The First Redcafe Sheep Draft

Cutch said:
Final Squad


Sub: David Villa
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Nice team, Stoichkov and romario :drool:
Your defense is pretty weak imo as I don't rate Puyol either too brilliantly defensively and Helguera is better than Ramos but still far from brilliant and I expected you to improve either of your CBs with another defender from the banned list..
But Dunga-Silva will protect them well.
But, your offensive build is more than impressive. Well done
 
If it wasn't for @Chesterlestreet I would've been able to partner Gullit-van Basten together. :(
Anyways I am really pleased with Thiago Silva, him and Desailly are and were fantastic central defenders.

@AldoPaine18 when is the round draw?
 
Theon said:
This is definitely the best team I've seen so far - IMO it was a top 3/4 side anyway before you struck gold with Romario, which has taken it up another level.
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Think it can be hit hard defensively tbh.
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
Final team:
Nikopolidis
Lahm Terry Carvalho Baines
Modric Ince
A.Sanchez Laudrup Nedved
Crespo​

Turned my defense from fine to great, one of the best full backs of this generation, a solid full back with great attacking influence, and a proven center back partnership, covered by a strong defensive midfielder and a hard working creative midfielder..

Any weaknesses you lads want to point out? Maybe switch Modric and Ince around?
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Anything you cnuts? :D
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
No one went for Messi at any point, brilliant stuff guys
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I did but was blocked

Balu said:
Ffs @Polaroid . Imagine Matthäus in midfield with Effenberg and Sammer :drool:. At least I did the same to you in stage 2, when you were the only one picking him and I was the only one blocking him.
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That midfield can steamroll the rest of us like panzer tanks crushing tin, it would be a sight to behold :drool: that is if they do not self combust fighting each other first :lol:
 
NM said:
Think it can be hit hard defensively tbh.
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Really? The defence isn't bad anyway, although I wouldn't have swapped out Ramos. But in addition he has two rock solid defensive midfielders, as well as two hardworking wingers.

Conceding goals won't be a problem for that team at all IMO.
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
Nice team, Stoichkov and romario :drool:
Your defense is pretty weak imo as I don't rate Puyol either too brilliantly defensively and Helguera is better than Ramos but still far from brilliant and I expected you to improve either of your CBs with another defender from the banned list..
But Dunga-Silva will protect them well.
But, your offensive build is more than impressive. Well done
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The plan was to get what i consider to be Barcelona's best all time defense. I'd have Sergi, Puyol and Alves all in it, so i only missed out on Koeman and Zubizaretta (which i was gutted about). There might be better defensive fullbacks than Alves for example but he's one of the best attacking fullbacks i've seen, and not so long ago on here he was talked about by many as the 3rd best performing player in the world after Ronaldo/Messi. Important then to get the right protection in midfield to help cover the marauding fullbacks, so delighted to pick up Dunga and Mauro Silva in the centre and the tireless Stoitchkov and Luis Enrique tracking back on the flanks.
 
Pippa said:
If it wasn't for @Chesterlestreet I would've been able to partner Gullit-van Basten together. :(
Anyways I am really pleased with Thiago Silva, him and Desailly are and were fantastic central defenders.

@AldoPaine18 when is the round draw?
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Hehe! I would've gladly played the gentleman's game on the second stage as well - but I wasn't aware it was a possibility until the third stage. Still, I'm glad my ungentlemanly ways made sure you didn't get Van Basten - none of us needs that partnership against us.
 
AldoPaine18 said:
You can get rid of the sheep.
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With that in mind I will be sad to see Dragisa Binic leave the squad. On the plus side in sussing him out (his pace was extraordinary, too good for a sheep IMO despite his erratic finishing), I got to re-watch Red Star's brilliant 1990/91 campaign.
 
Theon said:
Really? The defence isn't bad anyway, although I wouldn't have swapped out Ramos. But in addition he has two rock solid defensive midfielders, as well as two hardworking wingers.

Conceding goals won't be a problem for that team at all IMO.
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Agreed. Ramos was seen as too rash, so reluctantly i had to replace. As i say, the other 3 imo would get into Barca's all time 11, and i've a proven defensively robust pairing protecting them in midfield.
 
@Cutch the way I see it you do have a good set of players to defend against possession game with Enrique Hristo Dunga Silva will cover for your defensive flaws, but you will be really really prone for problems in the counters imo
 
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I like how my team has turned out to be. I can't really see any flaws in terms of personnel, the good thing about Gullit is that he is so versatile and can play almost everywhere through the centre. Sousa provides creativity from deep and Baggio was a workhorse for Italia 1994. Gullit is obviously the main man through the middle.

8 of my 11 players have played in Milan - Gullit, Donadoni, Baggio, Sousa, Silva, Desailly, Angloma, Pagliuca - and the other three are seen as legends for their own clubs - Raúl, Giggs, Irwin. I hope that I can come up against a team that doesn't have great fullbacks, as I think my wide players are my best advantage.

Raúl and Gullit are definitely aerial threats...I won't say Raúl will be playing as a "lone striker" - between 98-01 he wasn't always the furthest man forward and he always benefited from Moro's aerial ability that Gullit can always provide. Raúl had a great heading technique - he scored a couple of great headers in clásicos.

And for a trip down memory lane, here's Roberto Donadoni toying with Manolo Sanchís before crossing to Gullit for a goal. :drool:

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VivaJanuzaj said:
@Cutch the way I see it you do have a good set of players to defend against possession game with Enrique Hristo Dunga Silva will cover for your defensive flaws, but you will be really really prone for problems in the counters imo
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I'm not seeing it to be honest. I've seen hardly any really dangerous flanks in this draft, with many of the star wide players out of the game (Messi, C Ronaldo, Henry, Overmars, Iniesta, Ribery, Figo). No Roberto Carlos or Zanetti's either. Many teams seem to be flooding the pitch through the middle but that'll play right into Dunga and M Silva territory. Puyol and Helguera are extremely competent defenders (they wouldn't have played as many games for Real/Barca if they weren't), Sergi is solid, and Alves has the recovery pace.
 
Puyol has spent his career dealing with counter attacks.
 
Gio said:
With that in mind I will be sad to see Dragisa Binic leave the squad. On the plus side in sussing him out (his pace was extraordinary, too good for a sheep IMO despite his erratic finishing), I got to re-watch Red Star's brilliant 1990/91 campaign.
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Ain't been paying attention to the sheep at all, obviously, apart from double Djemba. That's ridiculous.
 
NM said:
Puyol's career didn't begin in 2006.
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:lol: I'm aware of that mate!

You knew perfectly well what I was saying - Barcelona and Spain both pressed high and dominated the ball, and consequently practically every attack they faced was a counter attack.

The idea that Puyol couldn't cope with counters is daft really, it's what he has done every game since the implementation of that style.

Chesterlestreet said:
Haha! Feeble ones, maybe.
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Not sure what you're saying here?
 
Theon said:
:lol: I'm aware of that mate!

You knew perfectly well what I was saying - Barcelona and Spain both pressed high and dominated the ball, and consequently practically every attack they faced was a counter attack.

The idea that Puyol couldn't cope with counters is daft really, it's what he has done every game since the implementation of that style.
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Yes. I actually really LIKE Puyol but don't rate him that highly in general. That is still a stunning team though.
 
Theon said:
:lol: I'm aware of that mate!

You knew perfectly well what I was saying - Barcelona and Spain both pressed high and dominated the ball, and consequently practically every attack they faced was a counter attack.

The idea that Puyol couldn't cope with counters is daft really, it's what he has done every game since the implementation of that style.



Not sure what you're saying here?
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You mean every attack they faced was the opponent kicking the ball back to them lol.
 
NM said:
Yes. I actually really LIKE Puyol but don't rate him that highly in general. That is still a stunning team though.
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I don't rate him particularly highly either, both him and Ramos are somewhat underrated on the Caf though - whilst both strangely actually being overrated outside of it.

I just don't think counters is something he would struggle with compared with other defenders. He wouldn't and didn't shit himself and start back-pedaling the second a counter was initiated, as so many centre backs do.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Ain't been paying attention to the sheep at all, obviously, apart from double Djemba. That's ridiculous.
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The plan was to stick him high on the right to feed off Rivaldo's through-balls, outpacing the left-back before blootering the ball high and wide.
 
Theon said:
Not sure what you're saying here?
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Too harsh on my part - you're right.

But the fact of the matter is that Puyol was a part of a defensive set-up which was seldom put under sustained pressure during Barca's glory days. It was, one could even say, a set-up which depended entirely on NOT being put under sustained pressure, and certainly not continuous - let's say - traditional attacks.

And it was only on rare occasions subjected to deadly counter attacking - because of how good the team as such was both at keeping possession and at pressing.

Puyol was - in my opinion - a very good defender in that set-up. But that's it. It doesn't make him Nesta. It doesn't even make him Pallister.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Too harsh on my part - you're right.

But the fact of the matter is that Puyol was a part of a defensive set-up which was seldom put under sustained pressure during Barca's glory days. It was, one could even say, a set-up which depended entirely on NOT being put under sustained pressure, and certainly not continuous - let's say - traditional attacks.

And it was only on rare occasions subjected to deadly counter attacking - because of how good the team as such was both at keeping possession and at pressing.

Puyol was - in my opinion - a very good defender in that set-up. But that's it. It doesn't make him Nesta. It doesn't even make him Pallister.
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Yeah I'm not too sure where you're coming at with all of this and I think you've lost sight of the original comment which you disagreed with - that Puyol could cope with counters.

I never said he was Nesta - that has come from nowhere - and actually said in this thread I don't rate him too highly myself. What I did say is that Puyol can deal with counter attacks, so that criticism of Cutch's side seems unfair in that regard. Counters are something Puyol is specifically very good at and has direct experience with, because he plays in a system in which virtually every attack they face is a counter attack.

In contrast to many of the English or Italian sides Barcelona and Spain don't defend deep, don't defend the box and it is extremely rare that you will see Barca/Spain on the edge of the area whilst the opposition sustains an attack by knocking it about and probing for an opening. It is the complete opposite, with their style of play and decision to press high up the pitch offering the consistent risk of being countered against. As such virtually every attack Puyol deals with is of this type.

And in fact for both Spain and Barcelona he has been the most significant defender in implementing this style - so it is a harsh criticism.
 
Theon said:
Yeah I'm not too sure where you're coming at with all of this and I think you've lost sight of the original comment which you disagreed with - that Puyol could cope with counters.

I never said he was Nesta - that has come from nowhere - and actually said in this thread I don't rate him too highly myself. What I did say is that Puyol can deal with counter attacks, so that criticism of Cutch's side seems unfair in that regard. Counters are something Puyol is specifically very good at and has direct experience with, because he plays in a system in which virtually every attack they face is a counter attack.

In contrast to many of the English or Italian sides Barcelona and Spain don't defend deep, don't defend the box and it is extremely rare that you will see Barca/Spain on the edge of the area whilst the opposition sustains an attack by knocking it about and probing for an opening. It is the complete opposite, with their style of play and decision to press high up the pitch offering the consistent risk of being countered against. As such virtually every attack Puyol deals with is of this type.

And in fact for both Spain and Barcelona he has been the most significant defender in implementing this style - so it is a harsh criticism.
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My only point, somewhat jocularly put, was about the quality of the (counter) attacks he has normally defended against. I don't blame him for Barca's style, that's beyond him, obviously.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
My only point, somewhat jocularly put, was about the quality of the (counter) attacks he has normally defended against. I don't blame him for Barca's style, that's beyond him, obviously.
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There is no blame for Barcelona's style there - what would that blame even be? They're probably the greatest club side ever.

The point about Barcelona's style is only relevant to the extent that it supports the idea that Puyol can cope being countered against. I disagree with the quality of counters comment as well, actually. I don't have the time to watch much Spanish football anymore but a few seasons ago I'd catch the vast majority of Barca games and they would face good quality counter attacks.

As a form of attack I actually think counters can be an easier thing to implement - indeed just look at how United have been countered on by average sides. So my point here is that even though they would dominate all of their games and technically far outclass the opposition, practically every game there would be instances where the opposition would nick the ball and then just immediately transition to a counter attack - it would always happen, and you don't need to have amazing technical proficiency to make it work.

In those scenarios the best way I could put it is that Puyol didn't shit himself - sounds silly but when I contrast it to the approach of most centre backs when facing a direct attack, its the easiest way of articulating the difference. Rather than backtrack and defend the area - a response that actually sustains the counter rather than ending it - he would often just step out to continue the press and win possession. Snuff out the counter there and then.
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
I think it's brilliant, really is, just not a big fan of Raul there, waste of him imo, but I think it's still magnificent side.. If you would've got a striker and not silva I'd say it's the by far the best side here
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I think its a good set up for Raul personally. With a beast like Gullit occupying the centre backs with his physical threat, Raul gets to do what he does best and find pockets of space to exploit. Pippa's certainly got one of the strongest teams out there. I'm not completely sold on his central midfield, but its good enough to be competitive at least.
 
Theon said:
There is no blame for Barcelona's style there - what would that blame even be? They're probably the greatest club side ever.

The point about Barcelona's style is only relevant to the extent that it supports the idea that Puyol can cope being countered against. I disagree with the quality of counters comment as well, actually. I don't have the time to watch much Spanish football anymore but a few seasons ago I'd catch the vast majority of Barca games and they would face good quality counter attacks.

As a form of attack I actually think counters can be an easier thing to implement - indeed just look at how United have been countered on by average sides. So my point here is that even though they would dominate all of their games and technically far outclass the opposition, practically every game there would be instances where the opposition would nick the ball and then just immediately transition to a counter attack - it would always happen, and you don't need to have amazing technical proficiency to make it work.

In those scenarios the best way I could put it is that Puyol didn't shit himself - sounds silly but when I contrast it to the approach of most centre backs when facing a direct attack, its the easiest way of articulating the difference. Rather than backtrack and defend the area - a response that actually sustains the counter rather than ending it - he would often just step out to continue the press and win possession. Snuff out the counter there and then.
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Figure of speech, man. Nobody in his right mind would claim it's a poor set-up.

I'm not saying he isn't suited for defending against counter attacks, that was never my point. He might be. He has done very well, one must say, as a defender playing for a team notorious for high, collective pressure and extreme ball possession. That is a fact. Whether one takes that as an indication that he is particularly adept at dealing with counter attacks would depend on one's perspective, I suppose.
 
Balu said:
@AldoPaine18
Could you post who picked and blocked what players in all 3 stages of this round? I want to know what Anto did and who blocked Matthäus for me in the first stage :)

And thanks for running this draft, it was brilliant so far. Great job.
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Nothing spectacular. As I said, I focused on blocking through both picks.

Managed to keep Henry and Redondo out in a smashing first round.

My second round was pretty useless, should have gone with Romario with hindsight.

Third round I wasn't much use either. Thought about Silva, and particularly blocking Redondo, but after seeing Romario go through suspected everyone was going Messi/Ronnie/CR7 so focused on Bucktooth and Marco.
 
Good side, Pol. Wish I blocked Redondo again in the 3rd round instead of Zanetti :(
 
So what do people think of the draft compared to the normal ones now when it is over? Does teams look even more cohesive and thought out or has it become more about the getting that jackpot joker player and winning on that?
 
Cutch said:
The plan was to get what i consider to be Barcelona's best all time defense. I'd have Sergi, Puyol and Alves all in it, so i only missed out on Koeman and Zubizaretta (which i was gutted about). There might be better defensive fullbacks than Alves for example but he's one of the best attacking fullbacks i've seen, and not so long ago on here he was talked about by many as the 3rd best performing player in the world after Ronaldo/Messi. Important then to get the right protection in midfield to help cover the marauding fullbacks, so delighted to pick up Dunga and Mauro Silva in the centre and the tireless Stoitchkov and Luis Enrique tracking back on the flanks.
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And Guardiola, and Popescu, and Cocu, and as a result the distribution for those upfront is missing. I said earlier I had focused on the platform while you had gone for the forwards, we seem to have ended up neither here nor there although you obviously look more Barca-like. You would have been better off with Pep over Romario TBH (considering you had Villa anyway).

I actually thought about having a stab at Guardiola in that last round. Thought it was a shame to see him left out altogether when you had quite a nice setup for him upfront. There just didn't seem to be any point to it other than that though so I opted for a block pick which would have been great if it came through at all (funny that you blocked it, of all people).

Speaking of, @Thisistheone, feck off blocking Henry! Again... :annoyed: He belonged with Dennis. I wasn't looking forward to benching Ginola, like him much more, but pairing those two would have to be done.
 
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I think Cutch would've been better off dropping one of Dunga/Muaro Silva, pushing Mendieta back a bit and getting a playmaker. Or like anto said go for Guardiola. I think his side lacks creativity.
 
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