No I think most sides' defensive midfield will be the one troubling Gullit and unless someone has a weak CB pairing or weak DM I can see them coping with the danger that is Gullit-Raul
The First Redcafe Sheep Draft
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
Oh, I didn't even realise that! Makes me feel a bit better :P
feck me sideways, Ronaldo Fenómeno was available, unblocked and unchallenged in Round 2. That with several managers already through and only needing to focus on blocking the game-changers...
What a bunch of retards!
What a bunch of retards!
The DM will have to be very good in the air, and the manager had best have a good pair of full backs as well or else the DM will have his work cut out supporting the full backs vs Giggs and Donadoni as well as nullifying Gullit. It will all come down to the players he's facing, but overall I think Pippa's got a formidable and well-balanced attacking four. Sousa has the range of passing to find them as well, although I'm not completely sold on him and Dino Baggio being the best at regaining possession. Raul is somewhat like Thomas Muller for me in that he'll find space almost regardless of his position as long as he's got the right supporting cast. His biggest weaknesses, namely pace and strength, are well-mitigated by having the likes of Gullit and Giggs around him.
I just fecking hate seeing David Villa on the bench! I somewhat agree about the creativity. Cutch has assembled a cracking team but personally I'd have loved to have seen someone like Valeron or Riquelme in there ahead of Mendieta. I get the feeling I underrate Mendieta a bit compared to most, but with Dunga/Mauro Silva behind I think he could have afforded a slightly more expansive player ahead of them.
There simply wasn't any need for Dunga and Mauro Silva. Couldn't understand that at all. They actually look like complete misfits to me when I'm used to having seen the likes of Guardiola and Bakero in that Barca midfield. Mendieta was a good pick IMO and would have been well suited to one of the midfield roles, it was the midfield overkill which created the problem.
The entire transition seems to rely primarily on the fullbacks carrying the ball forward, which is miles away from the setup that made Stoichkov, Enrique and Romario play at their very best. The ball travels faster than ball carriers, which is why having the right players to deliver it is essential for them. In fact, that Cruyff clip Stob keeps quoting he says precisely that, something along the lines of "if you rely on your fullbacks for the transition you are fecked because those on the other side of the pitch are redundant, you need to create through the middle and find space either side". Makes an awful lot of sense really.
The entire transition seems to rely primarily on the fullbacks carrying the ball forward, which is miles away from the setup that made Stoichkov, Enrique and Romario play at their very best. The ball travels faster than ball carriers, which is why having the right players to deliver it is essential for them. In fact, that Cruyff clip Stob keeps quoting he says precisely that, something along the lines of "if you rely on your fullbacks for the transition you are fecked because those on the other side of the pitch are redundant, you need to create through the middle and find space either side". Makes an awful lot of sense really.
Great draft, thanks for hosting the entertainment @AldoPaine18
The team changing picks were @VivaJanuzaj and @NM . Lahm & Fabregas really takes their team to a new high. Rather than a superstar is a shaky set up, they picked solid players and a super team now. Great choices!
Yup. Fun is over. Let the battles begin!
Yup. Fun is over. Let the battles begin!
I didn't really think of the Barca theme to be honest. Cutch lacks the top class creativity of Koeman, Guardiola and Laudrup, but virtually his entire team is comfortable in possession and can pick a pass. Helguera is no Koeman but he can pass the ball out of defence, likewise with Mendieta as opposed to Laudrup in midfield. Its far more workman-like than the Dream Team obviously, but he still carries a big goal-threat along with a solid defensive unit. Probably as much Mourinho 2004-05 as early 90s Cruyff, but a good team nonetheless!
Oh yeah, I would never underestimate a side with some of my personal favourites in it. I guess you didn't follow it all but I focused on constructing the sort of platform the Dream Team had while Cutch picked up the forwards. We crossed paths on Lucho (and I got Djemba), I had Guardiola blocked even when he forgot to go for him, and then we bumped into each other again over Zubizarreta 
Jammy fecker also got Romario because I didn't want to be the one ruling him out of the game (2nd attempt block and 3rd attempt failed bid would have resulted in that).
I'm quite happy with my team as it turned out, but certainly got the wrong end of the bargain as far as trying to replicate the Dream Team is concerned. It's actually far more like it functionally, but it isn't at all clear.
Or is it?
Jammy fecker also got Romario because I didn't want to be the one ruling him out of the game (2nd attempt block and 3rd attempt failed bid would have resulted in that).I'm quite happy with my team as it turned out, but certainly got the wrong end of the bargain as far as trying to replicate the Dream Team is concerned. It's actually far more like it functionally, but it isn't at all clear.
Or is it?
It started as 4-1-2-1-2, then with Baggio on board, he needed a free role.
What I really like is the flexibility and triangles it will open up. Cambiasso can move to a holding role allowing Alonso more creative freedom. Ballack is a great bridge between defence and offence. A free roaming Baggio on top of that. Creativity all over the place. Never know who will make a killer pass. The thing is I can't agree on the arrows bit. My players (and so arrows) will just be all over the place
What I really like is the flexibility and triangles it will open up. Cambiasso can move to a holding role allowing Alonso more creative freedom. Ballack is a great bridge between defence and offence. A free roaming Baggio on top of that. Creativity all over the place. Never know who will make a killer pass. The thing is I can't agree on the arrows bit. My players (and so arrows) will just be all over the place
I don't see the point of arrows when the movement of players is at the same time clear but also unlikely to be accurately captured by them, at least not in a static teamsheet where they can at times become counterintuitive (e.g. choosing the wrong arrows and "seeing" a spastic move that they probably wouldn't do).
Balu had a good thing going on in the last draft with different quadrants showing different moves they would do.
Balu had a good thing going on in the last draft with different quadrants showing different moves they would do.
When is the draw?
I suppose it's tomorrow once all those who picked someone in the draft have communicated who they are dropping. That should be finalised without rivals in mind.
Zero comments on my team. Maybe I should follow NMs lead and call all of you cnuts for not saying shit.
Oh yeah, I would never underestimate a side with some of my personal favourites in it. I guess you didn't follow it all but I focused on constructing the sort of platform the Dream Team had while Cutch picked up the forwards. We crossed paths on Lucho (and I got Djemba), I had Guardiola blocked even when he forgot to go for him, and then we bumped into each other again over Zubizarreta
I'm quite happy with my team as it turned out, but certainly got the wrong end of the bargain as far as trying to replicate the Dream Team is concerned. It's actually far more like it functionally, but it isn't at all clear.
Or is it?
It looks like you have put effort in to creating a van Gaal 3-3-1-3 than Cruyffs version of it. Which isnt bad by any means, but I think you have a more offensive front 4 with less defensive work rate and ability to maintain a high pressure defense. (bar Cavani who got work rate and pressing in him and Robben).
On the other hand your offense looks a lot more potent and dangerous than Cruyffs versions ever did thanks to that entire front 4 being interchangable, great dribblers and finishers. The midfield in Cocu and Schweinsteiger will have a much bigger part than the dreamteam midfield did, which also replicates Seedorf/Davids/that cm role in the 95 Ajax side very well.
Very hard to fully critique a team like that, as it really rises and falls with the managers tactical description. Has bags of potentials as the strengths are incredibly strong but the weaknesses can be glaring against the wrong team.
I am not sure which team would be able to coop with that offense over the course of a game if you have enough ball. I mean it really has everything anybody could want in an offense, flair, dribbling, width, playmaking, possession keeping, every single player is a huge asset in the offense and provides something unique, goals, well everything.
Last edited:
@Pat_Mustard
Everyone at this stage probably has a great team - I'd be surprised if they didn't - but from watching Sousa and Baggio they were perfect midfielders for a 4-4-2 IMO. Sousa won the (then) Serie A Footballer of the Year award in 1995 with Rube, playing as a central midfielder. He was always the deeper midfielder creating opportunities from deep. I can't say anything about his time in Germany, but he was a great, great midfielder in Italy.
Sousa only scored 2 goals, both of them great and important ones...
Baggio was a complete midfielder with a great engine, he turned up to a new level in cup finals with both Rube and Parma. In 5 UEFA finals, he scored 5 goals and had 1 assist from midfield. Scored 3 of Rube's 6 goals in 1993, scored 2 of Parma's 2 goals in 1995, and assisted 1 of Parma's 3 goals in 1999.
A real box-to-box midfielder with a great, great eye for goal with both heading and shooting.
Fast, strong, great technique and a strong presence in midfield, he is a good, if not great midfielder especially when he is able to be in the right group of players. He is a big aerial threat (188cm) so he, like Gullit would thrive from service by the wings.
Baggio could score from distance, with his weak foot, with his head (check out the crazy leap), and with brilliant chips. I always thought he was underrated a bit by the Italians that I know - he was great at the 1994 World Cup and was recognised as one of the best midfielders of the tournament.
I really rate the both of them, especially together. What made me more interested in them is that in spite of them playing for Rube, the year after they were both released from the team, they played extremely well in finals against Rube.
Baggio in 1995 scored 2 goals in the UEFA cup final against Rube, winning it with Parma
Sousa in 1997 won the UEFA cl final against Rube, winning it with Dortmund
They're not world beaters but they are the perfect players for a 4-4-2 system, like a Scholes-Keane duo.
Everyone at this stage probably has a great team - I'd be surprised if they didn't - but from watching Sousa and Baggio they were perfect midfielders for a 4-4-2 IMO. Sousa won the (then) Serie A Footballer of the Year award in 1995 with Rube, playing as a central midfielder. He was always the deeper midfielder creating opportunities from deep. I can't say anything about his time in Germany, but he was a great, great midfielder in Italy.
Sousa only scored 2 goals, both of them great and important ones...
Baggio was a complete midfielder with a great engine, he turned up to a new level in cup finals with both Rube and Parma. In 5 UEFA finals, he scored 5 goals and had 1 assist from midfield. Scored 3 of Rube's 6 goals in 1993, scored 2 of Parma's 2 goals in 1995, and assisted 1 of Parma's 3 goals in 1999.
A real box-to-box midfielder with a great, great eye for goal with both heading and shooting.
Fast, strong, great technique and a strong presence in midfield, he is a good, if not great midfielder especially when he is able to be in the right group of players. He is a big aerial threat (188cm) so he, like Gullit would thrive from service by the wings.
Baggio could score from distance, with his weak foot, with his head (check out the crazy leap), and with brilliant chips. I always thought he was underrated a bit by the Italians that I know - he was great at the 1994 World Cup and was recognised as one of the best midfielders of the tournament.
I really rate the both of them, especially together. What made me more interested in them is that in spite of them playing for Rube, the year after they were both released from the team, they played extremely well in finals against Rube.
Baggio in 1995 scored 2 goals in the UEFA cup final against Rube, winning it with Parma
Sousa in 1997 won the UEFA cl final against Rube, winning it with Dortmund
They're not world beaters but they are the perfect players for a 4-4-2 system, like a Scholes-Keane duo.
Oh yeah, I would never underestimate a side with some of my personal favourites in it. I guess you didn't follow it all but I focused on constructing the sort of platform the Dream Team had while Cutch picked up the forwards. We crossed paths on Lucho (and I got Djemba), I had Guardiola blocked even when he forgot to go for him, and then we bumped into each other again over Zubizarreta
I'm quite happy with my team as it turned out, but certainly got the wrong end of the bargain as far as trying to replicate the Dream Team is concerned. It's actually far more like it functionally, but it isn't at all clear.
Or is it?
To my infinite shame i think I've read the entire 116 pages, although I've been drunk for alot of it! You've put together a lovely team - I had you practically written off early on but you've rebounded in fine fashion. I don't know if you've got the attackers to pull off that formation though. Like Annah's mentioned, Ginola and Robben are as lazy as it gets, and Bergkamps's not going to do much either. I'd be tempted to stick with the 4-2-3-1 personally!
I'd say it's about even TBH. Cavani does far more than Romario, Bergkamp does more than Laudrup and had that nasty streak at times ala RvP. It's fair to say Robben and Ginola won't do as much work as Hristo, Txiki or Eusebio did, but it all sort of evens up while the attack is -as you say- more potent.
Differently from either Cruyff or van Gaal, both fullbacks are markedly better, the CMs are stronger all-round players and the loss of Pep is somewhat made up by Popescu's far greater defensive awareness and contribution. In short, it's a stronger defensive setup without sacrificing the electric counters and pizzazz going forward.
The weaknesses have been dealt with as much as they can without sacrificing the system. There are "wrong teams" to face that way but I plan to deal with that the same way they did: outscore them and, at worst, put up a fantastic show!
And when the other side has the ball they sure must worry of what I can do pretty much immediately after I recover it. It's deadly on the break.
I covered the workrate bit above. It's only really Brehme who will be more exposed than Sergi would have been. But then, it's Brehme...
Do you see a significant difference between this and the 4-2-3-1? In what way? Popescu essentially plays there in possession and drops into a two without it. That's the major difference in having him and not Guardiola, I don't particularly need to be making subs to switch between 3-4-3 and 4-3-3.
@Pippa Thanks for the post mate. I do rate Sousa especially. His passing was absolutely first-rate. Dino Baggio I'm a bit more unsure about - a good all-around midfielder, but not the top-class anchor that would complete your team imo. The fact is though that you've got Gullit in front of him and two tremendous centre backs behind, so it probably won't end up mattering!
Popescu will play Rijkaards role much more than he will play Guardiolas role and Schweinsteiger and Cocu will want to be a part of the build up whereas the dream team often saw Guardiola bypass the CM's to instantly find the AM/forward line.
Your defensive line consists of a dream team replica most certainly and I am not sure how well that will go down. The defense of the dream team with the offense and midfield of van Gaals Ajax. Brehme fits the criteria very well but Sagnol? Has he played such a disciplined role before with such an important role in the build up play which the Dream teams defensive line had.
I am really interested how you tactically describe the build up, does Popescu run up to that dictating DM role as soon as you get the ball? Does he wait until it has been played in to the midfield, which would then solve the Sagnol "issue" completely?
Dont take it as criticizing, more interest. Like I said your team looks very very good offensively.
Your defensive line consists of a dream team replica most certainly and I am not sure how well that will go down. The defense of the dream team with the offense and midfield of van Gaals Ajax. Brehme fits the criteria very well but Sagnol? Has he played such a disciplined role before with such an important role in the build up play which the Dream teams defensive line had.
I am really interested how you tactically describe the build up, does Popescu run up to that dictating DM role as soon as you get the ball? Does he wait until it has been played in to the midfield, which would then solve the Sagnol "issue" completely?
Dont take it as criticizing, more interest. Like I said your team looks very very good offensively.
I love it when I find player clips which aren't about goals but effortless playmaking with such grace and elegance
It also helps he is now a distant memory and not playing for them any more.
It also helps he is now a distant memory and not playing for them any more.
Aye, I guess that's true. Its a difference in emphasis more than anything. The 3-4-3 invites the full backs to be more conservative but allows Cocu and Schweinsteiger more room to push up. Vice versa with the 4-2-3-1. Personally I'd rather rather give Brehme and Sagnol more licence to create the overload and sacrifice the midfielders' attacking tendencies a bit. With Robben especially, Sagnol's overlaps create so much more space for him than having Schweinstieger to pass the ball back to.
Based on what? Not my instructions.
I don't think someone could play in defence for Bayern for nine years and not be disciplined. It's an oxymoron really.
I must keep something for the games though, no?
Last edited:
@antohan Very interesting set up and I've been staring at it for 10 mins now with random thoughts all over the place
Exceptional attack. But then how would it hold up against a proper 4-4-2. There are 2 teams playing that style in this draft. With pacey wing play, Popescu will become a full time defender and that may leave your midfield a bit vulnerable as it lacks support from people upfront. Then it becomes a who can score more contest!
Exceptional attack. But then how would it hold up against a proper 4-4-2. There are 2 teams playing that style in this draft. With pacey wing play, Popescu will become a full time defender and that may leave your midfield a bit vulnerable as it lacks support from people upfront. Then it becomes a who can score more contest!
Absolutely, I don't expect Cocu and Schweinsteiger to go mental going forward at all, they are very much there to pass the ball back to and restart the move when running into blind alleys. Sometimes that may entail some movement to make themselves available which may naturally lead to a forward run, if only to keep ball until a pass is on, but they aren't asked to bomb forward systematically.
@antohan Very interesting set up and I've been staring at it for 10 mins now with random thoughts all over the place
Exceptional attack. But then how would it hold up against a proper 4-4-2. There are 2 teams playing that style in this draft. With pacey wing play, Popescu will become a full time defender and that may leave your midfield a bit vulnerable as it lacks support from people upfront. Then it becomes a who can score more contest!
Very much how our games with Barca used to turn out
Now look at my team, obligatory cnuts
Yes, I agree with your overall thought on the two of them. They are two good midfielders, but IMO they are the weakest links in the team - despite their quality. it is why I initially wanted to get Redondo, because his vertical style would be very successful when partnered with someone like Baggio, and there is always the idea to play something crazy like this
@antohan How would your team work out against a team like this, out of interest?
I'd turn the tables then and ask what you think the advantages are in identifying as a 3-4-3 rather than a 4-2-3-1? Cocu and Schweinstieger can do exactly what you ask of them in the 4-2-3-1, Brehme and Sagnol are more familiar with 4 man defences, so why go with the 3-4-3?
Yes, I agree with your overall thought on the two of them. They are two good midfielders, but IMO they are the weakest links in the team - despite their quality. it is why I initially wanted to get Redondo, because his vertical style would be very successful when partnered with someone like Baggio, and there is always the idea to play something crazy like thiswhich I do think would work in theory, Gullit with his back to goal using his exceptional physique. if only there were more goal-scoring wide players à la Cristiano and Robben instead of "touchline" dribbling types in Donadoni and Giggs.
I think it would and it's how Sousa would be best utilised as well. I like it, which is why I "picked" Redondo in the first turn
We'll see if we get drawn together
cnuts
Roy Keane would have been the perfect pick for you in the last round imo. Absolutely familiar with that 4-4-2 and a great ball-winner to allow Sousa a platform to perform. Have you completely ruled out starting Djukic alongside Silva and playing Desailly as the defensive midfielder? I haven't really thought it through but that looks a decent option to me.
Now look at my team, obligatory cnuts
Really hard to criticize it. You have a very solid team, but solidity is really the only critique I can give it both positively and negatively.
You are completely reliant on the full-backs to provide any sort of width and centrally you don't have the possession players to dominate this game enough to get the full-backs involved consistently.
I think you will be best of winning the ball back then attacking very directly with the help of your incredible offensive trio.
Like in most of these drafts it will be about who you are drafted against and as all teams you need to get the right opponent. Versus a very narrow opponent you will be among their worst nightmares.
Last edited:
Because most teams in these drafts, particularly as they progress, play one man upfront so it makes more sense to have Popescu keeping tabs on the creator in the hole. Even when there are two upfront you have the likes of Gullit or Baggio who you probably want to contain at source, at least while you wait for cover to arrive and make things more compact.
The fullbacks effectively are doing regular fullback jobs for the most part going back and forth all game long, no significant difference. These aren't RCB/LCB roles in a back three with wingbacks.
I already told Brwned what my thoughts were!
What were they?
Impatient, drunken goon.
My favourite team so far. The lack of width is the obvious flaw in the formation, but Maldini and Jorginho will provide enough given the creativity and quality elsewhere.
I hate the thought of Koeman getting caught one on one against the likes of Romario. The spare man that the back four provides is a necessary insurance policy for me.