The Great Get Together

[sammsky1]

CONTEXT
I've been asked to produce the advertising and social media campaign for 'The Great Get Together', planned for 17/18th June 2017. It’s being organised by Jo Cox Foundation with strong endorsement of all members of British Parliament to co-incide with the 1st year anniversary of her murder by a white supremacist neo-nazi.

The inspiration behind 'The Great Get Together' is an admission that Cox's murder, BrExit, Trump and the recent parliament attack provided platforms for people who seek to divide. Media and politicised gatherings tend to promote extreme minority positions instead of the mainstream. Of course, many UK people love diversity and are tolerant of cultures different to their own. But they don't have many platforms to gravitate to.

The target audience for 'The Great Get Together' is those who agree with diversity AND also encourages those who are uncomfortable with difference to experiment with others. Modelled loosely on the Queens jubilee celebrations, where communities came together to celebrate HRH and the commonwealth, 'The Great Get Together' invites people to seek out neighbours and acquaintances very different to themselves and intimately celebrate those differences with each other. Many events across the UK are already being planned, with promised endorsement already from politicians, faith leaders, celebrities and even football clubs.


SPECIFIC PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD
I've spent 10 years on this forum (nearly 20,000 posts!) and had some great intellectual discourse often helping improve my opinions. Though I have several data sources to help me on this project I'd also love your input as I think it can also inspire the work.

THE CORE PHILOSOPHICAL IS GIVEN WE ARE BORN NOT HATING ANYONE, WHY DO WE HATE OTHERS?

As a conversation starter I have 2 specific questions:

1. What are the top 4 or 5 reasons people are divided in the UK. Please give specific descriptions of the groups of people.
Eg older white men from the north do not like younger eastern European EU immigrants
or
British born extreme muslims do not like morally ambiguous white British people etc

2. Why does the opposing group specifically dislike the other group?
Eg: Traditional white British people dislike muslims because they are scared that their understanding of Islam could become UK law.
or
Some Scottish people hate English people because they believe English lawmakers never take their needs into account when they run the UK. etc
Or
Non black people are scared of black people because they think they are dangerous criminals and a threat to personal safety.



- If you can provide well thought answers, that should provide ample stimulus to get the thread started.
- No need for 'political correctness' and I accept there will be generalisations. I’m trying to get accurate beliefs. Follow up posts from others will hopefully critique and further specify the description.
- Feel free to state if your post isn't your personal opinion or if you feel uncomfortable to post but can contribute, please PM me. I can also post on your behalf of you wish.
- Please tag others you think have good views on this subject, especially more women so I get a more diverse opinion.
- I will moderate the thread and hopefully the participation of some mods will look out for any offensive or inappropriate posts on this sensitive subject.

I will use relevant pieces of input to help me write the creative brief for the project as well as help inform scripting and casting. I'll make sure I get them to include 'Red Cafe CE Forum' in the credits

 

[Barbara Charles]

Thank you for including me in your thoughts, however, I have not posted in the Current Events forum in 10 years, so I don't know why my opinions would be of any value.

 

[Massive Spanner]

No

 

[unchanged_lineup]

Deleted due to @sammsky1 's views in the General Election thread.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Thanks for tagging me, although the actual tag did not show up , I only became aware when I saw this thread in the Brexit thread.
Will add my thoughts during the weekend when I have some time, hopefully it will help as one of the older members of the Caf and will try not to upset too many people.

 

[senorgregster]

Why did I get tagged here?

 

[Silva]

It's because most people don't take enough class A drugs.

 

[caid]

Sounds like a really good idea.
Good luck with it

 

[Wibble]

This was a great way of examining perceived difference.

 

[Crossie]

Sounds like a really good project.

I'm not from the UK and haven't lived there either; therefore I can only add my perception from business travel and working with plenty of British people (either located in the UK, US or Europe). If that's of interest, I'm happy to contribute.

If it helps brainstorming, I could also answer your questions for Germany rather than the UK, and you can consider whether or not these answers would or could be also applicable to the UK.

 

[sammsky1]

Sounds like a really good project.

I'm not from the UK and haven't lived there either; therefore I can only add my perception from business travel and working with plenty of British people (either located in the UK, US or Europe). If that's of interest, I'm happy to contribute.

If it helps brainstorming, I could also answer your questions for Germany rather than the UK, and you can consider whether or not these answers would or could be also applicable to the UK.

All or any input gratefully received - when outside UK pls give context.

Pls critique others to!

 

[Sultan]

Division amongst people is because we don't have enough people speaking out for unity. We've become indoctrinated and dependent on leaders who's very existence requires them to belong to a specific political, religious, national, or ethnic team. Not particularly what's best for all. Worse, we've been reduced to simply deciding on which is the most palatable direction to follow.

Basically, what I'm saying it's time to change our mindset on what to accept from our leaders.

Proposals for change.

Firstly, we should first change our behaviour and thought process. Always be mindful of our fellow human beings. We are not born with prejudices. It's our upbringing and everything around us. Possess the right kind of understanding to know the truth.

Instead of power we, our leaders, rulers and people in authority should be driven by the desire to earn good wishes from the people they rule or interact with on a daily basis.

Giving as much as one can, in spite of one's own need to people in need and misery without trying to make him feel grateful and without constant reminders to them of your favours.

Speaking the truth unreservedly without expecting any favours, or even though your words may harm. He who helps another man in committing injustice is same as committing injustice yourself. Giving up your pride, acquire a spirit a feeling for the people, and give them justly what is due and right to them.

I'm focusing more on solutions to your questions from my religious upbringing and thought process @sammsky1. Is this what you require? Or is my understanding wrong of your project?


I'll get some more thoughts together and edit post over the week.

Edit ongoing:

 

[Jippy]

Will happily chip in after the weekend- in Paris with the missus.

 

[Sultan]

I'd like @Fearless to be tagged into this thread.

 

[sammsky1]

Division amongst people is because we don't have enough people speaking out for unity. We've become indoctrinated and dependent on leaders who's very existence requires them to belong to a specific political, religious, national, or ethnic team. Not particularly what's best for all. Worse, we've been reduced to simply deciding on which is the most palatable direction to follow.

Basically, what I'm saying it's time to change our mindset on what to accept from our leaders.

Proposals for change.

Firstly, we should first change our behaviour and thought process. Always be mindful of our fellow human beings. We are not born with prejudices. It's our upbringing and everything around us. Possess the right kind of understanding to know the truth.

Instead of power we, our leaders, rulers and people in authority should be driven by the desire to earn good wishes from the people they rule or interact with on a daily basis.

Giving as much as one can, in spite of one's own need to people in need and misery without trying to make him feel grateful and without constant reminders to them of your favours.

Speaking the truth unreservedly without expecting any favours, or even though your words may harm. He who helps another man in committing injustice is same as committing injustice yourself. Giving up your pride, acquire a spirit a feeling for the people, and give them justly what is due and right to them.

I'm focusing more on solutions to your questions from my religious upbringing and thought process @sammsky1. Is this what you require? Or is my understanding wrong of your project?


I'll get some more thoughts together and edit post over the week.

Edit ongoing:

From my experience it's always best to spend more time sharply defining the problem, as working out the perfect solution is very easy: it's the mirror opposite expression (which may be very difficult to implement!). The looser the problem definition, the less convincing the answer will be. This is one of the best rules in life that I was taught by one of my ex bosses.

In terms of a loose process, I was going to collect problems first, collate them together and then ask for solutions. Having said that, all your answers are profound and probably answer any human problem that exists

 

[Sultan]

Here's something majorly disturbing. There's not much emphasis on meeting up over a coffee, drink, in village halls, meeting rooms and discussing our issues. We need to be looking in the eye and talking and discussing our problems and issues. Our face to face interactions is on major decline or completely disappeared. I've witnessed racists and bigots when coming into real contact, discussing their differences have on separation gone away respecting each others opinions, and enmity has lessened.

 

[oates]

To me it's got something to do with the way we all live in fear. Yes there's the Fear that an asteroid could hit the Earth or an earthquake could take away all that you love, the things we all fear together, the things that the media, the politicians would like us to fear. Then the things that divide us, fear of each other when we all share such common things. Instead of always focusing on difference we need to be able to look at the things that are the same about us all.

I think we need to stop being afraid.

 

[Sultan]

TV, mobile phones, social media, 24 hour news channels is fast destroying human relationship, distancing off even members of the same family, friends, colleagues from each other and surrounding them in their own small minute, pleasurable world, oblivious to the world around them. It is just one, but likely a big issue of our time. We are distant neighbours in our very own homes yet globalists at the same time due to these gadgets. This thread and the Caf is a prime example.

 

[oates]

TV, mobile phones, social media, 24 hour news channels is fast destroying human relationship, distancing off even members of the same family, friends, colleagues from each other and surrounding them in their own small minute, pleasurable world, oblivious to the world around them. It is just one, but likely a big issue of our time. We are distant neighbours in our very own homes yet globalists at the same time due to these gadgets. This thread and the Caf is a prime example.

Yes, this is a huge change in Society since I was a kid.

We knew All our neighbours in the whole road. All adults were parents, any could give you a clip round the ear for being cheeky or a bandaid for a grazed knee. Our doors were always unlocked if not open and we noticed the slightest change, a milk bottle out or not out for collection.

I lived in a small village in Sussex for nine years and the day I moved out one of the people down the road thought I was moving in! I was as guilty myself of driving home from work, straight onto my drive and then into the house which I hardly came out of to see anyone of my neighbours, my garden, everyone's garden had high fences - for privacy? Maybe, but more likely just to hide.

 

[sammsky1]

Here's something majorly disturbing. There's not much emphasis on meeting up over a coffee, drink, in village halls, meeting rooms and discussing our issues. We need to be looking in the eye and talking and discussing our problems and issues. Our face to face interactions is on major decline or completely disappeared. I've witnessed racists and bigots when coming into real contact, discussing their differences have on separation gone away respecting each others opinions, and enmity has lessened.

Is that right? I've been out of the UK for so many years so don't know.

Do you think people meet less now for coffee, drinks or dinner with large groups of people more than they did 20 years ago?

I know I don't go out that often, but I put that down to middle age. So in that sense, the internet keeps me more social/connected than I would be if it didn't exist.

Or maybe I'd go out more often. When I was younger my parents and uncles others every evening, men famously went to the pub every night. Does that still happen?

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Here's something majorly disturbing. There's not much emphasis on meeting up over a coffee, drink, in village halls, meeting rooms and discussing our issues. We need to be looking in the eye and talking and discussing our problems and issues. Our face to face interactions is on major decline or completely disappeared. I've witnessed racists and bigots when coming into real contact, discussing their differences have on separation gone away respecting each others opinions, and enmity has lessened.

It's the smartphone generation. It used to be that you'd meet a group of friends and have a rough time in your head as to when you'd have to leave, for work, or for whatever. Now when people do meet (meetings ubiquitously arranged via online platforms), they don't leave their phones down. Constantly reading Facebook, Snapchat, or whatever platform, but doing it in the presence of friends. You wonder what the point of the meeting was in the first place.

The art of conversation is dying fast. That obviously has a knock on effect on the phenomena you describe. Bigots and racists are drawn to the internet, and the more insular they can be, the less their troglodyte opinions are challenged. In years gone by they'd have had to join a rally (think rivers of blood...), now they can just join an alt right forum.

 

[Sultan]

Is that right? Ive been out of the UK for so many years so don't know.
Do you think people meet less now for coffee, drinks or dinner with large groups of people more than they did 20 years ago? I know I don't go out that often, but I put that down to middle age. So in that sense, the internet keeps me more social/connected than I would be if it didn't exist.

Or maybe I'd go out more often. When I was younger my parents and uncles others every evening, men famously went to the pub every night. Does that still happen?

Yes.

Pubs are closing down. Coffee shops are still busy in town. However, I see them as meeting places for businesses and passing of time whilst shopping. You'll see more people on their mobile phones than talking even in coffee shops.

 

[sammsky1]

It's the smartphone generation. It used to be that you'd meet a group of friends and have a rough time in your head as to when you'd have to leave, for work, or for whatever. Now when people do meet (meetings ubiquitously arranged via online platforms), they don't leave their phones down. Constantly reading Facebook, Snapchat, or whatever platform, but doing it in the presence of friends. You wonder what the point of the meeting was in the first place.

The art of conversation is dying fast. That obviously has a knock on effect on the phenomena you describe. Bigots and racists are drawn to the internet, and the more insular they can be, the less their troglodyte opinions are challenged. In years gone by they'd have had to join a rally (think rivers of blood...), now they can just join an alt right forum.

Do you think this is the key reason for modern day intolerance? Can you expand more on your last paragraph please?

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Do you think this is the key reason for modern day intolerance? Can you expand more on your last paragraph please?

It's not the key reason, or even the reason, it's just a symptom. The bigotry and racism (read intolerance) has always existed, it's just expressed differently now than it was in the past. If something isn't socially acceptable, it's driven underground. Therein lies the appeal of the internet for people on the fringes of society. It's public speech with the guise of anonymity. Their wet dream, essentially.

 

[Sultan]

A branch of intolerance is rooted in the fear of change.

"Sultan"

 

[JPRouve]

Do you think this is the key reason for modern day intolerance? Can you expand more on your last paragraph please?

Internet is an intolerant place by nature, it's also a place without nuances. In real life and in a real conversational context, we are all less PC and more empathetic at the same time, which is important because things need to be told but they also need to be well received. Internet is mainly a place where people throw words and don't care who and how they are going to be received, it's a terrible place to discuss and it's our main forum.

It might sound ridiculous but we need to learn how to discuss virtually.

 

[Sultan]

Another constant I keep hearing and reading is the word assimilation. Directed almost exclusively towards immigrants not assimilating with the host community.

From my experience on the ground. I see it as an opposite. I tend to find when Asians start buying homes in predominantly white areas. We find the white indigenous people tend to put their houses up for sale and move away. There is also hypocrisy in the debate. Most countries will have enclaves of people of their own language, colour, ethnicity or religion. People tend to generally prefer living with their own. That doesn't mean they're don't want to mix or hate others.

 

[Penna]

It's the smartphone generation. It used to be that you'd meet a group of friends and have a rough time in your head as to when you'd have to leave, for work, or for whatever. Now when people do meet (meetings ubiquitously arranged via online platforms), they don't leave their phones down. Constantly reading Facebook, Snapchat, or whatever platform, but doing it in the presence of friends. You wonder what the point of the meeting was in the first place.

The art of conversation is dying fast. That obviously has a knock on effect on the phenomena you describe. Bigots and racists are drawn to the internet, and the more insular they can be, the less their troglodyte opinions are challenged. In years gone by they'd have had to join a rally (think rivers of blood...), now they can just join an alt right forum.

I think this is very accurate and important. Local communities would deal with unpleasant people in the past by marginalising and ignoring them ("don't talk to Joe Bloggs, he's rude/aggressive/vulgar"). Now, all those angry people can get together with others who are equally angry. Everyone is brave in a crowd, so it reinforces their feelings.

On the wider issues, I love the idea of getting people together to challenge their preconceptions. It's easy to get folk to organise with others who share their views. As for sammsky's specific questions, I think people are divided by envy of wealth, fear of anything different and the perception that some mass of "new people" are displacing what they are familiar with.

Here's an example of my own experience 30 years ago in Bradford, before we had any fear of terrorists from other religions and cultures. I lived in a working-class area which was very mixed, with a lot of families of Pakistani origin - many of the middle-aged people were first-generation immigrants. Everyone seemed to rub along well, the women wore brightly-coloured clothes with loose scarves and their hair uncovered, people mixed with each other. I never ever (in 6 years) saw any woman dressed in black with a veil, and I was working with women all the time, as a midwife.

Mosques were built, in some cases replacing churches where local people no longer worshipped. Folk grumbled a bit. The modern primary school at the end of my street started replacing teachers with ones who were from the Asian community, to meet the needs of kids who didn't speak very good English. One day, I walked past at lunchtime and every child in the playground was of Asian ethnicity, except for two kids on their own in a corner. All the teachers in the playground were of Asian ethnicity. I could only hear Urdu being spoken, by both the kids and the teachers. I thought "we are going to have a problem here, this cultural integration isn't being handled in the right way". The school became a source of irritation for the local white community, as they felt their kids would be isolated there.

I left Bradford, a few years later the riots happened. I visited frequently over the next 10 or 15 years. All those brightly-coloured clothes seemed to have gone, the women were dressing very differently. I spoke to white people I knew there, they were fearful of the changes. No-one seemed to be managing anything, it was all ad-hoc. Some parts of the city had virtually no white residents (generally the poorest parts). Other areas had no residents from other ethnic backgrounds, just white people. Strangely enough, Bradford has had a thriving Polish community since the war, but they were not seen in the same way - I assume because they were white and Christian.

So, on this one (and from my own limited experience of living in a multi-cultural city), I'd say that local government was slow to react to rapid cultural change (often in working-class areas), and as a result people felt left behind and frustrated. That translates to a fear of that which they don't understand. I don't know what should have been done at the beginning in practical terms, but you can't go backwards now.

 

[Stanley Road]

I think our own opinions divide people mostly, people say brexit divided the people but that's only cos we now know their opinions, the more we learn about people or cultures the more we may like or hate someone / something.

You may get on with your colleagues until you find out the lazy ones are earning twice as much as yourself.

Then there's the haves and have nots, if we didn't know what the Haves actually have then we wouldn't worry about it.

So perhaps jealousy , envy and ones own perception of unfairness all play a part.

 

[711]

My first thought on reading the OP was that a fair bit of it is pretty patronising and divisive itself.

Maybe one could ask instead 'what has aided the successful creation and integration of multicultural society in the UK?', you could add even 'in the poor benighted north' if you want to.

I'm white. I remember the excitement of the first brown kid coming to my school in the early sixties. Over fifty years later the same school is well over 50% immigrant stock, most of the Asians probably third generation now, with Caribbeans, Africans, Poles etc newer to various degrees. It's a great school, the kids (mine went too) are well-educated, well-behaved, caring and friendly. For myself, despite knowing no 'coloureds' (as the polite term was then) at the age of seven, as an adult I found my close friends included a Hindu, a Muslim, and a Sikh. Sounds like a bad joke I know, and more recently my main friend is of Polish stock, albeit of the post-war variety. That's my city. Kids from different backgrounds have grown up here together, at school, socially, in pubs, at work. Last year I went to my Hindu friend's son's wedding, my son couldn't go, he was attending his muslim friend's wedding on the same day.

Yes there is still racism, but the far right was always a minority and has got weaker with time. I'll try and post a video made in response to a bit of newspaper stupidity over a proposed EDL march here, made by a colleague younger and wiser than I.



I'd say from the video that the far right isn't much of a threat really, so what is? Well the biggest threat for me is to where I began, the schools, particularly the existence and spread of single-religion schools, where kids won't grow up together, learn and play together, and get to know and understand each other from a very young age. I fear that within a couple of generations we could lose what we have, with more segregated societies based on religion, and hence race too. It would sadden me greatly.

I know I'm a lone voice, my view won't be popular with-left leaning politicians, or right, or the religious, but that's my message for the Great Get Together:

Ban the teaching of single religions in schools, save it for out of hours, and ban religion as a criterion of admission.

I won't see the next fifty years, but I care for it nonetheless.

 

[Wibble]

1. What are the top 4 or 5 reasons people are divided in the UK.

We all like to belong or feel at home and that often involves feeling part of a group of some sort and isn't an inherently bad thing. I think the majority of us group ourselves, consciously or unconsciously, in many ways including the following,

Social
Political
Economic
Geographic
Racial/ethnic/Religious

The relative importance of each of these will vary from person to person but when dissatisfaction about anything emerges it is always easier to blame someone as this is simple and most answers are complex which is confusing and stressful. When you combine that with the press, politicians and other assorted scumbags being more than willing to say "I know your life sucks and I can show you who is to blame" then it isn't surprising that we keep falling for this old chestnut. For example, to is easier for fishermen to blame the evil EU for their industries decline than to admit that the world has destroyed the majority of fisheries, in most cases permanently, through over-fishing despite the evidence that should have stopped us. Fr other things pointing at Muslims, dark people, migrants or whatever group is an easy way out and avoids lots of painful and complicated thinking.

What the particular stereotype is that people use to attack the group of choice is largely irrelevant.

2. Why does the opposing group specifically dislike the other group?

They probably don't although many are willing to grasp onto whatever stereotype warms them in winter. Whatever it is it is always "not people like us" type stuff. This would be funny if t weren't so tragic with Brexit and Trump's election going to screw over the very people who voted for it/him in the belief that they were voting for/with people who gave a shit about them.

 

[devilish]

In my opinion immigrants should be grateful of the opportunity given to them and they should assimilate as much as possible. In my 5 years in the uk i got involved into politics, i visit pubs and i voted to what i genuinely believed to be good for the country. I avoided living in maltese/italian areas and while i can speak 3 languages i stick to English when possible. I criticise things cause i love the uk
But ultimately i have to accept and embrace that certain things wont change and in some ways they shouldnt either. If i want a little malta in the uk then i might go back home

Too much emphasis is made on the locals behaviour and not enough emphasis on us. We can and we should do more

 

[Raoul]

CONTEXT
I've been asked to produce the advertising and social media campaign for 'The Great Get Together', planned for 17/18th June 2017. It’s being organised by Jo Cox Foundation with strong endorsement of all members of British Parliament to co-incide with the 1st year anniversary of her murder by a white supremacist neo-nazi.

The inspiration behind 'The Great Get Together' is an admission that Cox's murder, BrExit, Trump and the recent parliament attack provided platforms for people who seek to divide. Media and politicised gatherings tend to promote extreme minority positions instead of the mainstream. Of course, many UK people love diversity and are tolerant of cultures different to their own. But they don't have many platforms to gravitate to.

The target audience for 'The Great Get Together' is those who agree with diversity AND also encourages those who are uncomfortable with difference to experiment with others. Modelled loosely on the Queens jubilee celebrations, where communities came together to celebrate HRH and the commonwealth, 'The Great Get Together' invites people to seek out neighbours and acquaintances very different to themselves and intimately celebrate those differences with each other. Many events across the UK are already being planned, with promised endorsement already from politicians, faith leaders, celebrities and even football clubs.


SPECIFIC PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD
I've spent 10 years on this forum (nearly 20,000 posts!) and had some great intellectual discourse often helping improve my opinions. Though I have several data sources to help me on this project I'd also love your input as I think it can also inspire the work.

THE CORE PHILOSOPHICAL IS GIVEN WE ARE BORN NOT HATING ANYONE, WHY DO WE HATE OTHERS?

As a conversation starter I have 2 specific questions:

1. What are the top 4 or 5 reasons people are divided in the UK. Please give specific descriptions of the groups of people.
Eg older white men from the north do not like younger eastern European EU immigrants
or
British born extreme muslims do not like morally ambiguous white British people etc

2. Why does the opposing group specifically dislike the other group?
Eg: Traditional white British people dislike muslims because they are scared that their understanding of Islam could become UK law.
or
Some Scottish people hate English people because they believe English lawmakers never take their needs into account when they run the UK. etc
Or
Non black people are scared of black people because they think they are dangerous criminals and a threat to personal safety.



- If you can provide well thought answers, that should provide ample stimulus to get the thread started.
- No need for 'political correctness' and I accept there will be generalisations. I’m trying to get accurate beliefs. Follow up posts from others will hopefully critique and further specify the description.
- Feel free to state if your post isn't your personal opinion or if you feel uncomfortable to post but can contribute, please PM me. I can also post on your behalf of you wish.
- Please tag others you think have good views on this subject, especially more women so I get a more diverse opinion.
- I will moderate the thread and hopefully the participation of some mods will look out for any offensive or inappropriate posts on this sensitive subject.

I will use relevant pieces of input to help me write the creative brief for the project as well as help inform scripting and casting. I'll make sure I get them to include 'Red Cafe CE Forum' in the credits

Not sure whether you want US opinions, but I'd say its down to culture and identity here. The US is obviously completely different than the UK - much bigger and culturally disparate.

 

[sammsky1]

Not sure whether you want US opinions, but I'd say its down to culture and identity here. The US is obviously completely different than the UK - much bigger and culturally disparate.

would still be great as it will provide conceptual insights.

Plus US trends are normally 12 months ahead of UK, so whats happening over there is going this way soon!

 

[sammsky1]

In my opinion immigrants should be grateful of the opportunity given to them and they should assimilate as much as possible. In my 5 years in the uk i got involved into politics, i visit pubs and i voted to what i genuinely believed to be good for the country. I avoided living in maltese/italian areas and while i can speak 3 languages i stick to English when possible. I criticise things cause i love the uk
But ultimately i have to accept and embrace that certain things wont change and in some ways they shouldnt either. If i want a little malta in the uk then i might go back home

Too much emphasis is made on the locals behaviour and not enough emphasis on us. We can and we should do more

What about 2nd generation immigrants. ie: British born citizens who don't want to adopt the native culture. Surely UK is now also their country, and they have a right to live life as they wish, as long as its within the law? What should they be grateful about?

 

[sammsky1]

1. What are the top 4 or 5 reasons people are divided in the UK.

We all like to belong or feel at home and that often involves feeling part of a group of some sort and isn't an inherently bad thing. I think the majority of us group ourselves, consciously or unconsciously, in many ways including the following,

Social
Political
Economic
Geographic
Racial/ethnic/Religious

The relative importance of each of these will vary from person to person but when dissatisfaction about anything emerges it is always easier to blame someone as this is simple and most answers are complex which is confusing and stressful. When you combine that with the press, politicians and other assorted scumbags being more than willing to say "I know your life sucks and I can show you who is to blame" then it isn't surprising that we keep falling for this old chestnut. For example, to is easier for fishermen to blame the evil EU for their industries decline than to admit that the world has destroyed the majority of fisheries, in most cases permanently, through over-fishing despite the evidence that should have stopped us. Fr other things pointing at Muslims, dark people, migrants or whatever group is an easy way out and avoids lots of painful and complicated thinking.

What the particular stereotype is that people use to attack the group of choice is largely irrelevant.

2. Why does the opposing group specifically dislike the other group?

They probably don't although many are willing to grasp onto whatever stereotype warms them in winter. Whatever it is it is always "not people like us" type stuff. This would be funny if t weren't so tragic with Brexit and Trump's election going to screw over the very people who voted for it/him in the belief that they were voting for/with people who gave a shit about them.

Thanks for answering the brief and answering my actual question!! hint hint other poster's

Your segmentation of 'belonging' is the cleanest I've seen, it's fantastic, thanks! Would you mind giving me the best example of each one, in your opinion?

What causes the fisherman to ignore genuine causes for his problems and blame invented ones instead. Surely he know the truth so how does he live with his own intellectual dishonesty?

 

[Raoul]

would still be great as it will provide conceptual insights.

Plus US trends are normally 12 months ahead of UK, so whats happening over there is going this way soon!

For me, its less so about a particular group here. Rather its about how all groups are seeking power under the law.

There is imo a large group of ageing baby boomers who are reinforcing old school traditional views about the America they knew when they were coming up in the 60 and 70s. Patriarchal, distinctly homogeneous, varyingly religious, generally more white male than not, and if not then probably white female. The 2nd group are basically Gen-Xers all the way through the current millennials - people who grew up in the late 80s into the 2000s, who generally have more progressive views about what America is and should be. Heterogeneous, environmentally conscious, more racially integrated, data driven, linguistically diverse, embracing progressive social norms, and generally more accepting of new ideas and more accepting of the idea that all people deserve equal protection under the law.

That is imo the central tug of war going in in American society. There are more subgroups who may to varying degrees not tidily fit into the main groups, but if I had to distill it down into a parsimonious term it would be the traditionalists vs the progressives.

 

[sammsky1]

My first thought on reading the OP was that a fair bit of it is pretty patronising and divisive itself.

Maybe one could ask instead 'what has aided the successful creation and integration of multicultural society in the UK?', you could add even 'in the poor benighted north' if you want to.

I'm white. I remember the excitement of the first brown kid coming to my school in the early sixties. Over fifty years later the same school is well over 50% immigrant stock, most of the Asians probably third generation now, with Caribbeans, Africans, Poles etc newer to various degrees. It's a great school, the kids (mine went too) are well-educated, well-behaved, caring and friendly. For myself, despite knowing no 'coloureds' (as the polite term was then) at the age of seven, as an adult I found my close friends included a Hindu, a Muslim, and a Sikh. Sounds like a bad joke I know, and more recently my main friend is of Polish stock, albeit of the post-war variety. That's my city. Kids from different backgrounds have grown up here together, at school, socially, in pubs, at work. Last year I went to my Hindu friend's son's wedding, my son couldn't go, he was attending his muslim friend's wedding on the same day.

Yes there is still racism, but the far right was always a minority and has got weaker with time. I'll try and post a video made in response to a bit of newspaper stupidity over a proposed EDL march here, made by a colleague younger and wiser than I.



I'd say from the video that the far right isn't much of a threat really, so what is? Well the biggest threat for me is to where I began, the schools, particularly the existence and spread of single-religion schools, where kids won't grow up together, learn and play together, and get to know and understand each other from a very young age. I fear that within a couple of generations we could lose what we have, with more segregated societies based on religion, and hence race too. It would sadden me greatly.

I know I'm a lone voice, my view won't be popular with-left leaning politicians, or right, or the religious, but that's my message for the Great Get Together:

Ban the teaching of single religions in schools, save it for out of hours, and ban religion as a criterion of admission.

I won't see the next fifty years, but I care for it nonetheless.

Thank you for sharing this personal story, its a microcosm of how modern day Britain itself has developed.

I also accept your criticism, the UK has never been so tolerant or diverse, and the national culture is one of total global fusion, as evidenced by how the country proudly portrayed itself during the London Olympics. And your VDO also tackles this subject with the intellectual contempt it deserves.

I also agree that integration is as important as tolerance, and many new incoming cultures are as resistant to change. That's one of the themes I think needs to be tackled.

Why do people in the EDL hate Preston muslims. Like what is the actual genuine reason?

 

[Sultan]

This is turning out to be a great thread.

 

[sammsky1]

I think this is very accurate and important. Local communities would deal with unpleasant people in the past by marginalising and ignoring them ("don't talk to Joe Bloggs, he's rude/aggressive/vulgar"). Now, all those angry people can get together with others who are equally angry. Everyone is brave in a crowd, so it reinforces their feelings.

On the wider issues, I love the idea of getting people together to challenge their preconceptions. It's easy to get folk to organise with others who share their views. As for sammsky's specific questions, I think people are divided by envy of wealth, fear of anything different and the perception that some mass of "new people" are displacing what they are familiar with.

Here's an example of my own experience 30 years ago in Bradford, before we had any fear of terrorists from other religions and cultures. I lived in a working-class area which was very mixed, with a lot of families of Pakistani origin - many of the middle-aged people were first-generation immigrants. Everyone seemed to rub along well, the women wore brightly-coloured clothes with loose scarves and their hair uncovered, people mixed with each other. I never ever (in 6 years) saw any woman dressed in black with a veil, and I was working with women all the time, as a midwife.

Mosques were built, in some cases replacing churches where local people no longer worshipped. Folk grumbled a bit. The modern primary school at the end of my street started replacing teachers with ones who were from the Asian community, to meet the needs of kids who didn't speak very good English. One day, I walked past at lunchtime and every child in the playground was of Asian ethnicity, except for two kids on their own in a corner. All the teachers in the playground were of Asian ethnicity. I could only hear Urdu being spoken, by both the kids and the teachers. I thought "we are going to have a problem here, this cultural integration isn't being handled in the right way". The school became a source of irritation for the local white community, as they felt their kids would be isolated there.

I left Bradford, a few years later the riots happened. I visited frequently over the next 10 or 15 years. All those brightly-coloured clothes seemed to have gone, the women were dressing very differently. I spoke to white people I knew there, they were fearful of the changes. No-one seemed to be managing anything, it was all ad-hoc. Some parts of the city had virtually no white residents (generally the poorest parts). Other areas had no residents from other ethnic backgrounds, just white people. Strangely enough, Bradford has had a thriving Polish community since the war, but they were not seen in the same way - I assume because they were white and Christian.

So, on this one (and from my own limited experience of living in a multi-cultural city), I'd say that local government was slow to react to rapid cultural change (often in working-class areas), and as a result people felt left behind and frustrated. That translates to a fear of that which they don't understand. I don't know what should have been done at the beginning in practical terms, but you can't go backwards now.

I really enjoyed reading this walk down recent history. I stayed in Bradford for 2 weeks for a course in the late 1990's. We went out every night and I remember everything in Bradford cost £2, be it cab fares, night club entry tickets, kebabs, or drinks. It was quite funny.

Why do you think Muslim women changed their identities; especially when many will be 2nd generation who were born and grew up in Bradford? Why didn't Muslim population adopt more British values?

Why were the original local community welcoming, and why has that changed in recent years?

How are people in Bradford exposed to EU migrants?