The 'Awful Squad' Brigade

How would he have been worse?

You haven't addressed any of the other points.

I named a team that could have played last night (which didn't have Valencia at fullback, or Carrick not in midfield) that was obviously better than the one that played.

What I'm looking for is some kind of reason for why Moyes chose the team he did instead, because I can't find one that doesn't come back to the point that he is just plain delusional with regards to his players.

There's no point debating the quality of the squad when Moyes can't even use it correctly. It's like debating buying someone a faster car when you know they don't know how to drive.

I've already said I thought Kagawa should start and explained why I think Cleverley probably deserved a place too (good performance away against Arsenal)

Which just leaves Januzaj. Maybe he should have started too? Less of a case than Kagawa, mind you.

All of which means there were two poor selection decisions. One definite. One debatable. A long way short of the hyperbole in your first post in this thread. What was it? 8 selection decisions he got wrong?
 
Right, just to try and finally summarise my "Rio should never play for the club again" crusade and my belief that Vidic should only have been a squad player this season, I went and checked how many times this season less than two of our three potentially brilliant young CBs were available.

The answer is five times. Only five times this season have we been unable to put out a CB pairing drawn from the three younger players, and only one of those was prior to the last few weeks. And each of those five times Vidic was available to play. So yeah, had we a reserve right back and a decent manager then Rio would never have needed to play this season and Vidic could have been used as sparingly as he should be considering his current state.

We don't though.

There's lots of things that could have been done to improve this squad in the summer. This thread is not about that though. It's about how strong the squad we currently have really is.
 
The squad is very good. I've always said that and my opinion hasn't changed.

A lot of clubs would envy our resources but laugh at the "way" we play.

I'd love to see what a "coach" like Martinez or the other modern coaches could do with these players.

I was always one of those who would defend the squad 100% but that stopped last season and rightly so.

You can not say this team has a great squad with the midfield and full back options we have, its awful and makes everything else impossible.

Why do people insist on criticizing the coaches or his supposed tactical instructions to walk around slowly when there's a very valid criticism of his transfer business.

We all knew what would happen without strengthening.
 
Isn't it possible that it's a poor squad (by United's standards it really is) and Moyes is out of his depth?
 
Nobody will argue that it's a great Utd squad but it's still a lot better than this drivel we're seeing.

Undoubtedly.

I think people go overboard with the criticism for Moyes though. It's becoming apparent it's too big a job for him but the players have been woeful. The OP talks about young talent like Smalling for example, his performance last night was absolutely pathetic. Ferdinand's performance last night likewise. One of the greatest strikers in the world in van Persie gets a chance about 10 yards out and blasts it miles over. None of that is the manager's fault.

I can't believe the amount of cheap, cheap goals given away this season. Ultimately the buck stops with the manager, it always has done, but I don't think talk of a bit of a rebuild being required is too far off the mark.
 
I was always one of those who would defend the squad 100% but that stopped last season and rightly so.

You can not say this team has a great squad with the midfield and full back options we have, its awful and makes everything else impossible.
It's not a great squad. But it's a very good one.

Our fulbacks aren't bad either. A lot of teams would love to have Rafael and Evra as fulbacks. People are just picking on weaknesses of the team and making it sound like everything else doesn't matter because of that. Look at Mourinho's lack of decent strikers. Would it be okay if they finished 6th playing horrific football just because he lacks a few players in a position or two?x




Why do people insist on criticizing the coaches or his supposed tactical instructions to walk around slowly when there's a very valid criticism of his transfer business.
Because coaching IS important? How did Barcelona become the greatest team supposedly in club football? Because he implemeted high quality tactics and at the same time got the best out of his players. Moyes has been pathetic on this count.



We all knew what would happen without strengthening.
That we'd hire an incompetent manager who makes a good squad look rubbish? No, I didn't think that would happen.
 
We don't though.

We did have until about three weeks ago.

Anyway, here's every match this season and the CB pairing we could have played:

Wigan: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Swansea: Smalling + Jones
Chelsea: Smalling + Jones
Liverpool: Smalling + Jones
Crystal Palace: Evans + Vidic
Bayer 04: Smalling + Evans
Man City: Smalling + Evans
Liverpool: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
West Brom: Evans + Jones
Shakhtar: Smalling + Jones
Sunderland: Smalling + Jones
Southampton: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Real Sociedad: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Stoke City: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Norwich: Smalling + Jones
Fulham: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Real Sociedad: Smalling + Jones
Arsenal: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Cardiff: Smalling + Evans
Bayer 04: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Spurs: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Everton: Smalling + Evans
Newcastle: Evans + Jones
Shakhtar: Evans + Jones
Aston Villa: Evans + Jones
Stoke City: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
West Ham: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Hull: Smalling + Evans
Norwich: Smalling + Evans
Spurs: Smalling + Evans
Swansea: Smalling + Evans
Sunderland: Smalling + Evans
Swansea: Smalling + Vidic
Chelsea: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Sunderland: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Cardiff: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Stoke City: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Fulham: Smalling + Vidic
Arsenal: Smalling + Vidic
Crystal Palace: Smalling + Vidic
Olympiacos: Smalling + Vidic

Now, obviously we wouldn't have lined up with that precise pairing every time, Vidic could have started at least a dozen smaller games and Jones would always have played in midfield about half the time, but that's what was available to us. But crucially we've rarely had to play Vidic, and we've never had to play Rio. Does anyone truly believe we wouldn't be having a substantially better season defensively if we'd used the squad like that, rather than in the crap way Moyes has?
 
We don't have a bad squad, but there are a lot of factors that mean those making a claim for it being a bad squad aren't exactly miles from the truth. I believe that the following players all have issues that make the squad seem poor, even if they are not always poor players:

Average Players

Valencia - I've rated him for ages, but ever since his injury he's not what he used to be, the loss of form has to be permanent by now. He's not going to be the player he was.. I still think he should stay at United, but he should rarely start games.
Young - Just not good enough and should have never been at United in the first place.
Cleverley - Is not good enough. To think he was given opportunities over Pogba for example is baffling. He is not even good enough to be considered our 4th or 5th choice central midfielder, IMO. He needs to be moved on to a club more his level, though I can't say I hate the player.
Buttner - Needs to be moved on as well.

Ageing Players

Ferdinand - End of his United career
Vidic - End of his United career
Giggs - End of his United career
Evra - Could be the end of his United career, but we need an experienced head and he is the one who should have an additional year over the others.

Injury-Prone Players

Jones
Evans
Smalling
Rafael

I rate all of these highly, but they need to get over their injury woes to really be the future of our defence. We will still need to invest in a top quality centre back or two, along with promoting Keane.

Debatable Players

Welbeck - Some people say they love Danny, others think he is a donkey that can only fall over. I'm perfectly happy for him to be where he is, though, so long as Moyes plays the squad the right way. He should rarely start games.
Fellaini - Definitely needs more time and a run of games to at least try and prove himself, so can't really make a judgement yet.
Kagawa - Does he have what it takes to make it at United? I think he does, obviously. However, we need to play a different system (the one used against Palace) to include him. However, I don't think he deserves to be first choice over any of the current front four.

We have a massive mix of absolute-top-quality, completely average at best, injury prone, and ageing players who are past their best. Add to that the debatable ones who may or may not be good enough and need to be used more/correctly, it's very difficult to assess what we have even if this side won the title last season. It's very possible Fergie did bow out at the right time.

Personally, I think we need to play the following system whenever possible:

de Gea
Rafael Smalling Jones Evra
Fletcher Carrick
Mata
Rooney Januzaj
van Persie​

Next defender in line is Evans if someone is out, depending on which CB we sign in the Summer (we have to sign at least one). Obviously, Evra's place will also be questionable depending on which LB we sign (we have to sign at least one).

Next midfielder in line is Fellaini, though he would probably start a lot against the more defensive sides to offer more of an attacking threat. However, we should be looking into signing that top quality CM in the Summer (finally). I would be happy going into the season with a new marque CM signing, Carrick, Fletcher, Fellaini, and Powell (with Jones also able to cover in some games).

The next attacking player to start games would be Kagawa. This is so we play the same system! He swaps with anyone in that front four, with Rooney going up front if that player is RvP. I keep saying 'start games' for a reason. We want to play this system whenever possible, but will it always work? No. Moyes' subs always seem to be like-for-like, which rarely changes much. That player will play in the same way, so the defender, while tired, will not have to change what they're doing. Would I bring Kagawa on in a game to change it? Honestly, no. I'd rather bring on Valencia to add proper width in a game that needs changing and to be stretched. This is drifting away from Plan A during the game which Moyes never seems to do. Obviously, Hernandez would be next if two of the aforementioned five cannot play for whatever reason.

Also, when we start Valencia/Young/Cleverley, we don't (or at least rarely) win. I hope the Olympiakos game finally shows Moyes this. Against the Greeks, Moyes chose to be cautious away from home, which Fergie may well have done himself. However, after a win against Palace the game before with the system we've wanted to see all season, the easier change was probably Kagawa > Mata and go at them again. Didn't happen, so we'll never know how it would have turned out.

I've not mentioned Zaha, Nani, Lingard, or Varela. I think Zaha, Nani, and Lingard could/should all stay. Young should be sold, and these guys should be given the chance to pressure Valencia for his place (or be back-up to Rafael over playing CB's there in Varela's case).

I think this is at least a pretty accurate assessment of our squad. Do I think it is a million miles off challenging for trophies again? No. But we do need to sign four or five players of as good as or better quality than what we can offer in the first-11 I posted above (in defence and midfield).
 
We did have until about three weeks ago.

Anyway, here's every match this season and the CB pairing we could have played:

Wigan: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Swansea: Smalling + Jones
Chelsea: Smalling + Jones
Liverpool: Smalling + Jones
Crystal Palace: Evans + Vidic
Bayer 04: Smalling + Evans
Man City: Smalling + Evans
Liverpool: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
West Brom: Evans + Jones
Shakhtar: Smalling + Jones
Sunderland: Smalling + Jones
Southampton: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Real Sociedad: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Stoke City: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Norwich: Smalling + Jones
Fulham: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Real Sociedad: Smalling + Jones
Arsenal: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Cardiff: Smalling + Evans
Bayer 04: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Spurs: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Everton: Smalling + Evans
Newcastle: Evans + Jones
Shakhtar: Evans + Jones
Aston Villa: Evans + Jones
Stoke City: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
West Ham: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Hull: Smalling + Evans
Norwich: Smalling + Evans
Spurs: Smalling + Evans
Swansea: Smalling + Evans
Sunderland: Smalling + Evans
Swansea: Smalling + Vidic
Chelsea: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Sunderland: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Cardiff: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Stoke City: Smalling + Evans (Jones)
Fulham: Smalling + Vidic
Arsenal: Smalling + Vidic
Crystal Palace: Smalling + Vidic
Olympiacos: Smalling + Vidic

Now, obviously we wouldn't have lined up with that precise pairing every time, Vidic could have started at least a dozen smaller games and Jones would always have played in midfield about half the time, but that's what was available to us. But crucially we've rarely had to play Vidic, and we've never had to play Rio. Does anyone truly believe we wouldn't be having a substantially better season defensively if we'd used the squad like that, rather than in the crap way Moyes has?

Why are you ignoring the lack of cover at right back?
 
Fabio was available for most of the season until he was absurdly sold, and yes he's not been great lately, and no he's not pulled up any trees since joining Cardiff. But he's a better right back than Smalling and Valencia even then, and he probably has more experience than either in the position, including at the highest level.
 
Fabio was available for most of the season until he was absurdly sold, and yes he's not been great lately, and no he's not pulled up any trees since joining Cardiff. But he's a better right back than Smalling and Valencia even then, and he probably has more experience than either in the position, including at the highest level.

I'm not sure Fabio is a better right back than Smalling. Never trained on like his brother, who's a much better player but still capable of defensive brain farts. Fabio is vastly over-rated on here IMO, as we're seeing in his performances for Cardiff.
 
I'm not sure Fabio is a better right back than Smalling. Never trained on like his brother, who's a superior player but still capable of defensive brain farts. Fabio is vastly over-rated on here IMO.

How exacly you know this?

Fabio had only one game this season in RB position when he played better than Smalling has ever played there.
 
I'm not sure Fabio is a better right back than Smalling.

Christ, of course he is. Smalling is woeful there. I'd rather we played Varela or perhaps even Keane. Alternatively Jones isn't nearly as bad at full back as some people make out, though he is usually needed elsewhere.
 
Our squad is certainly not good enough to win the league but it's being made to look a whole lot worse than it is.
 
I'm not sure Fabio is a better right back than Smalling. Never trained on like his brother, who's a much better player but still capable of defensive brain farts. Fabio is vastly over-rated on here IMO, as we're seeing in his performances for Cardiff.

Fabio at RB enables us to play Smalling in the middle, which is a better option than Smalling at RB plus Rio in the middle.
 
Our squad is certainly not good enough to win the league but it's being made to look a whole lot worse than it is.

Our squad all have winner's medals, an average of about three each, except Fellaini.
 
There's no way of knowing whether the 3 younger centre halves would be putting on a better show. I'd imagine it can't really by that hard though.

What we would have gained is 6 solid months of invaluable experience which can be used to make decisions with this summer. As it stands, we've been shit AND we're still clueless. In fact, I'd probably argue we have less of an idea about them than last season, where they were at least following an upward curve. Now there is no curve.
 
What we would have gained is 6 solid months of invaluable experience which can be used to make decisions with this summer. As it stands, we've been shit AND we're still clueless. In fact, I'd probably argue we have less of an idea about them than last season, where they were at least following an upward curve. Now there is no curve.

It's particularly brilliant that we've continued to use crap old players who will definitely be leaving in the summer. Great management.
 
You think we could have won the league with the same players minus Fellaini and Moyes this season then?

The league's not much better than it was last year really. If Fergie was still around we'd have been in a title race with Chelsea which we might well have won.
 
You think we could have won the league with the same players minus Fellaini and Moyes this season then?
Yeah but they've obviously wilted under the hot Manchester Sun in the long duration of a few months.
 
Meh, we won the league last season only because Chelsea/City were shit and this year all four (five or six) teams have improved so it is normal that we are in this position. Nobody would have been doing better than Moyes.

Players should get embarrased for letting the manager, the fans and the club down. These performances from them have been pathetic. We should replace every single one of them and get new players for Moyes. Only then we can judge him. It is a good thing that this is exactly what will happen because people who make this decisions (Sir Alex and Sir Bobby) have more brain cells than all 'Caf geniuses' combined.

Remember, when it will be 21, it is David Moyes. Until then you gloryhunters can go and support City or Chelsea.

Cat amongst the pigeons here Revan!

edit: only saw your second post now :lol:
 
The league's not much better than it was last year really. If Fergie was still around we'd have been in a title race with Chelsea which we might well have won.

Fergie knew this squad inside out and knew how to get the very best out of them. Realistically speaking any new manager would have struggled to challenge with the limited options we have, in midfield in particular. I certainly would expect more than what we've seen under Moyes though who seems utterly clueless.
 
Fabio at RB enables us to play Smalling in the middle, which is a better option than Smalling at RB plus Rio in the middle.

No idea how you can be so certain about that. There's every chance Fabio will be a defensive liability at fullback which makes any potential improvement in central defence almost irrelevant. He's getting rings run round him at Cardiff, that's for sure.

For all the limitations of Smalling at fullback, going forwards, he's a very competent defender. Which probably makes up for the downside of playing Rio.

Jones is probably the best RB of the lot but he's never bloody fit (and/or needed as part of our threadbare midfield) so that's neither here nor there.

This is all ifs, buts and maybes anyway. We're discussing how good our squad is. It's blatantly obvious that we lack quality cover at right back. Add in Rafael's return to his injury prone status from seasons past and it's yet another problem that needs fixed. Which doesn't fit with the premise in the OP that Moyes inherited a squad without significant issues.
 
I think people go overboard with the criticism for Moyes though. It's becoming apparent it's too big a job for him but the players have been woeful. The OP talks about young talent like Smalling for example, his performance last night was absolutely pathetic. Ferdinand's performance last night likewise. One of the greatest strikers in the world in van Persie gets a chance about 10 yards out and blasts it miles over. None of that is the manager's fault.

I can't believe the amount of cheap, cheap goals given away this season. Ultimately the buck stops with the manager, it always has done, but I don't think talk of a bit of a rebuild being required is too far off the mark.

You are trying very hard to defend the indefensible. Did we start the season so bad? No, it has gotten worse as the season progressed, that is totally the manager's fault. the fact that there is no cohesion, cheap goals and no confidence is totally up to the manager.
 
For all the limitations of Smalling at fullback, going forwards, he's a very competent defender.

Its not as simple as that though. If your attacking and possession is poor you invite pressure on yourself by giving the ball away consistently, which leads to the opposition attacking more often.

Its the reason Barca have a fairly good defence despite appearing wobbly as hell at times. They simply restrict the number of opportunities you get, and make you worry about their game rather than the other way round.
 
Its not as simple as that though. If your attacking and possession is poor you invite pressure on yourself by giving the ball away consistently, which leads to the opposition attacking more often.

Its the reason Barca have a fairly good defence despite appearing wobbly as hell at times. They simply restrict the number of opportunities you get, and make you worry about their game rather than the other way round.

This is true but our "attacking and possession" has been poor all season. Swapping a full-back won't change that. In reality, whoever gets picked there has to do a lot of defending.
 
I've already said I thought Kagawa should start and explained why I think Cleverley probably deserved a place too (good performance away against Arsenal)

Which just leaves Januzaj. Maybe he should have started too? Less of a case than Kagawa, mind you.

All of which means there were two poor selection decisions. One definite. One debatable. A long way short of the hyperbole in your first post in this thread. What was it? 8 selection decisions he got wrong?

Did Cleverley play well away to Arsenal? He was merely less rubbish than Carrick. You have lowered your standards extraordinarily if you now consider that playing well. Then you have to weigh that up against the consistent and almost countless times he's not played well enough. At most one of him or Carrick should have played, and that's only based on the fact Moyes hasn't picked Fletcher enough for me to know what kind of level he's at....I would still say he's more chance of meeting the standard required than Cleverley, based on the fact it takes a severe level of denial at this point to not 99% know that Cleverley wont.

The same applies to both Young and Valencia...in particular Young, who you can't even say has played well enough at any point in the past. THe same applies to Vidic and Rio both individually and as a pair, to Smalling as a fullback, and there are more thanvalid concerns over Evra's ability to make up the ground required in the role he currently plays as both an attacker and a defender.

That's 8 players who I could look at the team before the game last night and KNOW they wouldn't be up to producing the level of performance required of them. I know this because they haven't done, between all of them, barely a single time all season.

If you want to know why thinking otherwise is what I would consider delusional, look up the meaning of insanity in the dictionary.

I said of those 8 players, at least 5 didn't have to play. Evra did, because he's still the best we have in his position. One of Rio or Vidic did, and, arguably, one of Cleverley or Carrick. The rest, we have players who have performed more adequately this season who could have played instead.

When it's one or two players, you can say maybe the manager had a plan that didn't come off, or is working on something. When it's 8 players, there is no way the blame doesn't come back around on to Moyes. Yes, the players have a responsibility to do better...but its the same players who have consistently had this responsibility, and not lived up to it.

If I trust a friend to do something for me, and they completely feck it up, and then I trust them again, and they feck it up again...I don't then trust them to do it another 50 odd times and somehow not end up being the bigger idiot of the two when on each occasion, they feck it up again.
 
There's really not much more I can say in this thread that wouldn't be repeating myself.

The bottom line for me is that we had identical debates about the teams Fergie picked from an almost identical squad last season. Obviously, the difference in the performances they got out of the teams is chalk and cheese.

When you get two experienced, competent managers repeatedly picking a very similar XI from the same squad the unpopularity of this selection among fans is more likely to be down to fans not appreciating the reasons behind the team selection than cluelessness from the managers.

Moyes fully deserves the stick he is getting for not putting out a motivated team playing consistent and effective tactics. When it comes to picking the best possible team it's very likely his hands are tied by the same flaws in the squad that made Fergie's team selections so unpopular. The fringe players just aren't as good as the fans think they are.
 
There's really not much more I can say in this thread that wouldn't be repeating myself.

The bottom line for me is that we had identical debates about the teams Fergie picked from an almost identical squad last season. Obviously, the difference in the performances they got out of the teams is chalk and cheese.

When you get two experienced, competent managers repeatedly picking a very similar XI from the same squad the unpopularity of this selection among fans is more likely to be down to fans not appreciating the reasons behind the team selection than cluelessness from the managers.

Moyes fully deserves the stick he is getting for not putting out a motivated team playing consistent and effective tactics. When it comes to picking the best possible team it's very likely his hands are tied by the same flaws in the squad that made Fergie's team selections so unpopular. The fringe players just aren't as good as the fans think they are.

But there has to be some visible reason behind the selections. It's football. We all see what happens on the pitch. You don't have to be a managerial genius to work out if a player is playing well or not. Find me a single person for example who thinks Young or Valencia have played well at any point over the past two years.

You're weighing indisputable, consistent and plainly visible evidence, over an extremely long period of time, witnessed and credited by thousands upon thousands of people, against the assumption that two blokes who you've never met must know better, because they "know what they're doing"

THe only POSSIBLE basis for this not to be completely mental, is if the team is achieving an acceptable standard of performance and results in spite of this evidence. It's highly debatable whether they were last season, and this season, it's not debatable at all. They simply aren't.

All that leaves you with is a blind assumption on a manager's supposed superior knowledge, which flies in the face of anything based on reality. You just look like the last insane person still believing the world is flat.
 
This is true but our "attacking and possession" has been poor all season. Swapping a full-back won't change that. In reality, whoever gets picked there has to do a lot of defending.
earlier in the season, we saw a clear difference when Rafael played over Smalling/Jones. then he got affected by injury and the rest of the team. swapping a player can make a lot of difference.