The Americas Draft

[Moby]

I feel a lot better now. Had lost the will to live for a second there after Ancheta got picked.

 

[P-Nut]

I feel a lot better now. Had lost the will to live for a second there after Ancheta got picked.

I've been trying to work out the strongest and weakest teams and it's abit of a struggle at the moment. @Mciahel Goodman is at a bit of a disadvantage with having to get all his pool 2 players now and obviously missing a pick but he should be able to turn it round.

 

[Moby]

I've been trying to work out the strongest and weakest teams and it's abit of a struggle at the moment. @Mciahel Goodman is at a bit of a disadvantage with having to get all his pool 2 players now and obviously missing a pick but he should be able to turn it round.

Honestly literally nothing between the teams at the moment. The draft has been cut-throat. Most of the games would come down to tactics and personal preferences.

 

[Ecstatic]

Calm down with this FFS people will pick when the my are ready

The idea was not to exert pressure but to speed up the process, which is completely different...

 

[Ecstatic]

I've been trying to work out the strongest and weakest teams and it's abit of a struggle at the moment. @Mciahel Goodman is at a bit of a disadvantage with having to get all his pool 2 players now and obviously missing a pick but he should be able to turn it round.

There are still great opportunities regarding the pool 2 players. I also think the teams are homogeneous.

 

[Enigma_87]

Nice pic @Enigma_87 he was next up for me . One of the few defenders in this draft to win any kind of individual award

Yeah I like both Anceta and Branco picks. Both bring balance I the back line and have won a fair few accolades during their careers.

 

[Enigma_87]

Nice.

Cheers mate. We thought it over with Joga with a couple of other quality defenders from pool 2 still to be picked.

 

[Moby]

Absolutely looking forward to reading about a lot of these players but I'll have to say, I'm a bit wary about the immense hyperbole that might be carried along with that, specially a few of these older names who by most accounts seem to come across as 3-4 players rolled into one who never made an error on the pitch. I hope that there's some sort of balance in evaluation between the modern and older players where usually the former get criticised for every little error due to us watching them day in day out or there being loads of footage as opposed to those who have a couple of articles telling us about their entire careers, etc.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Absolutely looking forward to reading about a lot of these players but I'll have to say, I'm a bit wary about the immense hyperbole that might be carried along with that, specially a few of these older names who by most accounts seem to come across as 3-4 players rolled into one who never made an error on the pitch. I hope that there's some sort of balance in evaluation between the modern and older players where usually the former get criticised for every little error due to us watching them day in day out or there being loads of footage as opposed to those who have a couple of articles telling us about their entire careers, etc.

I agree with this.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

I've been trying to work out the strongest and weakest teams and it's abit of a struggle at the moment. @Mciahel Goodman is at a bit of a disadvantage with having to get all his pool 2 players now and obviously missing a pick but he should be able to turn it round.

It was my own mistake, though. And, as Aldo says, these things are mostly due to tactics and whatnot. I'm just taking part to see how this thing works, not expecting to win anything. Just fun for me.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Hugo De Leon

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Skizzo/Pat 1. Ronaldo (BRA) 2. L. Junior (BRA) 3. Joya (PER) 4. Bochini (ARG) 5. D. Pereyra (URU) 6. R. Pavoni (URU) 7. J. Altafini (BRA) 8. Rattin (ARG) 9. P. Forlan (URU)

Enigma/Joga 1. M.Garrincha (BRA) 2. J.Zanetti (ARG) 3. D.Godin (URU) 4. Zito (BRA) 5. Ruben Sosa (URU) 6. J. Veron (ARG) 7. M.Kempes (ARG) 8. A. Ancheta (URU) 9. Branco (BRA)

oneniltothearsenal 1. Zico (BRA) 2. Domingos Da Guia (BRA) 3. Socrates (BRA) 4. Leonel Sánchez (CHI) 5. Eyzaguirre (CHI) 6. Careca (BRA) 7. R. Marcos (CHI) 8. Júlio César da Silva (BRA) 9. Marinho Chagas (BRA)

Tuppet 1. Romario (BRA) 2. L. Monti (ARG) 3. V. Andrade (URU) 4. Perfumo (ARG) 5. Hector Scarone (URU) 6. Roberto Matosas (URU) 7. Deco (BRA) 8. A. Sastre (ARG) 9. O. Caetano (URU)

Aldo 1. D. Passarella (ARG) 2. R. Carlos (BRA) 3. E. Francescoli (URU) 4. O. Ruggeri (ARG) 5. J. Mascherano (ARG) 6. Leônidas Da Silva (BRA) 7. F. Arce (PAR) 8. A. Di María (ARG) 9. W. Martínez (URU)

EAP/Sjor 1. Djalma (BRA) 2. O Varela (URU) 3. Neymar (BRA) 4. I Cordoba (COL) 5. P Rocha (URU) 6. Tostao (BRA) 7. Jair da Costa (BRA) 8. A Angelilo (ARG) 9. Hugo de Leon (URU)

Physio 1. H. Chumpitaz (PER) 2. T. Cubillas (PER) 3. C. Valderrama (COL) 4. Julinho (BRA) 5. G. Delgado (PER) 6. D. Simeone (ARG) 7. E. Cambiasso (ARG) 8. L. Artime (ARG) 9.

Gio 1. Ronaldinho (BRA) 2. Nasazzi (URU) 3. Erico (PAR) 4. Zizinho (BRA) 5. Pedernera (ARG) 6. Mauro Silva (BRA) 7. Gambetta (URU) 8. Bellini (BRA) 9.

Maz/Mar/R 1. Didi (BRA) 2. Hugo Sanchez (MEX) 3. Marzolini (ARG) 4. Néstor Gonçalves (URU) 5. C. Gamarra (PAR) 6. Ghiggia (URU) 7. Zagallo (BRA) 8. Mauro Ramos (BRA) 9.

MounchesterUtd 1. Chilavert (CHI) 2. Rivelino (BRA) 3. Vidal (CHI) 4. Kaka (BRA) 5. W. Samuel (ARG) 6. Zamorano (CHI) 7. José Macia Pepe (BRA) 8. A. Gallego (ARG) 9.

DavidG 1. Cafu (BRA)2. Rivaldo ( BRA) 3. T. Silva ( BRA) 4. Aldair ( BRA) 5. Clodoaldo ( BRA) 6. Julio Cesar Romero ( PAR) 7. Michele Andreolo ( URU) 8. Radamel Falcao ( COL) 9.

Raees 1. P.R. Falcao (BRA) 2. Jairzinho (BRA) 3. J.M. Moreno (ARG) 4. P. Montero (URU) 5. R. Ayala (ARG) 6. A.Recoba (URU) 7. Orsi (ARG) 8. Pedro Petrone (URU) 9.

Boris 1. Schiaffino (URU) 2. J.L. Andrade (URU) 3. Gerson (BRA) 4. A. Spencer (ECU) 5. J. Melendez (PER) 6. Nestor Rossi (ARG) 7. F. Loustau (ARG) 8. Jorginho (BRA) 9.

Mciahel Goodman 1. C. Alberto (BRA) 2. G. Batistuta (ARG) 3. Lucio (BRA) 4. Dunga (BRA) 5. O. Ardilles (ARG) 6. Riquelme (ARG) 7. Crespo (ARG) 8. OPEN 9.

Jayvin 1. Redondo (ARG) 2. L. Suarez (URU) 3. Sivori (ARG) 4. Cueto (PER) 5. R. Marquez (MEX) 6. Maicon (BRA) 7. J. Velasquez (PER) 8. Tarantini (ARG) 9.

P-Nut/Downcast 1. N. Santos (BRA) 2. J.E. Santamaría (URU) 3. Dani Alves (BRA) 4. Alexis Sánchez (CHI) 5. Cerezo (BRA) 6. Luis Edm. Pereira (BRA) 7. D. Forlan (URU) 8. A.Quintano (CHI) 9.

@Physiocrat

 

[BorisDeLeFora]

Absolutely looking forward to reading about a lot of these players but I'll have to say, I'm a bit wary about the immense hyperbole that might be carried along with that, specially a few of these older names who by most accounts seem to come across as 3-4 players rolled into one who never made an error on the pitch. I hope that there's some sort of balance in evaluation between the modern and older players where usually the former get criticised for every little error due to us watching them day in day out or there being loads of footage as opposed to those who have a couple of articles telling us about their entire careers, etc.

That's a very good point, like a (e.g.) Di Maria level player from the sixties is probably going to be higher rated than current day Di Maria in this, I'd probably even do it myself sometimes, it's hard to know how to give a fairer judgement when comparing eras.
"

 

[Physiocrat]

Canhoteiro

Skizzo/Pat 1. Ronaldo (BRA) 2. L. Junior (BRA) 3. Joya (PER) 4. Bochini (ARG) 5. D. Pereyra (URU) 6. R. Pavoni (URU) 7. J. Altafini (BRA) 8. Rattin (ARG) 9. P. Forlan (URU)

Enigma/Joga 1. M.Garrincha (BRA) 2. J.Zanetti (ARG) 3. D.Godin (URU) 4. Zito (BRA) 5. Ruben Sosa (URU) 6. J. Veron (ARG) 7. M.Kempes (ARG) 8. A. Ancheta (URU) 9. Branco (BRA)

oneniltothearsenal 1. Zico (BRA) 2. Domingos Da Guia (BRA) 3. Socrates (BRA) 4. Leonel Sánchez (CHI) 5. Eyzaguirre (CHI) 6. Careca (BRA) 7. R. Marcos (CHI) 8. Júlio César da Silva (BRA) 9. Marinho Chagas (BRA)

Tuppet 1. Romario (BRA) 2. L. Monti (ARG) 3. V. Andrade (URU) 4. Perfumo (ARG) 5. Hector Scarone (URU) 6. Roberto Matosas (URU) 7. Deco (BRA) 8. A. Sastre (ARG) 9. O. Caetano (URU)

Aldo 1. D. Passarella (ARG) 2. R. Carlos (BRA) 3. E. Francescoli (URU) 4. O. Ruggeri (ARG) 5. J. Mascherano (ARG) 6. Leônidas Da Silva (BRA) 7. F. Arce (PAR) 8. A. Di María (ARG) 9. W. Martínez (URU)

EAP/Sjor 1. Djalma (BRA) 2. O Varela (URU) 3. Neymar (BRA) 4. I Cordoba (COL) 5. P Rocha (URU) 6. Tostao (BRA) 7. Jair da Costa (BRA) 8. A Angelilo (ARG) 9. Hugo de Leon (URU)

Physio 1. H. Chumpitaz (PER) 2. T. Cubillas (PER) 3. C. Valderrama (COL) 4. Julinho (BRA) 5. G. Delgado (PER) 6. D. Simeone (ARG) 7. E. Cambiasso (ARG) 8. L. Artime (ARG) 9. Canhoteiro (BRA)

Gio 1. Ronaldinho (BRA) 2. Nasazzi (URU) 3. Erico (PAR) 4. Zizinho (BRA) 5. Pedernera (ARG) 6. Mauro Silva (BRA) 7. Gambetta (URU) 8. Bellini (BRA) 9.

Maz/Mar/R 1. Didi (BRA) 2. Hugo Sanchez (MEX) 3. Marzolini (ARG) 4. Néstor Gonçalves (URU) 5. C. Gamarra (PAR) 6. Ghiggia (URU) 7. Zagallo (BRA) 8. Mauro Ramos (BRA) 9.

MounchesterUtd 1. Chilavert (CHI) 2. Rivelino (BRA) 3. Vidal (CHI) 4. Kaka (BRA) 5. W. Samuel (ARG) 6. Zamorano (CHI) 7. José Macia Pepe (BRA) 8. A. Gallego (ARG) 9.

DavidG 1. Cafu (BRA)2. Rivaldo ( BRA) 3. T. Silva ( BRA) 4. Aldair ( BRA) 5. Clodoaldo ( BRA) 6. Julio Cesar Romero ( PAR) 7. Michele Andreolo ( URU) 8. Radamel Falcao ( COL) 9.

Raees 1. P.R. Falcao (BRA) 2. Jairzinho (BRA) 3. J.M. Moreno (ARG) 4. P. Montero (URU) 5. R. Ayala (ARG) 6. A.Recoba (URU) 7. Orsi (ARG) 8. Pedro Petrone (URU) 9.

Boris 1. Schiaffino (URU) 2. J.L. Andrade (URU) 3. Gerson (BRA) 4. A. Spencer (ECU) 5. J. Melendez (PER) 6. Nestor Rossi (ARG) 7. F. Loustau (ARG) 8. Jorginho (BRA) 9.

Mciahel Goodman 1. C. Alberto (BRA) 2. G. Batistuta (ARG) 3. Lucio (BRA) 4. Dunga (BRA) 5. O. Ardilles (ARG) 6. Riquelme (ARG) 7. Crespo (ARG) 8. OPEN 9.

Jayvin 1. Redondo (ARG) 2. L. Suarez (URU) 3. Sivori (ARG) 4. Cueto (PER) 5. R. Marquez (MEX) 6. Maicon (BRA) 7. J. Velasquez (PER) 8. Tarantini (ARG) 9.

P-Nut/Downcast 1. N. Santos (BRA) 2. J.E. Santamaría (URU) 3. Dani Alves (BRA) 4. Alexis Sánchez (CHI) 5. Cerezo (BRA) 6. Luis Edm. Pereira (BRA) 7. D. Forlan (URU) 8. A.Quintano (CHI) 9.

@Gio

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Absolutely looking forward to reading about a lot of these players but I'll have to say, I'm a bit wary about the immense hyperbole that might be carried along with that, specially a few of these older names who by most accounts seem to come across as 3-4 players rolled into one who never made an error on the pitch. I hope that there's some sort of balance in evaluation between the modern and older players where usually the former get criticised for every little error due to us watching them day in day out or there being loads of footage as opposed to those who have a couple of articles telling us about their entire careers, etc.

Yep – this.

Most regulars will be aware of the potential problem, though, so it's not like people will get away with simply glorifying players unchecked.

Thought about this the other day: One luxury modern players don't have is the chance to be downright revolutionary when it comes to transcending their nominal positions. Whereas this – being a positional trailblazer of some kind or another – is a trait shared by many old school greats: It's part of the reason why they're remembered – not the only reason, obviously, but part of it. They stood out in the often rigid systems of old – which is nice. But standing out in a rigid system is in one sense much easier than doing so in a fluid, modern system.

Which is just one thing to consider when one judges historically great players.

Another consideration (and something people should always be aware of) is that a certain type of "praise piece" for old school players is very much driven by a desire to give a potentially overlooked player his due: It isn't scientific by any stretch, in other words - closer to eulogy than anything else, really. It may serve as a good starting point for further research - but should never be treated as gospel.

 

[Moby]

One luxury modern players don't have is the chance to be downright revolutionary when it comes to transcending their nominal positions. Whereas this – being a positional trailblazer of some kind or another – is a trait shared by many old school greats: It's part of the reason why they're remembered – not the only reason, obviously, but part of it. They stood out in the often rigid systems of old – which is nice. But standing out in a rigid system is in one sense much easier than doing so in a fluid, modern system.

That's a great point. It is 'easier' to be a revolutionary when the sport was still very much growing and developing than it would be after decades of every method and tactic being tried and tested. As much as that contributes to ones greatness, in a hypothetical match up involving players across generation, should that be a big advantage on the pitch for the said player?

Another consideration (and something people should always be aware of) is that a certain type of "praise piece" for old school players is very much driven by a desire to give a potentially overlooked player his due: It isn't scientific by any stretch, in other words - closer to eulogy than anything else, really. It may serve as a good starting point for further research - but should never be treated as gospel.

Absolutely. I was thinking more about the match-ups where there are bound to individual battles and while such compliments and congratulations are great while presenting an obscure player in a rather dramatic manner, but during a game it is important to look at BOTH strengths and weaknesses, and the latter are rarely pointed out of the classic players.

 

[Gio]

Leandro

@mazhar13

 

[Ecstatic]

@Marty1968 @RedTiger

 

[harms]

Skizzo/Pat 1. Ronaldo (BRA) 2. L. Junior (BRA) 3. Joya (PER) 4. Bochini (ARG) 5. D. Pereyra (URU) 6. R. Pavoni (URU) 7. J. Altafini (BRA) 8. Rattin (ARG) 9. P. Forlan (URU)

Enigma/Joga 1. M.Garrincha (BRA) 2. J.Zanetti (ARG) 3. D.Godin (URU) 4. Zito (BRA) 5. Ruben Sosa (URU) 6. J. Veron (ARG) 7. M.Kempes (ARG) 8. A. Ancheta (URU) 9. Branco (BRA)

oneniltothearsenal 1. Zico (BRA) 2. Domingos Da Guia (BRA) 3. Socrates (BRA) 4. Leonel Sánchez (CHI) 5. Eyzaguirre (CHI) 6. Careca (BRA) 7. R. Marcos (CHI) 8. Júlio César da Silva (BRA) 9. Marinho Chagas (BRA)

Tuppet 1. Romario (BRA) 2. L. Monti (ARG) 3. V. Andrade (URU) 4. Perfumo (ARG) 5. Hector Scarone (URU) 6. Roberto Matosas (URU) 7. Deco (BRA) 8. A. Sastre (ARG) 9. O. Caetano (URU)

Aldo 1. D. Passarella (ARG) 2. R. Carlos (BRA) 3. E. Francescoli (URU) 4. O. Ruggeri (ARG) 5. J. Mascherano (ARG) 6. Leônidas Da Silva (BRA) 7. F. Arce (PAR) 8. A. Di María (ARG) 9. W. Martínez (URU)

EAP/Sjor 1. Djalma (BRA) 2. O Varela (URU) 3. Neymar (BRA) 4. I Cordoba (COL) 5. P Rocha (URU) 6. Tostao (BRA) 7. Jair da Costa (BRA) 8. A Angelilo (ARG) 9. Hugo de Leon (URU)

Physio 1. H. Chumpitaz (PER) 2. T. Cubillas (PER) 3. C. Valderrama (COL) 4. Julinho (BRA) 5. G. Delgado (PER) 6. D. Simeone (ARG) 7. E. Cambiasso (ARG) 8. L. Artime (ARG) 9. Canhoteiro (BRA)

Gio 1. Ronaldinho (BRA) 2. Nasazzi (URU) 3. Erico (PAR) 4. Zizinho (BRA) 5. Pedernera (ARG) 6. Mauro Silva (BRA) 7. Gambetta (URU) 8. Bellini (BRA) 9. José
Leandro Ferreira (BRA)

Maz/Mar/R 1. Didi (BRA) 2. Hugo Sanchez (MEX) 3. Marzolini (ARG) 4. Néstor Gonçalves (URU) 5. C. Gamarra (PAR) 6. Ghiggia (URU) 7. Zagallo (BRA) 8. Mauro Ramos (BRA) 9.

MounchesterUtd 1. Chilavert (CHI) 2. Rivelino (BRA) 3. Vidal (CHI) 4. Kaka (BRA) 5. W. Samuel (ARG) 6. Zamorano (CHI) 7. José Macia Pepe (BRA) 8. A. Gallego (ARG) 9.

DavidG 1. Cafu (BRA)2. Rivaldo ( BRA) 3. T. Silva ( BRA) 4. Aldair ( BRA) 5. Clodoaldo ( BRA) 6. Julio Cesar Romero ( PAR) 7. Michele Andreolo ( URU) 8. Radamel Falcao ( COL) 9.

Raees 1. P.R. Falcao (BRA) 2. Jairzinho (BRA) 3. J.M. Moreno (ARG) 4. P. Montero (URU) 5. R. Ayala (ARG) 6. A.Recoba (URU) 7. Orsi (ARG) 8. Pedro Petrone (URU) 9.

Boris 1. Schiaffino (URU) 2. J.L. Andrade (URU) 3. Gerson (BRA) 4. A. Spencer (ECU) 5. J. Melendez (PER) 6. Nestor Rossi (ARG) 7. F. Loustau (ARG) 8. Jorginho (BRA) 9.

Mciahel Goodman 1. C. Alberto (BRA) 2. G. Batistuta (ARG) 3. Lucio (BRA) 4. Dunga (BRA) 5. O. Ardilles (ARG) 6. Riquelme (ARG) 7. Crespo (ARG) 8. OPEN 9.

Jayvin 1. Redondo (ARG) 2. L. Suarez (URU) 3. Sivori (ARG) 4. Cueto (PER) 5. R. Marquez (MEX) 6. Maicon (BRA) 7. J. Velasquez (PER) 8. Tarantini (ARG) 9.

P-Nut/Downcast 1. N. Santos (BRA) 2. J.E. Santamaría (URU) 3. Dani Alves (BRA) 4. Alexis Sánchez (CHI) 5. Cerezo (BRA) 6. Luis Edm. Pereira (BRA) 7. D. Forlan (URU) 8. A.Quintano (CHI) 9.

 

[Gio]

Absolutely looking forward to reading about a lot of these players but I'll have to say, I'm a bit wary about the immense hyperbole that might be carried along with that, specially a few of these older names who by most accounts seem to come across as 3-4 players rolled into one who never made an error on the pitch. I hope that there's some sort of balance in evaluation between the modern and older players where usually the former get criticised for every little error due to us watching them day in day out or there being loads of footage as opposed to those who have a couple of articles telling us about their entire careers, etc.

Aye, I think it was the British/Irish and the Euros drafts where loads of pre-war legends were often described as a super-human combo of Stam and Cristiano Ronaldo. It's a turn-off when you don't get a feel for the type of player because even the most complete players of this generation for instance (e.g. Zanetti, Thiago Silva) still had specific qualities which stood out.

That's a very good point, like a (e.g.) Di Maria level player from the sixties is probably going to be higher rated than current day Di Maria in this, I'd probably even do it myself sometimes, it's hard to know how to give a fairer judgement when comparing eras.
"

It's difficult. If anything the lack of footage tends to work against many of the earlier stars - kudos to yourself for gambling on a few of those who lack any video credentials.

 

[harms]

Aye, I think it was the British/Irish and the Euros drafts where loads of pre-war legends were often described as a super-human combo of Stam and Cristiano Ronaldo. It's a turn-off when you don't get a feel for the type of player because even the most complete players of this generation for instance (e.g. Zanetti, Thiago Silva) still had specific qualities which stood out.

Yeah. I used Sarosi only as a CF iirc as I thought that his skillset (from what I've read) is suited to this role the best but I don't know what to think when I see him in midfield of defence. He was clearly world class there too but he is a completely unknown quality there. The only exception are strikers - you sometimes can watch their goals even from the 30's-40's or you get a better picture of them just by reading about their famous goals. No such information about midfielders or defenders, sadly

Same goes for the 10-15 superheroes from the pre-footage era, some of whom are going to take part in this draft

 

[Tuppet]

On the hyping of older players I agree with the general sentiment but just to balance I would say there's also a flip side of the golden oldies argument, that somehow their achievements were easier and inferior. I think being revolutionary in any field should definitely count in a match up. And even if its a cross generational hypothetical game, the ability and skill of a player should be judged by his superiority around his peers rather than against 21st century players. There are kids in Brazil probably who can pull off a better Elastico than Rivelino or overhead kick than Leonidas, but the originality, daring and creativity to think and then execute these moves should count for something. Same goes with tactical, positional innovations.

The other thing is to not to demean the accolades of older players. If Meazza for example was star of two world cup winning squads than saying that those world cups were not as good as others is neither here nor there. So while I agree that the 'articles' which are written like love letters from some random forum posters should be taken with pinch of salt but at the same time the accolades, the stats and the well written articles from respected journalists could be taken on face value where we don't have the video proof.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Thiago Silva vs Matosas. Bring it on.

 

[Moby]

On the hyping of older players I agree with the general sentiment but just to balance I would say there's also a flip side of the golden oldies argument, that somehow their achievements were easier and inferior. I think being revolutionary in any field should definitely count in a match up. And even if its a cross generational hypothetical game, the ability and skill of a player should be judged by his superiority around his peers rather than against 21st century players. There are kids in Brazil probably who can pull off a better Elastico than Rivelino or overhead kick than Leonidas, but the originality, daring and creativity to think and then execute these moves should count for something. Same goes with tactical, positional innovations.

The other thing is to not to demean the accolades of older players. If Meazza for example was star of two world cup winning squads than saying that those world cups were not as good as others is neither here nor there. So while I agree that the 'articles' which are written like love letters from some random forum posters should be taken with pinch of salt but at the same time the accolades, the stats and the well written articles from respected journalists could be taken on face value where we don't have the video proof.

More than questioning the quality or achievements, it is more about having a better idea about their strengths AND weaknesses. If someone played in the 1920s and is still being respected in 2016 even if in a draft game, he must have done something right, of course. The thing is a lot of articles and write ups only revolve around their 'greatness' and achievements, which no one is questioning. In a match up and given how detailed the tactical discussions are these days with the smallest of errors being criticised heavily, it is more relevant to talk about their skillsets and what they were great it, specifically. In your example, Meazza was an undoubted legend of his time and is of the sport, a star of WC winning teams among others, we get it. But that is neither here not there, unless we actually talk about what made him great and how much of that would affect a particular match up. Someone who made his name in the game for being an amazing target striker with aerial prowess for example and scored a ton of goals at all levels thanks to those qualities, if he's played in a team that requires other skills and not exactly what made him great, then in normal circumstances that would termed as a good enough argument against the said player. But if we simply stop at - oh look he scored a few hundred goals and no matter what he will score here - that is simply counter productive to the idea.

Moreover, I'm highly skeptical of players who are presented as 'masters of all trades'. Sarosi is a great example for that, there would definitely be reasons for someone being called the things he gets called but I'd say if someone like Ruud Gullit or Pavel Nedved played in that era they would probably get a similar recognition. As you say, it is important how to interpret such stories rather than take it as the word of gospel. Someone like Gullit actually played from defense to midfield and attack without looking a weakness but we know the reaction he will get if you start him as a defensive midfielder, for example. It is important to 'define' a player, his strengths, best positions and what made them great. Only in the last draft Passarella was downmarked by a lot of people because he was played in a pure defensive role and asked to curb his attacking game, as that was what 'made him great' and not just his defensive ability. Similarly, we get it that a lot of players just like in any era were capable of performing an array of roles and were multi-skilled, but in a match up if modern players are downmarked for using them anywhere outside their exact comfort zone, the same should apply to all. Countless players have articles calling them stalwards in any thing possible to do on the pitch, which really has to be set aside and one must discuss a player in a more specific and realistic manner.

 

[Tuppet]

Totally agree with that @Aldo , The onus is definitely on the manager to show why a player would work in their tactics, what specific qualities they are looking from the player and some sort of credible source that the said player possessed those qualities.

My remark was basically just that for many players it won't be possible to show a video clip of them doing a particular skill (even though its not really that useful for even fairly new players as well) and at that point we either have to stop picking those players or take the word of articles or quotes from other players etc, combined with stats and medals.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

On the hyping of older players I agree with the general sentiment but just to balance I would say there's also a flip side of the golden oldies argument, that somehow their achievements were easier and inferior. I think being revolutionary in any field should definitely count in a match up. And even if its a cross generational hypothetical game, the ability and skill of a player should be judged by his superiority around his peers rather than against 21st century players. There are kids in Brazil probably who can pull off a better Elastico than Rivelino or overhead kick than Leonidas, but the originality, daring and creativity to think and then execute these moves should count for something. Same goes with tactical, positional innovations.

The other thing is to not to demean the accolades of older players. If Meazza for example was star of two world cup winning squads than saying that those world cups were not as good as others is neither here nor there. So while I agree that the 'articles' which are written like love letters from some random forum posters should be taken with pinch of salt but at the same time the accolades, the stats and the well written articles from respected journalists could be taken on face value where we don't have the video proof.

For me it's simply a matter of aiming for a balanced view.

General greatness is usually undeniable - while claiming that one of these pre-footage greats would be a grand fit in a specific role, in a particular setup, is more problematic.

It all depends on how you argue, though - and what sort of evidence you present to back up your claims.

There are two basic problems with these players, as I see it:

1) There's a lack of details pertaining to their traits and playing style. Compared to what we know about later players, the info on the old timers is (too) often (too) general. It makes no difference if the question is "is he an all-time great or not?", but it does make a difference if the question is "how well would he actually fit in here, in this particular setup?".

2. The player's weaknesses are rarely mentioned in the relevant sources (even the good ones). This is obviously a pretty significant problem, since it makes it much harder to get close to a realistic picture of what he was actually like, as a flesh-and-blood player. With a post-footage player, even an undeniable GOAT does have his weaknesses (we know his limitations, because we've seen him play over 90 minutes).

However, like I said above, I think most of us are well aware of this - and that we factor it in, as best we can, when looking at match-ups and XIs. As for voters, as such, it's impossible to say whether sporting a legend with little or no footage is detrimental - or the very opposite. Some like old school legends - others think they're a bit suspect. And others again simply ignore players they don't know (whether they're pre-footage or modern). So, that part of it pretty much evens out, I suspect.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

But that is neither here not there, unless we actually talk about what made him great and how much of that would affect a particular match up. Someone who made his name in the game for being an amazing target striker with aerial prowess for example and scored a ton of goals at all levels thanks to those qualities, if he's played in a team that requires other skills and not exactly what made him great, then in normal circumstances that would termed as a good enough argument against the said player.

Doesn't work in defence, where the full back and Half back discussions happen. Also without video, it'd be near impossible to pull out stats to make an argument. Purely opinion based judgement imo. Can't be helped.

 

[Moby]

Doesn't work in defence, where the full back and Half back discussions happen. Also without video, it'd be near impossible to pull out stats to make an argument. Purely opinion based judgement imo. Can't be helped.

The way I see it either you make a case of your player not only being great but great in the role you have given him with the same degree of criticism that modern players would receive in the same situation, or you simply give the same degree of freedom to modern players as well of being used outside their comfort zone based on being a 'great attacker who scored 5 goals in WC xxxx'. There has to be consistency.
In a more strict manner - the fact you cannot back up the role you gave a player with strong evidence should count against your team and his impact on the match, irrespective of how many love letters he received from the journalists of his time. Again, it is about consistency. 'Being great' cannot be a fair argument for one player while for someone else you demand incredible amount of evidence else hold it against the manager for 'misusing' the player.

 

[P-Nut]

Also is definitely onto something here.

Let's take Paul scholes for example. In years to come (probably a few about now) he'll be written about as a player that scored 20 goals a season whilst dictating the play and running the game with his 1-2s and excellent passing range. In reality he had a few different phases of his career where he excelled at different things. Using the standard 3 year peak it wouldn't be possible to have Paul scholes who could perform all the roles. When looking at old players there 3 year peak is impossible to define and so we have no idea if they evolved as a player or if they really did possess all the skills at the same time.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

The way I see it either you make a case of your player not only being great but great in the role you have given him with the same degree of criticism that modern players would receive in the same situation, or you simply give the same degree of freedom to modern players as well of being used outside their comfort zone based on being a 'great attacker who scored 5 goals in WC xxxx'. There has to be consistency.
In a more strict manner - the fact you cannot back up the role you gave a player with strong evidence should count against your team and his impact on the match, irrespective of how many love letters he received from the journalists of his time. Again, it is about consistency. 'Being great' cannot be a fair argument for one player while for someone else you demand incredible amount of evidence else hold it against the manager for 'misusing' the player.

It's just a question of evidence. For an forward you get goals. For a midfielder you take creativity or work rate. For a defender? You can claim to be fast / strong / good in air, but that's it. There's a healthy amount of selling involved that's difficult to substantiate with facts and stats. It's up to managers selling the player. Quite hard to get weakness as strength for a non video player imo. It's not something that can be helped, but as long as the manager presents a good case argument highlighting the player, it'd serve the draft purpose, I'd assume.

 

[mazhar13]

Jorge Burruchaga

Someone update the list for me. I'm currently on mobile.

 

[Tuppet]

Skizzo/Pat 1. Ronaldo (BRA) 2. L. Junior (BRA) 3. Joya (PER) 4. Bochini (ARG) 5. D. Pereyra (URU) 6. R. Pavoni (URU) 7. J. Altafini (BRA) 8. Rattin (ARG) 9. P. Forlan (URU)

Enigma/Joga 1. M.Garrincha (BRA) 2. J.Zanetti (ARG) 3. D.Godin (URU) 4. Zito (BRA) 5. Ruben Sosa (URU) 6. J. Veron (ARG) 7. M.Kempes (ARG) 8. A. Ancheta (URU) 9. Branco (BRA)

oneniltothearsenal 1. Zico (BRA) 2. Domingos Da Guia (BRA) 3. Socrates (BRA) 4. Leonel Sánchez (CHI) 5. Eyzaguirre (CHI) 6. Careca (BRA) 7. R. Marcos (CHI) 8. Júlio César da Silva (BRA) 9. Marinho Chagas (BRA)

Tuppet 1. Romario (BRA) 2. L. Monti (ARG) 3. V. Andrade (URU) 4. Perfumo (ARG) 5. Hector Scarone (URU) 6. Roberto Matosas (URU) 7. Deco (BRA) 8. A. Sastre (ARG) 9. O. Caetano (URU)

Aldo 1. D. Passarella (ARG) 2. R. Carlos (BRA) 3. E. Francescoli (URU) 4. O. Ruggeri (ARG) 5. J. Mascherano (ARG) 6. Leônidas Da Silva (BRA) 7. F. Arce (PAR) 8. A. Di María (ARG) 9. W. Martínez (URU)

EAP/Sjor 1. Djalma (BRA) 2. O Varela (URU) 3. Neymar (BRA) 4. I Cordoba (COL) 5. P Rocha (URU) 6. Tostao (BRA) 7. Jair da Costa (BRA) 8. A Angelilo (ARG) 9. Hugo de Leon (URU)

Physio 1. H. Chumpitaz (PER) 2. T. Cubillas (PER) 3. C. Valderrama (COL) 4. Julinho (BRA) 5. G. Delgado (PER) 6. D. Simeone (ARG) 7. E. Cambiasso (ARG) 8. L. Artime (ARG) 9. Canhoteiro (BRA)

Gio 1. Ronaldinho (BRA) 2. Nasazzi (URU) 3. Erico (PAR) 4. Zizinho (BRA) 5. Pedernera (ARG) 6. Mauro Silva (BRA) 7. Gambetta (URU) 8. Bellini (BRA) 9. José Leandro Ferreira (BRA)

Maz/Mar/R 1. Didi (BRA) 2. Hugo Sanchez (MEX) 3. Marzolini (ARG) 4. Néstor Gonçalves (URU) 5. C. Gamarra (PAR) 6. Ghiggia (URU) 7. Zagallo (BRA) 8. Mauro Ramos (BRA) 9. Jorge Burruchaga (ARG)

MounchesterUtd 1. Chilavert (CHI) 2. Rivelino (BRA) 3. Vidal (CHI) 4. Kaka (BRA) 5. W. Samuel (ARG) 6. Zamorano (CHI) 7. José Macia Pepe (BRA) 8. A. Gallego (ARG) 9.

DavidG 1. Cafu (BRA)2. Rivaldo ( BRA) 3. T. Silva ( BRA) 4. Aldair ( BRA) 5. Clodoaldo ( BRA) 6. Julio Cesar Romero ( PAR) 7. Michele Andreolo ( URU) 8. Radamel Falcao ( COL) 9.

Raees 1. P.R. Falcao (BRA) 2. Jairzinho (BRA) 3. J.M. Moreno (ARG) 4. P. Montero (URU) 5. R. Ayala (ARG) 6. A.Recoba (URU) 7. Orsi (ARG) 8. Pedro Petrone (URU) 9.

Boris 1. Schiaffino (URU) 2. J.L. Andrade (URU) 3. Gerson (BRA) 4. A. Spencer (ECU) 5. J. Melendez (PER) 6. Nestor Rossi (ARG) 7. F. Loustau (ARG) 8. Jorginho (BRA) 9.

Mciahel Goodman 1. C. Alberto (BRA) 2. G. Batistuta (ARG) 3. Lucio (BRA) 4. Dunga (BRA) 5. O. Ardilles (ARG) 6. Riquelme (ARG) 7. Crespo (ARG) 8. OPEN 9.

Jayvin 1. Redondo (ARG) 2. L. Suarez (URU) 3. Sivori (ARG) 4. Cueto (PER) 5. R. Marquez (MEX) 6. Maicon (BRA) 7. J. Velasquez (PER) 8. Tarantini (ARG) 9.

P-Nut/Downcast 1. N. Santos (BRA) 2. J.E. Santamaría (URU) 3. Dani Alves (BRA) 4. Alexis Sánchez (CHI) 5. Cerezo (BRA) 6. Luis Edm. Pereira (BRA) 7. D. Forlan (URU) 8. A.Quintano (CHI) 9.

@MounchesterUtd

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

This draft got me thinking a little more about how times change. Today, the Ballon d'Or is seen as almost the definitive last word on the rankings of elite players every year at least in any sort of official capacity since obviously everyone has opinions. But its still just one group from France Football. In the 1980s and before a lot of other magazines were held in equal regard as far as their journalist polling for great players and tournament ratings. El Grafico from Argentina, Guerin Sportivo from Italy, Kicker from Germany and others were generally just as respected as France Football. Then you also had a lot of newspapers from every country doing their own journal polls for player of the year.

 

[MounchesterUtd]

 

[MounchesterUtd]

Skizzo/Pat 1. Ronaldo (BRA) 2. L. Junior (BRA) 3. Joya (PER) 4. Bochini (ARG) 5. D. Pereyra (URU) 6. R. Pavoni (URU) 7. J. Altafini (BRA) 8. Rattin (ARG) 9. P. Forlan (URU)

Enigma/Joga 1. M.Garrincha (BRA) 2. J.Zanetti (ARG) 3. D.Godin (URU) 4. Zito (BRA) 5. Ruben Sosa (URU) 6. J. Veron (ARG) 7. M.Kempes (ARG) 8. A. Ancheta (URU) 9. Branco (BRA)

oneniltothearsenal 1. Zico (BRA) 2. Domingos Da Guia (BRA) 3. Socrates (BRA) 4. Leonel Sánchez (CHI) 5. Eyzaguirre (CHI) 6. Careca (BRA) 7. R. Marcos (CHI) 8. Júlio César da Silva (BRA) 9. Marinho Chagas (BRA)

Tuppet 1. Romario (BRA) 2. L. Monti (ARG) 3. V. Andrade (URU) 4. Perfumo (ARG) 5. Hector Scarone (URU) 6. Roberto Matosas (URU) 7. Deco (BRA) 8. A. Sastre (ARG) 9. O. Caetano (URU)

Aldo 1. D. Passarella (ARG) 2. R. Carlos (BRA) 3. E. Francescoli (URU) 4. O. Ruggeri (ARG) 5. J. Mascherano (ARG) 6. Leônidas Da Silva (BRA) 7. F. Arce (PAR) 8. A. Di María (ARG) 9. W. Martínez (URU)

EAP/Sjor 1. Djalma (BRA) 2. O Varela (URU) 3. Neymar (BRA) 4. I Cordoba (COL) 5. P Rocha (URU) 6. Tostao (BRA) 7. Jair da Costa (BRA) 8. A Angelilo (ARG) 9. Hugo de Leon (URU)

Physio 1. H. Chumpitaz (PER) 2. T. Cubillas (PER) 3. C. Valderrama (COL) 4. Julinho (BRA) 5. G. Delgado (PER) 6. D. Simeone (ARG) 7. E. Cambiasso (ARG) 8. L. Artime (ARG) 9. Canhoteiro (BRA)

Gio 1. Ronaldinho (BRA) 2. Nasazzi (URU) 3. Erico (PAR) 4. Zizinho (BRA) 5. Pedernera (ARG) 6. Mauro Silva (BRA) 7. Gambetta (URU) 8. Bellini (BRA) 9. José Leandro Ferreira (BRA)

Maz/Mar/R 1. Didi (BRA) 2. Hugo Sanchez (MEX) 3. Marzolini (ARG) 4. Néstor Gonçalves (URU) 5. C. Gamarra (PAR) 6. Ghiggia (URU) 7. Zagallo (BRA) 8. Mauro Ramos (BRA) 9. Jorge Burruchaga (ARG)

MounchesterUtd 1. Chilavert (PAR) 2. Rivelino (BRA) 3. Vidal (CHI) 4. Kaka (BRA) 5. W. Samuel (ARG) 6. Zamorano (CHI) 7. José Macia Pepe (BRA) 8. A. Gallego (ARG) 9. Marcelo (BRA)

DavidG 1. Cafu (BRA)2. Rivaldo ( BRA) 3. T. Silva ( BRA) 4. Aldair ( BRA) 5. Clodoaldo ( BRA) 6. Julio Cesar Romero ( PAR) 7. Michele Andreolo ( URU) 8. Radamel Falcao ( COL) 9.

Raees 1. P.R. Falcao (BRA) 2. Jairzinho (BRA) 3. J.M. Moreno (ARG) 4. P. Montero (URU) 5. R. Ayala (ARG) 6. A.Recoba (URU) 7. Orsi (ARG) 8. Pedro Petrone (URU) 9.

Boris 1. Schiaffino (URU) 2. J.L. Andrade (URU) 3. Gerson (BRA) 4. A. Spencer (ECU) 5. J. Melendez (PER) 6. Nestor Rossi (ARG) 7. F. Loustau (ARG) 8. Jorginho (BRA) 9.

Mciahel Goodman 1. C. Alberto (BRA) 2. G. Batistuta (ARG) 3. Lucio (BRA) 4. Dunga (BRA) 5. O. Ardilles (ARG) 6. Riquelme (ARG) 7. Crespo (ARG) 8. OPEN 9.

Jayvin 1. Redondo (ARG) 2. L. Suarez (URU) 3. Sivori (ARG) 4. Cueto (PER) 5. R. Marquez (MEX) 6. Maicon (BRA) 7. J. Velasquez (PER) 8. Tarantini (ARG) 9.

P-Nut/Downcast 1. N. Santos (BRA) 2. J.E. Santamaría (URU) 3. Dani Alves (BRA) 4. Alexis Sánchez (CHI) 5. Cerezo (BRA) 6. Luis Edm. Pereira (BRA) 7. D. Forlan (URU) 8. A.Quintano (CHI) 9.

@DavidG

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Skizzo/Pat 1. Ronaldo (BRA) 2. L. Junior (BRA) 3. Joya (PER) 4. Bochini (ARG) 5. D. Pereyra (URU) 6. R. Pavoni (URU) 7. J. Altafini (BRA) 8. Rattin (ARG) 9. P. Forlan (URU)

Enigma/Joga 1. M.Garrincha (BRA) 2. J.Zanetti (ARG) 3. D.Godin (URU) 4. Zito (BRA) 5. Ruben Sosa (URU) 6. J. Veron (ARG) 7. M.Kempes (ARG) 8. A. Ancheta (URU) 9. Branco (BRA)

oneniltothearsenal 1. Zico (BRA) 2. Domingos Da Guia (BRA) 3. Socrates (BRA) 4. Leonel Sánchez (CHI) 5. Eyzaguirre (CHI) 6. Careca (BRA) 7. R. Marcos (CHI) 8. Júlio César da Silva (BRA) 9. Marinho Chagas (BRA)

Tuppet 1. Romario (BRA) 2. L. Monti (ARG) 3. V. Andrade (URU) 4. Perfumo (ARG) 5. Hector Scarone (URU) 6. Roberto Matosas (URU) 7. Deco (BRA) 8. A. Sastre (ARG) 9. O. Caetano (URU)

Aldo 1. D. Passarella (ARG) 2. R. Carlos (BRA) 3. E. Francescoli (URU) 4. O. Ruggeri (ARG) 5. J. Mascherano (ARG) 6. Leônidas Da Silva (BRA) 7. F. Arce (PAR) 8. A. Di María (ARG) 9. W. Martínez (URU)

EAP/Sjor 1. Djalma (BRA) 2. O Varela (URU) 3. Neymar (BRA) 4. I Cordoba (COL) 5. P Rocha (URU) 6. Tostao (BRA) 7. Jair da Costa (BRA) 8. A Angelilo (ARG) 9. Hugo de Leon (URU)

Physio 1. H. Chumpitaz (PER) 2. T. Cubillas (PER) 3. C. Valderrama (COL) 4. Julinho (BRA) 5. G. Delgado (PER) 6. D. Simeone (ARG) 7. E. Cambiasso (ARG) 8. L. Artime (ARG) 9. Canhoteiro (BRA)

Gio 1. Ronaldinho (BRA) 2. Nasazzi (URU) 3. Erico (PAR) 4. Zizinho (BRA) 5. Pedernera (ARG) 6. Mauro Silva (BRA) 7. Gambetta (URU) 8. Bellini (BRA) 9. José Leandro Ferreira (BRA)

Maz/Mar/R 1. Didi (BRA) 2. Hugo Sanchez (MEX) 3. Marzolini (ARG) 4. Néstor Gonçalves (URU) 5. C. Gamarra (PAR) 6. Ghiggia (URU) 7. Zagallo (BRA) 8. Mauro Ramos (BRA) 9. Jorge Burruchaga (ARG)

MounchesterUtd 1. Chilavert (PAR) 2. Rivelino (BRA) 3. Vidal (CHI) 4. Kaka (BRA) 5. W. Samuel (ARG) 6. Zamorano (CHI) 7. José Macia Pepe (BRA) 8. A. Gallego (ARG) 9. Marcelo (BRA)

DavidG 1. Cafu (BRA)2. Rivaldo ( BRA) 3. T. Silva ( BRA) 4. Aldair ( BRA) 5. Clodoaldo ( BRA) 6. Julio Cesar Romero ( PAR) 7. Michele Andreolo ( URU) 8. Radamel Falcao ( COL) 9. Juan Pablo sorin (ARG)

Raees 1. P.R. Falcao (BRA) 2. Jairzinho (BRA) 3. J.M. Moreno (ARG) 4. P. Montero (URU) 5. R. Ayala (ARG) 6. A.Recoba (URU) 7. Orsi (ARG) 8. Pedro Petrone (URU) 9.

Boris 1. Schiaffino (URU) 2. J.L. Andrade (URU) 3. Gerson (BRA) 4. A. Spencer (ECU) 5. J. Melendez (PER) 6. Nestor Rossi (ARG) 7. F. Loustau (ARG) 8. Jorginho (BRA) 9.

Mciahel Goodman 1. C. Alberto (BRA) 2. G. Batistuta (ARG) 3. Lucio (BRA) 4. Dunga (BRA) 5. O. Ardilles (ARG) 6. Riquelme (ARG) 7. Crespo (ARG) 8. OPEN 9.

Jayvin 1. Redondo (ARG) 2. L. Suarez (URU) 3. Sivori (ARG) 4. Cueto (PER) 5. R. Marquez (MEX) 6. Maicon (BRA) 7. J. Velasquez (PER) 8. Tarantini (ARG) 9.

P-Nut/Downcast 1. N. Santos (BRA) 2. J.E. Santamaría (URU) 3. Dani Alves (BRA) 4. Alexis Sánchez (CHI) 5. Cerezo (BRA) 6. Luis Edm. Pereira (BRA) 7. D. Forlan (URU) 8. A.Quintano (CHI) 9.

@Raees

 

[Ecstatic]

@DavidG Well done

 

[Ecstatic]

The debate old-school players vs modern players is interesting.

- By definition, the available information is limited for old-school players, especially in English if the latters come from a non-English speaking country.

- The information is generally one-sided. I think old-school journalists/pundits were probably more reverential or less demanding.

- Nowadays, the level is much more homogeneous. For example, you would have France 11-0 Luxembourg 30 years ago while it's hard now for France to score more than 2 goals against them. In 2010, we got France 2-0 Luxembourg in 2010 (official game!). The gap between a superior player & an average one is also much more smaller nowadays as a result of the 'globalization of football'

The case of De Vecchi is interesting. He has a fantastic reputation and he is considered as one of the greatest LB by our Italian friends who love superlatives like "Bellisima" 'Moltissimo" or "Migliore".

Let's look at his Honours: 3 titles won (Scudetti: 1914–15, 1922–23, 1923–24) & 42 caps (0 goal but 42 caps is high number for a pre-war player)

At the international level, let's analyse his performances:

Football at the 1912 Summer Olympics he played one match in the main tournament as well as two matches in the consolation tournament at the age of 16

Football at the 1920 Summer Olympics at the age of 24 - Career Peak ? - Italy lost against France in the QF

Starting 11: Italy/Egypt
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...0/matches/round=197010/match=32276/index.html

Starting11: Loss of Italy (1-3) against France
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...0/matches/round=197011/match=32281/index.html

On the bench: Italy vs Norway
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...0/matches/round=197017/match=32283/index.html

Starting11: Loss of Italy
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...0/matches/round=197018/match=32289/index.html

Football at the 1924 Summer Olympics at the age of 28

On the bench: Italy/ Spain

http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...4/matches/round=197022/match=32291/index.html

Starting 11: Italy/ Luxembourg

http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...4/matches/round=197023/match=32301/index.html

On the bench:

http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...4/matches/round=197024/match=32308/index.html

Spoiler: FIFA Tournaments played by De Vecchu

He seems to be considered as "One of the Greatest LB of All-Time" but we are not in a position to say whether it makes sense or not.

 

[Raees]

I'll go with Victor Benitez of Peru. DM for the 1963 European cup winning side for AC Milan

 

[Moby]

Nooo