yeah, it will be amazing if people open up and tell us personal stories and experiences.
Its gold dust for me. Have many insights already
The Great Get Together
- Thread starter sammsky1
- Start date
Its gold dust for me. Have many insights already
Thanks for answering the brief and answering my actual question!! hint hint other poster's
Your segmentation of 'belonging' is the cleanest I've seen, it's fantastic, thanks! Would you mind giving me the best example of each one, in your opinion?
What causes the fisherman to ignore genuine causes for his problems and blame invented ones instead. Surely he know the truth so how does he live with his own intellectual dishonesty?
The fishing point is mixing up two separate issues, overfishing and access. British waters could be overfished whether they are accessible to the the British only, or to the whole EU. Similarly they could be regulated for sustainability whether accessible to the British alone or the whole EU. You can't blame fishermen being interested in 'ownership' rights wherever they are from, Hull or Spain.
To answer your question there are countless examples of people choosing to ignore scientific evidence if it doesn't suit their immediate aims, fishing being just one. As it happens there are sustainable fish stocks in British waters, one hopes constant study and regulation will improve them, whoever is allowed to fish there.
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This is a very powerful insight for me.
In a non internet world, we had exposure to good and bad stuff, had to endure lots of stuff we did not like, to enjoy what we liked. Take music, you had to listen to the entire charts or watch all of Top of the Pops, not knowing if your favourite song would play. You'd have to watch all of Match of the Day, or read the entire newspaper to find stuff that interested you. Point being, not only did you have to tolerate things you did not like, you also gained a more worldly view.
Compare that to now, where we are consumed in isolated pleasure silo's. The echo chamber is all consuming: personalised playlists, bingeing on Netflix, only watching Man United games, take away delivery to your door ,the list goes on and on.
And so we become intolerant of EVERYTHING WE DISLIKE. There is no way new ideas, influences or thinking can enter.
Added to that is your point about ever reducing human contact, and its no surprise that 'intolerance is on the rise'
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Not trying to evade the question, but I'm not EDL or anywhere near, so I'm not the best person to answer. I would hazard a guess that it's because they're different, in appearance, customs and language. You would be better reading what the EDL actually say themselves though, rather than take it from someone else.
To introduce a new complication, I was with some neighbours commenting on some new people who had moved in recently, the general opinion being 'they're Asian, but it's alright, they're Hindus, not Muslim'. I wonder how typical that is, or just a one-off.
Why should people mix with different people at all?
The need to belong to and be accepted by an in-group is in our nature. Identifying with an in-group can also mean wariness of and distance from out-groups. Multiculturalism, interfaith and similar views run counter to this innate need to belong. So you will always have a battle on your hands trying to heal divisions. As such, I would say if a campaign like yours could come up with really persuasive reasons why we should abandon our clans and embrace 'others', this would help those who do not mix because they simply have no reason to do so.
For the record, I think your campaign is a fantastic idea and mixing with others is fantastic.
The need to belong to and be accepted by an in-group is in our nature. Identifying with an in-group can also mean wariness of and distance from out-groups. Multiculturalism, interfaith and similar views run counter to this innate need to belong. So you will always have a battle on your hands trying to heal divisions. As such, I would say if a campaign like yours could come up with really persuasive reasons why we should abandon our clans and embrace 'others', this would help those who do not mix because they simply have no reason to do so.
For the record, I think your campaign is a fantastic idea and mixing with others is fantastic.
It all started with the invention of the hyperlink. Why would you read a long book when you can read a sentence, then click on something that leads you to a completely different topic. Rinse and repeat.
This an interesting hypothesis but I don't think it is true: all the data seems to indicate younger people are much more tolerant than older people. This is reverse what you would expect if your hypothesis was correct since young people are more exposed to the personalised services you speak of.
I'd like to point out something non-traditional in terms of what is helping and in many cases driving the divisions and hatred we see in society today - be it towards immigrants, religious groups or people of different classes.
The media.
The media across the world has failed humanity - I know, it all sounds very dramatic
But, whether it's the tabloids in the UK, Fox News in the US or their equivalents in countries all over the world.
If the average person is bombarded constantly with messages/information/stories telling them - they're losing xyz - and so and so is to blame...a significant portion of society will eventually believe it.
After all the average person does not do research and even if they do...they all tend to look for things that will support what they already believe or want to believe.
I guarantee - if for research purposes - all print media in the UK decided to lead their headlines with positive stories about immigrants for a month - and there was polling done subsequently, there will be a noticeable bump in those with positive views towards immigrants.
EDIT:
An example of a different sort
In Bangladesh a section of the far right media has led a concerted effort to go after the religious minority and the secular nature of the country (the country fought a war with Pakistan and the 1st constitution BANNED religious parties from participating in politics).
Yet the media have very effectively stirred the pot so well - large portions of a country where 85% of the population are muslim, feel like Islam is under threat...from who? Hindus & Christians.
In reality - it is very much the opposite, but regardless of education, social background...I heard many muslims agreeing with the sentiment that hindus were getting special favors and while Islam and muslims were getting the short end of the stick
The media.
The media across the world has failed humanity - I know, it all sounds very dramatic
But, whether it's the tabloids in the UK, Fox News in the US or their equivalents in countries all over the world.
If the average person is bombarded constantly with messages/information/stories telling them - they're losing xyz - and so and so is to blame...a significant portion of society will eventually believe it.
After all the average person does not do research and even if they do...they all tend to look for things that will support what they already believe or want to believe.
I guarantee - if for research purposes - all print media in the UK decided to lead their headlines with positive stories about immigrants for a month - and there was polling done subsequently, there will be a noticeable bump in those with positive views towards immigrants.
EDIT:
An example of a different sort
In Bangladesh a section of the far right media has led a concerted effort to go after the religious minority and the secular nature of the country (the country fought a war with Pakistan and the 1st constitution BANNED religious parties from participating in politics).
Yet the media have very effectively stirred the pot so well - large portions of a country where 85% of the population are muslim, feel like Islam is under threat...from who? Hindus & Christians.
In reality - it is very much the opposite, but regardless of education, social background...I heard many muslims agreeing with the sentiment that hindus were getting special favors and while Islam and muslims were getting the short end of the stick
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The media.
The media across the world has failed humanity - I know, it all sounds very dramatic
But, whether it's the tabloids in the UK, Fox News in the US or their equivalents in countries all over the world.
If the average person is bombarded constantly with messages/information/stories telling them - they're losing xyz - and so and so is to blame...a significant portion of society will eventually believe it.
After all the average person does not do research and even if they do...they all tend to look for things that will support what they already believe or want to believe.
It's not just telling news these days. It has become entertainment, making an art of telling the story in a slick, seductive and entertaining manner. It has become a central place in our lives. It shapes and controls our ideas, thoughts, and outlook. The media machine claims to be objective, honest but suffers on many occasions from malice and prejudice. It's there to serve its own purpose.
Unfortunately, it remains our only means of knowing the news. We can hardly shut it off but we cannot continue business as usual either. We just need to become wise and intelligent consumers of the media.
Are we not? I think we're born fearing others, my young daughter would cry when any male who wasn't me came anywhere near her. We're tribal beings, who've had millenia of being attacked and plundered by rival tribes. I believe it's an innate survival instinct to fear others and even hate others. Modern ethics tells us we don't need this and it's wrong but we still see it come out in the tribalism of football at times.
My background I believe gives a certain perspective, I'm an ex-white muslim, with a Nigerian Christian partner/fiance teacher (who has a Muslim mother) living in Bradford. We have 2 children and we're moving because:
1) We want better schools
2) The behaviour in schools with isn't of a good standard and the level of the children's performance will drag down more gifted and talented children.
3) The integration between the Pakistani children/adults with white/black people isn't great and they are unlikely to be social with us or our children.
4) There is discrimination from the Pakistani community to none Pakistanis, whether white, black or Bangladeshi.
5). We've been harrassed by a mentally ill neighbour which I think is racial and he seems to have singled us out and we're the only mixed race couple on the street.
Anyway so I'll tell you my experience of certain discrimination I've witnessed from each groups:
In school the Pakistani lads I knew were racially bullied, beaten up by several lads at a time and I suffered the same for having Pakistani mates. It was way before September 11th and I don't think it amounted to anything more than unadulterated racism. In turn white boys who walked through the poorest Pakistani area were set upon for no reason. These were the days when the BNP would threaten to come down to Pakistani areas ofcourse. So you could say it's no wonder that Pakistani's 'stick to their own'. When I worked in IT in Leeds there was a similar attitude by most of the other white guys throughout the office who had a problem with Pakistanis. They made the discrimination now between Muslims and other races though. 'We're alright with them, it's the Pakistani's we don't like, Hindu's hate them too' and when they were talking about 'fighting terror', comments flew around such as 'they should bomb Bradford'. Essentially Pakistanis were blamed for Islamic terrorism. But the P word still flew around occasionally, albeit under their breath. I didn't like it but being a lower entry level IT telesales I never really spoke up. I didn't like it there and it's partly why I've been self employed since leaving there in 2003.
The extremist Saudi sponsored Wahabbi's parrot the importance of war mongering side of Islam has become more common. I used to goto talks by such a speaker, the now banned Sheikh Faisal, who talked about many issues but always managed to refer back to Jihad. One of my friends, moved away and continued to goto such talks and said he was going on Jihad, I never heard from him again. The whole toxic message becomes synonymous with the whole group of people for many, ie, "it's the Muslims again" and ISIS and Al Queda does have it's precidence in the Sirah, the biographies of The Prophet Muhammed. Anyway back then there rightfully was always Muslim sympathies to Palestinian causes and now that will be extended to Afganistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya etc etc. Alongside the Jihadi rhetoric, in the mind of the disenfranchised young Muslim as a country Britain and America are unethical and rightful enemies.
In the past I never noticed Muslim women wearing the nicab. Now it's becoming more and more common. Is this religious extremism or a competition to be 'the most Islamic' in their family? Probably a bit of both. It seems to be anti-social though. One thing that bothered me recently is that I couldn't take my daughter to the local swimming pool in the time I had off because there was so many 'women only' or 'women and children only' swimming sessions, which are catering to the local Pakistani community but in turn discriminating against families who want to swim together. My fiance describes it as 'pandering'. I'd imagine other people get more annoyed than myself.
So on other forums I frequent there are many who are biggoted against muslims, believe Islam is a vioent religion (it can be) and don't believe it's compatible with Western society. I live in an area that has more white people bordering on council estates. On the under cross over there is not particularly well thought out racist graphiti 'Muslims Stink' etc. There's a long running divide though. I let my Pakistani mates brother and wife stay with me for a bit when they had a family fallout. My mum overheard the then nextdoor neighbour saying 'the P words are moving in'. I don't think that's anything more than 'them and us' type of attitude.
Many Muslims consider fellow Muslims to be brothers/sisters. I liked that becoming a Muslim I suddenly had lots of friends. But this in turn works as form of discrimination, ie I'll be social and friendly with Muslims but not with none Muslims. Believers believe all none believers are promised eternal hellfire. Although in turn you'll have some Pakistani Muslims who socialise and cook their next door neighbours curries but it's a lesser level of social interaction and their best friends will invariably be Muslims. I haven't told any of my Muslim friends I don't practise Islam anymore because of this and I don't really talk to them much anymore.
Now there are those Pakistanis that are actively mysoginistic and outright racist. So I've had pakistani friends who would use the phrase 'dirty white girls' quite often. They saw none Muslim girls were seen as 'lesser' and 'for sex'. Now not all Pakistani men do and typically it's usually less religious ones as many don't have sex before marriage. Allot of religious lads didn't have sex before marriage. But I had a few friends who were even plotting to gangrape a white girl who was our friend, it never amounted to anything in the end. But there have been many stories of gangrapes going around and obviously the Rotherham scandal are the fruition of this type of mind set. Whenever these lads get into trouble the families blame the victim for 'tempting him', 'sinful impure women' etc.
Now I used to have a Peruvian girlfriend who could be mistaken for Pakistani and we lived in a Pakistani area near to Bradford Uni. She was abused and called a whore and asked 'do you like white cock' by an abusive Pakistani man in the area we lived, assuming she was 'one of his own'. Another time 2 Pakistani blokes pulled over and tried to talk to her when we were together from their car. I walked up to the car and told them 'she's not Pakistani she doesn't speak Punjabi' to which they drove off and shouted 'white bastard' out of the window. Now I knew another Pakistani girl who said her white boyfriend had a gun pulled on him and told to 'stay away from our women' when they were out.
There's the issue of Bangladeshi and Pakistani integration. I'm not sure how it is these days but 25 years ago my mum taught both in school and had very unhappy parents from both countries who didn't want their children sitting with or playing with children from the oppossing country. This is ofcourse nearer to the time of the 70s civil war where Pakistani carried out a genocide/ethnic cleansing including an army instructed mass gangrape and mass impregation of Bangladeshi women. I know some people in their 20s/30s who's families were affected still hold those grudges to this day. But in college I had a group of Bangladeshi and Pakistani friends that got along but there was always banter about cultural differences.
People of the sub-continent generally consider paler skins to be better and dark skins to be unattractive and even lesser people. So my black partner has had racial abuse from Pakistani children in her school. Darker Pakistanis are jokingly mocked. Bangladeshi's being darker were considered 'lesser' so that was part of their justification for the whole ethnic cleansing. Today I still note Pakistani women boastfully refer to themselves as 'light skin' and 'pale', so in turn you question if they consider 'dark' people inferior?
I also knew some Bangladeshi's who think of Pakistani's as untrustworthy as do allot of Pakistani's to be fair. My Pakistani friends always told me that a Pakistani would always rather buy a house/car or do business with a white person because they'd think they'd be less likely to get ripped off. It's an enduring stereotype stemming from people coming from impoverished begginings in a very corrupt country. Still Bradford and Birmingham have some of the highest insurance costs in the country because of the mass fraud. There's endless scams or all kinds of varieties though. Just the other week there was some scam where Pakistanis claimed they couldn't speak English so the council/police used a local Pakistani law firm to buy translation services. But it turned out allot of them could speak English and they shared the translation fees. But then you'll get some that are honest as the day is long, the type who'd turn their sons into the police after they heard they were rioting.
I chatted to a Pakistani taxi driver who was voting Brexit. He was complaining about darker skinned Eastern Europeans looking like Pakistani's and giving them a bad name with their immoral behaviour. I'm not actually sure what he meant by that.
My Nigerian fiance was followed around a hair shop by a Pakistani who clearly thought she 'must be a thief'. She didn't buy there. She's had the N word shouted out of cars as shes walked down the street.
Now in a work and school setting I'm sure many throw those stereotypes to aside but there is the lingering underlying racism all around us. In Bradford and many Asian dense areas integration is becoming more and more problematic.
Pretty much the same narrative amongst the uneducated and bigots in the UK. "Shariah is taking over. Democracy is under threat". I'm not sure why and how 3% of UK's Muslim population can overthrow democracy. More to the point even majority Muslim nations do not have Shariah laws.In Bangladesh a section of the far right media has led a concerted effort to go after the religious minority and the secular nature of the country (the country fought a war with Pakistan and the 1st constitution BANNED religious parties from participating in politics).
Yet the media have very effective stirred the pot so well - large portions of a country where 85% of the population are muslim, feel like Islam is under threat...from who? Hindus & Christians.
In reality - it is very much the opposite, but regardless of education, social background...I heard many muslims agreeing with the sentiment that hindus were getting special favors and while Islam and muslims were getting the short end of the stick
I am not a 2nd generation immigrant.
I come from a country who had a long history of people immigrating though. My family itself wasn't immune to that and I have family and friends.
The first generation is pretty much like me. Actually they are more grateful then I am in a ridiculously grateful sort of way. They are very proud of their new citizenship (ie whatever their new country do = good) and when some of them do return to Malta you'll see them talking highly about the place they were in, they would place the country's flags on their houses roof etc. I've lost count of how many named their house Canada, London, Australia or New York (tbf my house is Old Trafford so I shouldn't really be naming them at all). They also remain pretty much involved into the country's politics (politics and football are sacred for a Maltese) and are quite passionate in it.
The second generation can still talk Maltese although its very evident that its his second language. They would spot you as a Maltese way before you can spot them. They speak, eat, think, act and marry locals. They would visit the islands once or twice in their lives but that is all
The third generation are locals who would barely have any recollection of Malta.
I feel that many people immigrate in a wrong way. They leave their home country, they settle in an area were there are plenty of their citizens around and they keep to their way of life, their traditions etc. Anything that is alien for them is wrong and they insist on living according to ways they live in total disrespect of the new society they are part off. FFS some barely even bother to learn the language which, in my opinion, is unacceptable. If you don't want to be part of that society and embrace that community with the good and bad things then why the feck you go there?
And before anyone say that I am being anti this or anti that I assure you that the Brits themselves make lousy immigrants (or expats, because a British citizen can't be an immigrant). So my rant is not about race or religion
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For the record i have never integrated fully into the Netherlands, hardly speak the language and dont mix with dutch people, im fine with this and so are my neighbours. Most of the people i know are foreigners but not english. I dont think im hated for my lack of integration.
I'll add my thoughts after I've finished work.
Stan, this does not surprise me.
This is me.
My family were made refugees - India took my folks in initially...and then they made it to the US. For what I hold in my heart - 'grudge' is too kind/mild a word.
CONTEXT
I've been asked to produce the advertising and social media campaign for 'The Great Get Together', planned for 17/18th June 2017. It’s being organised by Jo Cox Foundation with strong endorsement of all members of British Parliament to co-incide with the 1st year anniversary of her murder by a white supremacist neo-nazi.
The inspiration behind 'The Great Get Together' is an admission that Cox's murder, BrExit, Trump and the recent parliament attack provided platforms for people who seek to divide. Media and politicised gatherings tend to promote extreme minority positions instead of the mainstream. Of course, many UK people love diversity and are tolerant of cultures different to their own. But they don't have many platforms to gravitate to.
The target audience for 'The Great Get Together' is those who agree with diversity AND also encourages those who are uncomfortable with difference to experiment with others. Modelled loosely on the Queens jubilee celebrations, where communities came together to celebrate HRH and the commonwealth, 'The Great Get Together' invites people to seek out neighbours and acquaintances very different to themselves and intimately celebrate those differences with each other. Many events across the UK are already being planned, with promised endorsement already from politicians, faith leaders, celebrities and even football clubs.
SPECIFIC PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD
I've spent 10 years on this forum (nearly 20,000 posts!) and had some great intellectual discourse often helping improve my opinions. Though I have several data sources to help me on this project I'd also love your input as I think it can also inspire the work.
THE CORE PHILOSOPHICAL IS GIVEN WE ARE BORN NOT HATING ANYONE, WHY DO WE HATE OTHERS?
As a conversation starter I have 2 specific questions:
1. What are the top 4 or 5 reasons people are divided in the UK. Please give specific descriptions of the groups of people.
Eg older white men from the north do not like younger eastern European EU immigrants
or
British born extreme muslims do not like morally ambiguous white British people etc
2. Why does the opposing group specifically dislike the other group?
Eg: Traditional white British people dislike muslims because they are scared that their understanding of Islam could become UK law.
or
Some Scottish people hate English people because they believe English lawmakers never take their needs into account when they run the UK. etc
Or
Non black people are scared of black people because they think they are dangerous criminals and a threat to personal safety.
- If you can provide well thought answers, that should provide ample stimulus to get the thread started.
- No need for 'political correctness' and I accept there will be generalisations. I’m trying to get accurate beliefs. Follow up posts from others will hopefully critique and further specify the description.
- Feel free to state if your post isn't your personal opinion or if you feel uncomfortable to post but can contribute, please PM me. I can also post on your behalf of you wish.
- Please tag others you think have good views on this subject, especially more women so I get a more diverse opinion.
- I will moderate the thread and hopefully the participation of some mods will look out for any offensive or inappropriate posts on this sensitive subject.
I will use relevant pieces of input to help me write the creative brief for the project as well as help inform scripting and casting. I'll make sure I get them to include 'Red Cafe CE Forum' in the credits
Not sure my opinions will be of much value, but am happy to share them.
I think a good number of so-called racists are that way because of fear, and that fear is exacerbated by both ignorance and (I hate to say this) by fake news.
There are doubtless bigots and racists who are that way because their parents are - how far back would you need to go to find out why? I can't get my head round hating someone because of the colour of their skin, but there are people like that. Would be interesting to actually pin one down and ask his/her reasons.
Then there's historical hatred because your ancestors have been wronged - it's no surprise that Britain is hated because of what we've done through the centuries. I don't believe in using the term 'Great Britain' - it's not great in size, nor in actions. Much of our history is something to be ashamed of, not proud.
Interesting topic Sammsky - look forward to following it.
Austerity, food banks, house/rent prices, expenses scandals, bennefit cuts, tax dodging corporations, bankers, stagnant wages. You can have all the get togethers you like but with such financial pressures and actual/percieved unfairness people will always jump to easy conclusions and are likely to want to lash out, even at the wrong targets. Politicians, celebrities and football clubs are symptomatic of the problem.
I'm glad it doesn't but it does mean you pre judged me before i said.
This is 24 carat gold dust and I think you're right. Will do some more research into this line of thinking. But it makes sense: babies are born having been 'protected' by the womb for 9 months. And as soon as they are born, and make the immediate connections with their mother and maybe father, they do fear all others.
Assuming you're right, people are born fearful.
Wiki defines Fear as a feeling induced by perceived danger or threat that occurs in certain types of organisms, which causes a change in metabolic and organ functions .... Fear in human beings may occur in anticipation or expectation of a future threat perceived as a risk to body or life. The fear response arises from the perception of danger leading to confrontation with or escape from/avoiding the threat (also known as the fight-or-flight response). In humans fear is modulated by the process of cognition and learning. Thus fear is judged as rational or appropriate and irrational or inappropriate.
So people are fearful of the unknown because they think it is dangerous.
Researchers are discovering the extent to which fear such as xenophobia can be easily—even arbitrarily—turned on. In just hours, we can be conditioned to fear or discriminate against those who differ from ourselves by characteristics as superficial as eye color. Even ideas we believe are just common sense can have deep xenophobic underpinnings. For example, Research conducted at Harvard reveals that even among people who claim to have no bias, the more strongly one supports the ethnic profiling of Arabs at airport-security checkpoints, the more hidden prejudice one has against Muslims.
So to counter fear, one must demonstrate that the unknown is not dangerous - thats the ball game.
If I use @Wibble segmentation of Social, Political, Economic, Geographic, Ethnic and, Religious phobia's, the insight that 'people are fearful of the unknown because they think it is dangerous' applies equally well to all.. Eg: US's obsession with communism during the cold war: this statement stands. etc.
Power mongers have instinctively known this about humanity since the beginning of time, and used it to help them gain power over others.
If this is true, not only is 'The Great Get Together the perfect solution to this problem, its also at the heart of my creative brief: to tell a story where fear is overcome through demonstration that the unknown is not dangerous. Maybe its 1 film or maybe its 6 films, but the campaign should cover populist and relevant examples of Social, Political, Economic, Geographic, Ethnic and, Religious fears
Im really excited! What does everyone think?
Thank you so much for sharing this. Its so rich in intimate nuances and details that I was not aware of, and provides colour (pun intended
) and insights to the theory. This will help me to write scripts, if we choose this particular reason for hate.Pakistani Muslims are a very interesting sub group of Muslims and what you have observed is also keenly felt by non Pakistani Muslims all over the world, including in South Asia, Middle East, USA and Australia. There are specific historical and political reasons why this has come about and propaganda to create power lies at the heart of it.
@Penna Do you also empathise with the above post which is about Bradford?
Do we have any posters who are of Pakistani origins living in Bradford, who can provide a counter view or rebuttal? I's be fascinated to hear the other side of the story.
Thanks Livvie.
This subject is way broader than just racism. Wibble wrote an excellent segmentation on the reasons for fear and his opinion, they can be summarised as Social, Political, Economic, Geographic, ethnic, Religious.
As this is a specifically a UK project and if I go back in history before racial differences became mainstream, bigotry and fear was centred around geographic (eg War of the Roses, Ireland), Religious (Eg Henry VIII, Ireland dispute) and I'm sure there was political hatred ever since formal politics was created.
I guess what I’m saying is race is just one dimension and even there as @WackyWengerWorld demonstrated, there is even division within the same 'race' and religion in Bradford.
If I may ask, why do white native Brits 'hate' other white native Brits. Social, Politics, Geographic are surely reasons. One of my upper middle class white friends HATES 'chavs' so much and is in a running battle with his daughter right now as she is supposedly dating one. When he talks about it, he goes quite mad and becomes irrationally angry. And his hated is towards an entire socio-demographic of people. The entire British class system was built on developing these levels of 'hate' between the classes.
Likewise, because of Henry VIII, UK is predominantly agnostic/atheist. Long before Islam became a perceived threat, Id notice that agnostic/atheist became very uncomfortable when they met a practising Christian. In my first year at work after university, there was a young man a few years my senior who was smart, handsome and cool - we all had man crushes on him and aspired to be like him. 6 months later, he discovered and started practicing Christianity and so God and Jesus would occasionally enter in his conversations. His social rejection was swift and total; within days everyone gossiped about him at the coffee machine saying he was deranged and dangerous. It was quite amazing to observe!
When the British ruled their empire, British administrators arrogantly refused to adopt even one sliver of local customs. In places like India, they lived in contained and segregated areas which were designed and built to be identical to life in UK. It really was 'little Britain'.
I am saddened to read that things sound as if they're going backwards in Bradford. I have good memories of visiting the homes of Muslim women in my professional capacity, and of the many kindnesses I was shown (around Eid, especially). We midwives often used to say to each other that although most of the Muslim families were poor, they always had clean homes and the kids were well cared-for - unlike some of the poor white families we visited, where I saw awful, terrible things on occasion. I worked in the worst parts of the city.Thank you so much for sharing this. Its so rich in intimate nuances and details that I was not aware of, and provides colour (pun intended
Pakistani Muslims are a very interesting sub group of Muslims and what you have observed is also keenly felt by non Pakistani Muslims all over the world, including in South Asia, Middle East, USA and Australia. There are specific historical and political reasons why this has come about and propaganda to create power lies at the heart of it.
@Penna Do you also empathise with the above post which is about Bradford?
Do we have any posters who are of Pakistani origins living in Bradford, who can provide a counter view or rebuttal? I's be fascinated to hear the other side of the story.
There was an amazing amount of ignorance on the part of the white community, just because no-one had ever explained things about the Muslim culture to them. We had no interpreters in the hospital, despite that fact I could be in charge of a ward with over 30 non-English-speaking women. Even so, we learned a few slang words in Urdu and managed to get along. There was a lot of laughing, which is a universal language. I can say with confidence that we never encountered any rudeness or anti-white feeling from any member of the Muslim community.
From my perspective, we have to concentrate on our many similarities, not our differences. All decent parents want the best for their kids, all young folk want to get on in life and be successful in whatever they do as an adult, we all have elderly relatives we need to care for. That doesn't change between ethnic groups, although their way of approaching it may be different. What has happened is that the differences between us have become the focal point for a lot of people.
I'd like to point out something non-traditional in terms of what is helping and in many cases driving the divisions and hatred we see in society today - be it towards immigrants, religious groups or people of different classes.
The media.
The media across the world has failed humanity - I know, it all sounds very dramatic
But, whether it's the tabloids in the UK, Fox News in the US or their equivalents in countries all over the world.
If the average person is bombarded constantly with messages/information/stories telling them - they're losing xyz - and so and so is to blame...a significant portion of society will eventually believe it.
After all the average person does not do research and even if they do...they all tend to look for things that will support what they already believe or want to believe.
I guarantee - if for research purposes - all print media in the UK decided to lead their headlines with positive stories about immigrants for a month - and there was polling done subsequently, there will be a noticeable bump in those with positive views towards immigrants.
Im sure you understand the purpose of the news media is to make money. Thats it. Nothing more nothing less. And like any other business, they will do whatever is required to make money.
Maybe some misunderstand the news media business model: how does it raise income to pay the bills? In the Pepsi thread, I explained how advertising media space is a global $500billion industry (https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-new-pepsi-ad.427893/page-5#post-20690860). News media owners will compete for around 35% of that revenue.
Advertising space is bought according to 'cost per eyeballs: put simply, the more eye balls watching content on my channel, the higher I can sell it for. Youtube have provided the most perfect measurable platform, which is why is has become the biggest eyeballs platform on the planet.
So News media channels will make their news 'more entertaining', use over dramatised headlines as bait to attract your attention. Fake News started when these channels would stretch the truth to make it more sensationalist to attract more eye balls and more revenue.
Its not surprising BBC is the gold standard, as its not a profit making organisation so doesn't have to attract eyeballs to satisfy shareholders and advertisers. Many countries don't have a Government funded news channel and many of those who do become a ruling party propaganda tool. Its why I always seek out BBC opinion first before watching others.
@Neutral Of course you're right, most people trust established brands as truthful. And so there is no great media conspiracy, people will play back exactly what you tell them; and the more you tell them, so that playback becomes more accurate. We estimate that you need to see the same advert around 5 times to perfectly play back its desired message. Same will apply for news.
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I hope you don't mind that my input for now comprises of some random observations that are somewhat related to your questions but no direct anwers - which may or may not be helpful. I'll also respond to some posts separately tomorrow.
Of note:
Although I've met and know many people from the UK, the sample size I can base my observations on is small compared to someone who lives or has lived in the UK.
By no means I intend to imply that what I observe/d is limited to the UK and couldn't be observed elsewhere.
1 What surprised me as a German in my encounters with people from the UK - from a sport club exchange in my teenage days and further private trips to work and business travel today - is that 'class' seems to play a more important role than I was / am used to. Regardless of how old people are, there seems to be a greater emphasis on the 'right' family, friends, schools, universities, employers, ways to spend leisure time, vacation venues, ... and to mingle mainly with those from the same 'class'.
The tone in encounters with secretaries, other supportive staff of the company (e.g. cafeteria, gate keepers), with waiters, cab drivers, hotel staff etc is polite but often has this undertone of master-to-servant.
Generally, I am under the impression of a greater emphasis on what makes people different than what do people have in common.
I noted that the few people I met from Scotland or NI hardly acted that way.
2 Until 2006 (WC in Germany), I experienced more than once that sooner or later WWII popped up in conversations (lunch breaks in business meetings, after work dinners etc), and I got a friendly reminder that UK won the war and Germany lost. Again, this was regardless of age.
I noticed that British media (newspapers and TV) used quite some war-related vocabulary when Germany was covered.
All this was very weird to me, and left me under the impression that for whatever reason, people had a desire to feel superior.
Then Germany hosted the WC (2006).
My highlight: A group of English folks, men and woman in their mid thirties, sat in the same area of Frankfurt's open air fan zone and watched a QF. At half-time, we began to chat and expected a polite small-talk-like answer when we asked how they liked their trip to Germany so far. Boy were we wrong. Not only did they explain in great detail where they have been to (followed the English team) and how much they liked it; they proactively said that they were taken by big surprise about the Germans: That the image they got from British media and public opinion didn't match at all the experience they've made. They were so hooked that they planned to come back ASAP and visit more German cities.
Granted, the atmosphere during the WC was special, and they've had a beer or two. But their enthusiasm was genuine, and the lesson learned from this is simple:
Don't trust blindly what others say about a certain group of people; whenever possible make your own experience. IMO too few people know enough or make an effort to get to know a group of people they claim to dislike.
To be continued.
As said its wrong whoever does it. I don't even participate to Maltese get together that are organised in London, let alone expect an entire community to change for me. If I want to meet with fellow Maltese I buy myself a ticket to Malta
Yes please, You've already noticed a key issue within native Brits which is division via class and also the propaganda against Germany, so long after that threat disappeared. Brilliant.
more please when you can
The English have an obsession with WWII that is almost perverse, eg the 'two world wars and one world cup, doo dah dah' chant. We have more programmes about Hitler than probably the rest of the world combined.
It was our last hurrah as a major world power I guess. The colonies went and then the Suez debacle underlined we'd become a mid power. Things like Falklands roused a bit of the old bulldog spirit, and arguably the Gibraltar stuff now.
You mention class- age is a big divider too- the younger have finally shrugged the British world dominance thing.
I love Germany fwiw. Munich is one of my favourite cities. My mother is weird about visiting, despite how glaringly beautiful it is.
religion, politics, media.
@sammsky1 I went to school in the '80s outside Hull in E. Yorks. The school was one of the biggest comps in the country with c2k pupils. There was one black student, a handful of south Asian and Chinese and a few jews.
Hull was pretty much the whitest city in the UK. You saw a black person every few months, so people would double take.
We were all a bit bigoted- the corner shops were run by Asians and known as 'paki shops'- excuse the phrase. Your dad said it, it was a standard name for them. As a kid you had no idea it was offensive- descriptive, like saying the house with a green door.
It wasn't really until I got out of that parochial place that my eyes opened. At Durham Uni, I lived with Argentinians, Americans, Koreans etc...I dated a Taiwanese girl. It was the best year of my life and I loved hearing different people's perspectives on things- one of the best things about the Caf.
I married a Mauritian hindu and my, on the face of it bigoted previously, family love her as a daughter.
What my experiences have taught me is simple and obvious- spending time with each other is key. Meeting people from different cultures and backgrounds is far more interesting than just sticking to your own. You might learn something too.
Hull was pretty much the whitest city in the UK. You saw a black person every few months, so people would double take.
We were all a bit bigoted- the corner shops were run by Asians and known as 'paki shops'- excuse the phrase. Your dad said it, it was a standard name for them. As a kid you had no idea it was offensive- descriptive, like saying the house with a green door.
It wasn't really until I got out of that parochial place that my eyes opened. At Durham Uni, I lived with Argentinians, Americans, Koreans etc...I dated a Taiwanese girl. It was the best year of my life and I loved hearing different people's perspectives on things- one of the best things about the Caf.
I married a Mauritian hindu and my, on the face of it bigoted previously, family love her as a daughter.
What my experiences have taught me is simple and obvious- spending time with each other is key. Meeting people from different cultures and backgrounds is far more interesting than just sticking to your own. You might learn something too.
I think I have painted an excessively negative picture though and not really done 'the good uns' justice. About a year or 2 ago I was walking through town and walked past a white beggar in the rain, thinking to myself 'there's no need to beg in this country, you lot probably make more than minimum wage begging', anyway some Pakistani bloke in his 20s was far less cynical and took off his coat off in the rain and gave it to the beggar. I was humbled by his kindness. Now Islamically there is evidence for Muhammed being incredibly charitable and also being incredible war mongering, ie massacres and rape and enslavement. The 2 don't go hand in hand, it's a merging message of different peoples ideologies and realities. Some Muslims embrace the good of Muhammed and some embrace the bad. People use religion for what they want, whether it's to be good to others or others persecute them. The problem being they're easily led.
OMG!!!!!
thats the ad!!! a current, provocative and highly emotional British version of this film!!!
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Fascinating and a beautiful story about how knowledge overcomes ignorance and unjustified fear; its diversity that makes life so much more interesting.
When you were younger, why did people use such language? Was it intended as offensive and if so, why were those using such words offended by 'paki's'? Why did people 'hate' others who were different, rather than be fascinated in a good way?
Is it fair to say the situation you described in Hull in 1980's does not exist anymore? The vast majority of UK people under the age of 30 wont/cant hate because of race or religion because they have grown up with diversity since the playground. Inter race/faith marriages like yours are now so common and successful, it just isn't a big deal for a generation who experience diversity like never before. Internet technology helps fuel this.
ie: The problem is the 'racist' segment of the pre internet generation who are now aged 40+. Maybe people from your exact demographic but who did not get to go to Durham and date Taiwanese hotties (
- pictures!) and so did evolve those 80s populist views. Those people also have kids and so a % of them may also continue with that outlook?ie: This is a dying phenomena and this recent uprising is just the last splutter of life from an outlook about to die. That was my conclusion about Brexit, especially when I studied the voter patterns. Its still why I think that despite the vote, we should remain or at least have had another vote. Don't want to derail this into a Brexit discussion but thats what I think. I cant imagine that when the Millenials get into positions of power, they will divide themselves in the way that we are going right now. I doubt nationality will be THAT important when people exist digitally just as naturally as they do physically.
Comment pasted from youtube comments section:
I know this may not be much but my doctor lead me here. Sounds weird right. He said it would help me with my depression and it kinda has. It floods you with sorrow to make you feel better about yourself. The way this video hits me floods me with so much emotion and makes me feel human for once. I feel refreshed and accepted because I'm human. I don't know what to say and whther what I say makes any sense but idk the feels. I'm really happy my doctor showed me this...
I grew up in south Dorset, a conurbation of 250k people with around 100 Asians spread around the area so my upbringing was almost exclusively WASPish. I went to an evangelical after school church group (specifically for the pool tables and sporting activities) and nigh on all my acquaintances were white English.
I tried so hard to integrate that by age 12 I only knew 5 or 6 short suras and I could hardly speak Bengali let alone read it.
The thing is though, integration is a 2 way street. If someone makes an effort to try to assimilate and that effort goes unappreciated or unreciprocated then that tends to lead to alienation and a longing for some kind of identity that can be shared.
We as humans want to belong, as has been stated in this thread we're a tribal species and we take comfort in shared customs and ideas. I think the vast majority of animosity in this world is due to not realising how alike we are, we always put up new layers of identity just like sammsky's work friend who hates Chavs or the north/south divide or sectarianism.
I tried so hard to integrate that by age 12 I only knew 5 or 6 short suras and I could hardly speak Bengali let alone read it.
The thing is though, integration is a 2 way street. If someone makes an effort to try to assimilate and that effort goes unappreciated or unreciprocated then that tends to lead to alienation and a longing for some kind of identity that can be shared.
We as humans want to belong, as has been stated in this thread we're a tribal species and we take comfort in shared customs and ideas. I think the vast majority of animosity in this world is due to not realising how alike we are, we always put up new layers of identity just like sammsky's work friend who hates Chavs or the north/south divide or sectarianism.
There were other phrases, which I cringe at, looking back. Eg Chinese takeaways routinely known as Chinkys- @Grinner will remember this. Unbranded cola sold at aforementioned corner shops known as Paki sweat.Fascinating and a beautiful story about how knowledge overcomes ignorance and unjustified fear; its diversity that makes life so much more interesting.
When you were younger, why did people use such language? Was it intended as offensive and if so, why were those using such words offended by 'paki's'? Why did people 'hate' others who were different, rather than be fascinated in a good way?
Is it fair to say the situation you described in Hull in 1980's does not exist anymore? The vast majority of UK people under the age of 30 wont/cant hate because of race or religion because they have grown up with diversity since the playground. Inter race/faith marriages like yours are now so common and successful, it just isn't a big deal for a generation who experience diversity like never before. Internet technology helps fuel this.
ie: The problem is the 'racist' segment of the pre internet generation who are now aged 40+. Maybe people from your exact demographic but who did not get to go to Durham and date Taiwanese hotties (
ie: This is a dying phenomena and this recent uprising is just the last splutter of life from an outlook about to die. That was my conclusion about Brexit, especially when I studied the voter patterns. Its still why I think that despite the vote, we should remain or at least have had another vote. Don't want to derail this into a Brexit discussion but thats what I think. I cant imagine that when the Millenials get into positions of power, they will divide themselves in the way that we are going right now. I doubt nationality will be THAT important when people exist digitally just as naturally as they do physically.
It might sound odd, but as a kid it wasn't said with malice, it was just what you learnt.
I think as I got older and mingled with the one Indian kid in my class, who I got on with, it became apparent the words weren't acceptable.
When I was at uni, once or twice things I said raised eyebrows among more integrated southern friends, so I learnt a bit more.
It was driven by ignorance more than hate, I must stress.
Hull was a weird place to grow up. In London I have an amazing Turkish deputy, a an English/Sri Lankan online editor, Iranian reporter and I've just hired a Somalian and a Greek in the last month. I see diversity as a strength, despite having grown up in the dark ages of East Yorks in the '80s, so there is hope for us all.
My mum's MP is Brexit minister David Davis to give you a clue about my upbringing.
This doesn't seem likely and at best it is unproven. Fear can be inherited in rats but it is doubtful if this is the same thing as what we call fear in humans and we also don't seem to experience fear down the simplistic neural pathways (if that is the right term) that rats do. It is highly likely that the fear of other tribes that you are talking about is a social construct that is taught (consciously and/or unconsciously) and that is how this is passed down the generations - social inheritance - memes rather than genes. Much like we "inherit" religion.
This is a rather good summary I thought.
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(12)01435-2
When a child is born it doesn't fear anything. It cries not out of fear but simply due to a sudden change to its formerly very stable environment. It doesn't know who it's father and mother are - you could swap babies with other parents and they wouldn't know. They then grow very familiar with their immediate family and after that they learn almost everything from them and the surrounding environment which is also highly controlled by their immediate family. This is how we learn the things to fear in the same way we learn almost everything.
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@Jippy
Your explanation why the UK's victorious WWII participation plays such an important role sounds logic. The interesting point to me was that people from different countries - France, US, Italy, Netherlands etc - either never brought the topic up in conversations, or they asked questions; like how this could have happened, what we learn in school about it, how we make sure it doesn't happen again. Or they shared stories about their grandfathers who served during WWII, got wounded or died, about their families who fled the Nazis etc. But never ever I was reminded by an American or a French 'we won, you lost'.
After the WC, I've also never had such a conversation with a British person. It was as if - and that's why I was telling the story - that the actual exposure to Germany and / or the surprisingly positive coverage of Germany by British media totally changed the perception. And of course that's just an example of the underlying message: Get to know what you don't know will open your eyes and most like make prejudices disappear.
Your explanation why the UK's victorious WWII participation plays such an important role sounds logic. The interesting point to me was that people from different countries - France, US, Italy, Netherlands etc - either never brought the topic up in conversations, or they asked questions; like how this could have happened, what we learn in school about it, how we make sure it doesn't happen again. Or they shared stories about their grandfathers who served during WWII, got wounded or died, about their families who fled the Nazis etc. But never ever I was reminded by an American or a French 'we won, you lost'.
After the WC, I've also never had such a conversation with a British person. It was as if - and that's why I was telling the story - that the actual exposure to Germany and / or the surprisingly positive coverage of Germany by British media totally changed the perception. And of course that's just an example of the underlying message: Get to know what you don't know will open your eyes and most like make prejudices disappear.
Regarding the Americans I've been told numerous times that they won the war.