Because I would struggle to remember a single clean sheet when he has started in central defence?
Been involved in some diabolical defensive performances too. Especially in Europe, over the previous two seasons.
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The 'Awful Squad' Brigade
- Thread starter Sarni
- Start date
Because I would struggle to remember a single clean sheet when he has started in central defence?
Been involved in some diabolical defensive performances too. Especially in Europe, over the previous two seasons.
if the squad was the problem, we would have seen things being this bad from the beginning of the season.
however, things seem to have got worse as the season progressed which points to management issues rather than inherent quality ones
however, things seem to have got worse as the season progressed which points to management issues rather than inherent quality ones
The evidence is so overwhelming that the coaching is mostly at fault that you have to imagine even the Moyes supporters know it, and are just making up crap rationalisations out of stubbornness. Maybe a few of them are really that dumb, but most of them can't be.
Jones and Evans were both injured so one of Rio and Vidic had to start. Is Rafael definitely available? Hasn't played since he got concussed.
Also, your claim that Carrick shouldn't start is ridiculous. One of our best players in our last game and an area of our squad with the least quality cover.
We had no choice last night regarding our back four. Rafael didn't make the bench so he was obviously injured. Only other options were Carrick at CB or Valencia at RB. Which really highlights how great this squad is.
It's not a brilliant squad, we've got too much mediocre depth and not enough top class quality, some aging players clearly past their prime and youngsters who haven't come into their own yet.
But, we've been lowering our expectations month after month since the summer. Enough is enough, this squad should not be losing to Olympiakos in such a bad performance and should not be out of the top four. That's the absolute minimum.
But, we've been lowering our expectations month after month since the summer. Enough is enough, this squad should not be losing to Olympiakos in such a bad performance and should not be out of the top four. That's the absolute minimum.
Rafael is cleared from his concussion so could have played. Even if he didn't I'd have moved Smalling inside and had someone else (Valencia) prat around making an awful attempt at being a fullback. Vidic and Rio should never play as a pair, let alone twice in a week. I didn't claim Carrick shouldn't start...for arguments sake I included him as one of the three
...but, he wasn't one of our best players against Palace at all...he wasn't even our best central midfielder against Palace. Some other players played well and for some reason people attributed the credit to Carrick, who did nothing noteworthy at all...and last night he was utterly pathetic and the player most at fault for both goals, which doesn't exactly help his case.
This team could have played:
DDG
Rafael
Smalling
Vidic
Evra
Carrick
Fellaini
Januzaj
Kagawa
RVP
Rooney
Can you argue, without being a liar, that you think that team wouldn't easily do better than the one Moyes picked? The weak links in that team for me are Kagawa's inconsistency, and Carrick and Vidic's sustained terrible form...but I'd play them through lack of alternatives.
Instead, last night we had Valencia, Young, Smalling at fullback, Cleverley...all players who we KNEW wouldn't be capable of producing the level of performance required. It's so consistent there is no question mark about that anymore, apart from to literally insane people.
Squad quality can't and shouldn't be analyzed without factoring in injuries and Moyes. Both reflect the ridiculous change in fortune between last year and now.
Mate, we could have improvised and had Valencia at RB with Smalling shifting to the center in place of Rio. Sir Alex was able to get the best out of Rio last season by rotating and giving him a proper rest. Everyone knows he doesn't have it to start 2 games in 3-4 days any longer. Why did Januzaj not even make the bench? Our next game is 11 days away.
Starting Valencia at RB really would have been a terrible decision.
I can't believe people are now asking for Valencia at RB. We almost always seem to concede a goal from his side of the pitch whenever we move him to RB this season. The back four picked itself last night. Still doesn't excuse it from being unable to pass the ball.
Do you think injuries excuse the different between those two seasons?
We haven't got anywhere near the best out of these players when they've been fit either.
It should never have gotten to the stage of Valencia or Smalling at right back. It's pathetic a club our size can't organise some decent cover at fullback. It wouldn't even take much money.
It was pointed out recently that almost every time he's come on at RB, or been moved there, we've conceded down that side. Criticising a manager for not playing someone who's even less of a right back than the guy you played there seems daft alright. Though it would have allowed people to man about how he picked players out of position when he had Smalling or Rio available.
For me, the one and only clear misuse of our squad last night was not starting Kagawa. He's been good in Europe for us.
The rest are debatable. You could argue we missed Januzaj too.
Mind you, Kagawa played almost half the game and the score was the same (1-0) with and without him*.
*I think. Was drunk watching. It didn't ease the pain.
The rest are debatable. You could argue we missed Januzaj too.
Mind you, Kagawa played almost half the game and the score was the same (1-0) with and without him*.
*I think. Was drunk watching. It didn't ease the pain.
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Worse than starting Rio in the center again in the space of 3 days? I don't think so.
We set up to contain and not attack them all last night. We were simply not interested and that was the reason for the awful performance. I mentioned in the match day thread that there were at least 3 or 4 occasions when Smalling had space to run with the ball on the right and he decided to simply pass it to the defense or the middle. The whole plan for the game was ridiculous to begin with.
Valencia at RB ? Wtf are some of you smoking 
? Did you forget all his previous performances there ?
? Did you forget all his previous performances there ?I'm not excusing Moyes in any way - just that injuries have blighted our confidence and prevented any continuity of development in training and during games. There was a period when Rooney, RvP, and Carrick were out around the same period. Moyes obviously lacks the ability to galvanize the team into playing as a cohesive unit, but his challenge has been doubled by the injuries and poor transfer window.
Moyes has basically exacerbated any problems we had with poor management all round. He appears to have isolated himself from certain players, having got rid of a championship winning coaching staff. Not clever.
His player management of several players has been questionable at best, downright pathetic at worst. Players like Ferdinand have been overplayed early season, left out for months, and now overplayed again. He's played people like Kagawa until they start to hit some form, before subbing them off and leaving them out for a month. I mean, is the man completely fecking dense?
At any one time, every squad in the world will think they can improve in some key areas. We definitely needed that, I don't think anybody would disagree. But Jesus wept, it's like he's doing it on purpose at the moment. The man is an idiot.
His player management of several players has been questionable at best, downright pathetic at worst. Players like Ferdinand have been overplayed early season, left out for months, and now overplayed again. He's played people like Kagawa until they start to hit some form, before subbing them off and leaving them out for a month. I mean, is the man completely fecking dense?
At any one time, every squad in the world will think they can improve in some key areas. We definitely needed that, I don't think anybody would disagree. But Jesus wept, it's like he's doing it on purpose at the moment. The man is an idiot.
That is not far from the truth. However, some of the rotation, in game substitutions and plans have been awful even with those players available. He is an excellent manager and I can understand why the club appointed him but at the moment it is looking like that the job may be too big for him.
First of all, name these diabolical defensive performances when he's started at CB. And second, here's every match he's started at CB this season:
Liverpool H 1-0
Shaktar A 1-1
Everton H 0-1
West Ham H 3-1
Stoke A - 2-0
Hull A 3-2
Swansea H 2-0
Sunderland H 2-1
Cardiff H 2-0
Fulham H 2-2
Arsenal A 0-0
5 clean sheets out of 11, and of the 8 goals we've conceeded in those matches I'd say at least five are the direct fault of another player. Christ, but we make a lot of individual errors these days.
He could easily have not sold (and actually played at some point) our reserve right back. Or if he didn't fancy him in the summer he could easily have signed one. Even one of Buttner's quality would be much better than Smalling or Valencia.
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Kagawa came on with 15 mins or so left and was involved in the one chance we created releasing Young for that cross to RVP and at the end combining well with Rooney with a run through the middle before releasing Evra in acres of space who should have crossed it first time.
He almost played half of the 2nd half.
Amen. This squad, with a couple of tidy additions and a manager that knows how to play imaginative football could achieve something very special. I thought it under Sir Alex and my belief still remains intact. Personnel-wise, we're not far away at all. It doesn't really matter who we do buy, they will always be hindered by the percentage, negative and one-dimensional approach that stems from the coaching staff. Massive flaws my arse - we had no more flaws than Chelsea did come the start of the season. "Ageing" defenders, a worse central midfield than our own and a sad group of strikers. Every team has flaws, the sign of a good manager is to work beyond them. Moyes has just exacerbated any issues with acts of total stupidity.
Hmmm... How long did he last at CB against Arsenal?
If we ignore that game you've got a lot of poor defensive displays and soft goals conceded. Not that this is all Smalling's fault but he's still got a lot to learn IMO.
You can take your pick for crap defensive performances in Europe. The season before last was one long horror show.
If we ignore that game you've got a lot of poor defensive displays and soft goals conceded. Not that this is all Smalling's fault but he's still got a lot to learn IMO.
You can take your pick for crap defensive performances in Europe. The season before last was one long horror show.
What are you on about? He came on in the 61st minute.
I think even the most generous United fan couldn't deny that Smalling's progress has slowed to a crawl in the last season and a half or so. I'm just hoping it's one of the troughs that young-ish players go through, rather than being the sort of level we're going to get from him.
Very drunk. He came on after they scored the 2nd with less than half an hour left.
So he played a third of the game and created our only two dangerous moments.
He played the first half and Arsenal created very little. He deserves as much credit as anyone for keeping out one of the better attacks in the league.
None of those poor defensive displays except perhaps the Hull match can be laid at his door. Five of the 8 goals were late errors by other players (Shaktar Vidic, Everton Valencia, West Ham Buttner, Sunderland De Gea, Vidic Fulham). So that's 11 starts at CB and arguably 1 poor game. The lad's a brilliant CB who's getting fecked about badly by a poor manager. It's similar with Welbeck, where he's had about 10 matches as a CF and been largely brilliant, but has been fecked about the rest of the time and looked inept as a result. Albeit in his case you do at least have Van Persie ahead of him, instead of fecking Rio.
Or you could take your pick, seeing as you made the claim. He's barely started a match in his proper position in Europe since the Schalke semi final.
Last season we would compare our squad man for man with others in the league and purs would usually have gotten most people's votes.
It's amazing how most of the talk in the broadcast studios is always about the players, at least the one I watch. Hardly a peep about the possibility of Moyes not being good enough.
As opposed to starting Smalling there and playing Rio and Vidic at centreback? Do you think that worked well then? What exactly could Valencia have done to do any worse than Smalling?
Why have you ignored all of the other points I've made to make one dubious comment? What about Young, Valencia, Cleverley, Rio/Vidic?
Were you surprised at any of the above players performances last night? If so, why? It's the same basic level of performance they've all produced whenever they've played this season, so technically you are a genuinely insane person if you were expecting any different.
I don't see anything left to defend to be honest. You can't defend the players who played because they've been so consistently shite, and you can't defend the manager because even in spite of this, he keeps picking them over other players. The only ones who can escape blame are the ones Moyes keeps leaving out regardless of whether they play well or not.
It was actually Smalling that crossed to RvP, not Young but yeah, Kagawa did ok. Like I said, I would have started him.
We were still shite with him on the pitch though, which was my main point. A single opportunity in 30 minutes when we desperately needed to score is very poor.
The squad is very good. I've always said that and my opinion hasn't changed.
A lot of clubs would envy our resources but laugh at the "way" we play.
I'd love to see what a "coach" like Martinez or the other modern coaches could do with these players.
A lot of clubs would envy our resources but laugh at the "way" we play.
I'd love to see what a "coach" like Martinez or the other modern coaches could do with these players.
I already addressed your other points.
And yes, Valencia would have been worse than Smalling at full back. Just like he has been every time he played there this season.
Another
That's the team almost everyone can clearly see suits us best.
THEN when one of the team gets injured / rested they should be being replaced with with the next best person in their position. ( Mata for Kagawa. Fellaini for Fletcher / Cleverley etc ).. Players shouldn't be getting played out of position!! ( Smalling at right back is more understandable because we've no backup after we fecking SOLD him in January )
It's a shape where, if we want to set up more defensively we can revert into a 451. 442 is not the way we should be lining up with our attacking options! It's just so obvious.
That's the team almost everyone can clearly see suits us best.
THEN when one of the team gets injured / rested they should be being replaced with with the next best person in their position. ( Mata for Kagawa. Fellaini for Fletcher / Cleverley etc ).. Players shouldn't be getting played out of position!! ( Smalling at right back is more understandable because we've no backup after we fecking SOLD him in January )
It's a shape where, if we want to set up more defensively we can revert into a 451. 442 is not the way we should be lining up with our attacking options! It's just so obvious.
How would he have been worse?
You haven't addressed any of the other points.
I named a team that could have played last night (which didn't have Valencia at fullback, or Carrick not in midfield) that was obviously better than the one that played.
What I'm looking for is some kind of reason for why Moyes chose the team he did instead, because I can't find one that doesn't come back to the point that he is just plain delusional with regards to his players.
There's no point debating the quality of the squad when Moyes can't even use it correctly. It's like debating buying someone a faster car when you know they don't know how to drive.
British manager.
Right, just to try and finally summarise my "Rio should never play for the club again" crusade and my belief that Vidic should only have been a squad player this season, I went and checked how many times this season less than two of our three potentially brilliant young CBs were available.
The answer is five times. Only five times this season have we been unable to put out a CB pairing drawn from the three younger players, and only one of those was prior to the last few weeks. And each of those five times Vidic was available to play. So yeah, had we a reserve right back and a decent manager then Rio would never have needed to play this season and Vidic could have been used as sparingly as he should be considering his current state.
The answer is five times. Only five times this season have we been unable to put out a CB pairing drawn from the three younger players, and only one of those was prior to the last few weeks. And each of those five times Vidic was available to play. So yeah, had we a reserve right back and a decent manager then Rio would never have needed to play this season and Vidic could have been used as sparingly as he should be considering his current state.