Ya fair enough, I lumped you in a bit there, but I think you'd make similar arguments about the danger of Trump, so the rest of it should still apply.
The Biden Presidency
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
Ya fair enough, I lumped you in a bit there, but I think you'd make similar arguments about the danger of Trump, so the rest of it should still apply.
The current argument in the US being "Trump would've done worse" to every bad thing to come out of Dems and Biden isn't really a good argument.
Maybe not but the only other alternative is RFK and that's even worse
We shouldn't protect the dems from criticism just because the others are worse, you can vote for the dems and demand they do better at the same time. Answering every criticism with "Trump would've done worse" doesn't solve anything. It's just a distraction.
Regarding FISA and non warrant wiretapping, I am in complete agreement. Both party’s are wrong on this, full stop. For a country that loves to trumpet “land of the free” and “Constitution!” we sure do love stripping away civil liberties at any chance we get. Just look at the responses to student protests around the country. Red states and blue states, it makes no difference.
I got to say, the amount of moralizing, especially by non US voters, in this thread and all the other US politics threads, is fecking amazing. Not a single one of you has had the honesty or courage to actually address the real world results of your fantasy scenarios. You keep telling us, the actual US voters, that we are supporting genocide, that we love Palestinian babies being killed, and that we should take a moral stance and not vote for Biden. But not a single damn one of you will take the next step and discuss what would happen if all of us in this country who are horrified by our government’s actions in Palestine decide to stay home. There are likely millions of us. Just say you want Trump to be president and that you believe that is what is best for Palestine and the rest of the world, because that is actually what you are advocating. Is Biden perfect? Hell no, he’s not even decent on many issues, but he is the best of two options. That is the real world, and it sucks, but what else is there to do?
I'll talk from my point of view. As a US voter I would never tell anyone who to vote or what they are supporting, I will say voting Biden would weigh heavily on me personally. And criticizing Biden and US foreign policy doesn't mean people want Trump to become president.
I really hate how the Trump era turned US politics into us vs them. In a democracy you are supposed to criticize and demand better, otherwise what's the point of free elections even? Just to not get the worse guy? This is so backwards.
The truth is that these elections is between the worse candidates in recent US history and arguably (might be wrong because I don't know much about more than mid XXth century) from the US history. 2 genocide men face to face, but one is worse in many other aspects. And no, whoever votes for Biden should be qualified as genocide lover but also, whoever doesn't vote for Biden because genocide is a red line, should be guilt tripped and qualify as Trump lover either
I am a very opinionated non US voter and Trump must not win at any cost IMO. I don't criticize him much because is so obvious that is a corrupt, sleazy, pathological liar, self serving, fecking dumb piece of shit and is very dangerous. Is so obvious that I don't take the time because there is no point to criticize it
Now, From Biden and the Democrats I expect more. Not because I believe that they are much better, but because they are the less worse and they are the ones that I want to win because if they lose, Trump wins. So if I expect them to rule, I find fair that they have to be criticized and in check to be the least similar to Trump. And that starts in conversations in grassroots, so people to people like in this forum. And democrats fecked it up with Biden's relections and this has to be called out. And Biden is a fecking genocide (and trump would be too), and this has to be called out
On the genocide part, I don't think that voting for Biden would mean that a person is a genocide lover, because the 2 viable options would be voting for a genocide POTUS so they would be focused on other differences but at the same time I would 100% understand that someone would not vote for Biden because is a genocide and is a line that they don't want to cross. I would probably would be in that camp. Luckly, thank god I don't have to vote for any of these terrible candidates
I understand what you say about being pissed off for US none voters schooling you, but I think the majority is that Biden has a lot to be criticized for, and some red lines that makes some people hate the guy and would not vote them anytime. Also, I believe that the Palestinian issue brings the worse desperation and heated mood of some people (it happens to me here and there) and seeing Biden full on with the genocide and jump from one the Israel thread to the Biden thread might take the worse of someone in a heated moment
What I have seen in Redcafe is usually the opposite: Biden voters claiming that anyone who doesn't vote for Biden supports women dying, immigrants being fed to a meat grinder, etc.
You can vote for whoever you want. The vote police ain't comin'.
On Biden, my view is complicated. I hate that he's running again, I think it's a broken promise, an indictment of the DNC's closed-minded desire for power and potentially a tragedy that will have years of downstream disasters (assuming Trump beats him). He's too old, simply.
I'm parking Gaza, will get back to that.
Otherwise, he's been a good President with almost every metric you can cite. The US economy has outperformed every other economy on Earth, consistently and in the face of the obvious supply-side issues he inherited from the pandemic. Inflation in the US has been lower than its peers, GDP growth has been higher, it has avoided recession, it has added more jobs than expected and there is demonstrable growth in lower-income salaries for the first time in ages. The handling of Ukraine has been excellent, avoided actual catastrophes and his adminstration provided a steady force alognside NATO. The infrastructure bill is a historic, strong piece of legislation that delivers to progressives more than almost any other similar bill of the last 50 years. All of these things are, in my opinion, just factual statements.
This is in spite of a media/political eco-system that has convinced the American voters that the economy is worse today than 4 years ago. People have forgotten where they even were 4 years ago, clearly. It has convinced people that inflation after covid is Joe Biden's fault. It has convinced people that the job market is terrible and far worse than under Trump despite the opposite being true. It is a 24-hour grievance machine, which lies with the explicit strategy of hurting the democrats. Also in spite of a GOP house which is literally insane, has had 20 odd speaker-elections, is run by MTG and largely seems to exist to only prove the fact that the house is broken. And in spite of huge numbers of migrants leaving their countries because of conditions there, and showing up in orders of magnitude more at the souther border. And dealing with the fact that the GOP gutted the very organisations designed to help said migrants, and the fact that they're coming into states run by absolutely evil men that want to see them suffer.
Finally, the choice in November couldn't be more clear. I honestly don't care who the alternative is to Trump - what that abomination will do to America if he gets his hands on power again will shock even the most naive of you. He is a malignant tumour on the political system, and getting him elected due to any single issue is just opening the door and then looking surprised when the wolf has eaten your children.
On Gaza, I've said many times I've no idea what Biden is doing, even if it's only his public-facing actions. Sentiment within his own party is clear, as above he HAS to win the election so he should be doing whatever is needed to do so. The only thing I'll add is that we do not share an information space with the administration. I know there are good people who are serving there, and so my occam's razor position after such a long, extended tragedy is that there is more to it than simply what we read on Twitter. I believe due to historic ties and perception, the US and Biden in particular is taking far more of the blame than is due, and that the vast, VAST majority of the blame rests solely on Israel itself. The suffering of the Gazans before and after 10/7 is the result of actions of countless world leaders, not just one. I don't see the Arab world uniting around Gaza, providing aid, shelter, offering to help - I see nothing but blaming trying to blame others. Egypt somehow escapes the focus, despite literally being an obvious solution, that is hurting, not helping. I think people are obsessed with narrative rather than complicated reality, and it's vastly easier to say Genocide Joe than propose actual, workable solutions. And that we've created an entire populace that thinks that way.
Anyway, my 2c as a household that will be voting in the election in November.
I'm parking Gaza, will get back to that.
Otherwise, he's been a good President with almost every metric you can cite. The US economy has outperformed every other economy on Earth, consistently and in the face of the obvious supply-side issues he inherited from the pandemic. Inflation in the US has been lower than its peers, GDP growth has been higher, it has avoided recession, it has added more jobs than expected and there is demonstrable growth in lower-income salaries for the first time in ages. The handling of Ukraine has been excellent, avoided actual catastrophes and his adminstration provided a steady force alognside NATO. The infrastructure bill is a historic, strong piece of legislation that delivers to progressives more than almost any other similar bill of the last 50 years. All of these things are, in my opinion, just factual statements.
This is in spite of a media/political eco-system that has convinced the American voters that the economy is worse today than 4 years ago. People have forgotten where they even were 4 years ago, clearly. It has convinced people that inflation after covid is Joe Biden's fault. It has convinced people that the job market is terrible and far worse than under Trump despite the opposite being true. It is a 24-hour grievance machine, which lies with the explicit strategy of hurting the democrats. Also in spite of a GOP house which is literally insane, has had 20 odd speaker-elections, is run by MTG and largely seems to exist to only prove the fact that the house is broken. And in spite of huge numbers of migrants leaving their countries because of conditions there, and showing up in orders of magnitude more at the souther border. And dealing with the fact that the GOP gutted the very organisations designed to help said migrants, and the fact that they're coming into states run by absolutely evil men that want to see them suffer.
Finally, the choice in November couldn't be more clear. I honestly don't care who the alternative is to Trump - what that abomination will do to America if he gets his hands on power again will shock even the most naive of you. He is a malignant tumour on the political system, and getting him elected due to any single issue is just opening the door and then looking surprised when the wolf has eaten your children.
On Gaza, I've said many times I've no idea what Biden is doing, even if it's only his public-facing actions. Sentiment within his own party is clear, as above he HAS to win the election so he should be doing whatever is needed to do so. The only thing I'll add is that we do not share an information space with the administration. I know there are good people who are serving there, and so my occam's razor position after such a long, extended tragedy is that there is more to it than simply what we read on Twitter. I believe due to historic ties and perception, the US and Biden in particular is taking far more of the blame than is due, and that the vast, VAST majority of the blame rests solely on Israel itself. The suffering of the Gazans before and after 10/7 is the result of actions of countless world leaders, not just one. I don't see the Arab world uniting around Gaza, providing aid, shelter, offering to help - I see nothing but blaming trying to blame others. Egypt somehow escapes the focus, despite literally being an obvious solution, that is hurting, not helping. I think people are obsessed with narrative rather than complicated reality, and it's vastly easier to say Genocide Joe than propose actual, workable solutions. And that we've created an entire populace that thinks that way.
Anyway, my 2c as a household that will be voting in the election in November.
The difference is that you could elect Jesus f*cking Christ himself as President and the Gazan conflict would continue, whereas electing non-insane pro-life officials in our actual country will save women from dying.
It's not a hard calculation. Here's a list of US Presidents, world leaders, Palestinian figures and saints that have solved the issue:
The thing that's so galling for us on the 'other side' of this is that the view of 90% of the CAF is that its US voters' responsbility to solve this problem. As if we can. We cannot.
Abortion is an issue that is tangible, local, personal and can be solved in this election. The middle-east conflict is not.
It is funny that you say: " that the VAST majority of the blame rest solely on Israel itself...."
Only one sentence. And you finish half the parraf explaining the blame that the arabs countries do (or not do). These arab countries are hosting +4 million of Palestinian refugees for decades, more than the population than palestinia itself and which are forbbiden by the appartheid Israel state to return to their ancestral and private owned land while Israel gives citizenship on the spot on jews if they enter to a country were they never had roots and facilitates them land and property (don't know the specifics). So how dare you to first, saying that they the arab countries are not doing enough and second that they need to clean the mess that israel is provoking
And of course, US that created Israel monster from its inception and is the world police has no guilt in the situation. And biden giving them extra military packages so Israel can kill more is not part of the genocide
The workable solutions is that there is UN ceasefire resolution and the UN should enter and stop that for starters. Not financing the genocide. And yes, is genocide Joe. He earned the title
The reason why the tweet I posted in the last page is funny, is because of people's insistence that the things that are happening now, under Biden, are the things that will stop happening when Biden is re-elected.
The Petty Feud Between the NYT and the White House
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/04/25/new-york-times-biden-white-house-00154219
You mean the kind of moralizing that happened when I was told I was ok with women dying, children being locked up in cages and minorities being killed when I said I wouldn't vote for biden?
If people feel they must vote for Biden to prevent a Trump election while also finding his actions re: Israel reprehensible, then what they could do is vote for Biden now in order to prevent a Trump presidency. After the Trump threat is neutralized, they can take political action to ensure that Biden and the relevant people in his administration suffer consequences for their (ostensibly reprehensible) actions.
But what's going to happen is that the 2026 midterms will be "the most important midterms in our lifetime" and this is not the time for any disunity or controversy. Then the 2028 presidential election will be "the most important presidential election in our lifetime" and the new Republican nominee is "more dangerous than Trump, if you think about it" and this is not the time for any disunity or controversy. And then Joe Biden will die and he will be "actually pretty good."
But what's going to happen is that the 2026 midterms will be "the most important midterms in our lifetime" and this is not the time for any disunity or controversy. Then the 2028 presidential election will be "the most important presidential election in our lifetime" and the new Republican nominee is "more dangerous than Trump, if you think about it" and this is not the time for any disunity or controversy. And then Joe Biden will die and he will be "actually pretty good."
There is a difference and you know it. You have said you would not vote for Biden, that he has crossed a red line for you. Fair enough, but by that statement you are proclaiming that not voting is the correct action, the only action that you feel is morally right. The problem is that you stop there, you have never completed the thought experiment of: If others do as I would do then X will happen. We both know what X is, that Trump will be elected, so unless you have the honesty to come out and say "I want Trump to win" then the only options that remain is that you either A) live in a fantasy world or B) want others to carry your water and vote against their conscience so you can live in your ivory tower.
So what's the difference? The difference is that I will acknowledge that Palestine is likely fecked no matter who wins and that the moral red lines will be crossed by miles. However, there is only one side in the 2 sides equation that can possibly be persuaded to alter course on the issue of Palestine, and there is only one side of this equation that is not promising to usher in a Christo-fascist hellsacape if they win.
It sucks that these 2 are the only options we have, but that is the reality. Sadly, I am completely on board with what @Iker Quesadillas is saying above, that is almost exactly what will happen. It feels like we are the frantically trying to plug holes in the bottom of a boat in real time, as more holes keep appearing. Eventually the boat will need to reach land or we will sink, but to reach dry land it needs to stay afloat. We will likely sink, probably in my lifetime, but it's at least worth a try.
Saying that I want trump to win because I wouldn't vote for biden is like me saying you want genocide to happen because you will vote for biden. All options have consequences, it doesn't mean you want them.
And see, the ivory tower thing is just the type of moralizing you're accusing others of. The only option is voting for biden otherwise you're a dreamer or you care more about your self-righteousness than real people. No. Trump is scum and if he dropped dead tomorrow I would open a bottle, but ultimately I must be able to live with my conscience and if I voted for biden I'm not sure I would be able to do so.
Would it be selfish? Maybe, but not more selfish than you saying you're voting for biden because you care more about your community than the kids being blown to pieces as we type these words. Political choices are normally selfish.
In this we can agree, Politics is selfish.
I am going to push back though on your opening statement. What one does or does not "want" is meaningless, what matters is what actually happens. The position of "Trump is evil and should not in power, but I can not in good conscience do the only thing possible to prevent it from happening" is just.... I mean do you not see the absurdity of the position?
Trump can not be President and I do not want Biden to be President, but one of them will be the President. Can we agree that this statement would apply to us both? So it comes down to 2 options: 1) I will do nothing and hope others take up the slack for me or 2) I will chose the less bad option for President. Those are the only two options, right? I mean, if I am missing another option then please tell me.
This right here is exactly how it needs to go, not just in response to Gaza but after every single election.
If there's something you feel needs to changed, be corrected, be done better, engage your representatives, join an NGO and work toward making things better, protest peacefully, donate. Let the government know your views. They can't read your mind (I hope
). To many of us in democracies moan about things and do nothing about it.I don't see the absurdity, because what is stopping me from voting for biden is not something trivial like disagreeing on specific economical or healthcare politics. It's something so evil for me that I just can't do it.
And why do you conclude I want others to take up the slack for me? I understand perfectly well those who don't want to vote for biden and those who do want to vote for him. It's I just can't, in good conscious, do it.
While I agree on this being the correct way, we can not stay silent on what's happening on Gaza and how bad Biden is doing on this front. Waiting till the election is over is too late and too costly. And when people say "but Trump would do worse" it feels exactly like they are trying to silence critics because tbey are scared of Trump.This right here is exactly how it needs to go, not just in response to Gaza but after every single election.
If there's something you feel needs to changed, be corrected, be done better, engage your representatives, join an NGO and work toward making things better, protest peacefully, donate. Let the government know your views. They can't read your mind (I hope
You can vote Biden and still criticize him and protest to make sure you get heard.
Some democrats would say you're a putin stooge.
Yes, it's something that should be done all the time. I was going to mention your post yesterday as well.
I don't think anyone is saying not to criticise Biden for his handling of Gaza. I feel like even here on the caf those who generally support Biden are critical of his actions with respect to the Middle East. He 100% deserves criticism. Nothing wrong with protests either. Get out there, get voices heard. Similar to the voting in the primaries.
BUT.
As you say, come November it's a binary, we'll get Trump or Biden. That's it.
This.
You don't have to say it when the answer to every criticism is that Trump is worse. It's tiresome, it's as if you are talking to a wall.
I'm not really interested in discussing Trump, I know he is worse than Biden and would have been as bad on Gaza. I'm more interested in discussing the current adminstration and how we can fix it. The fear of Trump has killed off all discussions, and honestly, as is always the case in the US, it's minorities being left unheard because white people's life aren't really being affected.
Personally I think the blame order for the current deaths goes to
1. Israel
2. Hamas
-
3. US
If Israel's overreaction was so well anticipated then you have to blame Hamas right up there with Israel for committing a large scale terrorist act that they knew would results in the death of tens of thousands of their own population, innocent civilians that Hamas knew would be sacrificed without their consent and people they were supposed to be protecting. If, instead of spending time, energy and money planning Oct.7, they devoted those resources to building more soft power/lobbying and international relations and Israel responded to that the way they are now, then you could place the US above Hamas but as it stands, I think the US is clearly behind Israel and Hamas on the blame chart. Not that that is saying much as all three parties and others do deserve blame in letting things get to where they are.
Advocating to invest resources on developing gaza and soft power has not work for many years for the palestinians while Israel was doing what they wanted in the west bank
Then, about the blame game: Israel would not be what it is if it would not be for US. Israel most likely would not exist with the West and mostly US
Then Hamas is the consequence of the Israel actions. If a 2 state solution, which not even Ben Gurion wanted but initial necessary evil to put the foot on the grown and then conquer the whole territory, would exist, Hamas would not exist. If Gaza conditions would not be the ones that there are, Hamas would be way weaker and if Israel would not kidnap and kill gazans, including kids, Hamas would be much weaker. And its growth and what happened in oct. 7 is because Netanyahu wanted that to happen at some point
For me is
Without US help -->> Israel would not exist-->> Hamas would not exist -->> the region would be at peace and the current deaths would not happen + Jews in western countries would live a normal life anyway -->> military complex would lose money + US taxpayers would not waste its money
Now, Israel exist, fine with me. Blame for me is
Israel
.
.
US
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Hamas
Why? because with or without Hamas, Israel and US would behave the same. They behaved the same for the last 75 years. Hamas is not even 40 years. And if Hamas would not exist Israel and US would still do the same. Hamas has no presence in the West Bank and the settlement projects had been constant since the decades kidnapping and killing people from the west bank and stealing their land
Also Hamas has 0 decision power. The only ones that can end this are Israel and the world police and Israel promoter/enabler US. Hamas can't stop this in any way, the other 2 can.
Hamas could have prevented this entire thing by not launching a large scale terrorist attack on Oct. 7 though. You can't say without Oct.7 that Israel would be doing what they were the last 6 months.
I agree with some of your framing and I disagree a bit with other parts of it but I expect neither of us is going to change the other's mind so I'll just agree to disagree on the blame hierarchy here.
Obviously we will not be here with October 7th, but Hamas would not be there if Netanyahu had not been promoting Hamas to grow to antagonize israel society and the world against gaza
As you said we would not agree in everything and also. I absolutely see the point on who started this particular point in this conflict on October 7h. but the only ones with decision power in all of this are Israel and US
You could also add if it weren't for the abysmal treatment of Palestenians by Israel for decades they wouldn't have radicalized groups, blaming the victim of decades of injustice isn't going to solve the larger issue imo.
I said it on a more lengthy post during our conversation with @oneniltothearsenal
In other words of course