I agree, but both midfields are there to be got at. Zico and Socrates could potentially get joy as well.
The Americas Draft, SF2 onenil vs Maz/Mar/R
- Thread starter Chesterlestreet
- Start date
Sure, it's no big deal - but like I said, we should aim to keep things simple. Having multiple managers on the same side is practically standard these days, so for future drafts we should have a clear practice as far as this is concerned.
It's untidy to have a discrepancy between the face value score and the true score. Needless complication, in my opinion.
I only mention the World Cup because that's the only footage that exists of Ghiggia playing. Also, I don't have the resources nor the language skills at my disposal to show how good he was, but from what I saw/read of him, he really was a great winger and not your typical run-of-the-mill one-trick pony a la Zaha or Lennon.
You want to look at peak, right? He won 2 Uruguayan championships with Penarol when Nacional were also very strong. He went to Roma and was so good there that he went into the Roma Hall of Fame. Anything else? Sorry, that's all I can bring up in this limited time.
And Marinho won Best in position at left back for two years in a row so its massive exaggeration here to make all these claims about Ghiggia have all this joy.
Yes - I'd say that's part of it. Has worked like that for me, at least.
Another part of it is to get the focus away from the sheer votes and unto the discussion. It shouldn't matter all that much how many people voted for you - what you should focus on is to present your case and respond to what people have to say in the thread. And then it's que sera sera, as the old song says.
Obviously, though, managers will want to vote to see the score - that's human nature, I suppose. So, we have to limit the presence of this aspect (which adds nothing whatsoever of interest for the neutrals) in one way or another.
IMO no manager should be allowed to vote and only ONE prior designated manager should be allowed to comment in a match thread the entire match.
I wouldn't even have voted for myself this match if the opposing teams 3rd manager didn't chime in with a timely "Why isn't Marty and Maz team winning?" conveniently leaving out the fact he was the other assistant manager of that team!
That had two effects. First it let me know the score when I didn't really want to know and second its a bit weak imo to make that post and leave out your own name as assistant manager.
I don't see an issue with both managers voting to see the score, as long as votes are visible tbh. It's easy to subtract the votes later after all is said and done. IMO it has no effect towards the discussions or whatever as long as the scores are not announced.
It's always interesting to see how the game goes for a manager, whether his theme and concept has been understood and how his changes to the line up are appreciated. In the current format especially it's a non issue as you have to vote to see the scores either way.
Are you for real? He destroyed their fullback in front of 200.000 of their own fans. He assisted the equaliser and scored the winner.
You can't get more factual than that.
Oh no sure, "Marinho Chagas can stop him" sound a lot more factual.
I just find the whole attack on Hugo Sanchez pretty weak and you keep banging on about this peno which instantly brings to mind the Lothar incident in 1990.
No agenda, if I had an agenda I would have turned your team into mince some time ago. In fact, have been keeping a lot to myself because I think it wouldn't be fair on you.
This game looked dead in the water so I chose to reply to some points which I find misplaced (one being Schubert not being able to replicate Leandro).
It's not like I came in and influenced it yesterday, just let it pan out and stepped in once it was pretty much over. Votes can't be switched and there are no votes going that could make a comeback possible.
Anyhow, I'll go back to not interfering with you drama queens.
I agree on the first point. Second point is more problematic - but it's clearly something we can discuss further.
I've said before that an assistant should - strictly speaking - be someone who aids you in the drafting process, not someone who shouts alongside you in the match thread.
The idea is - of course - that only one co-manager or AM should engage in the discussion at the same time. But there are some possible problems even with that. A management team may - obviously - load the thread with more posts than a single manager (who has to eat and sleep and keep his kids from burning the house down) is able to, regardless of whether they're literally posting at the same time or not.
We should discuss this further - no doubt.
@Chesterlestreet I don't see why it's so difficult to just let them vote and then discard the votes since they aren't visible anyway and thus shouldn't influence anyone.
The bolded bit is very naughty though. I've said from the outset we should keep mum about scorelines and who's winning or else the whole secrecy bit is pointless.
Sure thing, but the answer to that isn't asking Didí to sit back!
Yes - of course.
But this goes back to what we discussed earlier: Who's the main party in these drafts, as far as keeping the interest alive is concerned? The managers - who almost inevitably enter competitive mode - or the neutrals, whose main interest is football discussion and learning about (historically great or otherwise interesting) players and teams?
There has to be a balance there, obviously.
The managers should - as I said above - respond to the points made in the thread. They should gauge the response to their team and their tactical choices from that. Not from looking at who voted what.
You could argue that outlawing manager votes is a way to combat managers playing to the scan voters, and worrying more about winning a measly fantasy match than about putting a proper team together - because non-scan voters will presumably bother to post their criticism of the teams in the thread.
It ain't difficult (well...if the standard becomes four managers per team, it could be) - it's just untidy. The final score should reflect the outcome of the match.
It looks like 2-1 but it's actually a draw. Nobody likes that.
Regarding Ghiggia, I think he suffers the same fate as Kempes, Jairzinho and a host of other players do but to a larger extent - whereby their entire career and body of work gets reduced, rather unfairly at that, to their single breakout tournament (the WC usually) performance.
Fwiw, by all accounts he's had an excellent club career which was augmented by a great WC outing in 1950. Similar to Kempes for example who was regarded as a prodigy during his younger days iirc and is arguably the greatest player of Valencia ever - one of the bigger clubs in Spain.
Back on Ghiggia, he was a fine player for Penarol by all accounts and proved to be a hit at Roma when he went to Italy.
A nice article on him by Roma FC's official site, in their hall-of-fame section.
Alcides Ghiggia
“He was a humble winner and when he came up against a great team he was unstoppable.”
Giacomo Losi
On 16 July 1950, the day of the World Cup final, Brazilian newspaper O Mundo published a photo of the Brazil team with the headline, ‘Here are the world champions’. What ensued was one of the biggest shocks in footballing history as Uruguay went on to claim the trophy. The man who scored the decisive goal that day was none other than Alcides Ghiggia.
The right winger made it 2-1 with 11 minutes to play and a deafening silence fell on the Maracanà. Even the award ceremony was held in silence because the band that was supposed to play the national anthem of the winning team had 'disbanded' in shock.
Ghiggia had scored the ‘goal of the century’, acquiring instant legend status and forever writing his name into the history books, despite only ever playing 12 games for Uruguay.
AS Roma president Renato Sacerdoti announced that Ghiggia was joining the club at the Sistina Theatre on 31 May 1953.
Gabriele Tramontano recalled: “A few hours before then, I was told that one of the world's best players would be wearing the yellow and red of Roma the following season. The crowd could barely hold their breath, such was the expectation. One fan couldn't take it any more and interrupted Sacerdoti, shouting out: 'The name, tell us the name.'
“Sacerdoti, masterfully prolonging the suspense, replied: 'He has the same name as our prime minister, De Gasperi.'
“’Alcide' echoed back the crowd, while another voice yelled 'Palmiro' [Togliatti], the name of the opposition leader. Sacerdoti spoke over them all. 'It's Alcide Ghiggia, the Uruguayan World Cup winner.' Cue pandemonium.”
The world champion was bought for a fee of up to 40 million lira but what is known is that the match organised to present him at the Stadio Olimpico, against Charlton Athletic, earned AS Roma 15 million in takings. The fans were ecstatic to be able to welcome a true superstar to their club.
AS Roma's long-serving kitman Peppe - who remained at the club until the days of Carlo Ancelotti, Falcao and Rudi Voeller - explained that Ghiggia had a fixation with his boots and screw-on studs, always wanting them perfectly polished and gleaming. With those boots he had the world at his feet. He was a true football immortal.
http://www.asroma.com/en/club/hall-of-fame/ghiggia
This is a great vid of him, portraying him as a real trickster and an excellent crosser. which was posted some tome back in the reserves draft by @harms. Well worth the watch.
Fwiw, by all accounts he's had an excellent club career which was augmented by a great WC outing in 1950. Similar to Kempes for example who was regarded as a prodigy during his younger days iirc and is arguably the greatest player of Valencia ever - one of the bigger clubs in Spain.
Back on Ghiggia, he was a fine player for Penarol by all accounts and proved to be a hit at Roma when he went to Italy.
A nice article on him by Roma FC's official site, in their hall-of-fame section.
Alcides Ghiggia
“He was a humble winner and when he came up against a great team he was unstoppable.”
Giacomo Losi
On 16 July 1950, the day of the World Cup final, Brazilian newspaper O Mundo published a photo of the Brazil team with the headline, ‘Here are the world champions’. What ensued was one of the biggest shocks in footballing history as Uruguay went on to claim the trophy. The man who scored the decisive goal that day was none other than Alcides Ghiggia.
The right winger made it 2-1 with 11 minutes to play and a deafening silence fell on the Maracanà. Even the award ceremony was held in silence because the band that was supposed to play the national anthem of the winning team had 'disbanded' in shock.
Ghiggia had scored the ‘goal of the century’, acquiring instant legend status and forever writing his name into the history books, despite only ever playing 12 games for Uruguay.
AS Roma president Renato Sacerdoti announced that Ghiggia was joining the club at the Sistina Theatre on 31 May 1953.
Gabriele Tramontano recalled: “A few hours before then, I was told that one of the world's best players would be wearing the yellow and red of Roma the following season. The crowd could barely hold their breath, such was the expectation. One fan couldn't take it any more and interrupted Sacerdoti, shouting out: 'The name, tell us the name.'
“Sacerdoti, masterfully prolonging the suspense, replied: 'He has the same name as our prime minister, De Gasperi.'
“’Alcide' echoed back the crowd, while another voice yelled 'Palmiro' [Togliatti], the name of the opposition leader. Sacerdoti spoke over them all. 'It's Alcide Ghiggia, the Uruguayan World Cup winner.' Cue pandemonium.”
The world champion was bought for a fee of up to 40 million lira but what is known is that the match organised to present him at the Stadio Olimpico, against Charlton Athletic, earned AS Roma 15 million in takings. The fans were ecstatic to be able to welcome a true superstar to their club.
AS Roma's long-serving kitman Peppe - who remained at the club until the days of Carlo Ancelotti, Falcao and Rudi Voeller - explained that Ghiggia had a fixation with his boots and screw-on studs, always wanting them perfectly polished and gleaming. With those boots he had the world at his feet. He was a true football immortal.
http://www.asroma.com/en/club/hall-of-fame/ghiggia
This is a great vid of him, portraying him as a real trickster and an excellent crosser. which was posted some tome back in the reserves draft by @harms. Well worth the watch.
Ghiggia is a great player but Antohan has suggested he is the second best right winger in this draft which is quite an exaggeration to me. Every other list I have seen rates Ghiggia but not even close to that high.
For example this list has Ghiggia at 62nd for wingers while Marinho Chagas is the 36th ranked defensive lateral.
http://xtraimmortal.blogspot.com/2014/02/The9x100.html
This list by a respected Peruvian has Ghiggia as 49th in extremos and Marinho at 45th for defensive lateral.
http://glavisted.blogspot.com/2010/11/top-50-de-defensas-laterales.html
http://glavisted.blogspot.com/2011/02/top-50-de-extremos.html
Its also important to note Marinho Chagas was selected Best in Position by Placar two years in a row.
The idea that Ghiggia would somehow destroy Marinho like in 1950 is just absurd. It doesn't take other factors into account. For instance, Bigode is nowhere near looked at in Brazil as a top left back. Marinho has far more accompishments and respect winning Bola de Prato. Also, as Zizinho mentions Brazil was running an unfamiliar WM formation for that 1950 game. They played it about 4 games total!
So what the 49th ranked winger did to a scrub in an unfamiliar tactical formation is not valid evidence that 49th ranked winger could repeated the same feat on the 45th ranked defensive lateral in completely different tactical systems.
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It's always like that.Raúl Scarone's dad was a Peñarol fan, he pleaded with his son to go for trials with them but he Raúl wanted to stay at Nacional. "I'm at the best club in the land, why would I go to Peñarol? To eat shit?". The statement was half in Spanish, half in Italian, where eat shit is "mangiare merda".
Raúl was a good player alright, but his great historical significance is in that along with him he took his younger brother for trials. Years later Héctor would set the world alight for Nacional. It's a less known fact that due to a breakup and strikes in the Uruguayan league, it wasn't a Uruguayan NT but actually Nacional's first team that showed up representing the country at the 1924 Olympics. Had it not been for his brother not wanting to "mangiare merda" he may never have been there and it's entirely possible Nacional wouldn't have dared go.
It's on the back of this hugely significant conversation between father and son that to this day Nacional fans refer to Peñarol fans as "manyas" (ergo, shiteaters).
Destroy is too strong a word, but I do expect Ghiggia to have the better game there. Not that he'll overwhelm Marinho or something, but still.
These ranking systems are not exactly a common standard and it may vary across multiple sites. I doubt any argument on a player ranking higher on a internet site is the right supporting argument.
How is it any less valid than what Antohan is claiming?
He obviously never watched both players live and in person and is basing his comments 100% off of secondary sources as well.
How is antohan's opinion more valid than two other researchers who both spent time and their own money making those lists?
Btw, I think that I forgot to mention this, but I find this post classless - especially with your full name not mentioned in the OP/title of the thread. Manager's bias and overreacting is understandable but this looks like you're trying to blend in as a neutral, "shocked" by the result, and also the whole point of the new system was so that the undecided managers didn't knew the score or who's winning.
Garrincha, Ghiggia, and then who? Jairzinho was long gone when I said that.
Ghiggia is massively underrated (Joga spelled it out for me re: people dismissing a tourno when he was in fact destroying defences for years), while Marinho has his attacking game going for him. I don't know where Marcelo ranks these days, he sure is better than Marinho and would easily win Placar awards, but is he the man to stop Ghiggia? Not really. See my point?
Nobody said it is. anto would be the first to admit of the bias managers have regarding some players (they drafted, their country or their favourites etc). Anto being Uruguayan means his views get a bit more weight, but I doubt anybody here votes because anto thinks/says so.
I think that means they should also be taken with a grain of salt as well due to own country biases with some payers.
If Antohan's opinion that Ghiggia is better is valid then so are theirs that he is not. Again, its based on the same level of secondary sources. But its important to keep in mind those lists result from a lot of game watching and discussions and adjustments with other people who have input so a bit more valid IMO than one person's opinion. They are also spending their own money to host a website and accept critique and adjust rankings. I think that should hold some weight as they are putting more time, reputation and money on the line.
Julinho? Although not that I genuinely think that there is a big gap between them, I'd have them all roughly in the same tier.
None of them AFAIC. Possibly Muñoz but can't tell much on his individual quality in isolation from such a dominant team and setup. Jair would be a better fit to the zona mista if that were the right tactic for this game.
Tbf while I don't know much about the second source that you mentioned, xtratime lists are pretty flawed.
They are good as a starting point, as a place where you can look up for a new names to research them later. The actual ratings are too subjective (well, like any)
That's the way it is and always has been. As you just it's just an opinion and people read and consider it...but make their own judgement. Nobody takes anything posted here as gospel and almost everyone posting does their own research in addition too. Sites like Xtraimmortal have been quoted many times before and it's useful to know their ranking and it's a factor in judging a player...but it's never taken as a standalone expert database. Just one more point for consideration.
You do realise that's where all these things fall on their arse? Seeing as you are of the opinion everyone has biases on their own players (which I don't dispute, although Paolo tugs my heartstrings more than Alcides does) then you should realise that a player from a country with three million people who largely don't speak or write in English isn't going to get as much bumming as others.
Case in point, your Chilean bunch. The "blue ballet" is the most overrated load of tosh I've ever heard of. They dominated a shite league but they never won anything other than Summer friendly cups (the irony isn't lost on me with you being an Arsenal fan
). Whenever they entered a real tourno like the Copa Libertadores they were sent home packing in the first round. That's the truth, that's factual, they were completely and utterly irrelevant, but the Chilean El Gráfico needed something to write about.I think Julinho was gone as well, if he was picked at all. To be honest, I joined late and don't think there were more than 2-3 right wingers left in the draft when I said that so it wasn't the boldest of claims.
I agree. Only reason I brought it up was to show its not nearly as basic as some were exaggerating it to be. Marinho did actually receive plaudits for defensive skill as well so the comments underrate his defense every bit as much as I might be underrating Ghiggia.
I had nothing to do with the team selection, in fact I'm rather embarrassed that my name is added to the title. I only made 2 or 3 posts in the private convo so honestly I have nothing to do with this side, my surprise was only because their team was actually rather good and well balanced.
On a side note, but since we're talking right wingers, how you guys rate Figo in terms of all time status - no inside forwards - pure wingers?
For me he's below Garrincha and slightly above the all time greats mentioned here. I can see some of the names mentioned here giving him competition for that place, of course.
For me he's below Garrincha and slightly above the all time greats mentioned here. I can see some of the names mentioned here giving him competition for that place, of course.
Case in point, your Chilean bunch. The "blue ballet" is the most overrated load of tosh I've ever heard of. They dominated a shite league but they never won anything other than Summer friendly cups (the irony isn't lost on me with you being an Arsenal fan
First, I never claimed the team was some all conquering force. Second, the bolded bit is cheeky rubbish. You are well aware that was very common in that era and they were actually taken seriously, nothing like today's friendlies. Third, even if you call the team it doesn't mean all the players were rubbish. The players I picked all received a lot of plaudits outside of Chile as well. Fourth, the Copa is an interesting tournament historically. Not one that every nation has always taken seriously in earlier decades for a variety of reasons. If you want to use context, you can't be selective about it.
I've said from the outset your players were good fits (stylistically and in terms of naive abandon, although I skipped the last bit). I never went into that because it was down to your rivals to bring it up, but if you are going to question someone's judgement you have to take what comes with it.
Let's take Eyzaguirre as he is not around any more. Good attacking fullback, as perilous as it is to play someone like Leandro, probably even more so. Yes, he got picked for a Fifa XI, managed by the Chile manager mind you, and looked completely out of his depth for the entire half. Schoolboy defending throughout. Now go read El Gráfico's account of that game and you will laugh your bollocks off, standout performance blablabla.
Summer tournos were taken seriously insofar as they were great money makers, competitive they weren't. For starters, they usually caught European sides in their Summer break and South American sides at their peak (winter break equivalent).
@oneniltothearsenal
I don't want to get involved in the Ghiggia vs Marinho debate for obvious reasons, but just wanted to defend Ghiggia as I'd thought you were a bit too harsh on him, esp focusing on his goalscoring record to downplay him, when he was more of a tricky and a creative influence down the right.
That being said, mazhar did go in a bit strongly during the early exchanges, so I can understand why you were harsh in return, in the heat of the moment (you yourself acknowledge Ghiggia was a fine player after all in hindsight).
Great anecdote that.
Knowing Redtiger, I'm fairly certain it was a genuine reaction of disbelief as opposed to something with a more sinister connotation.
He had a similar reaction in the reserves draft, although after the match was over.
Was wrong to make that post in light of the voting arrangements in place, but I'm sure he wasn't fully aware of the implications of his statement when he made it in this thread.
Yeah after Garrincha and Jairzinho, Julinho's the pick of the bunch with the likes of Ghiggia and Cubilla behind him. Mentioned this a few days ago but I myself thought Julinho would have been a hot commodity in the reinforcement rounds.
Cubilla's lack of impact surprised me tbh, as there's a fair bit of footage of him and he's one of the better wingers in the draft and pool 2 to boot. Almost wasn't picked in this draft as it happened. Absolutely ripped the generally solid Caetano a new one in the Copa Libertadores final and was fairly impressive in his WC appearances too. Perhaps his career as a manager overshadows his body of work as a player perhaps. In the sense that people think he's rated highly, with his managerial career playing a signifcant part in his legacy. It does but it doesn't take away from the fine player he was imo.
I don't want to get involved in the Ghiggia vs Marinho debate for obvious reasons, but just wanted to defend Ghiggia as I'd thought you were a bit too harsh on him, esp focusing on his goalscoring record to downplay him, when he was more of a tricky and a creative influence down the right.
That being said, mazhar did go in a bit strongly during the early exchanges, so I can understand why you were harsh in return, in the heat of the moment (you yourself acknowledge Ghiggia was a fine player after all in hindsight).
Great anecdote that.Knowing Redtiger, I'm fairly certain it was a genuine reaction of disbelief as opposed to something with a more sinister connotation.
He had a similar reaction in the reserves draft, although after the match was over.
Was wrong to make that post in light of the voting arrangements in place, but I'm sure he wasn't fully aware of the implications of his statement when he made it in this thread.
Yeah after Garrincha and Jairzinho, Julinho's the pick of the bunch with the likes of Ghiggia and Cubilla behind him. Mentioned this a few days ago but I myself thought Julinho would have been a hot commodity in the reinforcement rounds.
Cubilla's lack of impact surprised me tbh, as there's a fair bit of footage of him and he's one of the better wingers in the draft and pool 2 to boot. Almost wasn't picked in this draft as it happened. Absolutely ripped the generally solid Caetano a new one in the Copa Libertadores final and was fairly impressive in his WC appearances too. Perhaps his career as a manager overshadows his body of work as a player perhaps. In the sense that people think he's rated highly, with his managerial career playing a signifcant part in his legacy. It does but it doesn't take away from the fine player he was imo.
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In regards to that post I'm sure @RedTiger did not put that post intentionally. He was not so involved in the draft so I'm not sure he's aware of the "new voting" system.
I'm on the same boat. I honestly thought that someone else would go after Cubilla much sooner than he went. He really was a great winger even if all of the up-front hits returned from Google refer more to his managerial career than his player one.
I also thought that Julinho would go on to the next stages as well as he was another great winger. I'd have gone for Julinho myself if I didn't get Ghiggia.
Yes - I should take some responsibility for that, actually. You did sort of distance yourself from the thing earlier on - but I just went with that team designation throughout.
On the other hand, you were duly tagged before each match - and could have easily told me in no uncertain terms that you were no longer an actual manager or co-manager.
Looking at it pseudo-juridically, you were tagged as co-manager before making the post in question. And you didn't object to that.
Anyway, this is borderline ridiculous (south of the border, probably) - but hey, that's what I'm saying, if this sort of thing detracts from what's interesting and imporant, we need clearer rules. It ain't complicated.
It really ain't. He's tagged as AM during the start of the draft and stays that way unless he backs out totally. Amount of contribution to team selection is not relevant once you become part of management team. Just AM or Not, no grades in between.