Jorjiniho and Rodri couldn’t be better examples of what I was saying.
The Casemiro/Mount/Bruno midfield
- Thread starter Malone_Post
- Start date
Really left him out on an island
Think a big missing piece was the lack of sweeping from Onana. He stayed in his box for the most part, surprisingly. If he's pushing forward as we know he can, then the rest of the team moves forward too and there are much smaller gaps. Obviously there were other positional issues but I think Onana pushing forward is a necessity to make the two #8s work. The defenders still need to learn how to play with Onana like that, so different from what they were used to with DDG. Hope to see much better discipline from everyone or it won't work.
You are right man, forget these guys that keep analysing blindly.
Mount and Bruno will never work, none of them are good in possession or defensively aware. In addition Mount offers nothing going forward.
To be honest mate, Mount gives me Cleverley's vibe. I don't see any real quality apart from running around and similar to Mount, Cleverley had a decent season until that injury.
Additionally, Casemiro's legs are gone. It was evidence towards the tail end of last season.
The biggest issue is relying on Case to play behind two 10's. Having a man past his prime and slowing down isolated in that midfield is suicidal. It looks as though we were trying to fill that gap next to Case by pushing Shaw into the midfield to create a box in possession, the trouble with that is that he looked completely out of his depth there. That mixed with our forward 5 players all losing the ball as often as we did compounded our issues. Everything that could go wrong did and its worrying that the issues weren't remedied mid game. I'm hoping that the players understood that they were outplayed at every level and can sharpen up in time because if we play like that against Spurs it will be a mauling.
That pitch invader was faster than Casemiro
I'd say there are plenty of players out there who, despite being worse players all-round, are a lot better suited to the role Casemiro was being asked to play yesterday than he is.
One of the reasons Casemiro was such a difference for us last year was that he brought a lot of quality on the ball as well as being solid defensively as part of a double-pivot. In this system that's not as much of a bonus as we're already playing two creative midfielders. At the same time, if we're going to persist with having two creative midfielders pushing up high and one sitting, it's important our defensive midfielder can cover ground and can't easily be bypassed, and Casemiro isn't a great fit for that.
City play Rodri, but they also play De Bruyne, and Gundogan (who they replaced with Kovacic). That's three midfield contributors, not one. On top of that they'll sometimes pick another withdrawn player in one of the front positions, and often go with a back 3 so one of the centrebacks can step up....and they have much better players than us. They would not play Rodri on his own and stick the equivalent to Mount and Fernandes ahead of him, because if they did nearly every team would counter punch them with relative ease.
Last season we had Eriksen next to Casemiro and it worked well because we had good qualities in the middle third and no one overloaded with work or ground to cover. Both could play on the turn and pick direct passes to the forwards. Both had positional discipline which enabled Fernandes to play more advanced. Both are more likely to go forwards than sideways which automatically forces opponents back or stretches them. What we needed imo if thats his Ten Hag wants to play, was another midfielder to come in with similar or comparable qualities who allowed us control in midfield, because Fred/Mctominay although they plug gaps and have engines, don't bring our forwards into the game, and Casemiro/Eriksen is not a midfield we can play 50+ times a season or that will work in every scenario.
What we've got instead is Mason Mount, who is more like Fernandes in that he's someone who makes it MORE important you have midfield cover in the team to account for him, not less.
Playing Fernandes and Mount is just completely unworkable for me unless one of them is in the front 3, and in certain games arguably both would need to be in the fromt 3.
You definitely don't have both in midfield unless you want every opponent to break on you with complete ease, and have no effective link between midfield and attack due to most of the midfield constantly being stood in attack.
Ten Hag has lost me completely with this and the only real way out of it I see is if we simply don't see it again after last night, but given he spent £50m on Mount and thought that probably the most ineffective/tactically disastrous debut I've ever seen was a "good performance", somehow I think that's unlikely, unfortunately
Light. Weight.
I think I can see what EtH wants but even if you swapped out Casemiro for prime Makelele I still don't think it would work.
Onana did have a lower line than I expected but I don't think it would have made much of a difference. Sweeping works when balls are played behind the defence. Our issue was the non existent midfield where Wolves were running/dribbling from deep and then opening up the spaces. From memory, I don't remember a lot of balls that were sweep-able and it would have a really high risk situation if Onana was in those areas.
Onana can only push high if we are dominating the ball, pushing them back and not getting cut open. I think he played it fairly conservatively but totally understandably and it 'worked'.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with the set up in theory. Pep has played with Rodri, DeBruyne and B Silva several times. Isn't this in theory the same as Cassemiro, Mount and Bruno? But I get it. We are one game into the season and they didn't play great so heaven for bid we give them time to gel. Gotta love TheCaf... 
I mentioned this in the Mount thread before we signed him. I remember when Pep first started playing De Bruyne and David Silva in midfield together way back, a lot of people thought it would be too attacking and imbalanced but they made it work.I see absolutely nothing wrong with the set up in theory. Pep has played with Rodri, DeBruyne and B Silva several times. Isn't this in theory the same as Cassemiro, Mount and Bruno? But I get it. We are one game into the season and they didn't play great so heaven for bid we give them time to gel. Gotta love TheCaf...
However there's a couple of issues with the comparison, firstly, we're trying to recreate a system with vastly inferior players. So there's that, Bruno-Mount is just nowhere near the level of De Bruyne-Silva.
Secondly, City don't needlessly give the ball away 50 times a game to allow the opposition to hit them on the counter. If we assume City's midfield has been defensively vulnerable at points, the frequency at which teams get a chance to actually exploit that is minimal because they don't turnover possession at an alarming rate like we do. Our ball retention needs to become that of an elite side, and we're miles off technically.
It also doesn't help that Casemiro's legs look to be ageing.
It should be said Pep has recognised importance of bringing more solidity to his midfield at times in his career, I remember in a lot of tough games he used to bring in Keita at Barca and put Iniesta out on the wing. So even Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta wasn't infallible. Del Bosque used to have both Alonso and Busquets in there for Spain.
The balance was way off and both Bruno and Mount need to drop deeper to get on the ball or present inside channel passing options when the ball goes to the fullbacks.
Overall I'm not sold on this new 433 structure but if eth sticks with it which seems likely we'll need much better movement from everyone in forward positions, much greater support for Casemiro, and ideally replace awb with Pavard to have another progressive passer in the backline.
Time will tell but ideally we can get Amrabat over the line in case this expirement fails and we need to revert back to the 4231.
Overall I'm not sold on this new 433 structure but if eth sticks with it which seems likely we'll need much better movement from everyone in forward positions, much greater support for Casemiro, and ideally replace awb with Pavard to have another progressive passer in the backline.
Time will tell but ideally we can get Amrabat over the line in case this expirement fails and we need to revert back to the 4231.
In theory, yes. In actuality City's midfield 3 is better than ours, and on top of that Stones now pushes up regularly to play beside Rodri to make sure they're not caught out when other teams try to hit them on the counter.I see absolutely nothing wrong with the set up in theory. Pep has played with Rodri, DeBruyne and B Silva several times. Isn't this in theory the same as Cassemiro, Mount and Bruno? But I get it. We are one game into the season and they didn't play great so heaven for bid we give them time to gel. Gotta love TheCaf...
On the balance, shouldn’t we give it more time to gel? Yes on paper it looks too attack oriented but I remember seeing Shaw tuck into midfield on Monday so we would be working on something to make it come together.
Also we are after another DM and that’s probably due to the bigger issue - that in addition to / due to not having a backup, Casemiero has looked cumbersome since the last third of last season.
Also we are after another DM and that’s probably due to the bigger issue - that in addition to / due to not having a backup, Casemiero has looked cumbersome since the last third of last season.
I think it's a matter of time. They haven't had many minutes together and it's going to take some training, video sessions, and game time to figure it out. I think we'll see some changes as soon as this weekend. Once Mount understands his role better, I think we'll see either him or Bruno sitting a little deeper than against Wolves. There were game last season where Bruno played in that role and I honestly thought it was some of the best he's played.
Dont understand how professional coaches and managers even allow these things to happen. As if we are relinquishing midfield control on purpose.
It's the Casemiro, Mount, Bruno and Shaw midfield. Possibly Wan Bissaka and Dalot aswell. This midfield can only be functional if the fullbacks play their part in midfield or we replicate what happened at City last season where Stones pushed up into midfield. I said a while ago that a player like Jurrien Timber should be bought if we want to see this midfield function. Unfortunately we couldn't buy him because the stars didn't align and he's ended up at Arsenal where it seems he was going to provide the inverted fullback option before he sadly suffered a bad injury. We need Luke Shaw to step up to the plate and possibly Diogo Dalot aswell. But we also should sign someone like a Amrabat to give us a alternative option in midfield where the double pivot is a real possibility.
Man City last season utilised four CBs in a 4141 shape starting from deep. The two wide CBs were Akanji & Ake with Stones and Dias playing orthodox roles at the heart of the defense with Rodri just ahead of them in a 4-1 build up structure. But as they play their way out of the first third of the pitch, Stones steps forward and forms a two with Rodri in midfield and the wide CBs (Akanji & Ake) come narrow to form a compact 3 man defense alongside Dias. So City have gone from a 4141 shape in deeper build up to a 3241 shape higher up the pitch. And in defensive transition, Stones would retreat back into defense and form a 4 man defense with Akanji and Ake as the wide CBs.
So the question should be about how the fullbacks and possibly the CB can help a midfield become a box shape, which in-turn will provide the balance for the likes of Bruno and Mount. Because at other teams who utilise a similar setup, they do have the players at either fullback or CB to come into midfield to provide balance centrally and also have the capability in possession.
Man City last season utilised four CBs in a 4141 shape starting from deep. The two wide CBs were Akanji & Ake with Stones and Dias playing orthodox roles at the heart of the defense with Rodri just ahead of them in a 4-1 build up structure. But as they play their way out of the first third of the pitch, Stones steps forward and forms a two with Rodri in midfield and the wide CBs (Akanji & Ake) come narrow to form a compact 3 man defense alongside Dias. So City have gone from a 4141 shape in deeper build up to a 3241 shape higher up the pitch. And in defensive transition, Stones would retreat back into defense and form a 4 man defense with Akanji and Ake as the wide CBs.
So the question should be about how the fullbacks and possibly the CB can help a midfield become a box shape, which in-turn will provide the balance for the likes of Bruno and Mount. Because at other teams who utilise a similar setup, they do have the players at either fullback or CB to come into midfield to provide balance centrally and also have the capability in possession.
My issue during the game was it seemed we lacked something basic, as in, basic as movements & coordination, for example, it seemed that Mount was so high up and crowded Rashford & Garnacho, while Antony & Bruno got in each others way sometimes, and Bruno himself was all over the pitch, and also during buildup from the back, it was not clear who was supposed to go up next to Cas and occupy the center to pull more oppo players in, sometimes it was Licha and sometimes it was Shaw, also at times, it was obvious there were no enough movements when Onana had the ball.
The midfield did look lightweight, but it seemed it was much more than a midfield issue and more to structural/tactical issue.
The midfield did look lightweight, but it seemed it was much more than a midfield issue and more to structural/tactical issue.
Case must be fumming after last match
Doesn't help that he seems a player who starts his season a bit slow and would require a while to be in top form.
But this will eventually work imo. Once Case got his form back and Mount/Bruno get used to the new system. To me it seems like the idea is one would stay back a bit while the other ventures forward but they haven't worked out that yet.
We didn't go 3-2-4-1 when attacking, as AWB seems like always high wide on the pitch.
You think as a team we are on that level? Or even he is still at that level?
Problem is, Bruno has never showed he can position himself well playing further back. Sure, he will track back and work hard but that's not going to be enough against good teams. He is an attacking midfielder, and will not suddenly turn into a recycling, ball-possession focused player. I see nothing in Mount to suggest he is either. We should have bought Tonali.Case must be fumming after last match
Doesn't help that he seems a player who starts his season a bit slow and would require a while to be in top form.
But this will eventually work imo. Once Case got his form back and Mount/Bruno get used to the new system. To me it seems like the idea is one would stay back a bit while the other ventures forward but they haven't worked out that yet.
Exactly and the question should be why we faltered in that regard and how we could improve going forward. Shaw was coming in-field to create the box and Wolves were leaving AWB unmarked and used him to trigger the press. So it wasn't just a case of Casemiro, Mount and Bruno in midfield but also Shaw as the inverted fullback coming into midfield and AWB forming a back 3 with Varane and Martinez which is connected to the issues in midfield. But as things transpired, there was confusion among some players as to who was responsible for occupying the space alongside Casemiro, which caused instability in defensive transition for us and hence played into the opponent's hands. That then meant Martinez himself tried plugging the hole and it nearly cost us dear with a red card.
Probably have to wait for more than 1 game before we go full caf crazy. It’ll change and evolve over the course of the season.
This trio clearly didnt work against wolves and certainly wont work away from home against Spurs. We need to reinforce this midfield.
Adding Eriksen to the mix also doesnt help because of his lack of mobility/physicality.
Mount should play as a no 10 or a wide forward and sad to say MCTOMINAY has to come in to play with Casemiro, as we have no one else now Fred has gone.
Adding Eriksen to the mix also doesnt help because of his lack of mobility/physicality.
Mount should play as a no 10 or a wide forward and sad to say MCTOMINAY has to come in to play with Casemiro, as we have no one else now Fred has gone.
Bruno did show in the past he could play well as a central midfielder. Like against Spurs last year for example. He was our brain that day the match was so good I had to watch it twice. But yeah agree we should have bought Tonali instead. However let's trust ETH on this and give it some more time I think.
I said against good teams
I agree, I just have a hard time seeing it work out as we wish it did. And even more frustrating when a rival team with no more pull than us make a much more logical purchase.
Oh yeah fair enough thenI said against good teams
I agree, I just have a hard time seeing it work out as we wish it did. And even more frustrating when a rival team with no more pull than us make a much more logical purchase.
I think Mount is a good player and I also think we have use for him in our squad.
Having said that, him being the first man in, for 55m was a poor decision given our squad make up.
Priority should have been a 6/8 highbrid which we seem to be chasing now. To me we got our priorities wrong
Having said that, him being the first man in, for 55m was a poor decision given our squad make up.
Priority should have been a 6/8 highbrid which we seem to be chasing now. To me we got our priorities wrong
After Monday's performance, I'd expect McTominay to come in along side Casemiro for the Spurs game, with one of Bruno or Mount shunted wide or dropped. EtH won't want us being that open away at Spurs (even if they are the only top 9 team that failed to beat us when we played away last season).
So we need to choose between dropping our 85m or 60m player. Our manager's hand-picked transfers. Make it make sense.
I dont get it. Why is it so hard to be ready for a new season instead of looking like a start of a rebuild? The match against Wolves was horrible in terms of executing a style of play. And the team is not much different from last year (Mount).
When it comes to transfers in and out of the club, very little at United ever makes sense.
I think the idea is that Shaw drifts into midfield, allowing Mount and Bruno to operate further forward. Didn't work thus far though.
While that makes sense, Bruno and Mount are not possession-based ball recycling players. They will more than often lose possession, making us extremely vulnerable for counters down the wings. This tactic may work for City and Arsenal, just do not see it working out for us with the players we have.
None of it really makes sense. We were shite in preseason and we don't seem to have made it work ready for the season. Another few training sessions is unlikely to make a large difference.
It's a poor reflection on coaching and the players if they really didn't understand where they should be.
AWB was decenf last game but we probably need Dalot to start as at least he's comfortable coming inside.
I imagine ETH expected to dominate against Wolves and gave Mount too much freedom to get forward. I saw it as a tactical mistake more so than any individual player's fault.
Mount is capable of playing deeper and closing passing lanes, he was just far too gung-ho which meant we lost control of the midfield, and he didn't get on the ball enough.
Eriksen is hardly an astute defender nor pressing machine and we played well last season with him and Bruno together. No reason that we should expect to be overrun week in, week out.
It wasn't a good debut, but we all need to give this midfield more time to show what they can do. I'm hopeful it'll work out
Mount is capable of playing deeper and closing passing lanes, he was just far too gung-ho which meant we lost control of the midfield, and he didn't get on the ball enough.
Eriksen is hardly an astute defender nor pressing machine and we played well last season with him and Bruno together. No reason that we should expect to be overrun week in, week out.
It wasn't a good debut, but we all need to give this midfield more time to show what they can do. I'm hopeful it'll work out
So after watching a few analysis video on the Wolves shit show, ETH’s idea is for one of the full backs to step into midfield and help Casemiro(?)
So it’s not a midfield 3, it’s a Casemiro/Mount/Bruno +1 FB midfield.
Let’s hope the second showing against Spurs will be more encouraging.
So it’s not a midfield 3, it’s a Casemiro/Mount/Bruno +1 FB midfield.
Let’s hope the second showing against Spurs will be more encouraging.