The Criteria Draft - The Drafts

Chesterlestreet said:
If there is a difference, it is this: Sheva was born in present-day Ukraine and played his football for Ukraine. Andrei K. was born in present-day Ukraine and played his football for Russia (and the old Soviet Union, before that).

Now, in terms of where they were born and the status of these areas - today - there is clearly a difference. But whether this difference should, er, make a difference TO US, in this draft, is another matter.
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Ah i see so Sheva was born in what would of been Ukraine anyway and played for Ukraine while Kanchelskis was born in what would of been Ukraine but played for Russia.
 
BigDunc9 said:
Ah i see so Sheva was born in what would of been Ukraine anyway and played for Ukraine while Kanchelskis was born in what would of been Ukraine but played for Russia.
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Yes - I suppose you could put it like that. As crappy says - the country of Russia certainly is not Andrei's country of birth, that much is obvious.
 
crappycraperson said:
It is not the same AT ALL.

Sammer's place of birth was part of the country he went on to represent. For Andrei, Ukraine was not part of Russia who he represented.

In the context of current time, he was born in Ukraine yet played for Russia. It is almost the same as Diego Costa who represented Brazil first and then Spain. Andrei represented his country of birth first and then a country that had nothing to do with his place of birth.
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Quoted for new page.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Yes - I suppose you could put it like that. As crappy says - the country of Russia certainly is not Andrei's country of birth, that much is obvious.
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But then it's really stupid to exclude Davids from that criteria.
 
Balu said:
But then it's really stupid to exclude Davids from that criteria.
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I certainly don't vehemently disagree with that. It's debatable, no doubt. Technically, though, he was born in the country he went on to play for. Unlike Andrei. Sheva's case is different from both the others again, technically.
 
Right, I'm picking Emerson.

emersonnew21.jpg
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I certainly don't vehemently disagree with that. It's debatable, no doubt. Technically, though, he was born in the country he went on to play for. Unlike Andrei. Sheva's case is different from both the others again, technically.
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But he WAS born in a country that was independent from a footballing perspective.

I'm gonna stop now
 
crappycraperson said:
It is not the same AT ALL.

Sammer's place of birth was part of the country he went on to represent. For Andrei, Ukraine was not part of Russia who he represented.

In the context of current time, he was born in Ukraine yet played for Russia. It is almost the same as Diego Costa who represented Brazil first and then Spain. Andrei represented his country of birth first and then a country that had nothing to do with his place of birth.
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Andrei's place of birth was part of country he went on to represent first when he represented USSR.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I certainly don't vehemently disagree with that. It's debatable, no doubt. Technically, though, he was born in the country he went on to play for. Unlike Andrei. Sheva's case is different from both the others again, technically.
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Why? Where's the difference between Suriname becoming independent from the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the Ukraine becoming independent from the Soviet Union? Both were constituent countries at the time those players were born. The only difference I see is that the Soviet Union became Russia again after the formerly repressed countries became indepent while the Netherlands kept the name.
 
So the general opinion is i got bumped over Shevchenko not being eligible for the criteria of playing for another country because Edgar Davids counted for the same criteria and there situation is very similar or am i reading it wrong ?
 
A player who was born in one countrybut represented the national team of another country. The two countries must be independent countries at time of birth.

Sheva was born in the Soviet union and Ukraine was not an independent country at the time. So Ukraine and Russia counts as the same country, as we are judging it by when they were born not how it currently is.
 
crappycraperson said:
It is not the same AT ALL.

Sammer's place of birth was part of the country he went on to represent. For Andrei, Ukraine was not part of Russia who he represented.

In the context of current time, he was born in Ukraine yet played for Russia. It is almost the same as Diego Costa who represented Brazil first and then Spain. Andrei represented his country of birth first and then a country that had nothing to do with his place of birth.
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Makes perfect sense to me.

I'm just getting caught up with this thread...stunned at the normally level-headed MJJ's meltdown! Thanks to @Chesterlestreet for tagging me at the beginning of the draft. Some lovely looking teams shaping up so far. Annah's possibly the one that leaps out at me so far, with top-notch quality in all areas of the pitch, and Nopace's attack of C. Ronaldo/Baggio/Hassler/Rooney is practically ejaculation worthy to me.
 
Balu said:
Why? Where's the difference between Suriname becoming independent from the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the Ukraine becoming independent from the Soviet Union? Both were constituent countries at the time those players were born. The only difference I see is that the Soviet Union became Russia again after the formerly repressed countries became indepent while the Netherlands kept the name.
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It's not quite as simple as that, though. Some of these countries and old territories were repressed, as you say, by the old incarnation of Russia too - before the Soviet era. And the borders were different, etc. The present-day country of Russia isn't comparable to Holland in terms of the relationship with Ukraine and Surinam, respectively - I'd say there's a technical difference there. But what the feck do I know, I'm no expert on the subject.

This becomes even more problematic when we move on to Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, though - the relationship between the "colonial power" and the "liberated state" isn't so easy to define there.
 
BigDunc9 said:
So the general opinion is i got bumped over Shevchenko not being eligible for the criteria of playing for another country because Edgar Davids counted for the same criteria and there situation is very similar or am i reading it wrong ?
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David's was born in what would, in footballing terms, be the equivalent of Wales - a FIFA recognized country. So, he's in a quite different category than Sheva.
 
1. VivaJanuzaj & Crappy - Messi, Sammer, Lahm, Zambrotta, Etoo, Cocu, F. de Boer, Hyypia, Kanchelskis,
2. The Red Viper -Ronaldinho, Henry, Cafu, Kaka, Hierro, Popescu, Effenberg, Hamann, Mata,
3. Annahnomoss - Ronaldo 9, Thuram, Cannavaro, Ribery, Lizarazu, Pirlo, Essien, Petit, Hazard
4. Cutch - Maldini, Savicevic, Zanetti, Kohler, De Rossi, Benarrivo, Camoranesi, Lehmann, Djorkaeff
5. NoPace - Ronaldo 7, R. Baggio, Senna, Schweinsteiger, Thomas Hassler, Rooney, Aldair, T. Silva, Cech
6. Stobzilla / KM - Zidane, Davids, Robben, Irwin, Signori, Ferrara, Van Der Sar, Veron, Pallister
7. FromTheBench/Theon - Romário, Makélélé, Gerrard, Totti, Blanc, Sagnol, Samuel, Cantona, Panucci
8. EDogen - Keane, Scholes, Weah, Evra, Beckham, Bale, Gallas, Raul, Petrescu
9. BigDunc9 - Xavi, Iniesta, Shevchenko, Albertini, F. Couto, Claudio Lopez, Baines, Reus, R. Jones
10. rpitroda - Nedved, Seedorf, Deco, Ferdinand, Luis Enrique, Guardiola, Zabaleta, Kluivert, Overmars
11. BorisDeLeFora - Nesta, Vieira, Matt Le Tissier, Lucio, Lampard, Villa, Ginola, van Bronckhorst, Emerson
12. Chesterlestreet - Stoichkov, Mendieta, Des Walker, Prosinečki, Ibrahimovic, Kahn, Bergkamp, Adams,
13. Paceme - Figo, Rui Costa, Batistuta, Vidic, Del Piero, Cambiasso, Yaya Toure, Abidal,
14. NM / Snow - Redondo, Giggs, Ayala, Ballack, Fabregas, Ljungberg, Buffon, Costacurta,
15. Aldo - Rivaldo, Desailly, Stam, Hagi, Simeone, Van Persie, G. Neville, Mascherano,
16. Edgar Allan pillow - Roberto Carlos, Litmanen, Pepe, Arteta, Gamarra, Gattuso, Di Maria, Cazorla

@Chesterlestreet
 
Anyway - there's only one sensible thing to do here. Leave the decision to @rpitroda - this could easily become a lengthy debate over something which isn't even a matter of history or reality, but a random criterion in a fantasy draft.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
It's not quite as simple as that, though. Some of these countries and old territories were repressed, as you say, by the old incarnation of Russia too - before the Soviet era. And the borders were different, etc. The present-day country of Russia isn't comparable to Holland in terms of the relationship with Ukraine and Surinam, respectively - I'd say there's a technical difference there. But what the feck do I know, I'm no expert on the subject.

This becomes even more problematic when we move on to Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, though - the relationship between the "colonial power" and the "liberated state" isn't so easy to define there.
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Yeah, I agree. Which kinda makes the rule stated in the op that countries had to be independent at the time of birth so important. It draws a clear line that is easy to understand. Well, trippy needs to make a call here, poor guy, this really is a fecking difficult draft to run. (Oh and if Suriname really had an official FIFA nationalteam at the time of Davids' birth, it actually should be treated similar to for example Wales).
 
Balu said:
Yeah, I agree. Which kinda makes the rule stated in the op that countries had to be independent at the time of birth so important. It draws a clear line that is easy to understand. Well, trippy needs to make a call here, poor guy, this really is a fecking difficult draft to run. (Oh and if Suriname really had an official FIFA nationalteam at the time of Davids' birth, it actually should be treated similar to for example Wales).
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Yes - that seems clear to me too. At least one thing which is - more or less - clear!
 
A player who was born in one countrybut represented the national team of another country. The two countries must be independent countries at time of birth.
 
rpitroda said:
What am I meant to be deciding? Someone give me a summary.
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First and foremost: Davids. He should be eligible in the "born in another country" category for the same reason that Rob Jones is eligible. FIFA recognized country.

Then people have been discussing the general "born in another country...independent at the time..." thing.
 
1. VivaJanuzaj & Crappy - Messi, Sammer, Lahm, Zambrotta, Etoo, Cocu, F. de Boer, Hyypia, Kanchelskis,
2. The Red Viper -Ronaldinho, Henry, Cafu, Kaka, Hierro, Popescu, Effenberg, Hamann, Mata,
3. Annahnomoss - Ronaldo 9, Thuram, Cannavaro, Ribery, Lizarazu, Pirlo, Essien, Petit, Hazard
4. Cutch - Maldini, Savicevic, Zanetti, Kohler, De Rossi, Benarrivo, Camoranesi, Lehmann, Djorkaeff
5. NoPace - Ronaldo 7, R. Baggio, Senna, Schweinsteiger, Thomas Hassler, Rooney, Aldair, T. Silva, Cech
6. Stobzilla / KM - Zidane, Davids, Robben, Irwin, Signori, Ferrara, Van Der Sar, Veron, Pallister
7. FromTheBench/Theon - Romário, Makélélé, Gerrard, Totti, Blanc, Sagnol, Samuel, Cantona, Panucci
8. EDogen - Keane, Scholes, Weah, Evra, Beckham, Bale, Gallas, Raul, Petrescu
9. BigDunc9 - Xavi, Iniesta, Shevchenko, Albertini, F. Couto, Claudio Lopez, Baines, Reus, R. Jones
10. rpitroda - Nedved, Seedorf, Deco, Ferdinand, Luis Enrique, Guardiola, Zabaleta, Kluivert, Overmars
11. BorisDeLeFora - Nesta, Vieira, Matt Le Tissier, Lucio, Lampard, Villa, Ginola, van Bronckhorst, Emerson
12. Chesterlestreet - Stoichkov, Mendieta, Des Walker, Prosinečki, Ibrahimovic, Kahn, Bergkamp, Adams, Pessotto
13. Paceme - Figo, Rui Costa, Batistuta, Vidic, Del Piero, Cambiasso, Yaya Toure, Abidal,
14. NM / Snow - Redondo, Giggs, Ayala, Ballack, Fabregas, Ljungberg, Buffon, Costacurta,
15. Aldo - Rivaldo, Desailly, Stam, Hagi, Simeone, Van Persie, G. Neville, Mascherano,
16. Edgar Allan pillow - Roberto Carlos, Litmanen, Pepe, Arteta, Gamarra, Gattuso, Di Maria, Cazorla

@paceme
 
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