The Euro Draft - QF - Team EAP vs Raees

[Chesterlestreet]

Against France, it is well noted he was played as a 'Withdrawn Centre Forward' with specific man marking task of taking out Kopa.

If he was man marking Kopa, he wasn't playing as a “withdrawn centre forward” - that seems pretty obvious.

Whoever wrote that must have been using the wrong term – or perhaps confused his role with the one he also played, namely as a, well – withdrawn forward in modern parlance. AFAIK he did play (especially at club level, earlier in his career), as both an inside- and a centre forward. But he obviously did not play either role when he was tasked with keeping track of Raymond Kopa.

 

[Annahnomoss]

This is based on his euro performances?? He has 13 assists in his whole international career. He is a greedy player, in 2004 Henrik Larsson made him look better than he was.. I have watched enough to know this.. He is not like bergkamp where he will look to get the ball to henry indirectly or directly, ibrahimovic loves his name in lights so if there is a chance to smash one from 20+ yards or pass to a team mate he usually go himself.. Just my opinion..

Ibrahimovic wasn't a great player in 2004 or 2008, but I think @Balu that it shouldn't count against the player? It is up to the manager to choose which tournament that of the player you want to use and in 2012 he was in his peak and a great assist provider too.

Better than me talking, here is his performances there summed up. Last time I checked he was involved with 1 goal per game with 2 goals and 1 assist in 3 games against superior opponents in terms of individual ability.

 

[Balu]

You said he played as a CB in this match and the ciec match. Am trying to double check that match but its clearly stated he played as a forward in this one? Which counters your original post.

I wouldn't trust transfermarkt on that. They often get the modern line-ups wrong, I doubt they've a clue what happened in games from that far back.

http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...tische-austellung_frankreich_jugoslawien.html

That looks more like a sensible version of the line-ups in that game with both teams playing 2-3-5ish formations and you can easily see Zebec as a central defender here if you translate his role into a modern formation. It's not 100% the same, but it's not really a big deal either in my book.

Against France, it is well noted he was played as a 'Withdrawn Centre Forward' with specific man marking task of taking out Kopa.

Sorry, I'm not convinced he played in defence at all for the national team, more so in Euros.

What game are you talking about? Kopa never played in a Euro as far as I know.

 

[antohan]

If he was man marking Kopa, he wasn't playing as a “withdrawn centre forward” - that seems pretty obvious.

Whoever wrote that must have been using the wrong term – or perhaps confused his role with the one he also played, namely as a, well – withdrawn forward in modern parlance. AFAIK he did play (especially at club level, earlier in his career), as both an inside- and a centre forward. But he obviously did not play either role when he was tasked with keeping track of Raymond Kopa.

That said, it could explain the scoreline

 

[Balu]

If he was man marking Kopa, he wasn't playing as a “withdrawn centre forward” - that seems pretty obvious.

Whoever wrote that must have been using the wrong term – or perhaps confused his role with the one he also played, namely as a, well – withdrawn forward in modern parlance. AFAIK he did play (especially at club level, earlier in his career), as both an inside- and a centre forward. But he obviously did not play either role when he was tasked with keeping track of Raymond Kopa.

That said, it could explain the scoreline

Seriously guys, France played without their superstars in 1960. No Kopa and no Fontaine. What are you talking about?

 

[harms]

I was told to be quiet and enjoy the draft from outside. As long as none of the kids starts crying, they can play by their own rules. I'm good with that.

good parenting here, Balu

 

[Annahnomoss]

Yeah, he's a sweetiepie

 

[antohan]

I wouldn't trust transfermarkt on that. They often get the modern line-ups wrong, I doubt they've a clue what happened in games from that far back.

http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...tische-austellung_frankreich_jugoslawien.html

That looks more like a sensible version of the line-ups in that game with both teams playing 2-3-5ish formations and you can easily see Zebec as a central defender here if you translate his role into a modern formation. It's not 100% the same, but it's not really a big deal either in my book.

What game are you talking about? Kopa never played in a Euro as far as I know.

I was waiting for the kicker service to resume re: Zebec. TBH, that's centrehalf and while they had defensive duties I wouldn't equate it to a disciplined centreback role. But then, his role here isn't a conventional CB one.

Re: Kopa, he is probably referring to the WC group game, although Spanish wiki had both Kopa and Fontaine starting and scoring in that Euro game. Goes to show how reliable it is, they actually credited the goals to players who weren't even on the pitch It did fool me for a while though and had me wondering whether all the managers in this had gone mental overlooking them.

 

[MJJ]

I wouldn't trust transfermarkt on that. They often get the modern line-ups wrong, I doubt they've a clue what happened in games from that far back.

http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...tische-austellung_frankreich_jugoslawien.html

That looks more like a sensible version of the line-ups in that game with both teams playing 2-3-5ish formations and you can easily see Zebec as a central defender here if you translate his role into a modern formation. It's not 100% the same, but it's not really a big deal either in my book.


What game are you talking about? Kopa never played in a Euro as far as I know.

Ahh fair enough, that will do. It just leaves us with his poor performance in euros in that case

Edit-one more comment. Both zebec and kohler are almost playing libero roles here I. E. Pushing up ahead of the rest of the defense. With Beckenbauer and Rijkaard doing the same (not at the same time of course) I can see it causing some issues. The amount of coordination and teamwork to pull that off is remarkable and am not sure you can just apply it here.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

EAP is referring to the WC group stage match against France in '58 – a classic Zebec performance.

He was on some sort of man marking duty – taking care of Kopa. He also bombed forward quite a bit when his side were in possession – it was a great performance on his part. But the term “withdrawn centre forward” is obviously wildly misleading.

 

[antohan]

Seriously guys, France played without their superstars in 1960. No Kopa and no Fontaine. What are you talking about?

See above.

 

[antohan]

@Balu

 

[coolredwine]

He doesn't fear me and Maldini and Blance being above all others is a joke of a statement, when Facchetti led Italy to Euro 1968 glory as captain and we have the likes of Beckenbauer in our side.

Yep, the same way Henry doesn't worry us as his claim to fame is against an Italy side which did feck all in the tournament.

Plus we are anyway facing a team in which the players are out of position, so yeah...

 

[Balu]

EAP is referring to the WC group stage match against France in '58 – a classic Zebec performance.

He was on some sort of man marking duty – taking care of Kopa. He also bombed forward quite a bit when his side were in possession – it was a great performance on his part. But the term “withdrawn centre forward” is obviously wildly misleading.

Oh, that makes a bit more sense.

 

[Balu]

@Balu

 

[Raees]

Yep, the same way Henry doesn't worry us as his claim to fame is against an Italy side which did feck all in the tournament.

Seriously what is this rubbish.. they got to the final and lost by a golden goal, hardly feck all.

If it is going to be 3 v 1, please make it more difficult for me. Gio's bored off his tits.

 

[Balu]

was waiting for the kicker service to resume re: Zebec. TBH, that's centrehalf and while they had defensive duties I wouldn't equate it to a disciplined centreback role. But then, his role here isn't a conventional CB one.

Yeah, that's fair enough. From what I've seen of Zebec, I'd say he was some sort of defensive midfielder/centerback hybrid who could do a man-marking job. I don't think it's wrong to use him as a centerback in a back three and have him do a marking job, it's really not far off his role in the team back then.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Better than me talking, here is his performances there summed up. Last time I checked he was involved with 1 goal per game with 2 goals and 1 assist in 3 games against superior opponents in terms of individual ability.

Sorry Annah, you've lost me here.

Attack:
Henry has 3 goals in his Euro peak at 2000. Zlatan has 2 goals and 1 assist in 3 games.
Kluivert singly has scored equal to both his attackers combined. Add in Puskas who has a incredible tally of 10 goals in CEIC. Then you have Gullit there.

Defence:
Facchetti vs Breitner - Break even
.
Beckenbauer / Kohler <> Blanc / Campbell - I think this is break even as all have proven Euro credentials.
.
Amoros vs Durkovic - Amoros was not even close to his peak, but Durkovic made TotT in a period when it was not a farce.
.
The only difference is Zebec whose Euro form has a big "?" under it.

Midfield:
Soren Lerby - What exactly is his Euro peak? 1984, 1988? I thought his career peak was around 88 where Denmark did feck all in Euros. Am I getting it wrong here? Some help?
On the flip side, same question can be raised over Schweinsteiger, whom I personally do consider having had a good tournament.

 

[Balu]

Why no draw option this time?

Because we don't do draws anymore. Draws are boring.

Seriously, there was a long discussion about it after the first first round game and that was kinda the final call on my part. No draws anymore, keep the voting as easy as possible and force as many people as possible to make a decision.

 

[Raees]

Sorry Annah, you've lost me here.


Defence:
Facchetti vs Breitner - Break even
.
Beckenbauer / Kohler <> Blanc / Campbell - I think this is break even as all have proven Euro credentials.
.
Amoros vs Durkovic - Amoros was not even close to his peak, but Durkovic made TotT in a period when it was not a farce.

Fachetti did not have Beckenbauer, Vogts and Schwarzenbeck as his team mates, he was the De Facto leader of that defence and the captain. Very different to Breitners influence in that side from left back. Fachetti wins here.

That is a laughable statement on Kaiser and Kohler, they're easily superior. I have also already proven Campbells credentials in Euros are poor.. see Euro 2004.

Amoros is reknowned as one of the greatest full backs in the modern game, just because his side didn't perform you're going to make out like he was some weak link.. he's bloody 30 not over the hill.

Team EAP has done nothing but make ridiculous unfounded claims all game, poor form lads. How about you actually talk about the likes of Puskas and how they will fare in this game, we have not once denigrated your side on anything other than how we think tactically we can expose a weakness whereas as you've spent the entire match up behaving like the witches from Macbeth.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I was waiting for the kicker service to resume re: Zebec. TBH, that's centrehalf and while they had defensive duties I wouldn't equate it to a disciplined centreback role. But then, his role here isn't a conventional CB one.

He also played as a fullback (old school), that is with someone else on centre half duty – and that (a left FB role) would definitely compare to a modern CB role. Not sure exactly what role he played in the relevant (Euro) context, though – again, he was capable of playing just about anywhere.


For what it's worth, he's described as having played a key role in Yugoslavia's comeback against France in '60 – so wherever he played, he didn't play poorly.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Sorry Annah, you've lost me here.

Attack:
Henry has 3 goals in his Euro peak at 2000. Zlatan has 2 goals and 1 assist in 3 games.
Kluivert singly has scored equal to both his attackers combined. Add in Puskas who has a incredible tally of 10 goals in CEIC. Then you have Gullit there.

It isn't a comparison, someone said Henry and Ibrahimovic was a poor partnership and I disagreed. If someone comes in and says Kluivert is too poor of a goalscorer for this draft then I'll make the same post showing that he has a great Euro-record in that regard!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Fachetti did not have Beckenbauer, Vogts and Schwarzenbeck as his team mates, he was the De Facto leader of that defence and the captain. Very different to Breitners influence in that side from left back. Fachetti wins here.

That is a laughable statement on Kaiser and Kohler, they're easily superior. I have also already proven Campbells credentials in Euros are poor.. see Euro 2004.

Amoros is reknowned as one of the greatest full backs in the modern game, just because his side didn't perform you're going to make out like he was some weak link.. he's bloody 30 not over the hill.

lol, no way.

Baresi was one of the greatest sweepers in modern game, but he got flak for Euro performance. Don't see why Amoros need to be any better. Surely there must be a way to differentiate players like Durkovic who actually won something in the Euros?

Yes, I believe Zebec/Facchetti is too adventurous as I consider Zebec not near his peak at all and I can exploit that.

And don't you dare talk about leadership when I have Campbell in my team. If he were not black, he would have led both teams at the same time

 

[Raees]

And don't you dare talk about leadership when I have Campbell in my team. If he were not black, he would have led both teams at the same time

LOVE THAT

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

It isn't a comparison, someone said Henry and Ibrahimovic was a poor partnership and I disagreed. If someone comes in and says Kluivert is too poor of a goalscorer for this draft then I'll make the same post showing that he has a great Euro-record in that regard!

Makes sense. Gotcha!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Soren Lerby - What exactly is his Euro peak? 1984, 1988? I thought his career peak was around 88 where Denmark did feck all in Euros. Am I getting it wrong here? Some help?
On the flip side, same question can be raised over Schweinsteiger, whom I personally do consider having had a good tournament.

Why on earth would you think that? I mean, even if you just browse the sheer statistics without having seen a single match, it would be hard to reach that conclusion. He scored in Denmark's semi-final defeat in '84 – and in '88 Denmark were shite. How can you possibly think that a 30 year old Lerby was at his peak for a shite Denmark in '88? Seems like you're fishing a bit here – and not very effectively either.

Lerby, for me, was at his best when he played for Bayern. That is in the period which more or less includes Euro '84 and and WC '86. I think most would agree with that.

 

[Gio]

Beckenbauer / Kohler <> Blanc / Campbell - I think this is break even as all have proven Euro credentials.

Come on Beckenbauer and Kohler are souped up versions of Blanc and Campbell. I rate Sol higher than most, but his England side conceded 6 goals in 4 games in 2004. It's not the most compelling Euro CV on the park that's for sure.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

He also played as a fullback (old school), that is with someone else on centre half duty – and that (a left FB role) would definitely compare to a modern CB role. Not sure exactly what role he played in the relevant (Euro) context, though – again, he was capable of playing just about anywhere.


For what it's worth, he's described as having played a key role in Yugoslavia's comeback against France in '60 – so wherever he played, he didn't play poorly.

See, this is where I'm having some troubles.

1) He played middle of the midfield 3 in a 2-3-5 formation, which I would equate to closer to a modern defensive midfielder than a centre back.
2) And that was in 1960. Considering he retired in 1961, it's not that hard to assume he was not at his peak.
3) He's being played between Beckenbauer in a libero and Facchetti in a wing back role.

It's too big an ask from him here, esp with a prime Gullit there.

 

[MJJ]

@Raees going to tactics for a bit. From my understanding you are playing all three of your defenders will be moving up the pitch with Rijkaard dropping back at times. Both kohler and zebec default position will be ahead of Kluivert while one of becken /Rijkaard will play as a sweeper cum defensive mid depending on the phase of play. Can you elaborate how exactly that will work? Since I can't really think of any modern system employing that same strategy. It does look a bit like the man marking system of old which got destroyed due to forwards interchanging.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Lerby, for me, was at his best when he played for Bayern. That is in the period which more or less includes Euro '84 and and WC '86. I think most would agree with that.

Fair enough. I was asking because he won the European cup in 88. Don't know much about him tbf except from comments in previous drafts.

 

[Gio]

So not satisfied with all this gash about Rijkaard's position, we now have rubbish getting slung around about Zebec's role. Stick to the facts boys, it's not very becoming.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

See, this is where I'm having some troubles.

1) He played middle of the midfield 3 in a 2-3-5 formation, which I would equate to closer to a modern defensive midfielder than a centre back.

Indeed – that kind of “centre half” was clearly more like a modern DM of sorts than a CB.

Compare – for instance – the role Blanchflower played for United.

But Zebec also played as a left fullback – which is a different role. In a 2-3-5 he would be one of the two “proper” defenders, comparable to modern CBs in most ways – and that goes for a LB in the more progressive 3-2-2-3 (with variations) too.

The key question here is – of course – precisely where he actually played for Yugoslavia in the Euro context. And I can't help you there – I haven't seen the relevant matches and have only often unreliable/contradictory/unclear reports to go on.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Come on Beckenbauer and Kohler are souped up versions of Blanc and Campbell. I rate Sol higher than most, but his England side conceded 6 goals in 4 games in 2004. It's not the most compelling Euro CV on the park that's for sure.

No idea what those stats mean in context. I assume you are playing Kohler of 1992 here. In semis Germany won 3-2 and in finals lost 2-0 to Denmark. 4 goals cocneded in 2 games in the finals is as bad comparably.

 

[Gio]

See, this is where I'm having some troubles.

1) He played middle of the midfield 3 in a 2-3-5 formation, which I would equate to closer to a modern defensive midfielder than a centre back.
2) And that was in 1960. Considering he retired in 1961, it's not that hard to assume he was not at his peak.
3) He's being played between Beckenbauer in a libero and Facchetti in a wing back role.

It's too big an ask from him here, esp with a prime Gullit there.

I'm pretty sure the no5 shirt he wore for Yugoslavia from the age of around 27 onwards was for the centre of defence. He has Central European International Cup and Euros experience and was widely regarded as a world-class centre-half . He was a left-sided monster, much like Facchetti, so is a perfect fit for the left side of a back three. Zebec is very quick, tall and excellent in the air - negating Gullit's strengths. Unfortunately for Gullit, it's another physically exceptional athlete he has to face which will nullify some of his qualities. We also have Facchetti tucking in as and when required, an even more impressive athlete than either Zebec or Gullit, and one who has plenty of experience playing centrally if required. Fantastic player Ruud Gullit, but stuck in an extremely tough battle here.

 

[MJJ]

So not satisfied with all this gash about Rijkaard's position, we now have rubbish getting slung around about Zebec's role. Stick to the facts boys, it's not very becoming.

It's a fair question since it took this long to resolve it and still there are doubts. If you pick any old player, you should have proof of their performance otherwise it will be questioned. That's the whole premise of the draft. Considering there are question marks over whether he played as a defender, and him conceding 7 goals in two matches, why wouldn't we question how good he was in the euros?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

So not satisfied with all this gash about Rijkaard's position, we now have rubbish getting slung around about Zebec's role. Stick to the facts boys, it's not very becoming.

There is no rubbish. All you have to prove is that he played in a role comparable to modern CB in Euros ... preferably couple of years before his retirement in 1961.

There are so many great defenders but if we cannot peg a Euro peak we may as well include Baresi/Nesta etc are peak here.

 

[Gio]

No idea what those stats mean in context. I assume you are playing Kohler of 1992 here. In semis Germany won 3-2 and in finals lost 2-0 to Denmark. 4 goals cocneded in 2 games in the finals is as bad comparably.

Watch the games (sometimes I wonder how many of us actually watched Euro '92). Kohler is flawless throughout. The rest of the German defence weren't ultimately up to scratch. Good example from the final - Danish striker racing onto a through ball, Kohler comes across and executes an impeccable sliding tackle, winning a ball that he had no right to win. He passes it to Brehme, who gets dispossessed and Denmark rattle in the opener.

 

[MJJ]

I'm pretty sure the no5 shirt he wore for Yugoslavia from the age of around 27 onwards was for the centre of defence. He has Central European International Cup and Euros experience and was widely regarded as a world-class centre-half . He was a left-sided monster, much like Facchetti, so is a perfect fit for the left side of a back three. Zebec is very quick, tall and excellent in the air - negating Gullit's strengths. Unfortunately for Gullit, it's another physically exceptional athlete he has to face which will nullify some of his qualities. We also have Facchetti tucking in as and when required, an even more impressive athlete than either Zebec or Gullit, and one who has plenty of experience playing centrally if required. Fantastic player Ruud Gullit, but stuck in an extremely tough battle here.

Given that he played in a WM kind of formation, he would have been a half back akin to a modern defensive mid if he was wearing that shirt. That's what we are a bit confused about, we didn't want this played out during the match. Hence eap pming you beforehand for clarification. He was a world class athlete and player but the question is whether his euro performances reflect that.

Also, if fachetti is your main outlet for width then there will be times zebec will be alone against Gullit which given his performance level could lead to goal chances for us.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The Euro peek question is, of course, important.

But there's no doubt that Zebec played as a defender for Yugoslavia (and various club teams) in the latter part of his career (he was past thirty in '60, unless I'm mistaken).

Whether he played as a CH or a LFB in '60 is perhaps less crucial – the more important question, for me, would be whether he had a good tournament or not. His ability to play as both a CH and a fullback (with someone else in the CH role, whether that be a DM, a sweeper or a libero in this – draft – context) is impossible to doubt.

Zebec was regarded as a revelation when he made the move to defence, so to speak – if he hadn't been an absolute top class defender, he wouldn't have earned his status: Part of his story is precisely that he truly emerged as a beast (as people say) as a defender – as a versatile, intelligent, offensively dangerous and incredibly fast defender.

David Luiz – only with brains. And defensive nous. And without that stupid face.

 

[Gio]

Given that he played in a WM kind of formation, he would have been a half back akin to a modern defensive mid if he was wearing that shirt. That's what we are a bit confused about, we didn't want this played out during the match.

Yugoslavia played a 3-2-2-3 up to 1960. Their number 5 was the central defender. That was Zebec for much of the period from 1957-1960.