Yes, but what he's aiming for - as per his own stated intention - isn't to emulate the '82 team. He wants to improve on it - replace certain flawed components in order to make the machinery more efficient and less vulnerable.
The Americas Draft, SF2 onenil vs Maz/Mar/R
- Thread starter Chesterlestreet
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Yes, but what he's aiming for - as per his own stated intention - isn't to emulate the '82 team. He wants to improve on it - replace certain flawed components in order to make the machinery more efficient and less vulnerable.
Why do you believe this? Leandro bombing forward combined with the lazy team defense was the biggest weakness and caused the loss to Italy.
This image shows what I mean with Socrates on the inside right. My tactic was never meant to play like one with Garrincha. Tele Santana’s ideal side was always Holland total football inspired. He always wanted his side to both attack and defend as a unit. The failure against Italy was more in the side not defending. Not holding possession as a unit. It could provide width on the right as needed as a unit as Tele intended.
Socrates is most advanced and in the inside-right lane. The RB is on the outside right lane. He simply is more withdrawn at this point. The right holding mid provides support further back in the inside right lane able to switch play around the defense. The option to attack the outside right is certain present.
Now, Gambetta can certainly get forward and provide a presence in that outside right channel if necessary but IMO and from every re-watch and every match report, the biggest flaw to Tele's tactic against Italy was the lazy team defense and wanton and careless bombing forward. Never seen any football journalist every criticize that Brazil side for lack of width on the right. And Gambetta can provide that, he just isn't instructed to be careless as Leandro was against Italy.
Well, IMO exactly for the reasons we both commented on above. Socrates role was as an inside right, but he didn't stretch the play or provide the width on the right - that was Leandro. He was having that wing for himself and Socrates was there to combine with him, but the reason why he did get forward a lot and left space behind was exactly that - he had to to stretch the play.
Socrates moved inside and moved deep to confuse defenders, but he was a central player and that right side relied on Leandro in attack. Ideally you're looking at Cafu there to get the best of that role. Leandro for me was a wing back in that formation not a full back purely in positional sense.
To me where Tele Santana's Brazil failed is as Jonathan Wilson put it:
Of course that naivety was what made that team that fun and full of creativity. If you had a pick a better system or a right winger of sorts you had to sacrifice one of Zico/Socrates, which would have given the team more balance, but then how do you do that if you are Tele Santana
Yeah you are right, but then IMO it's very hard to upgrade that system, purely by switching personnel or slightly different roles. I get Alexis for example and his work rate, but still IMO you need a right wing back even in the improved formation with a holding player in front of the defence to cover for him or RCB in 3 CB line, or if in case of 4 man back line the LB would have to be more defensive minded and tuck in when he goes forward. Of course that is my conventional thinking that goes against the ideology here and this discussion is more appropriate for the remake draft and that system as I'm going a bit off topic here, so I'll let the managers continue on.
Initially onenil did hell of a job putting that 1982 side together and have to say it would be a lot of fun watching that side, like the original, so again brilliant effort.
Of course that naivety was what made that team that fun and full of creativity. If you had a pick a better system or a right winger of sorts you had to sacrifice one of Zico/Socrates, which would have given the team more balance, but then how do you do that if you are Tele Santana
Here are some more quotes from the two matchday commentators quoted above from Jonathan Wilson's Blizzard quarterly #13. These comments, written by Rob Smythe and Scott Murray watching the match live in person illustrate the flaws I worked to correct this draft. I do not believe just "having a ring winger" would have corrected these and balanced the squad so much as selecting different personnel with different traits and adapting the tactics to a slight degree more pragmatic.
"WHAT A MISS! The knives have been out for Serginho for most of this tournament and a few more rusty, serrated ones will be unsheathed after this appalling miss."
"The problem was that they were loitering with all the urgency of civil servants by the coffee machine and had no idea the ball was coming. It also bisected them perfectly. Luizinho was trotting upfield, Falcão wasn’t expecting the pass and it was too late by the time Junior realized what day it was."
"A languid relay run down the centre of the field, involving Leandro, Cerezo, Junior (whose nominal position of left-back really is little more than a basis for negotiation) and Serginho"
"Oriali wins the ball decisively from Eder, who has hardly had a kick apart from the free ones, and launches another Italian counter-attack."
"Brazil have so many men forward, it’s ridiculous. Junior — the effing left-back — is the main midfield conductor at the moment"
To me, these were more major issues to attempt to correct than ensuring a proper right winger which would inevitably lead to 'losing a man in the midfield' critique instead
It was the belief of many if Brazil had Reinaldo or Careca the fullbacks wouldn't have had to bomb forward so much.
Gambetta is perfectly capable of playing as a right wing back he is just instructed not to do so irresponsibly when too many players are up the pitch
Also Marinho DID tuck into midfield while he goes forward that is exactly why I picked him!
Tele Santana's premise of the team was never to have an all out attacking full back. His premise was to have all players capable of contributing in all phases so, a balanced full back that could attack and defend. That type simply wasn't available to him.
This is Tele Santana's premise for his team from an interview in 1981:
" I have said often that the ultimate satisfaction for me would be to coach a team like Holland 1974... I loved the strategies that team produced. The flowing movements, the interchanging of positions. It was a team strategy that allowed players to roam into different positions without weakening the system or formation. The genius Cruyff could drift from the left to the right side if he wished to do so and another player would fill the void he left. Every player could play anywhere on the pitch if need be. It was a beautiful team with very intelligent players who moved all over the pitch to support each other... that is ideally how i would like my teams to play , I believe there is enough talented and intelligent players in Brazil to achieve a similar style of play.. not to emulate the Dutch style, but to take inspiration and influences from it "
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Regarding Socrates and width, I agree - of course - that it's not realistic to expect him to regularly operate as an actual play stretcher out wide (and his manager doesn't expect him to either, for that matter, but it's clearly being used as a general point here that width is an issue), but I would nevertheless point out that Socrates' game involved roaming about to a considerable extent: He would shift around in that non-hurried style of his, actually covering large areas of the pitch, and - yes - I would say that he frequently enough moved out wide as part of this pattern. He involved himself all over the place, linking up with his team mates.
He was an odd player in many ways. Last time I re-watched some of the old WC footage, for instance, I was struck by a) how very deep he would sometimes be found b) the fact that he actually had a bit of a sprint on him - he rarely sprinted, and would've been knackered after ten minutes if he had done so regularly, but he had it in his locker and c) his defensive game - which wasn't half bad: He'd chip in with well timed tackles - and he was often in a position to do so (it wasn't random, to put it like that). The latter shouldn't be overplayed, of course, he was hardly a grand defensive presence - but he was extremely intelligent: His positional awareness, as they say, was absolutely first rate - he knew precisely where he was in relation to his team mates (and the opposition) at all times.
One hell of a player, in short - and very special in terms of style and traits.
He was an odd player in many ways. Last time I re-watched some of the old WC footage, for instance, I was struck by a) how very deep he would sometimes be found b) the fact that he actually had a bit of a sprint on him - he rarely sprinted, and would've been knackered after ten minutes if he had done so regularly, but he had it in his locker and c) his defensive game - which wasn't half bad: He'd chip in with well timed tackles - and he was often in a position to do so (it wasn't random, to put it like that). The latter shouldn't be overplayed, of course, he was hardly a grand defensive presence - but he was extremely intelligent: His positional awareness, as they say, was absolutely first rate - he knew precisely where he was in relation to his team mates (and the opposition) at all times.
One hell of a player, in short - and very special in terms of style and traits.
One nil,
It seems to me Brazil in 82 didn't lack width on the right since Leandro bombed forward like a maniac.
It would change the homage a little but it would make more sense to switch Sanchez and Socrates to different wings. Then Marinho can regularly overlap Socrates and Sanchez can provide width on the right with Gambetta playing a more conservative full-back role.
It seems to me Brazil in 82 didn't lack width on the right since Leandro bombed forward like a maniac.
It would change the homage a little but it would make more sense to switch Sanchez and Socrates to different wings. Then Marinho can regularly overlap Socrates and Sanchez can provide width on the right with Gambetta playing a more conservative full-back role.
Me too, unfortunately. I'd add that Cabrini played a key role in that system and that I don't think Marzolini can replicate his attacking game.
From a quick scan I gather you guys have been doing Brazil-Italy discussions to death, as is often the case when a magic quare with Zico and Socrates materialises.
Boring, I thought this was going to pan out better than that. OneNil doesn't have an accurate homage, and you don't need to be Italy 82 to beat that Brazilian side. They were very beatable, the whole Brazil 82 myth has been completely blown out of proportion, fragile team with some players who were a joy to watch.
That's about it really.
Boring, I thought this was going to pan out better than that. OneNil doesn't have an accurate homage, and you don't need to be Italy 82 to beat that Brazilian side. They were very beatable, the whole Brazil 82 myth has been completely blown out of proportion, fragile team with some players who were a joy to watch.
That's about it really.
That's ridiculous. Gambetta will be fine doing a Leandro, whether he should is a completely different matter. Agreed there's no width without the fullbacks, and if the fullbacks are genuinely providing it (which they would, because that is their game), then the entire notion of this being some significantly more defensively robust side falls on its arse.
But then you are getting the best of both worlds there. People will still imagine the cavalier play from the forwards, the width from the fullbacks... but also it isn't cavalier so it's all safe and sound. Clever.
One of the most ridiculous statements I've read in a while. Ghiggia would strike instant fear into any Brazilian fullback and is exactly the sort of winger that Brazilian attacking fullbacks struggle against.
If the whole thing is predicated on not taking a peno then Matthäus was a bottler too. I'm sure you would rather him than Ruben Marcos.
Well, that's why it was a question and not a statement.
He is playing a Beckham-esque right midfielder role here though and I always imagined him as a more attacking winger with devastating dribbling ability, someone like Johnstone for example. I don't know much about him though, mostly his World Cup resume (although I know that he didn't score as often as he did in 1950)
I still don't think that MMR have the right personnel to sit back and soak pressure though, especially considering that the quality of his defenders in all-time context (and Zico and arguably Socrates are an all-time great attackers) is questionable. They are fine in this draft and are among the top choices after the tier which includes Nilton/Djalma and Passarella/Nasazzi but it's simply not enough. Playing Didi like that is a waste too.
Because they forgot about their team's assets and focused on negating the rival.
Worse, they focused on negating a fairytale everyone has a hard on for so that alone will put you on the backfoot. As a general rule, everyone wants to go back and make Brazil win and see Italy lose. Trying to credibly replicate that Italy side in a draft without Italians is completely mental.
The fact is Mazhar would win this 9 out of 10 times because neither of Onenil's fullbacks can live with his wide players and the midfield is a complete and unmitigated carcrash at this stage. Zico does jack, Socrates does jack, Cerezo was at his best as a gung-ho box-to-box midfielder and a great ball-pinger from deep (but no monster DM as far as I am concerned), and Marcos is too far out of his depth here (and not a defensive-minded CM anyway).
There's no midfield to speak of to protect Domingos and Paolo from Tito-Didi-Enzo finding Ghiggia-Hugol-Sivori.
"Look at my zona mista Brazilian kryptonite", what a load of tosh. Why do people keep doing that? Football is a simple game, you just need to score more goals.
I'm baffled at Mazhar letting and actually playing into making this a discussion about Brazil 82, and even giving his rival the chance to turn this into a tactics lecture megafest (which draft junkies will obviously love). He's got 100% the better team so off he goes and makes it all NOT about how good his team is.
Bizarre.
Yup, I blew it. In a rush, I lost my head and completely screwed it up, but whatever, I don't have time to recover from this now. If I had more spare time, I could possibly start a comeback.
Who are Mar/R then and what is their point?
They are my AM's but haven't been involved as much as I have been. I won't blame them, though. Real life will always overcome the Caf.
It's funny, I kept telling myself to not focus on the opposition and to keep focusing on my team's strengths knowing that my side was actually quite good, but there you go, I blew it right at the heat of the moment.
I'm sorry to see such a good team lose against another good team in this fashion. I congratulate you, @oneniltothearsenal, in being more competent than me. Take Marzolini and win the whole thing.
BREAKING NEWS: Mazhar's been sacked halfway through the game and Tito Gonçalvez has been appointed caretaker manager, a role he has fulfilled for Peñarol about a dozen times in the last 30 years.
Huge sigh of relief from Didí who's been wondering all game why the feck they are sitting back.
Huge sigh of relief from Didí who's been wondering all game why the feck they are sitting back.
Nah, you know what, that's the loser's way out. I still have some time, so I might as well continue the match rather than end it here.
Updated write-up:
Match Write-Up (Major Updates)
Rest of the squad: Mauro Ramos, Jorge Burruchaga, Oscar Mas, Nelinho, Mario Zagallo
With a more defensively reliable, solid, and versatile player in Sensini playing at right back, Luis Pereira won't have to worry about covering for his right back anymore as he usually would and would focus more on keeping an eye on one of Brazil's attacking players floating around and trying to breach our lines. Gamarra and Sensini are both in their natural roles here in a setup familiar to them, so they should feel comfortable playing their natural defensive game. The same goes for Tito who had to play for a more defensive Penarol side in the 1960's; his battling leadership qualities and defensive awareness will come to the fore to keep our team focused on our main goal: victory. Didi complements this perfectly as he won't be prone to getting dragged around but rather will maintain his position naturally and prevent any one of Zico, Socrates, or Sanchez from getting free space in the middle to pick up the ball. Francescoli himself was a battler as well and will do what he can to unsettle Cerezo and even punish him.
Marzolini will now have more freedom to go forward, and this should suit him given that he was technically strong and also tended to go forward whenever the left winger would cut inside. He would normally stay back because the left winger/attacking midfielder would drift out to the left wing, but if the space was ever free, he would always get forward to fill it up, so he's certainly not out of his element here. Ghiggia will continue to play his natural right wing role, taking on his man 1-on-1 and twisting/turning them like he always does.
Players and roles:
Updated write-up:
Match Write-Up (Major Updates)
Rest of the squad: Mauro Ramos, Jorge Burruchaga, Oscar Mas, Nelinho, Mario Zagallo
- Main approach: remain organised; give the opponents a false sense of security; punish their mistakes; counter at every opportunity
- Defensive approach: medium-deep line; maintain organization
- Attacking approach: break quickly; get the ball to the attacking players in space; utilise the flanks to stretch the opponents
With a more defensively reliable, solid, and versatile player in Sensini playing at right back, Luis Pereira won't have to worry about covering for his right back anymore as he usually would and would focus more on keeping an eye on one of Brazil's attacking players floating around and trying to breach our lines. Gamarra and Sensini are both in their natural roles here in a setup familiar to them, so they should feel comfortable playing their natural defensive game. The same goes for Tito who had to play for a more defensive Penarol side in the 1960's; his battling leadership qualities and defensive awareness will come to the fore to keep our team focused on our main goal: victory. Didi complements this perfectly as he won't be prone to getting dragged around but rather will maintain his position naturally and prevent any one of Zico, Socrates, or Sanchez from getting free space in the middle to pick up the ball. Francescoli himself was a battler as well and will do what he can to unsettle Cerezo and even punish him.
Marzolini will now have more freedom to go forward, and this should suit him given that he was technically strong and also tended to go forward whenever the left winger would cut inside. He would normally stay back because the left winger/attacking midfielder would drift out to the left wing, but if the space was ever free, he would always get forward to fill it up, so he's certainly not out of his element here. Ghiggia will continue to play his natural right wing role, taking on his man 1-on-1 and twisting/turning them like he always does.
Players and roles:
- GK - Claudio Bravo: keep the ball out of the net and help relieve pressure from the defenders when they are pressed
- RB - Roberto Nestor Sensini - Defensive: stay back and keep the right side solid; watch for Sanchez cutting inside and plug the gaps on the inside right flank.
- RCB - Luis Pereira - Sweeper/Libero: read the game and sweep up any passes that come through; watch for the movement of the attacking players and ensure that they do not breach our line; get on the ball to support the attack if we maintain possession in order to push back onenil's team
- LCB - Carlos Gamarra - Stopper: make sure that nothing gets past him; block all shots, unsettle anyone entering his area with his presence, and make sure that the ball doesn't reach our goal.
- LB - Silvio Marzolini - Balanced (get forward to provide width when needed): take care of our left channel like he naturally would; close down anyone who tries to approach our left side; get forward to provide width on the left side when Sivori cuts inside. Having played in Italy when Catenaccio was starting to come to the fore, he will have a good understanding of his volante role here.
- DM - Nestor Goncalves - Anchor Man: stay back and shield the defence with his work rate and tactical awareness; can also start counters with his accurate passing and long range
- CM - Didi - box-to-box playmaker: dictate the team's pace and tempo; control the game in the midfield when in possession; spring the attacking players through on goal with his vision, accurate passing, and long range
- RW - Alcides Ghiggia - winger: provide the width on the right side; send crosses in for Hugo Sanchez and Sivori; cut inside to go through on goal when possible
- AM - Enzo Francescoli - free role: create chances at will; take on the opposition with his dribbling, technique, and flair; trouble the opposition with his vision, skill, and magic
- LW - Omar Sivori - inside forward: make runs through on goal; support Hugo Sanchez; stretch the opposition defence on the left side; use his flair, magic, and wily tricks to bamboozle the opposition and worry them
- ST - Hugo Sanchez - Goalscorer: go through on goal at every opportunity; get into goalscoring positions to score; try to get to all second balls in the box and pounce on them
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Regarding onenil's attacking approach, it seems like he's telling his team to do everything at once. If the full backs bomb forward, that's going to leave ample space for my wide players to exploit, and you can leave them in 1-on-1 battles. Regardless of the defensive quality, if you have a great attacking player face a great defensive player in a 1-on-1 on the break, the great attacking player will win more often than not, and in the case of Sivori, Francescoli, and Ghiggia, I've got tricky customers who cannot afford to leave in 1-on-1 battles.
Why? YOUR OPPONENT DOESN'T HAVE A MIDFIELD, take the game to them. Attack is the best form of defence, they'll be in disarray.
That Brazil was complete wank, all fancy tricks and no substance, completely shapeless in midfield until it all came together with Falcao joining them. Where's Falcao here? Nowhere to be seen.
Worse, it had Junior joining the midfield and playmaking from there as Eder provided the width and Zico attacked the box. Here you have Marinho having to go all the way up the pitch to provide width and Alexis and Zico largely occupying the same channel.
If anything, it's a weaker and more naive side than the 82 one (bar the awesome CB pair).
Probably true. Not true for me in particular, as I've always been on the Italian side all things considered. But yeah, of course, people romanticize Brazil '82 - would be odd if they didn't, you could even say.
However, most people who know anything about the side are well aware of its obvious flaws. So, with the exception of romantic scan voters who have a thing for that side (how many are they?), what people have bought into here is the idea that onenil has added more pragmatism, more defensive astuteness, and a brilliant line leader - to an '82 template of sorts.
M/M/R's problem is - as you rightly say - that they have focused on coming up with cryptonite against a) a model their opponent isn't actually using and b) a model that wasn't rock solid to begin with (again - people who know anything are well aware of this).
You seem to continue in the same vein of shooting yourself in the foot. You've just voted for One Nil to see the results. As per @Chesterlestreet's ruling, any team can vote for themselves and the vote won't be counted, but they can also vote for their rivals if they think they are better, but in that case the vote stands.
You've just extended his lead. You are having a mare mate, should have left Tito in charge.
Regarding all of this tactical talk about width and how it's provided:
Look at our match against Zorya yesterday. Notice how much we lacked width on the right side even when Lingard and Mata were playing on the inside right areas. It was only when Fosu-Mensah started coming forward more often did we have actual width in our team. If Lingard stayed outside right more often, Zorya would have been stretched, and that would have caused more issues for them.
Check the edit. I have this really stupid flash ad currently running that's annoying me and freezing up the Caf. I missed that amid all of the freezing. My intention is to go back to the setup I've had since the beginning of the draft.
Look at our match against Zorya yesterday. Notice how much we lacked width on the right side even when Lingard and Mata were playing on the inside right areas. It was only when Fosu-Mensah started coming forward more often did we have actual width in our team. If Lingard stayed outside right more often, Zorya would have been stretched, and that would have caused more issues for them.
Check the edit. I have this really stupid flash ad currently running that's annoying me and freezing up the Caf. I missed that amid all of the freezing. My intention is to go back to the setup I've had since the beginning of the draft.
That was 30 minutes ago when I felt like forfeiting. I don't care. If I lose, there's always another draft to play in. You may be mad at me for blowing this and getting all intimidated by an overrated team, but forget it, I'll try to come back here.
I had to turn on my blocker to make sure that the stupid flash ad doesn't screw me over any more.
Good, those stupid flash ads are now gone.
Next thing one should look at in my team is the threat Sivori will offer going forward. This man would get double-teamed regularly in Italy yet he would be a major threat to the opposition. Here, Marcos will have to worry about Sivori and not just leave him 1-on-1. Again, I said this earlier, but with the level of attacking players that I have going forward, one cannot afford to leave them 1-on-1 when trying to play an attacking game. If they decide to organise themselves and go back, good, that'll allow my team to take control of the match instead.
Next thing one should look at in my team is the threat Sivori will offer going forward. This man would get double-teamed regularly in Italy yet he would be a major threat to the opposition. Here, Marcos will have to worry about Sivori and not just leave him 1-on-1. Again, I said this earlier, but with the level of attacking players that I have going forward, one cannot afford to leave them 1-on-1 when trying to play an attacking game. If they decide to organise themselves and go back, good, that'll allow my team to take control of the match instead.
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Have Marty or Tiger vote for you, that evens it out.
I say again, though - there's something ridiculous about that aspect of the new format. Multiple manager teams are very common in these drafts - the issue is ever present, as it were.
What I want ideally is ONE manager with voting rights on each team. That person is free to vote whichever way he wants. And the vote counts. All the co-managers or AMs or whatever they are - can't vote. But if they do (by mistake, as I would call it) their votes will not be counted if they opt for their own side - but WILL be counted if they opt for the other team.
Mazhar/Marty/redtiger/antohan
Quite the team here.
Quite the team here.
To be clear, the above isn't a rule: It has never been stated as such. I'm proposing it as a rule for future drafts (if we stick with the current model).
Here and now the only thing which applies is common sense. I will be lenient in that regard. So, if one of his co-managers wants to cancel out mazhar's vote, they can do so.
Here and now the only thing which applies is common sense. I will be lenient in that regard. So, if one of his co-managers wants to cancel out mazhar's vote, they can do so.
That was already done. Both Marty and RedTiger already voted for my team. You can count one of theirs as a vote.
Alright.
But that's just silly - we've never allowed a whole management team to vote for their side (obviously not).
I think we need some stricter rules on this, actually. Can't have a bunch of co-managers banging about, causing havoc.
But for now - yes. One of those votes will count as void. You have effectively voted once for yourself and once for the opposition as a management team.
See, the main consideration is obviously this: You don't want situations where you have to scrutinize who has voted - discarding non-valid votes and whatnot - before declaring a winner.
You want the face value score to be the actual score.
You want the face value score to be the actual score.
How about managers / AM's just don't vote on their own games at all? Neutrals only
In this instance, it doesn't really matter anymore as I've pretty much lost.
However, it's good that this scenario came up now rather than later. There's another issue that we can tackle and hopefully resolve.
However, it's good that this scenario came up now rather than later. There's another issue that we can tackle and hopefully resolve.
Thought that was part of the idea? Create some suspense.
antohan said:
MMR is trying to get the best of both worlds much more than I, first trying to put out Brazil's nemesis of zona mista, then not using the actual Italian tactics (never even discussing the Gentile aspect which was pretty crucial so people could imagine man marking and zonal at the same time. Tactic really doesn't resemble Italy 82 much at all but he trying to keep bringing it up simply because Italy won.
Only because of the myths surrounding 1950 not because of any facts.
I think I will stop replying here. This reply makes me think you have not read my initial posts very carefully and your biases (which have become pretty clear) are seeping through. Some very strong confirmation bias in your posts. Have fun with your agenda!
I am just going to say this match already left a bad taste in my mouth.
24 hours after the match was supposed to start and no comment from any of the three managers and they are all AWOL, then I wake up a day after match is supposed to start, say 'whatever' and an hour or two later somehow all three of them have time to post in the match thread (which I thought was supposed to only be 1v1). Plus Maz was throwing haymaker whoppers from post 1 so I went on tilt a little. If tiny little details in single games are on the table then Hugo Sanchez scoring 1 in 8, refusing to take a penalty in his biggest game in the middle of his peak is legitimate critique IMO.
Oh and also the "work" excuses that come off as "vote for me sympathy"
as if I also don't have a lot of responsibilities and didn't just have to rebuild my computer which caused me to lose three weeks worth of saved info.
I just woke up and not really interested in your aggressive an clearly biased comments
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Yep I don't know where the whole " I'm gonna vote for my team so you do the same " thing came from
It's not that big a deal really. Just voted to see what the score was at that time. At the end just take the votes off.
The facts here are that Ghiggia scored 4 goals in the World Cup and was tied 3rd in the goalscorers chart alongside a great striker in Telmo Zarra. The fact is that he scored the winner against Brazil and got an assist against them as well. The fact is that he tore Bigode a new one in the match with his trickery, twists, and turns.
And you keep harping on about his World Cup record whilst ignoring his great club record and performances. It's like dismissing Lionel Messi because of his relatively poor international record.
Then you go on and harp on about Butragueno being the key player in the European Cup whilst dismissing the goals Hugol scored in Europe (against the best of the lot as well). Plus, his Atletico performances were spectacular and put him on the map, which is when Real Madrid went for him.
So what is it Mazhar for you? Is peak in this draft supposed to represent an entire 3 year career peak or just s single tournament of a handful of games?
If its just a single tournament that you can select for Ghiggia, then I can select a single tournament that Hugo bottled for criticism. If we are going with peak of 3 years, then you can't solely rate 4 tournament goals constantly. You already got a lot of mileage out of Ghiggia's tournament.
So Hugo's 1 goal in all 8 of his World Cup matches in the middle of his peak and not having the mental strength to take a penalty is just as relevant if not more so.
While we are clearing up misconceptions how about you say whether you intended a Gentile style man marking job on Zico this entire match or not. I already had some hipster numpty accuse me to trying to have it both ways when this entire match you are Italy zona mista but not Italy zona mista whenever it suits you. You implied a Gentile style marking in your OP but never actually explained things and let people assume BOTH Gentile man marking and Scots zone.
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