The Argument for Giggs as our Next Manager

[YouOnlyLiveTwice]

My heart says yes, my brain says no.

 

[BAMSOLA]

I've never quite understood the huge aversion to having him as the next manager, I'd love to him him given a shot at it personally as I'm one of those who thinks he actually did well in his stint as caretaker and feel he has learnt alongside two of the very best (as player under SAF and assistant under LVG of course).

 

[NessunDorma]

Giggs is a much bigger risk than Moyes ever was.

And pretty much all the arguments put forward here also apply to e.g. Mike Phelan and Carlos Quiroz.

Worked with and won trophies with Fergie for years, surely learnt from him, know the club inside out, are respected, etc . . .

The only thing Giggs has over them is his playing career, and that doesn't necessarily count for anything at all. Just look at Robson, Keane and Charlton. All quite-good-but-not-elite managers, despite being elite players.

 

[Minimalist]

For every Souness there's a King Kenny (who wasn't a great manager, all things said and done - but who certainly wasn't a terrible one either). Or a Cruyff (who was a great manager, all things said and done).

Or a Pep (who turned out an even better manager than he was a player).

It's a gamble. It's not idiotic as such, as some people claim, seemingly thinking that managing a football club requires a level of both experience and scholastic credentials that obviously aren't required. A gamble is a gamble. But then again, my impression is that many United fans these days don't like gambles.

Can we ask another question: Why do we want Ryan Fecking Giggs as our manager though? Why him? Some bloke who despite his immense service on the pitch, is the same bloke who has proven to be a complete scumbag off it.

What is so great and remarkable about him potentially proving to be a 'decent' manager? This is where I can't relate to our supporters at times with their nauseating romanticism.

Can't we move on sometimes? Can't we just appoint a top manager that has a history of producing winning teams? That manager may well fail but at least we have based the appointment on sound footing and a touch of business logic.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

What about proving he could be a success at a lower-level club? Or are you implying Giggs isn't capable of that?

Would you be comfortable with him taking over United after a successful (to what extent?) spell at a lower-level club (how low?) then? What does that prove? That he's Steve Bruce?

Either you gamble on him - or you don't entertain the idea. It's as simple as that.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Can we ask another question though: Why do we want Ryan Fecking Giggs as our manager though?

I don't want him as our feckin' manager. I'm debating whether it's insane to propose him as such - or not.

Your "scumbag" point is utterly irrelevant in any context, by the way. If we introduced a "let's not consider anyone who has cheated on his wife (yes, yes, with his bloody sister-in-law), or otherwise done anything which might be considered cnutish in any shape or form" policy, we'd struggle to hire anyone as our next manager.

 

[Oddboy]

Pep is a bad example for those arguing against Giggs. He was manager of the B team for one season in the 3rd tier of Spanish football, which at the time had 364 clubs in said tier. Guess Giggs had better go to Gainsborough Trinity and win them the Vanarama North before he's considered on the same level... By the way this was a team which had Pedro, Busquets and a young Thiago playing for them at the time. I'm not having a go at Pep by the way, he's clearly a top manager, but don't use him as a barometer for measuring Giggs' lack of experience.

 

[Minimalist]

I don't want him as our feckin' manager. I'm debating whether it's insane to propose him as such - or not.

Your "scumbag" point is utterly irrelevant in any context, by the way. If we introduced a "let's not consider anyone who has cheated on his wife (yes, yes, with his bloody sister-in-law), or otherwise done anything which might be considered cnutish in any shape or form" policy, we'd struggle to hire anyone as our next manager.

Well to plainly answer that specific question, it's not INSANE. It's just extremely risky and highly unlikely United will remain a top side with him as manager.

I was referring to the other side of the Pro-Giggs lot which seem to just love the idea of a former player becoming manager. Like as if that is somehow better than anyone else coming in and doing a good job.

And by the way, Giggs' character is called into question by those 'irrelevant' actions. Given we have no evidence of what he would be like as a manager, we can only predict based on what we know. We at least know he has little loyalty amongst other qualities. It's nowhere near the main criteria but it still 'matters' to some degree.

 

[Drifter]

Is there anything to argue about.He will be the successor when Van Gaal leaves.

 

[afrocentricity]

I've always said Giggs should be next, if he wants.

 

[bosnian_red]

Giggs is a much bigger risk than Moyes ever was.

And pretty much all the arguments put forward here also apply to e.g. Mike Phelan and Carlos Quiroz.

Worked with and won trophies with Fergie for years, surely learnt from him, know the club inside out, are respected, etc . . .

The only thing Giggs has over them is his playing career, and that doesn't necessarily count for anything at all. Just look at Robson, Keane and Charlton. All quite-good-but-not-elite managers, despite being elite players.

Idk, IMO Moyes wasn't a risk at all. Was never cut out for us and clearly was never going to work. Giggs could go either way, none of us have any idea really. What we do know, is that he'll have been under Fergie's wing his whole playing career, saw what failed under Moyes, and is now next to Van Gaal. Can't have a better tutoring really

 

[Ringo 07]

It would be madness to give him the job......We can't afford another 7th place finish in the next few seasons......Giggs could turn out to be a great manager but he also could turn out to be rubbish so he needs to show what he can do at a mid-table club before even getting a sniff at the Utd gig

 

[khoazany]

We need continuity after LVG - presuming he will retire here not sacked.The fact that Giggs is the legend of this club and know this club from inside out is a big bonus.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I was referring to the other side of the Pro-Giggs lot which seem to just love the idea of a former player becoming manager.

It clearly isn't. It's a terrible idea, in fact - as such. But for a huge club (which we are, I still claim), and a huge club player (which Giggs clearly is), the idea has precedence. It's been done before. That's all I'm saying. I react to those posting green lads at the idea, as though they know something beyond...nothing.

Stranger things have happened - put it like that. And my main gripe is with the crew who think it's a good idea to ship Giggsy out to manage a shite team in England to "prove" himself. Because that is insanity - or stupidity, or both.

 

[Shez]

Im sick of possession football... I want wingplay, fast transitions and counterattacking back. *Gary Neville would be so proud of me right now*

Edit: Ergo... Giggs or Klopp

 

[Speak]

Pep is a bad example for those arguing against Giggs. He was manager of the B team for one season in the 3rd tier of Spanish football, which at the time had 364 clubs in said tier. Guess Giggs had better go to Gainsborough Trinity and win them the Vanarama North before he's considered on the same level... By the way this was a team which had Pedro, Busquets and a young Thiago playing for them at the time. I'm not having a go at Pep by the way, he's clearly a top manager, but don't use him as a barometer for measuring Giggs' lack of experience.

Read a bit more about Pep, and you'll find that he got rid of the c team and merged it with the b team (who had just been relegated to the fourth division - not third). He got rid of a load of players in the process.

Busquets wasn't the Busquets we know today, and actually only got into the b team consistently half way through the season.
Pedro wasn't as valued by others as he was by Guardiola. The reserve teams had been neglected for years and Guardiola was the one to reinstall pride.

He wasnt given the role - he insisted on it instead of a better paying director/ambassador role at the club. The b team manager's role wasn't a high profile one, to say the least.

He was able to prove his vision for the game could work, and got his team to such a level that they outplayed the first team.

You talk as if he was handed a high achieving/higly skilled b team and coasted.
He proved his methods and his character.

 

[Gopher Brown]

You don't put a novice in charge of a £2bn company.

I know football is different from 'business' in a traditional sense, but everything the chairman and the owners do is to give the manager the best chance to succeed. The manager is the most important job, and to give it to a guy who has managed 4 games is mental.

 

[Randall Flagg]

Would love to see it happen

Was desperate for him to get it permanent following his caretaker spell

It's a risk but one I want to see happen

 

[Lu Tze]

It's a mental idea. He should go and manage Cardiff and see if he can actually hack it as a manager.

 

[Varun]

Would any of you appoint an Arsenal or Chelsea legend like Giggs as our next manager? A Henry or a Terry?

That said, I so think he'll be in the running and my money would be on him taking over too so I sure as hell hope he's up to the job because he won't be easy to sack if he messes it up.

 

[Tarrou]

Would you be comfortable with him taking over United after a successful (to what extent?) spell at a lower-level club (how low?) then? What does that prove? That he's Steve Bruce?

Either you gamble on him - or you don't entertain the idea. It's as simple as that.

I don't want Giggs as manager.

I do think that some managerial experience > no managerial experience, though. And lots of managerial experience is even better. If Giggs is capable, there's no reason why he couldn't go and prove himself elsewhere, like the other candidates no doubt would have done.

Bruce hasn't proved himself to be a top manager, just a decent one. That isn't enough.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Mourinho worked his way up.

Someone worked his way up.

Klopp built a brilliant Dortmund team spending peanuts.

Sure they did. Especially "Someone". He was grand.

But they're in a completely different category. Great players getting the job on the back of them being great players...and something else (a desire to manage, actual badges, what have ye) - is a completely different category. Which is what people seem to fail to understand.

Giggs won't lead a Porto style team to a CL trophy. He won't build a Dortmund style team, like Klopp. If THAT is what it takes to make him a viable candidate, then forget it. It will obviously not happen.

If he is to succeed as a manager at the highest level, there's only one way that will realistically happen - namely that he gets the United gig and rises to the challenge. As other internal candidates have done at other top clubs.

What are the odds of Ryan Giggs, United legend and rumoured manager, taking over Hartlepool and going on from there to build a career which will make him worthy in the eyes of the muppets on here?

 

[Randall Flagg]

@Walrus I thought I was the only one who wanted this going by the other thread.

Good thread

 

[Varun]

Fwiw though, it's a strange one because I don't really buy into the "he should go and prove himself at a tier 3 club" reasoning either.

The demands of a Man Utd manager are very very different from a West Ham manager for instance and success there doesn't really mean the guy is good enough to manage us. Similarly, failure there doesn't mean the opposite either. How many of you think Pep would have become the manager he has had he started at some relegation fodder in Spain?

 

[Revan]

Would you be comfortable with him taking over United after a successful (to what extent?) spell at a lower-level club (how low?) then? What does that prove? That he's Steve Bruce?

Either you gamble on him - or you don't entertain the idea. It's as simple as that.

That he's Mauricio Pochetino, or Diego Simeone or Jurgen Klopp or Carlo Ancelotti.

If he proves that he is Steve Bruce or David Moyes instead, then that would be a good reason to not hire him. The managers at top clubs (bar Pep) have got themselves their jobs on merit, not because they were great players once upon a time. Why can't Giggs do that?

2 years ago we were saying the same for Ole, but then he turned out to be not that great as a manager. A decade ago it was Keano. Maybe the same will happen for Giggs and in 8 years we will be talking for Rooney instead.

 

[Speak]

Fwiw though, it's a strange one because I don't really buy into the "he should go and prove himself at a tier 3 club" reasoning either.

The demands of a Man Utd manager are very very different from a West Ham manager for instance and success there doesn't really mean the guy is good enough to manage us. Similarly, failure there doesn't mean the opposite either. How many of you think Pep would have become the manager he has had he started at some relegation fodder in Spain?

He wouldn't get the West Ham job anyway. Unless they got relegated, which actually be a good education, as they'd be expected to do well.

Not that I'm in the 'go and prove yourself' camp, I must add.

He'd have no problems getting a job at a club expected to do well, rather than relegation fodder.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Bruce hasn't proved himself to be a top manager, just a decent one. That isn't enough.

That's the point!

As I keep saying, there's only one realistic chance for Giggs to become United manager: To take over from within. He can't be Klopp or Maureen (who weren't better footballers than yours truly). He's in a completely different category to begin with.

The muppets on here want him to go on - after a more successful career as a player than anyone (almost) - to become some kind of Kloppy or Maureeny manager in his own right before being considered. It's ludicrous. From our perspective - from United's perspective - there's only one realistic alternative: He's in the Cruyff bracket (or whatever the hell you want to call it) - or he isn't (in which case he remains an AM at best). Sending him out to manage Tranmere won't make any difference.

 

[sammsky1]

Its a big huge yes from me and i fully expect it to happen and imagine the board is already signed off on it.

The key reasons why Moyes failed were that

1) The scale and complexity of our club was too big for him to absorb in such a short period of time, whereas only SAF and Giggs knows the ins and outs of our club.
2) He did not have the required level of personal skills; be that charisma, respect from players or refined training and motivational techniques. Giggs has already or will acquire all of this by the time LVG leaves.

I also like the point made in the OP made about continuity. If you look back at Liverpool, you can see the huge overhaul they had to go through every time they replaced Souness, Houllier, Benitez and now Rogers (Evans & Hodgson were not around long enough to rip everything up). Lets say Guardiola takes over from LVG: I really don't want him to come in and get rid of 12 players and bring in 6 new ones. In this sense, Chelsea and Manchester City have good models of retaining squad continuity despite new managers coming in.

Given the above, Giggs is just as likely to succeed as any other 'big name'. Most importantly for me, he will make the club feel like "Manchester United" and bring back the fast wing based counter attacking football that we all love.

 

[Attila]

I can see the argument for giving him the job after LVG...he will probably continue with what LVG has built and it would be good to have some stability for the future of the club. The club has lots of money so he should have a strong team to compete with and if he is a success then he will probably stay there for 10 years+ if his playing career longevity is anything to go by. Maybe the positives outweigh the risks.

One of the major problems I find with him is that he seems to have very little charisma compared to other managers. He has dead eyes or something. Plus I have no idea how good he is tactically etc.

It all depends on who is available when LVG leaves. It would be hard to justify going for Giggs over Guardiola for example like it was dumb to go for Moyes over Mourinho. I mean if the likes of Guardiola and Simeone are avalible then I would go for them but Giggs would be kinda interesting. I just hope that if he does a Moyes the club doesn't get sentimental and be scared to sack him. Although I don't think Woodward has any problems with that so it should be fine.

 

[Varun]

He wouldn't get the West Ham job anyway. Unless they got relegated, which actually be a good education, as they'd be expected to do well.

Not that I'm in the 'go and prove yourself' camp, I must add.

He'd have no problems getting a job at a club expected to do well, rather than relegation fodder.

I am using West ham as an example for any tier 3 club. He won't be getting a job at a tier 2 club like Spurs, let's not kid ourselves.

 

[Attila]

Its a big huge yes from me and i fully expect it to happen and imagine the board is already signed off on it.

The key reasons why Moyes failed were that

1) The scale and complexity of our club was too big for him to absorb in such a short period of time, whereas only SAF and Giggs knows the ins and outs of our club.
2) He did not have the required level of personal skills; be that charisma, respect from players or refined training and motivational techniques. Giggs has already or will acquire all of this by the time LVG leaves.

If Giggs had replaced Fergie he would have failed just like Moyes. The team was horrible

 

[Revan]

Would love to see it happen

Was desperate for him to get it permanent following his caretaker spell

It's a risk but one I want to see happen

You were desperate to give Moyes an another year, IIRC. Correct me if I am wrong.

A funny thing: most people who seem to want Giggs as our new manager, were into 'give Moyes an another year' camp.

Btw, I don't think that Giggs would be the same as Moyes. Giggs can go either way (with probability being significantly higher than it could go wrong), while Moyes was always clear that it can go wrong. I am far more relaxed and supportive to the idea of giving Giggs a go than I was for Moyes, but it would cetrainly be an insane decision. It might go right but really it can go terribly wrong, and sacking Giggs would be quite difficult (in the first year) which might make the recuperation process even slower than this one.

I can't see Ed making this decision. He is working hard to get back from Moyes fiasco, so I can't see him gambling again (actually in Moyes case he was the victim of Sir Alex/Sir Bobby gambling). It will be whichever from Klopp and Pep is available, IMO.

 

[2 man midfield]

You have to look at this objectively, without rose tinted glasses, and with a clear head. He's proven nothing. You need to draw a definitive line between his playing and managerial careers, because it means nothing when discussing him as our next boss. How many top players make top managers? Ancellotti? Any more?

Lightning doesn't strike twice. We aren't going to happen upon a ready made, long term successor who will give us another 26 years of success. We need to stop looking at those "cut from the same cloth", and avoid sentiment. As i said in the other thread, we're now just the same as Chelsea, Madrid, Barca and the rest. We change managers every few years, and we take the best available at the time. Fergie's time was amazing while it lasted, but we won't see it again.

 

[Attila]

2 years ago we were saying the same for Ole, but then he turned out to be not that great as a manager. A decade ago it was Keano. Maybe the same will happen for Giggs and in 8 years we will be talking for Rooney instead.

Good point...I think Mark Hughes was talked about when he was at Blackburn or something as well.

 

[Oddboy]

Read a bit more about Pep, and you'll find that he got rid of the c team and merged it with the b team (who had just been relegated to the fourth division - not third). He got rid of a load of players in the process.

Busquets wasn't the Busquets we know today, and actually only got into the b team consistently half way through the season.
Pedro wasn't as valued by others as he was by Guardiola. The reserve teams had been neglected for years and Guardiola was the one to reinstall pride.

He wasnt given the role - he insisted on it instead of a better paying director/ambassador role at the club.

He was able to prove his vision for the game could work, and got his team to such a level that they outplayed the first team.

You talk as if he was handed a high achieving/higly skilled b team and coasted.
He proved his methods and his character.

I was mostly being flippant but I appreciate your response. I will admit that the odds are stacked against appointing a club legend but from where we are we have no idea how good Giggs is as a Manager or a Coach. I'm not saying I have a great knowledge on the history of Pep and his rise as Barca manager but I think it reinforces my point that on the surface it looks a fairly average achievement taking Barca B to a tier 3 title by 1 point, yet behind closed doors there is more going on. Basically fans don't know half of the shit, and the extreme opinions that people have on Giggs from both sides seems a bit extreme.

 

[Amir]

The idea that 'Pep did it' kind of tends to miss all the great players who tried management, some at their former clubs, and failed miserably.

Who knows where we'll be in two or three years. Now we are in a pretty delicate state and while every appointment is a risk, some - like someone who had never been a manager - are bigger than others.

 

[arthurka]

I am all for Giggs as our next manager.. We will keep our identity.

 

[Revan]

You have to look at this objectively, without rose tinted glasses, and with a clear head. He's proven nothing. You need to draw a definitive line between his playing and managerial careers, because it means nothing when discussing him as our next boss. How many top players make top managers? Ancellotti? Any more?

Lightning doesn't strike twice. We aren't going to happen upon a ready made, long term successor who will give us another 26 years of success. We need to stop looking at those "cut from the same cloth", and avoid sentiment. As i said in the other thread, we're now just the same as Chelsea, Madrid, Barca and the rest. We change managers every few years, and we take the best available at the time. Fergie's time was amazing while it lasted, but we won't see it again.

There are more (better) examples than him. Cruyff and Beckenbauer are the biggest high profile examples, with Pep, Ancelotti, Maldini and Dalglish other great examples.

However, the number of those who fail dwarfs the number of top players who are succesful in management.

 

[Speak]

2) He did not have the required level of personal skills; be that charisma, respect from players or refined training and motivational techniques. Giggs has already or will acquire all of this by the time LVG leaves.

He'll acquire motivational skills and charisma? How exactly?

Respect from players is easily lost. It's not really to do with what you won as a player. It's more a case of them believing that if 'I do what he says, we'll win, and here's why'.
A glittering career may gain you a bit of that respect that day you first say hello, but it wont matter a bit afterwards, if you're not good at managing.

Or do you believe that he already has charisma and motivational skills? What evidence is there? Many would say the complete opposite.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The managers at top clubs (bar Pep) have got themselves their jobs on merit, not because they were great players once upon a time. Why can't Giggs do that?

How many great players have proven themselves as great managers independently of the clubs for whom their greatness was achieved as players?

You're playing a different sort of game, arguing a different sort of case. If we're hiring on managerial merit (achieved independently, elsewhere) then Giggs isn't to be considered. Nor were King Kenny or Cruyff.