Its inevitable in situations where a specific subject is the only thing a voter is emotionally attached to. Abortion would be a big one where a lot of women are driven to vote because abortion rights were in danger (such as what happened in 2022).
The Biden Presidency
- Thread starter Raoul
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Its inevitable in situations where a specific subject is the only thing a voter is emotionally attached to. Abortion would be a big one where a lot of women are driven to vote because abortion rights were in danger (such as what happened in 2022).
I agree in normal elections about normal politics.
The party I voted here in portugal accepted in the last legislature to drop a demand they had about more money for education, especially more counseling, something that for professional and personal reasons is a very big deal for me. Their justification was that it was the only way to approve other measures the majority party in government had related to unemployment support. I was not happy but I understand it's all about the overall picture and I voted for them again in the last election.
I think we all agree supporting genocide is not normal politics, so normal logic goes out the window in my view.
If not voting, or voting for Trump would end the genocide, then I would agree. In a sense, you are gambling that Trump will be better, and that is not a gamble I think will pay off.
By the way, maniak and Eboue, I appreciate your discourse here. You are helping me look at this from different perspectives and I appreciate it.
Why is it never the responsibility of politicians to win a vote? If there's a risk of Trump winning and the Gaza issue being the cause, is it not on the Dems rather than voters to resolve that?
Not being as bad as Trump might be how voters ultimately weigh their vote but it shouldn't be the start and end of that discussion.
I agree. And if Biden doesn't win because of how bad he has mishandled the Israeli attack on the Palestinians, then I don't blame those that didn't vote for Biden, I blame Biden for it. Just like I blame Hillary and the DNC for not beating Trump.
I'm in Florida. Abortion is the big topic item here and a lot of people are going to vote based on this issue. There are a lot of GOP voters here unhappy with DeSantis and his over reaching, but the abortion issue is the number 1 topic.
Considering the make up of the Supreme Court and possibility of more Trump picks IF he were to win, is another issue as well voters here are wrestling with.
If I'm basing my vote around potential dead kids, in the middle east or anywhere, I'm certainly not helping Trump.I mean, the amount of sh*t you're talking makes me hover over a button I've never used before an internet forum, the ignore, because I believe in discourse and debate. But to so willfully lie about this major issue just makes me not want to bother.
President Joe Biden does not have any agency in what is happening at Columbia university. Unless you go down a path (I assume a non-zero number of caf posters woudl) that literally anything done in the name of Gaza can be pinned back at the evil Joe Biden, erego all actions are Joe Biden's fault. Which is stupidity to a T, but hey ho.
What has happened at Columbia University is that a private entity has acted in its private capacity to seek New York police intervention. None of that is a federal matter, none of these bodies have anything to do whatsoever with Joe Biden, the office of the Presidency or the f*cking way the system even works.
So please, have strong opinions, voice them sensibly but don't just make sh*t up.
You can remove potential from that post
The mayor of New York is a Democrat. The governor is a Democrat. The NY state house has a Democrat supermajority. The NY state senate? You guessed it, Democrat supermajority. The president? Democrat.
It's so pathetic to say "aw shucks what can we do it's a private institution". Grow up
Is that how you think the US system works? Because everyone wears a blue tee-shirt, they have some super whatsapp group and the President tells everyone what to do? And you tell me to grow up?
Good lord, the naivity and ignorance on display coupled with vehemence and righteous fury is incredible.
I was going to try and articulate how city, state and federal law enforcement actually functions but why bother.
This is also precisely why the Dems think FL will be in play this year.
Great news, since you think the president of the united states has no power then you don't have to worry about Trump getting elected!
Can't that argument be used by trump supporters though?
Can't they say "why are you so worried about trump banning abortion or deporting immigrants? City and state legislators can still stop it".
It seems to me biden supporters often exaggerate the potential absolute powers of the president if his name is trump and then make it seem like being president is almost a powerless job when the name of that president is biden.
It's a fair point but the fact you are not going to vote validates the idea that a Republican in the White House would do no different to what Biden is doing.
For me that means in this case politically engaged people need to do more than the bare minimum of voting because the formerly effective approach of voting out the administration likely has worse consequences this time.
Unfortunately the essentially two party system in the US makes this difficult as there are significant consequences of not voting, assuming most of the not voting would typically vote Democrat with Republicans voting in their usual numbers.
No, I believe given the GOP response at the University of Texas combined with Trump being on record asking the national f*cking guard to come and counter protestors in the past that there's some hefty evidence that Trump would be worse in this case. Especially given the demographic of the protestors, the city it's in and so forth. Maybe Biden could have called the University President and demanded that she not involve law enforcement. That's about it though. He already said he doesn't support sending in any kind of federal forces.
Abortion is entirely different, and I have to assume you're being deliberately obtuse. The President CAN (if they have other branches) pass a national abortion ban. The President CANNOT pass something preventing private universities from trying to access their buildings. The President CAN influence border policy, and again with other branches pass legislation aimed at alleviating the surge in migrants, particualrly around processing applications. The President CANNOT prevent the NYPD from responding to a call.
On this particular thing (Columbia/NYPD) I really don't see it as anything to do with the office of the Presidency. If it were a Trump presidency, and he sends in actual military to deal with it, then yes, of course the President has culpability.
Sure, all decisions have consequences. A consequence of voting for biden can be sending the democrats the message that they can support genocide and still not lose votes. For me that's just as dangerous.
Your understanding of power and how it is exercised is so childish.
That's why a person needs to do more than just vote if they care seriously about this or any issue.
Trump's words are definitely harsher, but looking at the practical effects, students and teachers being beaten on campus for protesting a genocide, seem to be the same, so... You will not convince me that if biden came on national tv and told all those college directors "hey, these kids have the right to peacefully protest, it's part of american democracy and free speech" that would not have completely change the events on the campus.
But he can't do it, because the students are pointing out the obvious: the democrats are supporting genocide. And the party that has framed themselves and moral and ethical simply can't deal with it. It's a classical example of cognitive dissonance and they're dealing with it very poorly, such as are many of their voters, sad to say.
As for presidential powers, my point was the last paragraph, not specific events or policies.
Trump? Super powers, he can become a dictator and impose his will on everyone.
Biden? Hands tied, poor guy can't do what he wants because of all the checks and balances.
I don't like this double standard.
About 50% of voting age people already don't vote, which is partially down to people not believing the two party system gives them a legit choice to select from. The only three exceptions to this trend were the Bernie juggernaut, fear of a Trump reelection which caused Biden to get a record turnout, and the abortion ruling. Ultimately, if both parties aren't representing a vast majority of people then younger people will continue to not vote.
Absolutely. Although the way american power (republicans or democrats) seem to deal with protests doesn't fill me with much confidence.
Yes, the response to these protests (and those during the Trump admin) is disturbing but there are other actions that a person can take.
It's a private university. Biden can't do anything! He can launch nukes at Latvia but he's as powerless as you and I when it comes to New York City.
It's like he want to lose the election at this point.
Schrodinger POTUS
- Bideneconomics (whichever there are) is thanks to powerful Biden
- University repression. Biden can't do anything about it.
- Israel: Biden is so mad mad mad mad mad with netanyahu but is not powerful enough to stop him. but is powerful enough to bypass congress in arm sales
- Trump will do worse than Biden because he has the power than Biden doesn't have
And so on
Now I have had enough with this bullshit.
You're totally obsessed. You are so focused on one thing that you can't even think straight and see the bigger picture at all. Well, I have news for you: hysterical people do not belong in positions where tough decisions have to be taken and I'm happy it stays that way.
If Hamas are the ones choosing scorched earth policy while in position of strategic defeat, what do you want to happen? The last time that a warring faction chose that path until the end and regardless of how many of their own civilians would die in the process of an inevitable defeat, it was Nazi Germany. I have not any seen a severely diminished belligerent faction choosing scorched earth instead of a surrender in any conflict post-1945. Don't your even dare throwing Ukraine in the discussion because they are not near a state of inevtiable defeat in their own conflict. Even if most governments use nice words to look nice to Palestinian civilians, the truth of the matter is that they all want Hamas to die and with good reason. Netanyahu will be ousted through the legal pathways in Israel, but the war will not stop as the only change that would happen under a new Israeli PM is a change of tactics. Unless and until Hamas are finished or surrender, that's the reality we are in.
And what the hell does all of this even have to do with Joe Biden anyway? What do you expect him to do? Support Netanyahu's enemies to stage a coup? Violate more international laws by doing something as egregious as what Putin does whenever an ally is not following the path that he wants? Unless you want POTUS to become some kind of dictator who show total disregard for international laws, you better think twice about what you want because Trump and the Republicans have been very transparent about how they handle things.
Crack whose skulls? Who has been injured since yesterday? I have seen plenty of examples of false equivalency out there since yesterday, especially from clueless people who compared the situation on US college campus with either repression in Russia, crackdowns in Iran and the police siege of PolyU in Hong Kong in 2019. What happened yesterday is not even remotely close to what happens in those other countries. A number of agents provocateurs, outsiders, the wife of a known terrorist and a number of sheep among the students had no right to be there, especially after what was recorded about some of their actions on the field.
Unless I read stories of students getting shot at with live ammo by police, taken away to never be seen again, being denied a right to an attorney, beaten in detention, sexually abused while in detention, or, worse, killed and dumped somewhere after they were last reported to be under arrest, your take is total BS. I have no respect for you nor for other people holding such bad takes as yours and showing utter disrespect for real people who actually suffered real abuse and human rights violations around the world. Russians, Iranians and Hongkongers who tasted that violence firsthand before they escaped their own versions of hell in recent years would use a lot of swear words at you if you feed them the same crap you have spewed on this forum.
Don't ever dare to lecture anybody about morality here because you have no clue about how the real world even works as you keep pushing for false equivalency.
You're totally obsessed. You are so focused on one thing that you can't even think straight and see the bigger picture at all. Well, I have news for you: hysterical people do not belong in positions where tough decisions have to be taken and I'm happy it stays that way.
If Hamas are the ones choosing scorched earth policy while in position of strategic defeat, what do you want to happen? The last time that a warring faction chose that path until the end and regardless of how many of their own civilians would die in the process of an inevitable defeat, it was Nazi Germany. I have not any seen a severely diminished belligerent faction choosing scorched earth instead of a surrender in any conflict post-1945. Don't your even dare throwing Ukraine in the discussion because they are not near a state of inevtiable defeat in their own conflict. Even if most governments use nice words to look nice to Palestinian civilians, the truth of the matter is that they all want Hamas to die and with good reason. Netanyahu will be ousted through the legal pathways in Israel, but the war will not stop as the only change that would happen under a new Israeli PM is a change of tactics. Unless and until Hamas are finished or surrender, that's the reality we are in.
And what the hell does all of this even have to do with Joe Biden anyway? What do you expect him to do? Support Netanyahu's enemies to stage a coup? Violate more international laws by doing something as egregious as what Putin does whenever an ally is not following the path that he wants? Unless you want POTUS to become some kind of dictator who show total disregard for international laws, you better think twice about what you want because Trump and the Republicans have been very transparent about how they handle things.
Crack whose skulls? Who has been injured since yesterday? I have seen plenty of examples of false equivalency out there since yesterday, especially from clueless people who compared the situation on US college campus with either repression in Russia, crackdowns in Iran and the police siege of PolyU in Hong Kong in 2019. What happened yesterday is not even remotely close to what happens in those other countries. A number of agents provocateurs, outsiders, the wife of a known terrorist and a number of sheep among the students had no right to be there, especially after what was recorded about some of their actions on the field.
Unless I read stories of students getting shot at with live ammo by police, taken away to never be seen again, being denied a right to an attorney, beaten in detention, sexually abused while in detention, or, worse, killed and dumped somewhere after they were last reported to be under arrest, your take is total BS. I have no respect for you nor for other people holding such bad takes as yours and showing utter disrespect for real people who actually suffered real abuse and human rights violations around the world. Russians, Iranians and Hongkongers who tasted that violence firsthand before they escaped their own versions of hell in recent years would use a lot of swear words at you if you feed them the same crap you have spewed on this forum.
Don't ever dare to lecture anybody about morality here because you have no clue about how the real world even works as you keep pushing for false equivalency.
Lot of nonsense that I'm not going to bother with. Just a couple things to respond to.
You're correct that I am "obsessed" and "totally focused on one thing" because that thing is genocide. You may be able hand wave away the deliberate slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians, I have a conscience and morals. I cannot do that.
Netanyahu will not be ousted any time soon, not that it matters since Israeli society and government is committed to these genocidal policies regardless of who the PM is.
You say Biden could coup Netanyahu or continue what he is currently doing. How about he does something in between? The bare minimum should be cut off arms shipments and not exercise veto in the UN to protect Israel.
Don't talk about international laws in defense of Biden. As it happens the United States is bound by international treaty to prevent genocide when it occurs.
There's plenty of video out there of police brutality to protestors. Some has even been posted in the thread. If you refuse to see that's on you.
The claim that a terrorists wife (???) was at the encampment was blatant propaganda and has been deleted by the person who posted it.
At the absolute bare minimum I'd expect him to be honest and stop lying. Stop repeating IDF lies the moment they publish them. He's done that several times, claimed to have seen pictures, intel or other evidence yet later it comes out he hadn't seen anything at all, and everything he defended was absolute lies.
I'd expect him to stop supplying weapons and sending money to Israel and I would expect him to publicly come out and do the right thing and say Israel have gone way too far and it needs to stop. I'd also expect him to stop using the Veto in votes and use his immense international pressure to get this shit stopped once and for all.
I'd expect our PM Sunak to do exactly the same but neither are and it's disgusting. Although, neither is Trump or our opposition leader Starmer either. But they are not in charge, Biden and Sunak are and they are acting immorally, disingenuously and illegally.
Yeah, agreed. It's a really odd question to ask what Biden is expected to do when he has done pretty much nothing of note in the first place to pressure Israel.
If this is a matter of transparency that bothers anyone, Biden can also come out and say some or all of the following things:
- I'm in the process of restraining military aid to Israel by sending defensive weapons (radar, anti-missile countermeasures, etc.) only, but that doesn't get rid of the offensive weapons that Israel already has had for years or even produces domestically.
- Data given from Israel contain their share of falsehoods, but so is data given by Hamas. Short of sending my own people on the ground to have a clearer idea about numbers and facts, who can give me more accurate reports? Please stand up.
- Israel are doing a lot of things wrong in their approach to this conflict, but there are a number of Middle Eastern governments who want Hamas to be defeated no matter what and who are enabling Netanyahu to get the (dirty) job done.
- The rest of the Middle East will do absolutely next to nothing for Palestinians while I'm making efforts to get more aid into Gaza.
- For as long as Hamas still thrives, I have seen nothing to suggest that a Palestinian statehood would improve the situation as there is still an official state of civil war between Hamas and the PA. That part is still unresolved as a matter of Palestinian affairs and a major obstacle to statehood at this moment in time.
- My position also has to consider what will come beyond Netanyahu's time in power. Ditching an ally on a whim is bad geopolitics. Please ask some of Russia's longstanding allies how they feel after they saw Russia abandoning Armenia completely in the midst of their own local conflict.
How would that go then? He could throw a lot of people under the bus, but that definitely would not make the current situation any less inflammable.
Your argument is that things wouldn't be that much different if biden took all the right steps. Even if that's true, at least it would show his potential voters his heart was in the right place.
But if you set aside all the hypotheticals, the reality is very clear: joe biden has done everything he can to support israel's genocide. He provided weapons. He provided money. He provided diplomatic support. He didn't criticize israel in public. He hasn't threatened to withdraw support. These are the facts, so why labor on ifs and buts when you have the facts in front of your eyes. Biden is the bad guy here and he's making it very hard for people to want to vote for him.
For one thing he could stop smearing Jewish people and others engaged in peaceful protest:
That's the least I would expect from someone in a leadership position who wants to be taken seriously.
Many.
Sort of acceptable
When Israel explicitly forbids by law any foreign reporting, and kill gazans journalists. He would need to ask Israel to stand up to reinstate free press and not coerce it
Whataboutism much?
If you consider next to nothing that these arab countries are giving refuge to 4 million of palestinians (more than palestinians itself), build hospitals, universities and schools among other infrastructure that now are destroyed, then you have a problem. Specially when this problem is created by Israel
Hamas exists since the 80s, this is a problem since the 40s and Israel never had any intention on the two state solution since their prime minister Ben Gurion in his own words. The problem is Israel
Pushing them not to commit genocide or well...not being part of commiting genocide is not ditching an ally. If my friend would be raping a girl, believe me that I will bit the shit out of him, I would call the police and I would testify against him
Russia, another whataboutism much.