It crossed my mind that it might have something to do with that, but I doubt it. Like I alluded to in my earlier post, everyone lost their shit when we opted for Martial over Pedro. Most are just risk adverse, and can't see past signing supposed sure thing player, or sure thing flavor of the month manager...
The Argument for Giggs as our Next Manager
- Thread starter Walrus
- Start date
- Status
I made a thread about that a few years ago, general consensus was it wouldnt affect him. But then again it was a few years ago.
my dreams are not borne from bins.
Fair enough, though I also take exception with an assertion you made in the previous post :
United's executive board (the real power brokers at the club) has exactly zero people with background knowledge of football. That is not robust at all as it pertains to sporting decision making. The board will trust the non-executive directors with the footballing side of things, and if you look at that :
Sir Alex Ferguson : The most important man in the history of United, but he's nearing 75 years of age, and there will be a natural dissonance with his grasp on the way football is headed. Might sound weird right now, but between him becoming progressively mellow, focusing on his books and seminars, and distancing himself from the actual bare bones running of a football club, Fergie's decision making will deteriorate, and he will be more romantically inclined to favor a son-like figure in Giggs, than rationally weigh all the possible outcomes.
Sir Bobby Charlton : The most important player in the history of United, but he's nearing 80 years of age, and like Fergie, he will be captivated by the idea of Ryan Giggs as the United manager, a player who succeeded in his legacy, becoming the manager of United. He also championed the cause of David Moyes previously, while coming up with platitudes their pertained more towards his grasp of the culture, old school values, 'blue collar' work ethic, and other tangential traits; rather than footballing achievements, so we should keep the objectivity (or lack thereof) displayed previously in perspective.
David Gill : We know that he wasn't the biggest fan of David Moyes to begin with, but was kept in check by people with greater decision making prowess. As United's ex-CEO, someone with a deep understanding of major business decisions, and a finance man, he is arguably the most objective one out of the three. But again, will his input be overruled? And given his involved with the FIFA and UEFA Executive Committee, and the FA, how likely is he to immerse himself when the current managers needs replacing?
So really, if you look at it in greater detail, we're not really that robust to be honest, especially when it comes to sporting decisions of this scale. We're not like Bayern Munich who previously had Uli Hoeneß, Andreas Jung, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, Matthias Sammer; or Ajax with Dirk Schoenaker, Tonny Slott, Edwin van der Sar, Marc Overmars when it comes to football experience, and being up to date with the upper echelons of European football. The owners and executive board members know next to nothing about football, and will likely trust Fergie and Sir Bobby again, and them giving in to their romantic instincts might backfire spectacularly, as happened with the Moyes appointment. The most important person in all of this might just be Ed Woodward, the final decision will likely be his, and one hopes that he considers the appointment on the basis of merit, as it should be. If Giggs' CV stacks up against the likely candidates, then ok, give him the job, though with Guardiola leaving Bayern in the near future, and Ancelotti still looking for a job, that might be extremely unlikely, if not downright impossible.
Before the affairs Giggs could do no wrong.
Then after there were threads actually saying that he didn't fulfill his potential which is quite stupid.
I don't even need to list his trophy haul or the fact that he is the all time assist leader or that he has assists in 2 CL finals or that he was the best player on the pitch against Madrid at the age of 38.
Then after there were threads actually saying that he didn't fulfill his potential which is quite stupid.
I don't even need to list his trophy haul or the fact that he is the all time assist leader or that he has assists in 2 CL finals or that he was the best player on the pitch against Madrid at the age of 38.
Let's be honest tho, it is a scandalous thing that he did 
I think I've compartmentalized it...
I think I've compartmentalized it...
I don't buy into point no. 2 as managing any other club doesn't and cannot prove a person's capability of managing Manchester United, which is a unique proposition. Not to say that having a proven track record isn't a good thing, as clearly it would be.
As for point no. 1, therein lies the dilema. Can we appoint someone for the long term? Would Guardiola, Ancelotti and their like be available? Are they a natural fit for our club? I wouldn't be opposed to appointing a proven world class manager, I would just ask whether it is a necessity to 'avoid' the failure so many are worried about. I'd venture to say, if done right, with the right team behind him, Gigg's could achieve success in ways the others could not.
But is anyone saying to give Giggs the nod over these managers? If Peps available and willing I guarantee he gets the job and Giggs gets told to wait... but this is a handful of managers we are talking about and it's very likely that none maybe available/willing just like last time.
Nah, let me try to explain it better.
The post I replied to suggested we should *definitely* appoint Giggs because the taste of glory would be better than with any other manager.
My point was that is extremely flawed logic. It would be an amazing feeling to have Giggs lead us to glory, sure, but we also have to take into account the probability of success with him as manager.
If the chance of success is far higher with a proven manager, then you can't say with absolutely certainty that we should appoint Giggs.
Let's use a different example (and again, this is just an example)
- Giggs gives us a 10% chance of a UCL within 5 years
- Pep gives us an 80% chance of a UCL within 5 years
If we knew this was the case would we still appoint Giggs just because the 'taste' of success would be sweeter? I wouldn't.
That's not actually how this works, but I admire your perseverance
How so? The logic seems perfectly fine to me.
Evcellent post. Highlights some of the deeper issues that United face.
There really ought to be a structure in place that would protect the identity and future direction of the club both on a footballing and commercial side, 2 facets which are inextricably linked. The profound importance of securing our existence and place in an increasing competitive football world and how to achieve it, demands a more robust operating environment. That though, I suppose, is a subject for another thread....
Last edited:
Ok, just to humour you, you're scenario would be more akin to you hiring the tea lady to win the CL or get you relegated completely out of the league and in fact out of all existence... Nothing in between
That is bullshit and this appointment is not pending.
The odds are completely irrelevant. The fact that probability *is* relevant is the point.
Presuming that none of them might be available, or evidencing defeatism from the onset and questioning their willingness is not the way to go about things surely? Poor planning, and lack of a cogent succession plan (not only Fergie, but Gill's departure) is what led us to the doors of Mr. Moyes, when the likes of Ancelotti, Guardiola and Mourinho all traded clubs in the same summer. One could always tailor the appointment to ensure that one of those two is available.
Which is why are previously mentioned, I'm of the mindset that if it comes to it, United should part ways with the current manager in case either of the big two are available in the summer. We will lose one year of Van Gaal, and there will be the inevitable transition phase for the third time in as many seasons, but both of them will serve as an upgrade, and that will atleast make sure that we're getting one of the elite managers for the near to medium term future. Bit like Bayern and Heyneckes, the manager who had just led them to a treble, though with the added detail of his contract expiring. That's the type of foresight and efficiency United should ideally try to emulate.
I got what you were trying to say, that's why I asked you why you were exaggerating for effect... It just dulls the point of your argument
Huh? It's a very real possibility... If only things went as smoothly as you make out... Let's see what happens, I'm fine with Giggs. I'm also fine with any top echelon manager. The only disagreement here is that you aren't fine with Giggs...
Last edited:
Well your tea lady example showed that you didn't get it. It was just a demonstration of the importance of probability of success in any decision. I could have explained it better though.
Does she have her coaching badges?
Nevermind, I was questioning why you and some others feel the need to exaggerate for effect. It's getting old in this thread, your points are valid but anyone would think we were talking about the aforementioned tea lady and not the legend that is Ryan Giggs
Could possibly add another 2 or 3% that...
With an attitude like that, might as well accept defeat in the chase for a top manager right now. Of course the possibility for what you suggest exists, but let's put it this way - if Carlo Ancelotti is available in the summer (which he is extremely likely to be), and United approach him for the job, he's not going to say no. Did so previously because he was at Real Madrid, but jobs of the scale of United won't be available to him in the summer, unless one considers the like of City to be United's equals (that's a topic for a wholly different discussion). How about that for a possible scenario working out, albeit with a positive outcome?
If you want to be patronizing, then I suggest we stop this argument right now. Save the snarky comments for more opportune moments. No one said it will be smooth sailing, but plenty of elite clubs have no problem whatsoever in appointing top grade managers, precisely because they approach things with conviction, and pre-plan things to account for potential availability. That's because they focus on things in great detail, and are ruthlessly efficient, in stark contrast to what we did last time around.
I'm not fine with Giggs because a) his CV doesn't stack up, and b) we can and should appoint one of the elite. That's the most reductive argument against his appointment. However, if it comes to a situation where no one is available, then might as well make him the manager. I'll put my apprehensions on the back burner, as I did with Moyes. But that would go further to demonstrate the ineptness when it comes to chalking up managerial succession plans.
I don't doubt your sincerity but if an 'elite' manager were not available, then you shouldn't have to resort to Giggs as the next best choice, as there will be a ton of others who would 'stack' up better when considered from your 'not incorrect' point of view.
Yikes...
Like I said, if only things were so smooth... Call it snark (it's just my posting style, most are used to it by now) if you want to. Thought I was being optimistic... Was just pointing out that those managers that keep being named in this thread may not actually be available...
I've changed my mind. I want Martin O'Neill to get the job. Good night all.
And?
What else are you expecting?
We still debating this? It will be a trainwreck, like Sounness managing Liverpool. Meanwhile Liverpool pick up a top notch coach.
I don't even care about any affairs. I just care about what is best for United. Giggs is clearly a United legend as a player, but I'm not convinced he should be our next manager. We must not make the same mistake we did before, by hiring someone with no top level managerial experience.
Well those of us who cant tell the future are debating it. Unlike yourself who seems to know whats going to happen.
What else would you like to know?
I like to find out lots of things, I dont make predictions of a potential career on 4 games. But then again Im not a reactionary cretin.
How is it not pending?
Fair point, but Giggs doesn't even have that. And we don't know how strong a coach he is, or what his playing style or vision for the team is. Too many unknowns in my opinion, which is why I think we should go for an established manager after next year.
Pretty much this, I love Giggsy, but it's way too big a risk
the truth is we don't know because Giggs is untried.
But if he is given the job, I'm sure the owners will have some conditions, like finishing in the top 4 for starters and perhaps the title within 3 years..just saying.
But if he is given the job, I'm sure the owners will have some conditions, like finishing in the top 4 for starters and perhaps the title within 3 years..just saying.
Or it will be like Guardiola for Barca. Truth is no one knows for sure how will it turn out. There will be question and risk for sure.
Only thing we know at this point is:
1. Giggs epitomizes every success and values of Man Utd in past 20 years.
2. He seems intelligent, adaptive and have good knowledge of the game.
3. Everyone hold him in the highest regard in Old Trafford, and in football.
4. As manager he is inexperience, with no track record of success. But he is young and learning, and have every setup and time he needs grooming to become one.
Last edited:
Our problems before was we hired a negative, defensive minded manager with a weak personality. That's not giggs. We know he'll be attack minded, he's a United legend so will have the respect of the players and the backing of the fans, Van Gaal and sir alex have backed him constantly to become the next manager and he's been Van gaals #2 and saw how sir alex worked for so many years.... If there's any ex United player who can become a top manager, I think it's him really. Him or Gary Neville if he went down that route. Obviously we don't know if he'll be a success or failure, but by the time he takes over, we'll have a team something like:
Martial (21)
Memphis (23) mata (29) Januzaj (22/23)
Schneiderlin (27/28) herrera (28)
Shaw (22/23) smalling (27ish) Jones (25ish) darmian (27/28)
De gea (if he's still here... 26?)
With pereira, wilson, and any other youngster who makes it through the youth ranks, along with any other big signing we make which we surely will. We have a very young but hugely promising squad, with probably 5 of them having the potential to become world class players or close to it and a potential ballon d'or winner in martial. The squad is set up perfectly for the next manager in terms of the players we have, and there's every chance Giggs can succeed at united.Memphis (23) mata (29) Januzaj (22/23)
Schneiderlin (27/28) herrera (28)
Shaw (22/23) smalling (27ish) Jones (25ish) darmian (27/28)
De gea (if he's still here... 26?)
That's why I think Giggs would be the perfect choice, not as manager, but as director of football. Someone steeped in the traditions of the club with experience on the pitch, relationships with players and coaches, and a massive haul of medals to aid in recruiting. The bonus of that role is avoiding the trauma of his potential sacking over bad results he would face in a high profile manager job.
Guardiola lead a team which was on the tip of greatness. His side was able to win the treble with frigging Luis Enrique leading it. Once Pep won everything at Barca he moved to its only realistic competitor and guess what? He kept winning. We dont have any Messis, Iniestas, Xavis, Mullers and Albas in our team. FFS we sometimes struggle to play a defence filled with defenders
My mistake, yes Butt will be in the u21's, Gary will be England manager though, he could be our part time video analyst( unbeknownst to the media) like that guy that sits next to Van Gaal all the time.
- Status