I'm interested in two things. First, how and since when sports was used to inculcate social values. And he evolution of soccer after the game was codified.
I'm also interested in your research. Do you mind fleshing it out a little more?
The History Thread
- Thread starter SteveJ
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I'm interested in two things. First, how and since when sports was used to inculcate social values. And he evolution of soccer after the game was codified.
I'm also interested in your research. Do you mind fleshing it out a little more?
I'll have a think about what you're interested in and send you a pm over the next few days - I have some stuff you might be interested in. Better to do it that way than clog up the thread.
Never heard of that. From anything I've ever read, war was an exclusively masculine pursuit in the ancient world. Can you cite examples of societies employing female soldiers who went off to war?
The famous obvious ones are people like Boudica and Joan of Arc. Yet there are many ancient societies where women played a major military role. Plato and Socrates argued that in Ancient Greece women should undertake military training as well as men. The Soldaderos in ancient Mexico were many thousands of women who participated in war across centuries. Then there are the Amazons, who Herodotus suggests were located in Scythia, although others dispute this precise location. There are several Medieval sources making reference to female warriors. On a more modern level, in the period between the two great wars of the last century the Soviet Union specifically trained women as undercover military agents and as defenders if they would be needed.There is a fairly extensive, if not often publicised number, of female warriors across history.
Records of female soldiers are rare, partially because by all indications they were a minority, but also because a lot of primary materials are written in languages with gendered nouns. For example if you're reading about Medieval warfare in Europe you'll probably be reading a chronicle in Latin. Latin nouns are divided into masculine, feminine and neuter and a lot of traditionally 'military' nouns are masculine (grammatically speaking). So for a simple sentence like 'The soldiers besieged the town' where you can't definitively infer gender in English, the Latin equivalent (Milites villam clausivit) implicitly marks the soldiers as male regardless of their actual gender because the word 'Miles' (soldier) is a masculine noun.
This is compounded by how/why the primary texts we rely on were written. Mostly they are narrative histories commissioned by rich and/or powerful people who want their deeds recorded and as such they're largely concerned with talking about big events and the deeds of important people. This is why if you wikipedia a battle, they'll generally have a pretty decent ball-park figure of how many knights were on a particular side, but a far more sketchy estimate of numbers of infantry (i.e - the rank-and-file). Basically the upshot of this is that the people writing largely weren't even concerned about the number of commoners in a battle, never mind their gender. There's absolutely loads of records of noble women commanding armies and going into battle, so it seems strange to write off the possibility of women fighting in the rank-and-file. By all accounts archaeological evidence suggests that warrior women were definitely more common across the board than has traditionally been assumed by academics.
For concrete examples, off the top of my head you've got the Mongols and pre-Roman British Celts who employed women in both mixed and single-sex regiments, as well as the ones @Erebus mentioned.
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Very unconvincing, if I may say so.
Boudica was the Iceni's political leader, who,according to the custom of the time, marched at the head of the army. Joan was propelled from obscurity to a role as figurehead French military leader on the back of religious fervour. Neither was a rank and file combat soldier or earned her place due to military prowess.
The opinions of Plato and Socrates are irrelevant. They weren't implemented.
The only reference to Soldaderos I can find dates from the Mexican revolution, which is hardly ancient history. You might as well cite female soldiers in the modern Israeli army.
There's no evidence that the Amazons were anything other than a colourful myth, taking their place with Centaurs and Rocs.
What medieval references?
Once again. Evidence?
I can find no reference to Mongol female soldiers. There are many accounts of Mongol women enjoying considerable rights and freedoms, but none of them participating in warfare.
What we know about pre-Roman Celtic Britain is largely myth or hearsay - druidic priests and sacred groves etc. The first true historiographical account comes from Julius Caesar, who makes no mention of his army fighting female soldiers.
During WW2 the Soviets did use women in combat and non-combat roles. Many anti-aircraft units were manned by women (pun intended). They had several regiments in the air force with nothing but women pilots and they did see lots of combat. Many snipers during WW2 in the Red Army were women, one had over 300 kills to her credit.
Read at least once that Boudica had a large contigent female warriors in her army, but not sure if the source I read it in was very reliable.
Read at least once that Boudica had a large contigent female warriors in her army, but not sure if the source I read it in was very reliable.
You'll have to trust me on the Mongols. I wrote my undergrad dissertation on them and I'm current writing on them for my Masters so I've read a lot of stuff that either isn't accessible online or requires you to trawl through journals.
Roman histories run into the same issues I mentioned above concerning language, but even so there are references to women warriors amongst both Germanic and Celtic tribes in Tacitus, Plutarch, Dio Cassius, Anniamus Marcellinus and probably others I've not read/have been lost/have not yet been translated. The evidence is there.
I'm not going to go into why so much of what you say is wrong, but this bit is so far off the beam it's not true. There exists extensive evidence about Pre-Roman Britain - or if not I've spent an awful long time excavating irrelevant materials. You're totally dismissing Palaeolithic, Mesolithic, Neolithic, Iron and Bronze Ages (several thousand years of human existence). There is a huge library on this - Chariot Burials are just one further example. Myself and others have tried to give you examples of women as warriors across history. The other problem is that, I think, you're referring purely to historical evidence (although others have given further very clear examples from historical evidence), whilst my knowledge is in the archaeological record. If you're not prepared to believe us then fine.
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That kind of games had nothing to do with basketball - the players were not allowed to use their hands and were taking turns hitting the ball, if anything you might say it was closer to tennis.
Out of interest, what kind of primary sources are available for the study of the Mongols? I'm assuming you'd need a good understanding of at least a couple of Asian languages.
In terms of first hand sources from the Mongols themselves the big one is The Secret History of the Mongols which is basically the official Mongol history of the rise of Chinggis Khan through to the death of Ogedei Khan. Luckily that's been translated into English. One really interesting source is from a Daoist called Changchun who was with Chinggis during his campaigns in Central Asia.
From my experience though, the best sources come from Persia (and mercifully a lot of them have been translated). You have a lot of different Persian historians writing from different perspectives, from your classic big picture narratives, diplomacy, warfare right down to really specific stuff about how Mongol governance worked from Persians working within the Mongol administration. The Mongols didn't really have a strong tradition of written history (their written language only dates back as far as Chinggis) so its sort of a theme that the existing historiographical traditions of the areas they conquered provide the backbone of our primary sources.
From the invasions in Persia there are some pretty cool sources which are basically the Eastern-most Muslim rulers sending stories of the initial invasions west in order to try and raise some kind of united Muslim stand against the invasion. You also have some really good travellogs from when the empire has settled. For a decent chunk of time you could get from the Eastern Mediterranean all the way to China in Mongol territory (albeit passing through the domains of 3 different Khans), and a lot of educated Muslims made that journey and wrote about it, as well as the odd bunch of Christians. The obvious two are Marco Polo and Ibn-Battuta, both available as books in English and both great sources if you're looking into how trade and travel across the empire was facilitated.
In Latin you get some credible stuff in terms of recounting of big events (battles, sieges, wars etc.) but also a lot of bizarre stuff. When the invasions reached modern-day Russia the reports called them Tatars (the name of another Central Asian nomadic group), which Christian monks immediately conflated with Tartarus (the Greek Underworld) to create this narrative of the Mongols being the army of hell sent to punish Christendom. Understandably at that point it's inadvisable to take the sources at face value.
But yeah, short story is, the odd Mongol source, a lot of Persian/Arabic stuff and a bunch of dubious Christian stuff. There's Chinese stuff (Kublai Khan was the first person to rule over a united China) but not very much of it is translated and I have no Chinese whatsoever.
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These sources are not particularly reliable - in one of them it even said that the mezzo-americans were playing the game with the skulls of their defeated foes. I know for a fact that there is no evidence for anything like that - it is nothing more than a wild speculation.
Naismith invented basketball and he said the mezzo-american game was his "inspiration". It doesn't mean basketball came from the Aztecs. This is almost like saying that America is related to India, because Columbus heard about the tales of a western route to India and that's what inspired him to eventually find America.
Ah yes, I've read Ibn Battuta's Rihla. What a time to be alive that was.
Very interesting post, thanks. I study Middle Eastern history (mainly modern stuff though), so I'm broadly aware of the history of the Mongols in that particular region - much less so anywhere else though.
Rihla is incredible in a lot of ways, it's interesting to see how advanced and wide-spread Afro-Asian trade was throughout the Medieval period. Especially when compared to Europe, which was pretty insular by comparison.
No problem, like most postgraduates I love banging on about what I'm studying. What's your particular topic of interest within the Middle East?
Indian Ocean history is becoming a distinct field in its own right now. If you haven't read it already, a really interesting nice little book is Amitav Ghosh's In An Antique Land.
I'm interested in imperial connections between British India and the Arab Middle East during the late 19th/early 20th centuries. Wrote my MA thesis on the Indian Muslim reaction to the British-sponsored Arab Revolt of WW1.
Fortunately for me, in this area there is abundant source material in the British Archives, e.g. the Qatari government have just helped digitalise hundreds of thousands of Gulf-related documents held in the India Office Records at the British Library - http://www.qdl.qa/en
I have only the deepest admiration for any historian researching any period before the modern age - the required language skills, source-handling, paleography, etc. are beyond me.
Modern history really interests me but I think I'd find it very difficult to study because a lot of the stuff involved is often directly linked to uncomfortable modern political issues. I imagine looking at the British Empire with regards to the Middle-East is probably a very good example of that.
I wont lie, a lot of the stuff involved in looking at Medieval History is pretty frustrating. Reading Latin when it's written out in a modern font with modern punctuation is a different kettle of fish to seeing an original source where there's no punctuation and occasionally not even gaps between words. But a lot of the appeal for me is the potential of making new discoveries through looking at primary sources that haven't been looked at before. I suppose sinking time into language skills and paleography are the price you pay for opening up the world of the as-yet-not-translated
Also thanks for that book recommendation I'll definitely check that out!
If only they'd lived a bit longer they could have lost a.gainst the Prussians again in 1870
Yesterday was the 100th anniversary of the unofficial Ottoman entry to the First World War. Here's the story - http://mideasti.blogspot.ie/2014/10/october-29-1914-admiral-souchon-forces.html
November 11th marks the official Ottoman declaration of war.
November 11th marks the official Ottoman declaration of war.
Moon size UFO near sun may be evidence of Type II alien civilization
http://www.examiner.com/article/moon-size-ufo-near-sun-may-be-evidence-of-type-ii-alien-civilization
http://www.examiner.com/article/moon-size-ufo-near-sun-may-be-evidence-of-type-ii-alien-civilization
So advanced aliens fly blob shaped spacecraft. I did not know that.
Today marks the 100th anniversary of the Government of India's invasion of the Ottoman province of Basra, an event that led to the creation of Iraq four years later.
http://mideasti.blogspot.ie/2014/11/first-fights-on-road-to-basra-november.html
For anyone interested, the author of that blog is gonna be covering all the major "WW1 in the Middle East" centenaries over the next four years. The war produced the Middle East we know today, and many of the regions problems can be traced back to decisions made at that time.
http://mideasti.blogspot.ie/2014/11/first-fights-on-road-to-basra-november.html
For anyone interested, the author of that blog is gonna be covering all the major "WW1 in the Middle East" centenaries over the next four years. The war produced the Middle East we know today, and many of the regions problems can be traced back to decisions made at that time.
Erdoğan says America was discovered by Muslims, not Columbus
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/er...umbus.aspx?pageID=517&nID=74371&NewsCatID=338
Beat that, caftards
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/er...umbus.aspx?pageID=517&nID=74371&NewsCatID=338
Beat that, caftards
Well you can't trace back the problems to decisions that were rejected at the time can you?
He's probably right except is not that Cuba Columbus was talking about but the one in Portugal.
Don't know if anyone's interested in this about the finding of one of Sir John Franklin's ships - Erebus by the way!
http://www.archaeology.org/issues/161-1501/features/2788-canada-franklin-shipwreck-erebus-discovered
http://www.archaeology.org/issues/161-1501/features/2788-canada-franklin-shipwreck-erebus-discovered
Studied that for a little bit in one of my classes this year. Some more here;
http://lifeasahuman.com/2014/arts-c...pedition-finding-franklins-hms-erebus-part-2/
http://lifeasahuman.com/2014/arts-c...pedition-finding-franklins-hms-erebus-part-2/
Sorry - didn't see that!
http://www.crowcanyon.org/index.php/time-team-america-crow-canyon
For anyone into NA Archaeology, specifically Pueblo - competition to win an excavation spot.
For anyone into NA Archaeology, specifically Pueblo - competition to win an excavation spot.
Can anyone recommend a good, readable but comprehensive history of ancient Egypt?
This isn't a book but rather an audio/video course, it's a bit more pricey yet might suit your p8rpose and does cover a lot of ground.
http://www.thegreatcourses.co.uk/courses/history-of-ancient-egypt.html
http://www.historynet.com/today-in-history
Today In History. What Happened This Day In History
A chronological timetable of historical events that occurred on this day in history. Historical facts of the day in the areas of military, politics, science, music, sports, arts, entertainment and more. Discover what happened today in history.
1523 In Switzerland, Ulrich Zwingli publishes his 67 Articles, the first manifesto of the Zurich Reformation which attacks the authority of the Pope.
1783 William Pitt becomes the youngest Prime Minister of England at age 24.
1847 New Mexico Governor Charles Bent is slain by Pueblo Indians in Taos.
1861 Georgia secedes from the Union.
1902 The magazine "L'Auto" announces the new Tour de France.
1915 The first German air raids on Great Britain inflict minor casualties.
1923 The French announce the invention of a new gun that has a firing range of 56 miles.
1931 The Wickersham Committee issues a report asking for revisions in the dry law, but no repeal.
1937 Howard Hughes flies from Los Angeles to New York in seven hours and 22 minutes.
1937 In the Soviet Union, the People's Commissars Council is formed under Molotov.
1945 The Red Army captures Lodz, Krakow, and Tarnow.
1947 The French open a drive on Hue, Indochina.
1949 The Chiang Government moves the capital of China to Canton.
1950 Communist Chinese leader Mao recognizes the Republic of Vietnam.
1968 Cambodia charges that the United States and South Vietnam have crossed the border and killed three Cambodians.
1981 The United States and Iran sign an accord on a hostage release in Algiers.
1983 The New Catholic code expands women's rights in the Church.
Born on January 19
1736 James Watt, Scottish inventor.
1807 Robert E. Lee, Confederate general during the American Civil War.
1809 Edgar Allan Poe, American author and poet ("Fall of the House of Usher," "The Tell-Tale Heart," "The Raven," "Annabel Lee.")
1839 Paul Cézanne, French post-Impressionist painter (Card Players
- See more at: http://www.historynet.com/today-in-history#sthash.HFEkgVxe.dpuf
Today In History. What Happened This Day In History
A chronological timetable of historical events that occurred on this day in history. Historical facts of the day in the areas of military, politics, science, music, sports, arts, entertainment and more. Discover what happened today in history.
1523 In Switzerland, Ulrich Zwingli publishes his 67 Articles, the first manifesto of the Zurich Reformation which attacks the authority of the Pope.
1783 William Pitt becomes the youngest Prime Minister of England at age 24.
1847 New Mexico Governor Charles Bent is slain by Pueblo Indians in Taos.
1861 Georgia secedes from the Union.
1902 The magazine "L'Auto" announces the new Tour de France.
1915 The first German air raids on Great Britain inflict minor casualties.
1923 The French announce the invention of a new gun that has a firing range of 56 miles.
1931 The Wickersham Committee issues a report asking for revisions in the dry law, but no repeal.
1937 Howard Hughes flies from Los Angeles to New York in seven hours and 22 minutes.
1937 In the Soviet Union, the People's Commissars Council is formed under Molotov.
1945 The Red Army captures Lodz, Krakow, and Tarnow.
1947 The French open a drive on Hue, Indochina.
1949 The Chiang Government moves the capital of China to Canton.
1950 Communist Chinese leader Mao recognizes the Republic of Vietnam.
1968 Cambodia charges that the United States and South Vietnam have crossed the border and killed three Cambodians.
1981 The United States and Iran sign an accord on a hostage release in Algiers.
1983 The New Catholic code expands women's rights in the Church.
Born on January 19
1736 James Watt, Scottish inventor.
1807 Robert E. Lee, Confederate general during the American Civil War.
1809 Edgar Allan Poe, American author and poet ("Fall of the House of Usher," "The Tell-Tale Heart," "The Raven," "Annabel Lee.")
1839 Paul Cézanne, French post-Impressionist painter (Card Players
- See more at: http://www.historynet.com/today-in-history#sthash.HFEkgVxe.dpuf