hattin, sword-wielding soldiers on horseback chant in Arabic, looking to behead their Christian targets.

Some 60 history buffs are re-enacting the famed battle near an extinct volcano in northern Israel overlooking the Sea of Galilee, where Saladin’s army defeated the crusaders at the end of the 12th century. The Battle of Hattin marked the strengthening of Muslim rule in the region.

Replete with swords, shields and body armor, the group marched 27 kilometers (17 miles) this weekend while re-enacting one of the most significant battles of the Middle Ages. The level of detail went down to the use of wooden and ceramic utensils and hand-woven undergarments reflective of the time.

“It’s a direct way of connecting to history, not through books and not through the computer,” said Genadiy Niznik, who organized the event and heads the only Israeli chapter of the “living history” trend.

About a third of the participants arrived with their elaborate gear from Russia. The project is supported by the Lower Galilee Regional Council.

Niznik, who is completing a master’s degree in archaeology at Haifa University and researches attire and textiles from the Holy Land of the 12th century, hopes the trend will begin to catch on in the Holy Land. He said the area offers stories and locales just as captivating as those of Civil War reenactments that draw big crowds in the United States.

(More pictures through the link)


 
"Oldest' Koran fragments found in Birmingham University

_84297104_koranbirmingham624.jpg


What may be the world's oldest fragments of the Koran have been found by the University of Birmingham.

Radiocarbon dating found the manuscript to be at least 1,370 years old, making it among the earliest in existence.

The pages of the Muslim holy text had remained unrecognised in the university library for almost a century.

The British Library's expert on such manuscripts, Dr Muhammad Isa Waley, said this "exciting discovery" would make Muslims "rejoice".

The manuscript had been kept with a collection of other Middle Eastern books and documents, without being identified as one of the oldest fragments of the Koran in the world.

Oldest texts
When a PhD researcher looked more closely at these pages it was decided to carry out a radiocarbon dating test and the results were "startling".

The university's director of special collections, Susan Worrall, said researchers had not expected "in our wildest dreams" that it would be so old.

"Finding out we had one of the oldest fragments of the Koran in the whole world has been fantastically exciting."

_84147067_009805776-1.jpg

The University of Birmingham's manuscript was in a collection brought back from the Middle East.

The tests, carried out by the Oxford University Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit, showed that the fragments, written on sheep or goat skin, were among the very oldest surviving texts of the Koran.

These tests provide a range of dates, showing that, with a probability of more than 95%, the parchment was from between 568 and 645.

"They could well take us back to within a few years of the actual founding of Islam," said David Thomas, the university's professor of Christianity and Islam.

"According to Muslim tradition, the Prophet Muhammad received the revelations that form the Koran, the scripture of Islam, between the years 610 and 632, the year of his death."

More here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33436021
 
A word of caution here - http://www.medievalhistories.com/oldest-quran-manuscript-in-the-world/

We must ask: From where is it known that this beautiful manuscript was not written on stockpiled parchment? As a matter of fact a beautiful manuscript written on parchment cannot be produced without stockpiling the prepared skin before one proceeds to write it. The reason is of course that animal skin comes in all sorts of qualities. In order to produce a book, which looks homogenous such skins has to be stockpiled in advance in order for it to be possible at some point to choose leaves of parchment of the same colour, quality, size etc. This is especially the case for such beautiful manuscripts as the one here presented to the public.

These particular fragments of the Qur’an might thus very well have been written later than what the radio-carbon-dating says. In fact this is likely!


The researcher in question has written about the parchments before - https://iqsaweb.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/qmmc/
 
Yesterday was 25 years since the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait - "the first time since the Second World War that a state had invaded a neighboring state unprovoked, with which it had diplomatic relations, and was at peace. And then outright annexed it." (https://arunwithaview.wordpress.com/2015/08/02/kuwait-august-2nd-1990/):



This week marks the 25th anniversary of a seismic moment in the history of this region. On August 2, 1990, on the orders of president Saddam Hussein, the Iraqi Republican Guard breached the border with Kuwait. Within two days, Kuwait had been overrun, its leadership forced to flee to Saudi Arabia. Soon, Saddam had proclaimed his oil-rich neighbour to be Iraq’s 19th province. It was a relatively swift battle that triggered a whole set of unforeseen circumstances. Indeed, the reverberations of that invasion are still being felt today.

It came as a shock to many. The United States had noticed an Iraqi troop build-up just a week before, but did not imagine Saddam was planning a full invasion. Still licking their wounds from their embarrassing and costly defeat in Vietnam, Americans were reluctant to engage in another fight that was not their own and was far from home. Officially, the US did not want to take sides in what they saw as an inter-Arab conflict and Saddam gambled that Kuwait was not important enough to them to change their mind.

The rest of the world’s attention was distracted by the sense of optimism that accompanied the tail end of the Cold War. The Berlin Wall had already come down and while the official break-up of the Soviet Union was yet to come, there was a palpable sense of a new world order in which peace and prosperity would replace repression and suspicion.

Instead, America’s reluctant decision to respond in support of Kuwait and its other Gulf allies marked the beginning of a quarter-century of military engagement in this region. Iraq’s occupation and plundering of Kuwait led to the creation of the largest military alliance since the Second World War – a 39-country coalition that included the US, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Egypt, France and the UK under the banner of Operation Desert Storm. The adventure in Kuwait also led to Saddam’s eventual downfall in the second Gulf War, but not before it gave rise to Al Qaeda whose leader Osama bin Laden cited the continued US military presence in Saudi Arabia as one of the main reasons for the September 11, 2001 attacks. The terror tactics of Al Qaeda have since been adopted by ISIL and its ilk with horrific consequences, and war rages across Syria and Iraq.

Saddam’s great miscalculation – that he could carry off a small, winnable war while the world stood by – had far greater consequences than he, or anyone at the time, could have imagined for Iraq, Kuwait, the region and the global geopolitical balance.

http://www.thenational.ae/opinion/editorial/we-paid-a-price-for-saddams-kuwait-gamble
 
Remember a day or two before the invasion telling some coworkers if it happened we would be at war they all thought I was nuts. Even in the first couple of days after they told me Iz was wrong. When the troops started being shipped over they realized it was serious
 
Have you ever been Syria, @2cents ?

Yeah a couple of times, in 2008 and 2009. It was my favourite Arab country then - nicest people (always the most important thing), best food (second most important). You been?
 


Uncanny how things ce on panned out, the battle taking place on Saint Crispin's day.
 
Last edited:
I've been watching various TV shows on the Roman invasion of Britain, the Norse men, the Norman years and all the way up to and including Chaucer's time.
They spoke a lot about how the English language evolved. Quite amazing for me really as I've never learned that history before.
 
Henry II and Richard the Lionheart are buried in Normady right? Give our Kings back ya frogs..or give us back Normandy.

Henry was born in France, chiefo.
 
Henry II and Richard the Lionheart are buried in Normady right?

Give our Kings back ya frogs..or give us back Normandy.

From the source material we have, Richard the Lionheart only spent around 6 months in England during his reign. 'English' kings in the medieval period were generally far more 'French', both culturally and in terms of their territorial aspirations than they were English. You have to remember that for a decent length of time the English crown actually held more territory in modern-day France than did the French. Certainly for Richard, his holdings in Britain were largely just a source of manpower and funding for his wars, both in France and further afield.

edit:

also, like many successful or notable monarchs, he was an utter bastard.
 
From the source material we have, Richard the Lionheart only spent around 6 months in England during his reign. 'English' kings in the medieval period were generally far more 'French', both culturally and in terms of their territorial aspirations than they were English. You have to remember that for a decent length of time the English crown actually held more territory in modern-day France than did the French. Certainly for Richard, his holdings in Britain were largely just a source of manpower and funding for his wars, both in France and further afield.

edit:

also, like many successful or notable monarchs, he was an utter bastard.

To be fair to Richard, that was because he spent the first half of his reign fighting a crusade, then imprisoned in Germany, and then fighting against the French to get back the land that they'd pinched whilst he was being held hostage.
 
To be fair to Richard, that was because he spent the first half of his reign fighting a crusade, then imprisoned in Germany, and then fighting against the French to get back the land that they'd pinched whilst he was being held hostage.

True, but then it could also be said that if he hadn't antagonised basically everyone (including the French and the HRE) on the crusade he'd probably have got home to find his empire relatively intact.
 
Interesting. The Normans built castles all over England after 1066, but they were mostly of the 'motte-and-bailey' type. I wonder what the story of this one is?

Gloucester has been home to two medieval castles. The first was built east of the prison site, according to the researchers, and then replaced by a new stone castle around the year 1110.

The recent discovery is believed to have been the latter, which would have been comparable in size to the White Tower at the Tower of London, Holbrook said.

That's the Norman's MO, really. Build a Motte and Bailey castle, caus they could knock them up in about 2 weeks, then if they needed to they built a stone one on top.