I don't really see why a striker must leave the box for Messi to have goalscoring opportunities. Cole didn't leave the box for Yorke to score. All you need is an intelligent striker and someone to stretch the play wide right for Messi to be at his best. Also I don't see why Messi wouldn't flourish with two wingers in an offensive 442 formation with him as a second-striker.
The Double Draft - QF: harms vs Enigma
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Let's just say that I can see Van Basten linking way better with Dzajic than he would with Messi. With Messi in the role that harms is playing him in I prefer a more mobile, hard working and more flexible in wider areas forward than a full-fledged number 9. As well as a better goal scoring left wing-forward than a traditional touchline hugging left winger.
Ibra and Aguero beg to differ. Even David Villa was well known to suffer his game to accommodate Messi.
Agree that Dzajic isnt the best fit for Messi but with other we will have to agree to disagree because i can see him having a very good partnership with both.
Well, its just a matter of how highly do you rate someones footballing IQ. Id put Van Basten in tier number 1 of All-time list and this three would be happy to finish in tier number 2 for last 20 years.
Ibra has footballing IQ several levels above Suarez, but no one could argue that Suarez fit better with Messi.
ffs not everything is black and white. You dont have to be a footballing Einstein to create a great partnership with Messi(Suarez and Alves the perfect examples) but if someone is smarter(football wise) then 99% others of course he will have it easier to combine with another genius. For you, Ibra might be that genius, for me he isnt even close so we can end it here because i really cant be bothered to debate about Ibrahimovic....
Can't agree with you about the false 9 version being superior to the right wing, but it's personal preference. To be fair, while I, obviously, accepted his fantastic level, I can't say that I enjoyed his game as much as I did with Iniesta, for example. But in that treble season, when he moved back to the right wing (although he still roams everywhere), I found myself watching him in constant awe - and it was then when he challenged Pele's first place in the GOAT ranking for me. He is so amazingly selfless and he uses his vision and creativity and dribbling ability so often (while as a false 9 he was more focused on the goalscoring), it was that season when I finally and unconditionally fell in love with him.
Suarez's selfless play and Neymar's runs played a big part in Barca's success that season, but I don't think that they were the reason of Messi's godlike performance - he finally had the freedom he deserves without the burden of being the focal point of every attack and he thrived in this role. Seeler was more in the mould of Suarez, but van Basten offers entirely different skillset and I don't think that it suits Messi worse - like I said, even in this "secondary" role, van Basten creates space for Messi while also being a focal point who is capable of not only finishing, but also a fantastic supporting play.
Dzajic, while being an archetypical winger, cut inside quite often by the way (he has almost 1 in 2 record and you can just look at his performances at Euros to see how threatening he was cutting in), so he'll certainly get on the end of Messi's flying diagonal balls - while also providing a genuine wing presence that stretches the defence and allows Messi to move free between the lines
It's a different machinery to the comparable ones at Barca, so some of the points made are a bit moot, I feel – unless we're insisting on the old Proven principle (which I don't).
Would he work with a more or less straight-arse winger (a historically great one, mind) and a more or less straight-arse striker (of the sort who mainly does his business in the box – but again a historically great player)?
Why not? It's the version of Messi who's the most playmaker-ish we're talking about here. The one who's liable to drop fairly deep – hit it long, even (which he rarely did before), out wide, that sort of thing.
That version is still a considerable goal threat. He doesn't cease being that because Van Basten is (much more of) an according-to-Hoyle box operator than either of Messi's current foils at Barca.
I'd be much more worried about teaming him up with someone who is – like himself – more of a ball hogger/playmaker. In harms' setup here, Messi is clearly the main man – there's nothing hazy about it, very clear who does what. So the possible criticism would have to be that Messi's natural game would be positively hampered by Van Basten – and I don't see that happening at all. Messi will arguably be at his most dangerous, in a purely and directly attacking sense, when he's on the ball himself – moving into the box: He won't be banging about in the box without the ball much, alongside Van Basten, waiting to be served. In short, unless Van Basten starts taking up foolish attacking positions when Messi's on the ball, I don't really see what the problem is. I almost get the impression people want Van Basten to vacate the box in order to – in a manner of speaking - accommodate Messi whenever he decides to turn into a goal scorer (and not a playmaker), which seems absurd to me.
Would he work with a more or less straight-arse winger (a historically great one, mind) and a more or less straight-arse striker (of the sort who mainly does his business in the box – but again a historically great player)?
Why not? It's the version of Messi who's the most playmaker-ish we're talking about here. The one who's liable to drop fairly deep – hit it long, even (which he rarely did before), out wide, that sort of thing.
That version is still a considerable goal threat. He doesn't cease being that because Van Basten is (much more of) an according-to-Hoyle box operator than either of Messi's current foils at Barca.
I'd be much more worried about teaming him up with someone who is – like himself – more of a ball hogger/playmaker. In harms' setup here, Messi is clearly the main man – there's nothing hazy about it, very clear who does what. So the possible criticism would have to be that Messi's natural game would be positively hampered by Van Basten – and I don't see that happening at all. Messi will arguably be at his most dangerous, in a purely and directly attacking sense, when he's on the ball himself – moving into the box: He won't be banging about in the box without the ball much, alongside Van Basten, waiting to be served. In short, unless Van Basten starts taking up foolish attacking positions when Messi's on the ball, I don't really see what the problem is. I almost get the impression people want Van Basten to vacate the box in order to – in a manner of speaking - accommodate Messi whenever he decides to turn into a goal scorer (and not a playmaker), which seems absurd to me.
Euro 1968 2 goals in 3 games
Euro 1976 2 goals in 2 games
144 goals in 361 league games (wiki)
I quite like the discussion btw but I'm a little disappointed that it didn't happen sooner while the game was still on - and me and Enigma just bombarded each other with videos
It looks like he asked his childhood friend to create a new image for him and they went to the cheapest tattoo salon in Buenos-Aires, made some awful tattoos and got the free hair coloring as a bonus
It's great to see great players and all, so the videos do serve that purpose - but I've said before that I find the use of them a bit pointless in these arguments.
Or, rather - I find it a bit pointless when highlight videos of a player are posted as part of an argument (not saying that is what happened here, it's a general comment), as if to say "hey, look - he's great, eh?" But we all know he's great - we don't really doubt that.
"5:57 - look at that. There he does precisely what I'm talking about here, in a situation comparable to the one we're discussing - and he did this regularly." That sort of thing I have no problem with, as it actually illustrates the point.
Right wing Messi is more enjoyable to watch for me . His two greatest goals ( getafe and Bilbao) came from that position . False 9 Messi got all the records but I'd watch the treble winning version all day long if I could . His performance v man city from right wing was the stuff of footballing Elysium
It's great to see great players but it's not great to see them because we all know they are great: Chester Style? I'm joking
1. I'm not sure but I understand some prefer fast strikers like Etoo and others some target strikers like Van Basten. A matter of subjective preference.
2. Absolutely, an option I now consider given the pool of available wingers and wing-forwards.
I've always seen Van Basten as someone who could work with Messi..
He's very quick, great skill and intelligence and for me the thought of him and Messi linking up is a mouthwatering proposition. Just look at him in this vid and tell me you can't imagine him doing even better in a Barca, the man seems like the perfect striker for tiki aka.. he's got the ball retention skills for sure. Would MBV have to drift out wide a little more? would Messi have to do the same? of course, both would have to compromise their natural game a little, but the sum of its parts would be pretty beautiful I reckon. He's not more Ibra than Suarez, he's neither.. he's 5 times better than both of them.
As long as you're not static, play at a fast tempo, retain possession well and you have the confidence in your ability to play alongside Messi you will be fine. Ibra was a) immobile b) has an individualistic style of play which was hugely compromised by playing with Messi c) insecure and felt emasculated playing with him. I think Messi and Van Basten would get on quite well, he reminds me more of Eto'o in terms of how nimble they are and the confidence he has but again he is a more superior player than him too.
What I will say is that maybe Dzajic and Messi isn't the best of fits, and if you're going to go RW Messi with Marco, you need a more direct threat on the left.. a goalscoring wide forward.
He's very quick, great skill and intelligence and for me the thought of him and Messi linking up is a mouthwatering proposition. Just look at him in this vid and tell me you can't imagine him doing even better in a Barca, the man seems like the perfect striker for tiki aka.. he's got the ball retention skills for sure. Would MBV have to drift out wide a little more? would Messi have to do the same? of course, both would have to compromise their natural game a little, but the sum of its parts would be pretty beautiful I reckon. He's not more Ibra than Suarez, he's neither.. he's 5 times better than both of them.
As long as you're not static, play at a fast tempo, retain possession well and you have the confidence in your ability to play alongside Messi you will be fine. Ibra was a) immobile b) has an individualistic style of play which was hugely compromised by playing with Messi c) insecure and felt emasculated playing with him. I think Messi and Van Basten would get on quite well, he reminds me more of Eto'o in terms of how nimble they are and the confidence he has but again he is a more superior player than him too.
What I will say is that maybe Dzajic and Messi isn't the best of fits, and if you're going to go RW Messi with Marco, you need a more direct threat on the left.. a goalscoring wide forward.
The debate above stated that Messi thrived when there was a central striker who would drift wide allowing Messi to cut in and score. My point was you can have one central player in the box and there still be space for a second striker to score. So in my view Messi just needs a good technical 9 who can link up well to be at his best. So MVB is perfect as would Lewandowski in today's world.
True but how many of those goals were from making direct off the ball runs darting into the box like you would see from the likes of Neymar and earlier Pedro. That was truly the highlight of the show and Messi's vision wouldn't be used to full extent if someone isn't making those sort of runs with directness and pace. Dzajic from what I've watched is certainly not in the mould of a modern day wing forward, in fact if I have to show someone what a traditional definition of a winger would be Dzajic would one of the top names for it.
I'm not as convinced about that either. I'm sure harms knows more than me about Dzajic but he was the main man himself for most of his career especially in terms of time on the ball and carrying it past defenders. That's what I know him for, so that part isn't as clear cut either. As others have said his style of play isn't ideal for the RW incarnation of Messi given how he excelled when he had the ball to run at defenders time and again. With Messi, wide players who contribute more off the ball and in goalscoring have fit better than natural wingers. You can see that in the current Barca team. Neymar at Santos was THE MAN, everything went through him, he had the ball for 90% of the game but his best at Barca came when he concentrated on stretching play and making incisive runs behind the shoulder of the last defender, usually on the counter, and getting on the end of Messi's passes. That's really a huge reason of Messi performing as well as he did, his two attacking partners were selfless, complimenting, flexible and fluid in terms of playing centrally or out wide and constantly allowed him to run the show.
Basically with Messi as RW in a 4-3-3, you need two other forward, and not an old fashioned winger.
And again, this is not to say that this won't work at all but in such a match up of numerous legends on show, the difference between what comes naturally and what needs to be worked on can be the difference between victory and defeat.
Why do you think that if Neymar is capable of such change, Dzajic isn't?
Dzajic never had the luxury of playing with anyone with even half of his talent, he was always the main man and that's actually the reason behind his goalscoring stats - he is, like Garrincha, probably the best example of the pure winger, but as he was directly responsible for the result, he also made lots of runs on and off the ball into the box to score (because no one else would). His off the ball movement is actually very underrated, even more so than I thought, but most of his goals weren't scored after dribbling runs, it was mostly one or two touches in the box after the pass/cross from his teammates
He has the skillset to perform such a role with Messi, whenever he has it in him or not to be in the supporting cast to a superior player is a pure speculation, as he never played with one, but I genuinely believe that he has. And if he has not it's pointless to pick him in an all-time draft, really, as there will always be Messis and Maradonas
I agree about Van Basten. Suarez brings more self-sacrifice but that's a small price to pay for superior touch, link-up play and presence: all of which would enable Messi to shine. Inevitably the goals would be shared out more than 2012 Messi, but that's a good thing for the sake of the team.
Given that this is the q-f of an all-time draft, in which it is expected that you field top notch players in every position, I think you're being very difficult here. You're now saying that Dzajic would work better as the main ball player - or hogger. Fine - who would you team him up, then? A historically great playmaker who didn't really like the ball that much? Or must we discard Dzajic altogether - one of history's greatest wingers - because he doesn't really suit any kind of setup in which he can't be on the ball all the time?
Basically, you want Messi as a false nine - and that is that. No compromises - it's that or bust.
Well, I strongly disagree.
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It's all really conjecture at this stage mate. For me, Dzajic and Neymar have entirely different skillsets and I consider the latter the one that suits Messi's right wing play (or false 9 as well) a lot better than the former. We are talking of a classical old fashioned winger as opposed to a modern day wing forward, tactically they are miles apart. The main change Neymar had to make was not get the ball as much as he did, but his off the ball contribution was always there, he was always willing to make runs behind the defender. Maybe Dzajic can become that sort of player, but by what I know him for, that would need him to drop a lot of what made him great and essentially become a completely new player, to a point that we are not talking about Dzajic anymore. Skillset or evidence wise it's not something I'd consider when talking about these players. It's a valid criticism and not a slight on their quality whatsoever. And fyi, if you do consider Dzajic to become a wing forward from a traditional winger, you lose the brilliant natural partnership between him and Van Basten which only comes from the fact that Dzajic performs his conventional wing play and finds the Dutchman in the box.
I'd be cautious on continuing on the lines of 'what this player CAN do', these are all time greats, at one point you can simply imagine them doing anything which is fair enough but also makes any discussion pointless. We have to keep in a fair account of what they actually did, what made them the greats they are and how much of that is going to be in play in the roles given to them.
You have assembled a fine attack, but from my point of my view it's not ideal. Brilliant in some parts but also not complimentary in some. Don't think that's an unfair assessment, to be honest.
Not at all, I enjoyed him the most on the right, before and after he was a false 9. Especially the younger version, he wasn't at his peak but he was by far at his most entertaining. As he was later in the recent years. There's a big difference between entertaining and pleasing to the eye and quality on the pitch, effectiveness, decisiveness and consistency, which was obviously the maximum when he played up front and could combine his creativity and goal scoring to the maximum. As pleasing as the 40 yard lobs to Neymar were, it required the brilliance of another player and more of a team effort, whereas as a false 9 he was a one man juggernaut, all he needed was the ball at his feet and that's it.
Anyway, none of that is relevant here. He's absolutely fine in the role here, it's his partners I'm not that comfortable with, but to each his own. In an ideal attack with Messi on the right, I'd simply have a wing forward ahead of a traditional winger any day, that's it.
Sure, but quality has nothing to do with the playing style. There are top notch wing forwards as well, who would combine better in this particular case than a top notch out and out winger. Someone like Henry at his peak would be absolutely devastating with Messi's vision and accurate long and short passes (just an example, not to compare him with Dzajic).
Fair enough, but you're very demanding if you...er, demand an ideal attack at this stage. A very good attack - sure, we have to demand that. Ideal, though, in terms of balance - is extremely hard to assemble in an all-time draft.
And this is just the q-f to boot.
But I don't agree with the basic argument - as I take it - either: It seems that much of the concern is that Messi's - call it what you will - natural movement (where he is on the pitch at any given time - which positions he can take up effectively) will be significantly obstructed if he isn't teamed up with players who replicate the movements of Suarez/Neymar: I may be wrong in assuming this, but that's what it looks like - the idea is that Messi depends on that pattern (of movement), not that he is a player who, like any other player/playmaker, depends on some kind of movement (by top class and preferably intelligent team mates).
It's too much of the "proven" principle for me.
I'll think about it but I'll guess I would have to accept that I'll be beginning the game with 2 or 3 votes down, don't think that any other player with bring more to the table, considering not only the comparability with Messi but to the whole front 3
In an all time draft with no restrictions? Shouldn't be any problem whatsoever.
But hey, it's easy to talk from the sidelines!
And on that note, I dare say that Messi suffers from this to a greater extent than other GOATs.
He can't be trusted to get the best out of team mates who do not resemble - as player types, and pretty specific ones at that - his historical ones to a significant degree.
Now, I will concede that part of this has to do with the fact that Messi is less of a "general" on the pitch than Di Stefano or Maradona - and a less complete player/playmaker than, say, Cruyff - but that isn't the full explanation.
With the others - not least Maradona - it's often a case of easily upgrading his supporting cast, without too much scrutiny of the original cast members. With Messi, the latter is impossible - everyone knows his teams in and out, and most of his supporting cast are/were top level players who often feature prominently in these drafts themselves.
In an all time draft with no restrictions? Shouldn't be any problem whatsoever.
But hey, it's easy to talk from the sidelines!
Strange thing to say but dunno. You only have to be better than your opponent, ideal or not. But yes I myself have lost plenty of votes because people didn't personally like the tactics or whatever even if it was better than the opponent. Shouldn't happen, but it does.
In an all time draft with no restrictions? Shouldn't be any problem whatsoever.
But hey, it's easy to talk from the sidelines!
Strange thing to say but dunno. You only have to be better than your opponent, ideal or not. But yes I myself have lost plenty of votes because people didn't personally like the tactics or whatever even if it was better than the opponent. Shouldn't happen, but it does.
Balance? I'd say balance is a problem - often. The moment you have to accomodate several GOAT level players who liked the ball - or liked to command, or liked to orchestrate, or liked to be the main finisher on the park - balance becomes a problem.
If we're looking at what would realistically work in an actual match, there's much to be said for dropping both B, C and D - and surround A with a much less stellar supporting cast. But you can't do that - because nobody would buy it. So, "balance" is relative - has to be. It's not a realistic balance (because it never includes certain elements - psychological ones, if you will, not least) but a "fantasy balance" of some kind.
I believe once you reach the absolute top, that becomes a problem. I mean when you are talking of the likes of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Di Stefano and multiple of them playing together. And even then the main criticism is usually that all of them would want to be the main man, that's not the case here. I'm purely disagreeing with the style of play of a certain player. I'm a bit surprised how it's difficult to see that a modern goal scoring wing forward would be a better fit for Messi than a pure traditional winger. There's no questions of GOATs or no GOATs, but a simple argument on one's playing style. Unless you are telling me that there are no goal scoring wing forwards of top quality available, there shouldn't be much of an argument in this. I am aware that @harms has always preferred Dzajic and if it's a personal thing it's completely fine, but that partnership seems off to me. And not to an extent where it's not fixable given the draft pool. I mean, I'm not asking one to compromise on quality for style of play (e.g. Stoichkov would be a tactically better fit despite being inferior to Dzajic individually and I'm usually likely to prefer tactical fits over quality a lot of times) but I'm sure one can find top top quality options with a more suitable skillset to perform in an attack with Messi.
Having said that you can probably not find a better option than Dzajic on that left wing with Van Basten as the target, so it's a Catch 22 situation. Given Messi is the man of this team one would work to make the team as perfect for him than someone else on the team, but that's not my decision to make.
It's great to see great players but it's not great to see them because we all know they are great: Chester Style? I'm joking
Knowing they're great doesn't make it less great to watch 'em.
But greatness is pretty much a basic requirement for the job in an all-time draft, so pointing out (through YouTube clips) that a player is great - is, considered as a rhetorical device, not...great.
I don't think anyone suffers more or less for that proven principle. In one of the other threads somoene didn't approve of Matthaus in a team with Maradona on the pitch because they thought he was the main man at Inter. That seemed far far more ridiculous given how Lothar was actually at his best as a pure box to box, not an attacking player and his and Maradona's role has very little to do with each other. Will he stop running and not make his traditional late run when Diego has the ball? Of course he will. But anyway, it happens with everyone. anto ripped apart a team that had Passarella and Roberto Carlos next to each other, if you apply the "theyre great, they'd obviously learn a brand new tactic that will make them awesome together", well you are in your right to use it but it makes things really dull.
Also, one is well within their right to ask for something they've seen work in the 'ideal' sense, as to something they haven't and they don't think would work given the skillset. There's a reason Barca paired Messi with the likes of Eto'o, Henry, Villa, Pedro, Neymar and Suarez over the years. Can you see some pattern there? All of them played wide roles including Suarez who drops wide enough times in a game and none is a traditional winger. Let's see you replace Neymar with someone like Giggs. Would it still be two top players on the pitch setting it alight? Sure. Is it natural for either of them? Not. I love experimenting with roles and players based on their skillsets but that doesn't mean we disregard evidence and what we've seen work day in day out for years. It worked for a reason.
I don't agree that this is necessarily the case in every conceivable setup - no.
In one sense, it's about adding strings to your bow - without turning the instrument you're playing on into a monstrosity which clearly wouldn't work. You say it yourself - Dzajic and Van Basten are an excellent combo. Good - now Messi comes on top of that.
A) To what extent would Messi work - generally, basically - in that attack?
B) Can you replace Messi in that attack with a player who would make the whole thing work better?
C) Would you be better off replacing someone else, e.g. Dzajic (with a modern goal scoring wing forward)?
Those are the key questions. You'll go for C) - fair enough. I wouldn't necessarily do that. If you replace Dzajic, that could potentially make Van Basten less of an asset. A modern goal scoring wing forward would be much less likely to hit VB with a first rate cross - to make an obvious example.
But - of course - the bit in bold is true because my answer to A) would be "probably very well". If your answer is "probably not very well", the basic premise is gone.
Well yeah, I don't think it would work 'very well'. Different styles of play, different approaches to the game and they don't match for me. I don't even get what you mean by "messi on top of that". You can't just take a top combination and randomly put Messi on top of that (or any other GOAT - Maradona, Cruyff, whoever) and think it will improve. I completely disagree with that. That combo has to tactically fit with Messi as well, to make it better than it was.
Hardly surprising, given that the type is practically extinct. And you obviously wouldn't randomly insert a traditional winger in the sort of system(s) Barca have used since Messi reached GOAT level.
Of course it worked - for them, and him. We wouldn't be talking about Messi at the moment if it didn't.
This is about combining players from different eras - who played in wildly different tactical setups and formations: What worked best for Maradona? Van Basten? Not to mention Di Stefano - or Meazza.
I'm not playing the "they're great, so they'd be great together" card - I never have, and I consider it a ridiculous argument. You look at the player, his particular traits - and then you decide whether he would work with A, B and C in system X. It's not more complicated than that - or rather it is somewhat complicated, and certainly more complicated than to simply determine whether what he's supposed to do here - in this fantasy match - is directly comparable to what he did historically.
Nice strawman. You completely disagree with a claim never made - an insane claim at that: "You can randomly throw Messi in anywhere, and he'd improve the combo."
Look, this is getting tedious. We obviously disagree rather fundamentally on how well this thing would work in the first place, so let's just leave it at that.
I saw that you voted for a team that had C. Ronaldo - van Basten - Messi as their front three with Platini as a n.10 - you think that would've worked better? With Ronaldo averaging 6-7 shots per game and providing very little creativity? While Platini is much more demanding on the ball than Dzajic, for example, and he and Messi are going to share very similar positions on the pitch