Webber messed up , simple as that.
Vettel is in a class of his own atm.
Good race all the same.
The F1 Thread 2013 Season
- Thread starter nemanja15
- Start date
Webber messed up , simple as that.
Vettel is in a class of his own atm.
Good race all the same.
As far as I understand Alonso is the best driver followed my Vettel who my be equal ore slightly worst.
With Vettel what percentage is it driver-car, in regards to his performances.
With Vettel what percentage is it driver-car, in regards to his performances.
I just dont understand this , 4 times World Champion , 7 race wins this season and still people put it down to the car, yes OK the car is the best out there and it still has to be driven.
It is like saying we only won our PL titles because SAF was in charge, the players still had to go out and get the results.
I can understand the hate for Vettel, I used to be the same and even now watching him win is boring, but to say he is not the best out there I think is just not right.
It is like saying we only won our PL titles because SAF was in charge, the players still had to go out and get the results.
I can understand the hate for Vettel, I used to be the same and even now watching him win is boring, but to say he is not the best out there I think is just not right.
I personally think Hamilton is better than both... when he can be bothered. However, once he gets to the point where the car's no longer competitive he kind of gives up the ghost, so you'd have to say that Alonso beats him overall as a driver. With regards to Vettel, I don't think he would have accrued anywhere near as many points as FA has, had been in the Ferrari these last few seasons. It's odd to say this about a 4 time World Champion, but I don't think Vettel's racing ability has really been tested too often, and when it has, he's not looked as imperious as he does when he's in front. In fact, I'd say Raikkonen, Hamilton and Alonso are all better racers than him.
It isn't hate, its just facts. Vettel is class, nobody even his biggest doubters can deny that and he delivers on the potential of his car regularly. But if you truly believe he is 4 time WDC on talent alone you are wrong.
Great drivers are nothing without a winning car underneath them, let's not talk like Vettel is hauling a shitbox to titles here. On average across each season I think you can argue the Red Bull has been the best car since 2010, close at times, dominant at times but never really left for dead lower than say 6th has it? Mark Webber has continually underperformed or had technical issues since basically Korea 2010 with a handful of great performances.
Schumacher in his dominant years also had the best car, what was remarkable (and this applies to Vettel) is he just crushed the rest so consistently it becomes incapable of dismissing their achievements as "best car". If Vettel truly wants every F1 fan in the world to proclaim him as the best driver on talent alone he needs to either a) take on a world class teammate (not happening yet), b) move to a new team and not have a dominant car anymore. The Red Bull team for whatever reason is just operating on a different level to rest and I fear it will remain that way until they get bored or the masterminds behind it get taken away from them (ie Newey), they are like Barcelona in their prime right now and just have that perfect blend to succeed.
In my opinion (and I say this as a known Hamilton fan) Formula 1 in its current format does not lend itself well to a driver like Hamilton. If I had to choose a driver to win my races right now it would be between Vettel or Alonso.......possibly Raikkonen when he's motivated (ie paid).
I don't think he has won it on talent alone, I just think he does not get the credit he deserves and you know I am not Vettels biggest fan.
I do think he has to go to another team to see what he can do not in a Red Bull, but that is not going to happen any time soon, I agree he also needs a team mate that will push him and push him hard , again not going to happen any time soon.
I would like to see what he does in a Lotus with Kimi has a team mate, now that would be interesting.
I am also a massive Lewis fans, he got me watching F1 again, in the right car and right frame of mind, which with him is a big thing he can beat Vettel, Alonso hands down, the Mercedes this season is not the car for Lewis, he must see something in Mercedes that nobody else can, maybe the new engines that are coming next season.
I have a question, if Vettel continues to keep winning, with the new engines next season and beyond, will he be accepted has one of the greats.
He's already accepted as one of the greats.
I agree that he is , but some still only see him has a passenger in a very good car.
Some of my mates thing he would do nothing in any other car.
He isn't a bad driver - just not up there with the likes of Senna, Schumacher etc
Count Orduck's tears in this thread every week are fecking hilarious 
Vettel's in a class of his own. He doesn't need Red Bull helping him out from fecking Webber of all people.
Vettel's in a class of his own. He doesn't need Red Bull helping him out from fecking Webber of all people.There's no doubt that Vettel is favoured by Red Bull (he's the far better driver so it's unsurprising, same as Alonso and Schumacher at Ferrari). But there's no way Red Bull sabotage their own driver. Vettel's had a few problems himself in the past, not as many as Webber granted, but there's no foul play involved imo.
Really ? even after 4 WC, Schumacher was pretty much the same has Vettel , had the best car was the best driver at the time and gets the same criticism has Vettel does now.
With Senna I would agree with you, he was in a class of his own and I have no doubt he would of been in double figures for WC wins.
Schumacher had the best car, won two titles, and left to Ferrari where he had a crap car and still nearly won the title in 97 and 98. He took his people, rebuilt the team and made them contenders. Vettel will leave - and try to do the same. How he does then will determine if he is better than Schumacher
Cant argue with any of that.
Why is it necessary for him to leave? I predict Redbull not having the quickest car next year. We will see how he does then.
It's like some people who say Messi should leave Barcelona and succeed with another team to prove he's truly great. We want loyalty. And then we want people to leave teams.
Vettel's got something great going on. I don't see why he should be looking elsewhere at all just to prove he could do it under difficult circumstances. Obviously Ferrari in itself was just a great challenge for Schumacher back then. Not sure there's anything as interesting around to pull Vettel away from Red Bull. Maybe if they lose their domination - which will happen sooner or later - it will be easier to look elsewhere.
No. it's the people (including me) who saw Schumacher do that, and think Vettell needs to do something similar before fanboys proclaim him the greatest of all time (a title that shouldn't even be Schumacher's.. It should be Senna)
Webber opened up in the press conference about the delta in the performance between him & Vettel this year and simply attributed it down to him not liking the softer compound tyres that Pirelli have done this year. Vettel understands them better & gets the performance out of them and Webber simply burns them up too quick.
Ted Kravitz mentioned this point on his Notebook video, worth a watch if you get a chance.
Ted Kravitz mentioned this point on his Notebook video, worth a watch if you get a chance.
I certainly wouldn't call him the greatest just yet. But what if he wins eight or nine, all with Red Bull? We don't know everything that happens behind the scenes, but drivers play their part in car development. If Vettel helps Red Bull win consistently, doesn't have deserve some credit for that rather than be told it's not enough?
Does that explain the previous 3 championships he has won as well? I'm sorry but I don't buy that excuse from Webber, it's been the same for both of these drivers for their 4 year partnership now.
Pirelli's are vastly different to the Bridgestones though. Webber very nearly won a World Title on Bridgestones, he hasn't been in the same ballpark since the switch.
I really don't understand the attitude some have towards Vettel's success. I can almost guarantee that if Hamilton had produced the exact same results in a McLaren he'd be lauded on here as probably the greatest ever.
As far is having to move to another team to prove his worth, sorry but that's nonsense. He helps develop that Red Bull as much as any driver helps develop any car, his feedback to the engineers is supposed to be fantastic, and yet there are people who will try and argue that until he gets in a Caterham and wins every race he's not proven himself.
As for Webber, his reasoning of the tyres being the difference makes sense - like Leg-End says he's not been anywhere near since the switch to Pirelli. But again, some numpties think it's just Red Bull intentionally fecking him over. Mental.
As far is having to move to another team to prove his worth, sorry but that's nonsense. He helps develop that Red Bull as much as any driver helps develop any car, his feedback to the engineers is supposed to be fantastic, and yet there are people who will try and argue that until he gets in a Caterham and wins every race he's not proven himself.
As for Webber, his reasoning of the tyres being the difference makes sense - like Leg-End says he's not been anywhere near since the switch to Pirelli. But again, some numpties think it's just Red Bull intentionally fecking him over. Mental.
Couldn't agree more, people forget he is the youngest F1 driver to score a World Championship point and the youngest winner of a F1 race.
And this was done with a Torro Rosso, not a Red Bull.
How anyone can question his talent is bordering on ignorance, atm he is in a league of his own.
Analysis: How does Sebastian Vettel find the speed?
Posted on November 5, 2013
Never one to hand out praise readily to his team mate, Mark Webber said after the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix on Sunday, “Seb was on another planet today and was very, very strong in the first stint. He was in another category today.
“He was super quick and his tyres didn’t wear out, which is a recipe for disaster for the rest of the opposition, me included.”
Indeed the opening stint is a talking point; not only Vettel’s pace but the length of the run at 14 laps.
Webber had taken pole position confidently on the Saturday in the same car, his second in three races, indicating that he is driving well at the moment and is hooked up with the car, as he himself has acknowledges.
So how did Vettel manage to perform so far ahead of his team mate (and everyone else) in the opening stint of the race, in the same car with no adjustments made overnight?
With the help of JA on F1 technical adviser and former Toyota and Williams chief operations engineer Mark Gillan we will analyse that opening stint and look for insights into how Vettel has raised his game this season with the Red Bull car.
In the graph below the vertical axis is the lap time, with 102, for example meaning the time in seconds. So the times at the bottom of the graph are faster. Where the line goes up steeply indicates the driver going to the pits.
The horizontal axis is the number of race laps. So the first stint is the sequence of laps on the left of the graph. This graph is fuel corrected which means that the effect of 2.6kg per lap being burned off each lap is removed. This is a measure of pure pace. This is exactly the kind of graph that the F1 teams study after each race to look at their drivers performance against other drivers and cars.
It is self evident that Vettel’s pace in the opening stint is, as Webber says, like a different category of racing. The other teams will look at fuel corrected graphs like this one and conclude that he is on average 8/10ths of a second faster than anyone else and sometimes it’s more. Now engineers and teams look at time margins in terms of development time. How long would it take in the wind tunnel to find that time? In the case of Vettel’s 8/10ths of a second, that is 20 weeks, or half a season of development. That’s how far ahead he is. It is a good job that the rules are changing for next year.
Exhaust blown diffusers will not be permitted next season, so the drivers will have to adapt to a totally new way of driving. This in itself will be a race, to see who can master the car they have in the conditions required to get the maximum from it, as Alain Prost was saying at the weekend.
Part of this speed, is from his mastery of the exhaust blown diffuser, which is particularly effective in the 13 corners at Yas Marina circuit which are below 130km/h. As we explained in a previous post, Red Bull has really focussed on this area in terms of aerodynamic development and optimisation of engine mapping for exhaust blowing the diffuser.
But it’s clear that Vettel has adapted his driving style over the last few months to maximise the strengths of the package in this condition; the two go hand in hand, as it were. And given that Webber is driving the same car and is extracting the maximum out of it over a single lap in qualifying now, it’s remarkable how Vettel has developed his style for the opening laps of the race, taking into account that the car is 150 kilos heavier (due to the full race fuel load) at the start.
Faced with such an overpowering performance from the sister car, Webber was forced to admit after the race that he struggles to feel these Pirelli tyres once the initial peak performance starts to fade. It has been the case since Pirelli entered F1 in 2011.
Setting the car up to take more grip from the tyre on a single lap is usually detrimental to long run performance as it eats up the tyres.
Vettel has found a way in terms of balancing and driving his car, to extract close to the maximum consistently in qualifying, but then to push hard on heavy fuel at the start at the same time as maintaining the life of the tyres over a longer period. It’s about not sliding the tyres too much, being precise with the steering in those sub 130km/h corners, being precise with the throttle on corner exit to avoid wheelspin which also overheats the tyres.
A lot of development has gone on by Red Bull and Mercedes to dissipate the heat from the wheels so the tyres don’t get too hot. Again there is an optimum way to drive this condition and that requires adaptation.
Of course it helps to run in clear air and Vettel’s tactic is to push hard in the opening two laps to get clear of the DRS detection zone and then to drive precisely. One of the most damaging things to tyres is having to defend from a car behind.
Gillan does not mince words when analysing this graph: “This is the most impressive stint I’ve seen,” he says. “Especially when you compare it with his team mate who is no dummy and who qualified the same car on pole.
“I always wondered how good Vettel is and now I see that he is really very good.”
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/11/analysis-how-does-sebastian-vettel-find-the-speed/
Sky are reporting that McLaren might replace Perez for the 2014 with Kevin Magnussen, never heard of him, I would be shocked if Perez was binned off after only 1 season.
http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/1...sly-considering-kevin-magnussen-for-2014-seat
http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/1...sly-considering-kevin-magnussen-for-2014-seat
Is he the one in their young driver program?
I read earlier today that Perez was on the verge of agreeing an extension.
I read earlier today that Perez was on the verge of agreeing an extension.
You know your getting old when the sons of drivers you have seen racing start appearing, he is very highly rated though.
Yep it pretty much does when Pirelli's have had that much of an impact to the races over those championships. You get the tyres right then you get the performance, it's not a secret.
He thinks he's untouchable.
The gifs of him being unable to use a revolving door are the most entertaining f1 related thing I've seen this year.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/robinedds/bernie-ecclestone-doesnt-know-how-to-use-a-revolving-door
http://www.buzzfeed.com/robinedds/bernie-ecclestone-doesnt-know-how-to-use-a-revolving-door
That's brilliant
Spoke with a mate who works for an F1 team last night, we got talking about how the cars have looked the past few years and how basically since the 2009 reg change they are starting to look half decent again. He's a coy fecker so he never directly said it, but in so many words he said the 2014 cars are going the way of the ugly again (atleast from his own teams perspective). Great.
Spoke with a mate who works for an F1 team last night, we got talking about how the cars have looked the past few years and how basically since the 2009 reg change they are starting to look half decent again. He's a coy fecker so he never directly said it, but in so many words he said the 2014 cars are going the way of the ugly again (atleast from his own teams perspective). Great.
Which team does he work for Leg-End? Mock up's i've seen so far dont look that bad:
Off topic, i keep seeing Dan Roan in Hale.
Off topic, i keep seeing Dan Roan in Hale.
Force India.
But yeah going from the mockups and rules we know I thought they may look better, I much prefer the lower nose cars myself. Then again he might be pulling my pisser, he wouldn't go into detail on anything.
But yeah going from the mockups and rules we know I thought they may look better, I much prefer the lower nose cars myself. Then again he might be pulling my pisser, he wouldn't go into detail on anything.
Factory with a bit of travel when necessary I think, he's an office dude not an engineer. I actually had the chance to go see some private straightline testing this season but couldn't get off work for it, hopefully get to go next year.
Kimi has reportedly decided to have back surgery and will miss rest of season (BBC). No real surprise there, but may come back to haunt Renault if they need the points in the constructors championship