I absolutely love this argument. If N. Santos is going to cross the central line I'm going to argue that Figueroa is facing Messi and van Basten together. If Ronaldo will beat Cannavaro (and, let's face it, even the peak Ronaldo was stopped by a lesser defenders) he'll still have Zito and Chumpitaz in front/near him. You're not playing United Ronaldo, you're playing ruthless, physically incredible goalscoring machine whose play is actually quite limited, he doesn't have the trickery of Henry (inferior player though) anymore
The Double Draft - QF: harms vs Enigma
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Uh - no.
I don't think that those comparisons are leading us to a competent discussion, but if you're going to compare them, you have to
1. Compare Maldini and Bergomi and not Maldini and N. Santos, as those are the fullbacks that they are facing
2. Include a little detail that Dzajic is one of the greatest dribblers of all time, for example, which can't be said about Nedved (he has other strengths like his enormous work-rate for a star player, for example)
Same goes for all your other comparisons - I know that you're just answering to Chester here but you're oversimplify things to the point where the argument doesn't hold any weight
If N. Santos is crossing the central line I'll have 3 at the back
Figueroa---Schulz--Bergomi
Bergomi would tuck in as I've explained in the op and I'll have cover in defence. That's why I've noted several times that Bergomi is playing balanced role.
-------------Suarez-----
----Ronaldo----------
------------Pele------Nedved
Santos-----------------------
--------Xavi-----Tigana------
--Figueroa--Schulz--Bergomi---
Something like this when Santos crosses the halfway line.
As I've said I have 4 in transition on counter - Pele, Ronaldo, Nedved, Suarez.
You are playing 2006 Cannavaro right? If so he's bound to get burned on counter by peak Ronaldo.
And Ronaldo at Real lacks trickery?
Nilton Santos against France in 1958.
Compilation of defensive and skill on the ball.
He's often compared to Maldini in terms of defensive contribution over the years.
For me it's personal preference again - both are one of the best left backs all time.
And Ronaldo at Real lacks trickery?
He averages 1,44 successful dribbles per game. Yes, I would say that makes him not a very good dribbler (Messi for comparison). Plus he wastes a ridiculous amount of shots
A defender who literally haven't put a foot wrong in the biggest tournament of his life (captaining his side to the eventual win and the Ballon D'Or) is going to be definitely burned? By the guy who doesn't even dribble anymore?
What you said was that it's a matter of preference whether Maldini or Santos is better defensively – not whether M or S is the better left back.
The latter is a matter of preference, I'd agree with that – depends entirely on your overall setup, etc. The former is different. If you think it's an open question who is the better defender, I'm pretty sure you find yourself in a small minority.
erm he tries 1 shot more than Messi on average? Is that ridiculous amount of shots?
He averages 1,44 successful dribbles per game. Yes, I would say that makes him not a very good dribbler (Messi for comparison). Plus he wastes a ridiculous amount of shots
Ronaldo at his peak is not a very good dribbler? Let's agree to disagree there then
Nilton Santos was better defensively than offensively. He played as a central defender like Maldini for large part of his career. Him and Djalma Santos were rock solid defensively, with Nilton being the more adventurous one, but with Garrincha on the other flank that made perfect sense and balance.
Either way as harms mentioned it is a bit of a moot point, because in reality we have to compare Maldini and Bergomi defensively as they are on the opposing flank and against Nedved/Dzajic.
And is he considered one of the best central defenders ever? Because Maldini kinda is, even though he spent most of his career on the left (and I definitely prefer him there).
He also have a significantly less shot accuracy - mainly because he often shoots from not very realistic positions - and he doesn't have the alternative in making a killer pass or to dribble like Messi does, he is, sadly (I adored his 06/07 version), a very one-dimensional player now. I don't think that anyone here would disagree with me when I'll say that Ronaldo is the most selfish player in the world at the moment.
This debate is a bit tiresome, as we seem to be discussing on different pages all the time.
I haven't questioned Nilton Santos' general credentials as a defender – I merely commented on your claim that it's a matter of preference whether him or Maldini is the better defender.
Your opponent could have very plausibly fielded Maldini as a CB in this match without anyone raising an eyebrow. Can you say the same for Santos? That's what we're talking about – overall defensive capability, call it what you will. If you think the pair of them are on the same level in that respect, you're not in line with what I'd call common consensus.
But I'm done debating this, it's a moot enough point.
Ronaldo is off his peak now. The version I'd probably most like of him is 11-13 I think that was at his best.
I think we're getting out of topic. I mentioned playing at CB because he was more solid defensively than offensively which is usually thought due to his overlapping runs. He was compared to Maldini in terms of LB style hence I began the argument - both right footed left backs that used to play as a CB and were more solid defensively than offensively, either way neither is playing as CB so I'll put it to rest.
see above.
this is a good one as a compilation of his dribbling skills during the time I mentioned. You can see him often dribbling through 3-4 players and much less selfish than Ronaldo of today.
Okay - sadly, squawka doesn't have stats prior to 2012/13, but it's still in your defined peak,
By the way, Ronaldo scored only 1 header more than Messi at his peak right wing season (6 vs 5)
By the way, if Cannavaro is owned by Ronaldo because Henry was toying with him and Nesta in the Euro final of 2000, I would say that I have the same claim with Matthews vs Nilton Santos. I don't think that Messi is more different to Matthews than Henry to Madrid's Ronaldo tbf
Okay - sadly, squawka doesn't have stats prior to 2012/13, but it's still in your defined peak,
By the way, Ronaldo scored only 1 header more than Messi at his peak right wing season (6 vs 5)
Use this one:
http://www.ronaldovsmessi.net/alltime/
Ronaldo has scored 83 headers in his career or roughly 16.6% of his total goals.
Messi 21 headers or roughly 4.2%
Matthews went past him twice, wouldn't call it ownage, he covered his spot in the other occasions and knocked the ball off him on couple.
and a fun fact
Yeah, what was I thinking. Oh, probably that the game ended 4:2, 41 year old Matthews created three goals from the right and Taylor's shot after one of his crosses also hit the bar.
I don't see how is it relevant tho? Matthews is an old school right winger while Messi is completely different kettle of fish. There is a lot of videos on the net of fat Ronaldo cutting past Maldini.
That was my point actually - Henry and Ronaldo also aren't similar, so you shouldn't use it as an argument like I shouldn't use this one.
btw, happening just now
(his hair looks awful though)Sorry Enigma, but watching Messi now.. what on earth was I thinking. Feel like changing my vote, but won't out of respect 
Well, that's a bad reason!Sorry Enigma, but watching Messi now.. what on earth was I thinking. Feel like changing my vote, but won't out of respect
I feel like quoting the Godfather nowHaha, I raise Messi with Ronaldo and Pele mateSorry Enigma, but watching Messi now.. what on earth was I thinking. Feel like changing my vote, but won't out of respect
And Ronaldo was injured yesterday
van BastenHaha, I raise Messi with Ronaldo and Pele mate
And Ronaldo was injured yesterday
But yeah, the comparison should be between Pele and Messi - the reason why I compare him to Ronaldo is because they are in similar (although mirrored) positions and the difference in their game, quality-wise and stylistically, is very important to my tactical approach and completely changes the in-game balance
Maybe someone will comment on their vote? There are 17 votes already but the thread consists mostly of our boring arguments with Enigma
I nice piece for Xavi for anyone who is interested:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/may/31/xavi-barcelona-la-liga-sid-lowe
Some hand picked quotes:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/may/31/xavi-barcelona-la-liga-sid-lowe
Some hand picked quotes:
As expected close game. 2 new videos
I can't see a decisive advantage on either side. Both teams are very similar in their routes to goal and areas of relative strength and weakness. With their dynamism and reading of the game, I reckon Chumpitaz and Cannavaro would be two of the better defenders in the draft in dealing with Pele and Suarez. Given the potential overloads on both flanks for both teams, someone like Xavi can become critical in threading a pass in behind the full-back. Yet at the same time these are four of the greatest full-backs of all time so it's not exactly a cast-iron certain route to goal.
In a close game like this even a free kick can decide a lucky winner (especially with world class dribblers like Messi, Dzajic, Masopust and van Basten lurking in front of the box).
I have right-footed Bonhof who can shoot from a distance with insane power and accuracy
Ray Clemence was so afraid of the power of Bonhof's cannonball that he infamously ducked the shot (Bonhof scored 2 free kicks against him in a month, for Germany and Borussia M)
Messi, who suddenly discovered yet another ability in him and started to score free-kicks for fun
And also Dzajic, who can alternate with Messi (start at 5:11)
I have right-footed Bonhof who can shoot from a distance with insane power and accuracy
Ray Clemence was so afraid of the power of Bonhof's cannonball that he infamously ducked the shot (Bonhof scored 2 free kicks against him in a month, for Germany and Borussia M)
Messi, who suddenly discovered yet another ability in him and started to score free-kicks for fun
And also Dzajic, who can alternate with Messi (start at 5:11)
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And don't forget that there is a player on the pitch who can always create a goal from absolutely nothing (which he is arguably the greatest ever in along with Maradona)
Probably won't be much available in the run in, so here goes some final thoughts.
- Tigana and Nilton Santos would most likely work hard to cover for Messi on the flank and cutting in. Both are very ahtletic and rock solid in defence and are good match for Messi in terms of having the qualities to minimize his impact.
- Ronaldo on the counter will have some free space to utilize with Cafu coming in.
- We have Xavi who is the best passer on the park able to slice defences wide open.
- Figueroa who is also the best CB on the park.
- Not many thing has been said about Pele but probably the best player ever along with Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer and of course Messi. However what Pele has on Messi is that he has done it on all levels including international and was absolute vital in their 2 WC runs. Big game player.
- Pele most likely will have some free space in the middle doe to Bonhof and Masopust providing wide cover which IMO is one decisive factor as Zito alone won't stop him.
- Aerial advantage in the box, depending on whoever thinks it is important or not.
I also think we have slight advantage in midfield as already noted - Xavi, Tigana and Nedved have more creativity than their counterparts and we have the best passer on the pitch.
And of course a bit more goals in our side. Messi and Van Basten are quality of course, but Pele and Ronaldo can match their creativity and goal scoring attributes with Suarez added into the mix who is a 60 goal per season striker.
And of course a bit more goals in our side. Messi and Van Basten are quality of course, but Pele and Ronaldo can match their creativity and goal scoring attributes with Suarez added into the mix who is a 60 goal per season striker.
Well, feck. Cheers @MJJ
My favorite vote is still We'veGotDeleAlli who voted and get banned a few hours later
Penalties? @Edgar Allan Pillow @Enigma_87
Penalties? @Edgar Allan Pillow @Enigma_87
Time for the penalties. But annoyed I forgot to vote now but oh well.