The Great Get Together

[Crossie]

Division amongst people is because we don't have enough people speaking out for unity. ...

Your intro sentence triggered some thoughts on what fosters division.

1 Unrealistic expectations RE: unity
Everyone of us is an individual, with different characteristics, traits, opinions and believes. So what does unity actually mean, and how important is it really?

An example from Germany:
Many of those Germans who attend PEGIDA protest marches or vote for the far-right party AfD are in fact united with many muslim immigants or immigrants from former Eastern block countries in their very paternalistic view of society.
They also share a pretty similar view on the importance of a man's or a country's honor.

I'd say that unity is important only in one fundamental way: Civilized interaction; empathy; willingness to compromise. As for the rest, I believe it's possible to be 'united in diversity' if that makes sense.

2 Lack of empathy and unwilligness to compromise
Empathy (in the general sense to put yourself in somebody else's shoes) and compromise are often portrayed as a weakness, not a strength - by politicians, media but also voters.

Example from my childhood days:
Our class learned by the example of newspaper articles about different opinions and perspectives. We had copies of articles and used highlighters in different colors to mark different perspectives (e.g. employers vs. employees; economy vs environment). Most articles had a part in which arguments were discussed, weighted; compromises were sought to (ideally) create win-win situations. We needed to write essays to practice taking different perspectives (thesis, anti-thesis, synthesis).

Nowadays, I read the same newspapers and these kind of articles have become almost extinct. Politicians' debates and discussions hardly follow that way either (the Tories' Brexit discussions are a prime example out of many others).

The media loves to bash those who are willing to compromise, portray them as weak. A prime example is that the EU is portrayed as such because it often has difficulties to speak with one voice or needs quite some time to come to a unified position that is often - a compromise.

A 'the winner takes it all' mentality will always foster more division than a more balanced, generous, willing to compromise approach.

 

[Crossie]

Regarding the Americans I've been told numerous times that they won the war.

I've no doubt about that. It's just that my personal experience is different. As I've written in my first post, the sample size I can base my observations on is smaller than if I were living in the UK, or in the States in your case.

 

[Billy Blaggs]

I've no doubt about that. It's just that my personal experience is different. As I've written in my first post, the sample size I can base my observations on is smaller than if I were living in the UK, or in the States in your case.

I've heard the opposite to so it's not one way.

 

[T00lsh3d]

older white men from the north do not like younger eastern European EU immigrants

I worked in a snooker hall in the north east for over 5 years, so I've heard a lot of this and my general thoughts are:

The older white population (not just men) see migrants as work-shy freeloaders who have come to Britain to abuse and benefit system for their own gains.

That of course is not everyone's view but for the ones that don't like migrants, you can be damn sure this is high on their list of reasons

 

[Crossie]

The thing is though, integration is a 2 way street. If someone makes an effort to try to assimilate and that effort goes unappreciated or unreciprocated then that tends to lead to alienation and a longing for some kind of identity that can be shared.

That's so spot on and IMO a fundamental that doesn't get the attention it deserves.

@sammsky1 , I have no idea how to incorporate this into your brief but I think it's really important; as I understand it, the matter of immigration is one of the hottest potatos causing big divisions.
As a matter of fact, as long as the human species exists, there was immigration, for many different reasons. And it's often forgotten that what is perceived as a distinct culture (e.g. Bavarian), is in fact a fusion of different cultures.

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

I'd like to point out something non-traditional in terms of what is helping and in many cases driving the divisions and hatred we see in society today - be it towards immigrants, religious groups or people of different classes.

The media.

The media across the world has failed humanity - I know, it all sounds very dramatic

But, whether it's the tabloids in the UK, Fox News in the US or their equivalents in countries all over the world.

If the average person is bombarded constantly with messages/information/stories telling them - they're losing xyz - and so and so is to blame...a significant portion of society will eventually believe it.

After all the average person does not do research and even if they do...they all tend to look for things that will support what they already believe or want to believe.

I guarantee - if for research purposes - all print media in the UK decided to lead their headlines with positive stories about immigrants for a month - and there was polling done subsequently, there will be a noticeable bump in those with positive views towards immigrants.

EDIT:

An example of a different sort

In Bangladesh a section of the far right media has led a concerted effort to go after the religious minority and the secular nature of the country (the country fought a war with Pakistan and the 1st constitution BANNED religious parties from participating in politics).

Yet the media have very effectively stirred the pot so well - large portions of a country where 85% of the population are muslim, feel like Islam is under threat...from who? Hindus & Christians.

In reality - it is very much the opposite, but regardless of education, social background...I heard many muslims agreeing with the sentiment that hindus were getting special favors and while Islam and muslims were getting the short end of the stick

This is probably the most important post on this thread. Many people who have a negative opinion of other races don't have much contact with the races they have this negative view of and like you say it comes from the media or heresay.

The Holocaust didn't happen 'just because of the Nazi's and Hitler' as much as it's simplified. It simply wasn't an event that happened in a vacuum. For decades if not centuries there was all kinds of fables and stereotypes of Jews that made people dislike them. The story we know as Hansel & Gretle, where the witch lures them to a house and tries to murder and eat them, well this is an old story and in the original she's a Jewish woman. The concept of 'blood libel' is that Jewish people would capture and kill children, they were essentially the scapegoat for any children taken by and/or murdered by pedos. This among all manner of negative stereotypes were repeated ad nauseam

Brexit too didn't come out of nowhere. We had 20 or more years of stories deriding immigrants, muslims and how the EU banned our produce or equivilence. Why did Cameron think his pamphlet would stand up against the terrential onslaught from the media?

The most right wing media in America, further to the right than Fox is American talk radio and it isn't a coincidence this is throughout the red states.

This is me.

My family were made refugees - India took my folks in initially...and then they made it to the US. For what I hold in my heart - 'grudge' is too kind/mild a word.

Sorry if using the term 'grudge' in anyway minimilised this tragedy.

 

[711]

This doesn't seem likely and at best it is unproven. Fear can be inherited in rats but it is doubtful if this is the same thing as what we call fear in humans and we also don't seem to experience fear down the simplistic neural pathways (if that is the right term) that rats do. It is highly likely that the fear of other tribes that you are talking about is a social construct that is taught (consciously and/or unconsciously) and that is how this is passed down the generations - social inheritance - memes rather than genes. Much like we "inherit" religion.

This is a rather good summary I thought.

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(12)01435-2

When a child is born it doesn't fear anything. It cries not out of fear but simply due to a sudden change to its formerly very stable environment. It doesn't know who it's father and mother are - you could swap babies with other parents and they wouldn't know. They then grow very familiar with their immediate family and after that they learn almost everything from them and the surrounding environment which is also highly controlled by their immediate family. This is how we learn the things to fear in the same way we learn almost everything.

I'm not sure, but are you saying behaviour isn't inherited? Instinct certainly is, a bird that has never seen another of it's kind will feed in the same way. I probably don't know the difference between instinct and behaviour though. I suspect a group of puppies grown up separately from others would form a pack, whereas a group of kittens would separate. Isn't that behaviour? Do humans not have inherited behaviours of their own then? It would seem arrogant to think otherwise.

 

[JPRouve]

I'm not sure, but are you saying behaviour isn't inherited? Instinct certainly is, a bird that has never seen another of it's kind will feed in the same way. I probably don't know the difference between instinct and behaviour though. I suspect a group of puppies grown up separately from others would form a pack, whereas a group of kittens would separate. Isn't that behaviour? Do humans not have inherited behaviours of their own then? It would seem arrogant to think otherwise.

If I'm not mistaken, shepperd dogs are raised with sheeps in order to make them believe that the sheeps are their pack. They wouldn't form a pack with other dogs. IIRC for humans like dog upbringing has a bigger social influence than instinct though I guess that it's different in critical moments.

 

[711]

If I'm not mistaken, shepperd dogs are raised with sheeps in order to make them believe that the sheeps are their pack. They wouldn't form a pack with other dogs. IIRC for humans like dog upbringing has a bigger social influence than instinct though I guess that it's different in critical moments.

I see that as a good example, I've no doubt learning is the greater influence for humans, merely saying that instinct and behaviour might be inherited too.

 

[Wibble]

I'm not sure, but are you saying behaviour isn't inherited? Instinct certainly is, a bird that has never seen another of it's kind will feed in the same way. I probably don't know the difference between instinct and behaviour though. I suspect a group of puppies grown up separately from others would form a pack, whereas a group of kittens would separate. Isn't that behaviour? Do humans not have inherited behaviours of their own then? It would seem arrogant to think otherwise.

No I'm not saying that no behavior is ever inherited. Human babies do have an instinct to breast feed for example. What I am saying is that the evidence that fear of a specific thing e.g a different tribe in humans is not currently supported by the evidence.

Just because you could explain why fear of a different tribe could be inherited doesn't mean that it is inherited.

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

This doesn't seem likely and at best it is unproven. Fear can be inherited in rats but it is doubtful if this is the same thing as what we call fear in humans and we also don't seem to experience fear down the simplistic neural pathways (if that is the right term) that rats do. It is highly likely that the fear of other tribes that you are talking about is a social construct that is taught (consciously and/or unconsciously) and that is how this is passed down the generations - social inheritance - memes rather than genes. Much like we "inherit" religion.

This is a rather good summary I thought.

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(12)01435-2

When a child is born it doesn't fear anything. It cries not out of fear but simply due to a sudden change to its formerly very stable environment. It doesn't know who it's father and mother are - you could swap babies with other parents and they wouldn't know. They then grow very familiar with their immediate family and after that they learn almost everything from them and the surrounding environment which is also highly controlled by their immediate family. This is how we learn the things to fear in the same way we learn almost everything.

I'm talking about a young 1 year old who would be scared of men/women she wasn't familiar with coming near to her. She wasn't taught this so therefore it's innate is it not?

You're right the child doesn't know who it's parents are other than the fact it's familiar with it's parents. So my daughter didn't cry when her inner circle of familiar adults approached her, ie me, my partner and my mum. But any other adult including my dad and she was whaling.

Now obviously the sample size being 1 child that isn't conclusive evidence and merely anicdotal but I think there's something in it. And I do believe we're innately tribal beings.

 

[711]

No I'm not saying that no behavior is ever inherited. Human babies do have an instinct to breast feed for example. What I am saying is that the evidence that fear of a specific thing e.g a different tribe in humans is not currently supported by the evidence.

Just because you could explain why fear of a different tribe could be inherited doesn't mean that it is inherited.

Something about not being able to prove a negative I suppose, which would apply either way.

So you would need to get a load of babies, isolate them with feeding stations, and watch them grow up to see if they formed alliances and some sort of tribal system. The Nazis might have done it if they'd been around long enough!

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I have mentioned on here before that I grew up in Oldham which has a reputation as a hotbed of racial tension. There are large Pakistani and Bangladeshi populations here and the 2001 race riots started in those communities (with a big helping hand from racist English thugs). When I was at school the system was completely racially segregated. We had about 10 - 15 Muslim kids in our year whilst there were a few other schools in the area which were about 95% Muslim. After the riots and continuing tensions the council implemeted ethnicity quotas for all secondary schools so now all the schools are mixed. There has also been a lot more immigration from all over the world in the area since I left school so the schools are a lot more diverse. I do think this kind of forced integration should be the norm countrywide, if it isn't already.

An interesting article from The Guardian (with study data) from one of the mixed schools in one of the most socially challenged areas in the town:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/nov/05/integrated-school-waterford-academy-oldham

Once their education is over, many pupils will return to segregated neighbourhoods and their separate lives. But Hewstone likes to quote Thomas Paine: “The mind once enlightened cannot again become dark.” He argues that a dose of integration acts as a kind of inoculation for life – a permanent booster of tolerance and understanding.

Whilst actual integeration in the form of cross pollination and people living side by side may not be achieved, the familiarity and understanding gained by going through the secondary school system together could result in 'parallel lives' being lived successfully, which would be the essence of a true multicultural society.

On an anecdotal level, contrary to @WackyWengerWorld , the young Muslim kids I see in this area now are more Westernised in terms of some of the young girls wearing no hijab and the clothes they wear across the genders.

 

[Wibble]

If I'm not mistaken, shepperd dogs are raised with sheeps in order to make them believe that the sheeps are their pack. They wouldn't form a pack with other dogs. IIRC for humans like dog upbringing has a bigger social influence than instinct though I guess that it's different in critical moments.

Animal guard dogs do get exposed to sheep at an early age to imprint them so that they protect sheep but I'm not sure this is exactly as they would imprint/attach to other dogs. Guarding is a behavior we have artificially selected for rather than it being a purely natural pack behavior.

 

[Wibble]

I'm talking about a young 1 year old who would be scared of men/women she wasn't familiar with coming near to her. She wasn't taught this so therefore it's innate is it not?

You're right the child doesn't know who it's parents are other than the fact it's familiar with it's parents. So my daughter didn't cry when her inner circle of familiar adults approached her, ie me, my partner and my mum. But any other adult including my dad and she was whaling.

Now obviously the sample size being 1 child that isn't conclusive evidence and merely anicdotal but I think there's something in it. And I do believe we're innately tribal beings.

No. A 1 year old has learnt a million things already mainly from their family and she will have observed what makes her folks nervous. Family who look similar usually won't and people who look different may well do so largely because the parent learnt the same thing when they were very young.

We are very social animals that naturally live in extended families which is why we do tend towards living in tribes but an inherited tendency to live in such social groups says nothing about inheriting fear of other groupings. The evidence suggest that such fear is not inherited in humans.

 

[Wibble]

Something about not being able to prove a negative I suppose, which would apply either way.

So you would need to get a load of babies, isolate them with feeding stations, and watch them grow up to see if they formed alliances and some sort of tribal system. The Nazis might have done it if they'd been around long enough!

Not sure we will get that one past an ethics committee.

But it is not about proving a negative. It is about the evidence that has been collected suggesting that fear isn't inherited in humans except in the sense that we have inbuilt fight or flight physiologcal adaptations etc. Not a lack of evidence either way.

 

[Sultan]

This is me.

My family were made refugees - India took my folks in initially...and then they made it to the US. For what I hold in my heart - 'grudge' is too kind/mild a word.

My mother's family were forced to separate during the partition of India and my uncle killed. However, I have no ill feelings for those who took part in the separation of India or the inevitable communal riots that took place after the event. The decision makers will have been a few, and will have either had personal agendas or genuinely thought they were working in the best interests of the people they represented. In hindsight, it made a mess of the whole region with over a Million killed.

If we go back in history most countries will have a dark side.

PS: I was born in India. Live in the UK. I don't have allegiance to any one country in the world. I'm very much a globalists and believe borders are man made (stating the obvious).

 

[711]

Not sure we will get that one past an ethics committee.

But it is not about proving a negative. It is about the evidence that has been collected suggesting that fear isn't inherited in humans except in the sense that we have inbuilt fight or flight physiologcal adaptations etc. Not a lack of evidence either way.

Thanks. I'd have to spend weeks boning up on the subject and studying the quality of this evidence, which I'm not prepared to do I must admit, but my thoughts are that science is merely nibbling away at the edges of this at the moment.

 

[Drifter]

Lack of communities. To many cultures unwilling to integrate .That is also now spreading to British born Black and Whites.For me the Poles,Chinese ,Indian,Pakistani tend to stick to their own and have their own prejudices with other cultures. I've worked in the east end and it now as a big Bangladeshi community and what i get from those who grew up there is a sense of this is not their country any more. For some it was blatant racism for others it was nostalgia .

 

[golden_blunder]

Not sure my opinions will be of much value, but am happy to share them.

I think a good number of so-called racists are that way because of fear, and that fear is exacerbated by both ignorance and (I hate to say this) by fake news.

There are doubtless bigots and racists who are that way because their parents are - how far back would you need to go to find out why? I can't get my head round hating someone because of the colour of their skin, but there are people like that. Would be interesting to actually pin one down and ask his/her reasons.

Then there's historical hatred because your ancestors have been wronged - it's no surprise that Britain is hated because of what we've done through the centuries. I don't believe in using the term 'Great Britain' - it's not great in size, nor in actions. Much of our history is something to be ashamed of, not proud.

Interesting topic Sammsky - look forward to following it.

Agree with all of this. Particularly in the Brexit campaign some obvious lies were told in regards to nhs etc, which has stirred up some emotions in some voters. People have been misled, and in times like this or recessions the common denominator is always to blame the foreigners.

It all starts from the top, weak government with no clear plans allows discontent and racism to breed. Then we have elected politicians who don't represent ALL of their constituents and ALL of their local issues. It's about time they started to LEAD and spread hope. Too much doom and gloom around the UK.

Then we have the rise of UKIP, EL etc who beat nothing but the nationalism drums. Again they can only grow like fungus where the conditions exist for it.

There is nothing GREAT about Britain for a long time now

In regards to the historical part, this was very apt growing up in Northern Ireland. I was a proddy growing up in a predominantly catholic area, so most of my mates were catholic. We played football together, fought for each other. Some of them came along to watch the bands with me on 12th July. Never any sectarian issues between us. Yet if you watched the news all you'd see is screaming bitter old grannies shouting profanities, egging on young fellas to riot

So in my opinion in areas where there is unemployment, no hope, ways of thinking amongst young people is inherited. A suicide bomber doesn't generally grow up thinking that's what they want to do, at some point in their life they are inheriting some meone else's way of thinking.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Very interesting reading from all posters and there are parts of just about every post that I agree with.

I don't want to repeat too many things that people have already said so I thought a bit of a more personal outlook may hopefully assist.

I cannot give an opinion of what it's like to live in a tower block in northern England as I've never lived there so I'll give my observations of my personal experiences as a 61 year old who spent the first 51 years of my life predominantly in the northern home counties and London and 10 years living in south central France.

My parents were born in Rotherhithe in London and lived there during the war, my mother worked in the Woolwich Arsenal and my father volunteered for the RAF in 1941 when he was 18, my mother 2 years older. They survived the blitz and my father a plane crash, saw many people killed , friends and family.
My father worked his way up from office boy to financial controller of a big company in London.

My father was a businessman, voted Labour when he was younger and Tory after his 30s. My mother always suspicious of foreigners and has a hatred for Germans,partly understandable because of her experiences during the war but irrational later on as the only German she has ever met close-up was the daughter-in-law of one of her friends who she thought was "a nice girl".
My father as a business man travelled a lot to foreign countries, met many nationalities and had friends of different backgrounds and had no animosity towards any group. Voted pro EEC in the 70s as I did and had he still been alive would have certainly voted Remain in the referendum.

Anyway, in the early 50s they bought their first house in Lewisham SE London and sold it in 1958 when I was two, I don't remember too much about that time but they told me they sold it to a family from the West Indies who they said were very pleasant. At that time there were few non-white British families living there and some, not all, of their neighbours refused to speak to my parents after they had sold the house to a Caribbean family. The man who bought the house was grateful to my father because he had tried previously to buy a couple of other houses meeting the price but the owners would not sell their houses to someone of a different skin colour, or put in a rather more nasty tone.

We moved to St Albans in Hertfordshire where I basically spent all my growing up years, in a 3 bed semi on a very pleasant estate on the edge of town, five minute walk from the countryside and spent an idyllic childhood.
There were no foreigners , no people of different skin-tones so people living there had little contact with anyone of a different culture. At 11 I won a scholarship to a private school. the school is adjacent to the cathedral and we spent three morning assemblies a week in the cathedral. Out of the 600 odd pupils nearly all were Protestant, there were maybe half a dozen Catholics and one Jew who were sent to a classroom while we were in the cathedral. That seemed odd to me at the time.

As a present for gaining the scholarship my father took me to Paris when I fell in love immediately with France, over the coming years my father took me on business trips to various countries and I was lucky to experience different cultures and meeting people of many nationalities. Fantastic.

After finishing my education I toured all round Europe with a friend and happened to meet my future wife whilst in France back in the mid 70s and have been together ever since. It was a shock to my parents when I turned up back home at 5am one morning to announce I was going to marry a french girl.

Got my first proper job as a trainee manager in North London and within 6 weeks was a fully fledged manager and spent the next few years being a relief manager and permanent manager all across the North London area with many immigrant communities and never experienced any problem with anyone , sometimes I was the only white person in the vicinity but I found that people accepted you for who you were as a person, not the colour of your skin and not your religious beliefs, which is the way I treat people and would hope everyone else would as well. Sadly this is far from the case.

When I was 29 I decided on a career change and became involved in international trading , exporting and importing which meant a lot of travelling throughout Europe Africa and the Middle East, met thousands of different people of all colours, nationalities, religions , made friends with different people as I did in my previous job.

I do not care what nationality a person is, I do not care what religion that person believes in, if I want to associate or be friends with someone it is how I find that particular person.

I now live in France (for the last 10 years) but continued to be MD of two small UK companies until last year and spent a couple of years about 5 years ago as DG of a medium sized French company.

Maybe the above is a lot of waffle but a background to my opinions and beliefs.

When I go back to the UK I feel like I don't belong and am so glad to get back to my home in France but I have felt like this since the 70s and was lucky enough to be able have the chance to be able to live where I do even if I had to wait till I was in my 50s.

Living in the UK, as people have said, they come home from work, shut themselves away in a box and might possibly say hello to their next door neighbour if they happen to be in the garden at the same time. Something like Oates said when he was living in a small village. I live in a small French village (700 citizens including surrounding hamlets) , everyone knows everyone, everyone talks to everyone, thriving community spirit, there's always something going on in the village hall, doesn't matter if you're green or purple. Everyone is made welcome and I have never ever felt unwelcome by anybody in all my time here and neither previously having spent a lot of time with my wife's family in another part of France.
That doesn't mean that I like everyone, those I don't like I just avoid.

I've decided to live in France and I respect the culture of France and expect whoever decides to do the same should also have the same respect

Integration of communities I believe is important, British go to live abroad, quite often they keep to their small communities, yes they feel "safer??" in numbers which is understandable, but they should integrate , make an effort to learn the language, join in, it's very much appreciated.All efforts are appreciated.

This should apply to the UK, however, would the British or should I say English appreciate the intrusion of foreigners or different cultures into their little worlds, I somehow doubt this. But I do feel the immigrant communities should make an extra effort to show that that they are not some threatening group trying to do harm to the community.

If people choose to go to live to another country whether it is non-Brits going to live in the UK or Brits living abroad they should adapt to the culture of that country, otherwise why go there at all, but still retaining their own culture without forcing it on other people

Modern technology has made people more introvert and cocooned and always found the English especially more reserved, frightened of what others in their same "group" may think of them. It's like a sheep mentality, if someone of an extreme opinion makes a loud noise, the others will all follow , trying not to be different.

Another area is religion, having been brought up a protestant , married a catholic girl, having friends of muslim, buddhist and hindu during my life, I am actually an athiest. I don't venture into religious forums on here. I don't discuss religion.
I actually do despise religion , it is totally nonsensical to me and I detest people trying to force religion down people's throats.

I have no objection to people having their own beliefs if it gives them comfort or help but as long as it doesn't affect other people, whether it's people saying you're only a good person if you're a Christian or Jehovah's witnesses saying you will go to hell if you do not believe or extremist islamists wanting to kill infidels. Believe what you want but don't harm other people or interfere in other people's lives because of that belief.

I'll stop here (for now)

 

[Jippy]

Lack of communities. To many cultures unwilling to integrate .That is also now spreading to British born Black and Whites.For me the Poles,Chinese ,Indian,Pakistani tend to stick to their own and have their own prejudices with other cultures. I've worked in the east end and it now as a big Bangladeshi community and what i get from those who grew up there is a sense of this is not their country any more. For some it was blatant racism for others it was nostalgia .

I'd agree with this. As @oates was saying, you had open doors and people looked out for each other. We still had this back in the '80s. I remember some kid had bloodied my nose and my neightbour, 'aunty' Denise saw me and took me into hers and parched me up- my folks were at work. We just walked into each other's houses if we wanted a chat too- unthinkable now.
We lost this somewhere along the way- some will blame immigration- the 'blame', for want of a better word, lies on all sides, eg @Penna's observations of how the Asian communities became more insular in Bradford over the years.
There are multiple factors at work- the bigger question is whether you could ever hope to get back to the old days and let's face it, it's an outside bet.

 

[sammsky1]

I am not a 2nd generation immigrant.

I come from a country who had a long history of people immigrating though. My family itself wasn't immune to that and I have family and friends.

The first generation is pretty much like me. Actually they are more grateful then I am in a ridiculously grateful sort of way. They are very proud of their new citizenship (ie whatever their new country do = good) and when some of them do return to Malta you'll see them talking highly about the place they were in, they would place the country's flags on their houses roof etc. I've lost count of how many named their house Canada, London, Australia or New York (tbf my house is Old Trafford so I shouldn't really be naming them at all). They also remain pretty much involved into the country's politics (politics and football are sacred for a Maltese) and are quite passionate in it.

The second generation can still talk Maltese although its very evident that its his second language. They would spot you as a Maltese way before you can spot them. They speak, eat, think, act and marry locals. They would visit the islands once or twice in their lives but that is all

The third generation are locals who would barely have any recollection of Malta.

I feel that many people immigrate in a wrong way. They leave their home country, they settle in an area were there are plenty of their citizens around and they keep to their way of life, their traditions etc. Anything that is alien for them is wrong and they insist on living according to ways they live in total disrespect of the new society they are part off. FFS some barely even bother to learn the language which, in my opinion, is unacceptable. If you don't want to be part of that society and embrace that community with the good and bad things then why the feck you go there?

And before anyone say that I am being anti this or anti that I assure you that the Brits themselves make lousy immigrants (or expats, because a British citizen can't be an immigrant). So my rant is not about race or religion

Broadly speaking EU migrants fit this 1st generation profile right now. South and East British Asians and British Afro Caribbean's fully established in 2nd generation and emerging in third generation. British Jew's are well established in the 3rd generation and many have products of a 4th generation. Of course people from all demographics arrive for the first time every day, but undergo an accelerated process of adjustment because the path is laid out for them.

After the first generation, people born into a country, Eg UK, have legal right to live life in whatever cultural way they like, and that should be respected by all. No need for anyone else to adopt that different culture, but citizens should be under no moral obligation to live life according to the dominant culture. Thats partly what a free society is based upon.

And to be fair, the British state are a true example to the world in terms of adjusting the law. More work is required to ensure all citizens live by the law of the land, though as I wrote in another post, this is also generational to people aged 40+ in UK right now.

In 20 years time, the white native British culture will simply be one of many cultures that will co-exist; some will live fusions and others will remain within one silo and both options should be considered as OK.

 

[sammsky1]

There were other phrases, which I cringe at, looking back. Eg Chinese takeaways routinely known as Chinkys- @Grinner will remember this. Unbranded cola sold at aforementioned corner shops known as Paki sweat.
It might sound odd, but as a kid it wasn't said with malice, it was just what you learnt.
I think as I got older and mingled with the one Indian kid in my class, who I got on with, it became apparent the words weren't acceptable.
When I was at uni, once or twice things I said raised eyebrows among more integrated southern friends, so I learnt a bit more.
It was driven by ignorance more than hate, I must stress.
Hull was a weird place to grow up. In London I have an amazing Turkish deputy, a an English/Sri Lankan online editor, Iranian reporter and I've just hired a Somalian and a Greek in the last month. I see diversity as a strength, despite having grown up in the dark ages of East Yorks in the '80s, so there is hope for us all.
My mum's MP is Brexit minister David Davis to give you a clue about my upbringing.

Those weren't unique to Hull Plenty of that in London and the south. Add to that the inter-race slurs: Eg blacks or Asians calling westernised blacks or Asians an uncle Tom, coconut or Bounty bar.

Racial slurs have been around in this country and indeed the world since man first experienced difference. Wiki has a great list, and once you get past the idiocy, many are actually quite hilarious in their stupidity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

 

[sammsky1]

It all started with the invention of the hyperlink. Why would you read a long book when you can read a sentence, then click on something that leads you to a completely different topic. Rinse and repeat.

Talk about unintended consequences! I don't think leaders, inventors and big businesses do enough due diligence on the consequences of their actions.

The creation of ISIS is the most serious 'unintended consequence the west faces today, but in hindsight, it should have been easy to hypothesise in 2002 when Iraq was invaded. Anyways, for another thread!

 

[sammsky1]

Why should people mix with different people at all?

The need to belong to and be accepted by an in-group is in our nature. Identifying with an in-group can also mean wariness of and distance from out-groups. Multiculturalism, interfaith and similar views run counter to this innate need to belong. So you will always have a battle on your hands trying to heal divisions. As such, I would say if a campaign like yours could come up with really persuasive reasons why we should abandon our clans and embrace 'others', this would help those who do not mix because they simply have no reason to do so.


For the record, I think your campaign is a fantastic idea and mixing with others is fantastic.

Pretty much the same narrative amongst the uneducated and bigots in the UK. "Shariah is taking over. Democracy is under threat". I'm not sure why and how 3% of UK's Muslim population can overthrow democracy. More to the point even majority Muslim nations do not have Shariah laws.

there is no need to mix at all.

The issue is manipulative power seekers who create fear by alluding that 'different' people seek to impose their culture over you. The Islamaphobia trolls exploit tactic all the time with pervavsive propaganda that Muslims seek to impose 'Sharia law' in the UK, which is a complete absurdity as @Sultan point's out in his post quoted above.

On the 2nd bolded part, do you have any idea's that would be persuasive?

 

[sammsky1]

Your intro sentence triggered some thoughts on what fosters division.

1 Unrealistic expectations RE: unity
Everyone of us is an individual, with different characteristics, traits, opinions and believes. So what does unity actually mean, and how important is it really?

An example from Germany:
Many of those Germans who attend PEGIDA protest marches or vote for the far-right party AfD are in fact united with many muslim immigants or immigrants from former Eastern block countries in their very paternalistic view of society.
They also share a pretty similar view on the importance of a man's or a country's honor.

I'd say that unity is important only in one fundamental way: Civilized interaction; empathy; willingness to compromise. As for the rest, I believe it's possible to be 'united in diversity' if that makes sense.

.

Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamisation of the West (Patriotische Europäer gegen die Islamisierung des Abendlandes), abbreviated PEGIDA is a German nationalist, anti-Islam, far-right political movement
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegida

 

[Crossie]

Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamisation of the West (Patriotische Europäer gegen die Islamisierung des Abendlandes), abbreviated PEGIDA is a German nationalist, anti-Islam, far-right political movement
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegida

Does this mean that you would you like me to expand on PEGIDA?

 

[sammsky1]

Does this mean that you would you like me to expand on PEGIDA?

Well only because you said pegida was united with Muslims immigrants and Turkish but I have never thought of it that way.

 

[sammsky1]

I worked in a snooker hall in the north east for over 5 years, so I've heard a lot of this and my general thoughts are:

The older white population (not just men) see migrants as work-shy freeloaders who have come to Britain to abuse and benefit system for their own gains.

That of course is not everyone's view but for the ones that don't like migrants, you can be damn sure this is high on their list of reasons

Because although some migrants do abuse the benefits systems (by working in cash jobs, or jobs that declare lower incomes to the tax man whilst also claiming benefits) being a work-shy freeloader is an impossibility. They have no hereditary or residual income to fall back on so must work very hard to survive.

So that belief is wholly false and just a lie to justify more fundamental discriminatory opinion.

Do these people also view non working white British people doing the same?

 

[Penna]

Because although migrants do do abuse the benefits systems (by working in cash jobs, or jobs that declare lower incomes to the tax man whilst also claiming benefits) being work-shy freeloaders is an impossibility. They have no hereditary or residual income to fall back on so much work to survive.

So that belief is wholly false and just a lie to justify more fundamental discriminatory opinion. Do these people also view non working white British people doing the same?

There's a hierarchy of contempt, I think. And someone will always say "I've paid into the system, they haven't". This is of course sometimes completely inaccurate.

 

[sammsky1]

Sorry if using the term 'grudge' in anyway minimilised this tragedy.

He is referring to the Pakistan civil war of 1971, in which millions of Bengali's were slaughtered by Pakistani soldiers and led to the creation of Bangladesh.

The insane cruelty of Pakistani army on their own civilians had never been seen on such scale. It included using rape of men and women as a military tool to 'genetically wipe out' the Bengali's.

In what has been described by Jenneke Arens as a deliberate attempt to destroy an ethnic group, many of those assaulted were raped, murdered and then bayoneted in the genitalia.

Adam Jones, a political scientist, has said that one of the reasons for the mass rapes was to undermine Bengali society through the "dishonoring" of Bengali women and that some women were raped until they died or were killed following repeated attacks. T

he Pakistani army also raped Bengali males. The men, when passing through a checkpoint, would be ordered to prove they were circumcised, and this is where the rapes usually happened. The International Commission of Jurists concluded that the atrocities carried out by the Pakistan armed forces "were part of a deliberate policy by a disciplined force".

The writer Mulk Raj Anand said of the Pakistani army actions, "The rapes were so systematic and pervasive that they had to be conscious Army policy, "planned by the West Pakistanis in a deliberate effort to create a new race" or to dilute Bengali nationalism".

Amita Malik, reporting from Bangladesh following the Pakistan armed forces surrender, wrote that one West Pakistani soldier said: "We are going. But we are leaving our Seed behind".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_Bangladesh_Liberation_War

 

[Crossie]

Well only because you said pegida was united with Muslims immigrants and Turkish but I have never thought of it that way.

In that particular paternalistic view on society these two groups are much closer than voters of the Green party, SPD or The Left, hell, also many if not most CDU voters are. Women should stay at home, give birth, raise the kids, running the household, no higher education necessary, if she's working she shouldn't earn more than the husband, husband is head of the family, ... you get the idea.

(Obviously not all muslim or Eastern Europe immigrants think that way but many.)

My underlying point is that what unity constitutes is a matter of perspective, depending on which topic you look at. You can be united on one matter and totally divided or opposed by another. IMO it's therefore necessary to specify to be united on which topic.

 

[sammsky1]

In regards to the historical part, this was very apt growing up in Northern Ireland. I was a proddy growing up in a predominantly catholic area, so most of my mates were catholic. We played football together, fought for each other. Some of them came along to watch the bands with me on 12th July. Never any sectarian issues between us.

Yet if you watched the news all you'd see is screaming bitter old grannies shouting profanities, egging on young fellas to riot

Thanks for sharing. What motivated the Irish people who committed terrorist acts? As you say, Irish factions have co existed forever; its one thing to be misled by politicians, its quite another to actually kill your fellow countrymen. I guess Im asking, what psychological factors caused so much hate?

 

[Sultan]

He is referring to the Pakistan civil war, in which millions of Bengali's were slaughtered by Pakistani soldiers and led to the creation of Bangladesh in 1971.

The insane cruelty of Pakistani army on their own civilians had never been seen on such scale. It included using rape of men and women as a military tool to 'genetically wipe out' the Bengali's.

I remember the conflict very well. I was working in a Bangladeshi restaurant whilst still at school. The restaurant kitchen radio was on permanently listening to war commentary.

 

[sammsky1]

I remember the conflict very well. I was working in a Bangladeshi restaurant whilst still at school. The restaurant kitchen radio was on permanently listening to war commentary.

My point being it created a different set of psychological issues, in addition to those from 1947 partition of India.

Bring this back to this discussion, inter- 'India' hate has also had impact on UK! There are plenty of issues between British browns that stem from another continent ... what a minefield!

 

[T00lsh3d]

Because although migrants do do abuse the benefits systems (by working in cash jobs, or jobs that declare lower incomes to the tax man whilst also claiming benefits) being work-shy freeloaders is an impossibility. They have no hereditary or residual income to fall back on so much work to survive.

So that belief is wholly false and just a lie to justify more fundamental discriminatory opinion. Do these people also view non working white British people doing the same?

I don't think this belief is based on knowledge or evidence, it's based on ignorance. I don't think a detailed breakdown of the benefits system has been scrutinised first if you get what I mean.
This isn't my outlook by the way, I've just heard it enough times to be able to answer one of the questions in the OP.
As far as non-working whites, I guess they're probably given more leniency, or at least considered on a case by case basis.

 

[Jippy]

Those weren't unique to Hull Plenty of that in London and the south. Add to that the inter-race slurs: Eg blacks or Asians calling westernised blacks or Asians an uncle Tom, coconut or Bounty bar.

Racial slurs have been around in this country and indeed the world since man first experienced difference. Wiki has a great list, and once you get past the idiocy, many are actually quite hilarious in their stupidity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

That list is so long! A few made me laugh, my wife too. Most are so childish tbh.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

@sammsky1

I don't know if you had a look at my post #93 or not but it contains details from a real life study on how multiculturalism might work in the UK going forward.

 

[golden_blunder]

Thanks for sharing. What motivated the Irish people who committed terrorist acts? As you say, Irish factions have co existed forever; its one thing to be misled by politicians, its quite another to actually kill your fellow countrymen. I guess Im asking, what psychological factors caused so much hate?

Good question Sammy, and I'm sure that its well covered in various books, publications, news articles etc by now.

From my own opinions, see below, but I will preface that by saying its by no means that simple and I'm sure that there will be many posters who want to add to this from their own experience or may disagree with some of my thoughts, observations or opinions.

Republican View;
Keep in mind that there are hundreds of years of British oppression and killings that still rankle through generations of many Irish families. Read about the Cromwell conquest of Ireland for example and you will understand why many in the area have republican views. This gets handed on down the decades from parents to children.

That being said, many have taken up arms, not because of historical romantic ideas but because someone close to them has been mistreated or killed, either by the British army, or by the Police (which was predominantly protestant for many years. Though I personally knew a few Catholics who were serving Police officers). Others have taken up arms because of Government policies such as internment without charge and others because they feel that they are protecting their communities from loyalist gunmen. For example you had the likes of the 'Shankhill butchers' roaming the streets of Belfast looking for victims to torture and kill just for simply being a Catholic in he wrong place at the wrong time.

Other things such as traditional marches through certain areas add to the mix, or being discriminated against by Civil service departments such as Housing simply because the family is Catholic.

Loyalist View;
Have all been born in a British state and don't want to be Irish, fiercely protective of their identity. Many could be descendants of 'planters' (read, Plantation of Ulster)
Many would have seen or known someone who has been affected by IRA violence in their community or maybe had a relative or friend who had joined the Police and been murdered. A lot of the murders of Police officers didn't happen on duty, it happened off-duty, bombs planted under family cars, shot dead on their own doorstep or in their beds, abducted from their own homes etc. Also other examples of civilians being murdered by IRA simply because they worked indirectly for 'security forces' (which bare in mind were seen as being British). I know of one family, a lad I worked with, his dad was a milk man who delivered milk to an army base. His family was held up in their own home, including the lad I know, then as a child, whilst they waited for their dad to come home from his delivery runs. Knowing full well, that he'd be murdered as soon as he got home, which he was. Many examples of this kind of thing happening, not just in protestant homes either. One Catholic civilian was forced to drive a van packed with explosives into an army checkpoint outside of Derry on the border with Donegal. He tried to jump from the van and warn the soldiers but the bomb was triggered remotely. His 'crime' was delivering bread to Police and Army stations.

There is a LOT more that has happened on both sides. All of it generates fear & hatred, dividing people who may have been moderate before. And as we see from various conflicts, fear leads to anger, anger leads to.. (and so on). The cycle continues.

In any conflict situation there needs to be open dialogue, flexibility and a willingness to see into how the other side comes to the point that they are at. There needs to be clear government direction/assistance and crucially for me at least, there needs to be fresh ideas. That's why I'd love to see more young people take up politics and do so with a clean, open mind. Make their own decisions, not be swayed by status quo.