The Americas Draft, QF1: Tuppet vs Skizzo/Pat

[Moby]

Walter Gomez defo spent more time as #9 than false 9 ala Pedernera

That's surprising compared to what I read most of the time which admittedly was pretty scarce when I picked him. He was usually portrayed as a brilliant creative force who would probably be used as a typical modern day #10. I picked him to give me the possibility of playing him as an attacking midfielder in a 5-2-1-2 formation with Enzo and Leônidas up front*, although I did have his goalscoring instincts in mind which would have come to use with Enzo and Leônidas drifting left and right respectively and him bombing forward, but mainly I was in the impression that his best aspects were his creativity and flair. Would definitely like to know a lot more about him, seems like a genuinely entertaining footballer especially going by how the fans used to welcome his sight on the pitch.

*a better alternative to playing Enzo as the attacking midfielder with Leônidas and Salas up front.

[Although I was almost dead set on using the midfield triangle of Masch, Di Maria and Solich/Rincón as that was a great blend of defensive and offensive capabilities in front of a 5 man defense. Shame I couldn't talk about it more during the game. ]

 

[antohan]

Midfield = even. The best set would be Tuppet's with Bochini instead of Ademir

Strikers vs. CB pair = even, I can see both doing damage

It's the flanks that I find intriguing:
- Víctor + Labruna should make short work of Forlán + Hormazábal. It's both a better defender and a better forward, and Víctor can support Labruna effectively enough to give Forlán a hard time. Forlán wasn't all that as a defender, but he was a very good crosser. Ronaldo won't be winning any aerial duels, Joya on the other hand...

- Alves + Scarone vs. Junior + Joya is where I would expect SkizzoPat to focus their efforts. Both fullbacks will get shafted regularly and I can see Alves/Scarone working well with Romario, while Joya would find a more Spencer-like partner in Ronaldo.

All in all, SkizzoPat need Joya to have the game of his life here, which he is capable of, but I haven't seen him mentioned much so I have to assume the gameplan was rather different.

 

[antohan]

That's surprising compared to what I read most of the time which admittedly was pretty scarce when I picked him. He was usually portrayed as a brilliant creative force who would probably be used as a typical modern day #10. I picked him to give me the possibility of playing him as an attacking midfielder in a 5-2-1-2 formation with Enzo and Leônidas up front*, although I did have his goalscoring instincts in mind which would have come to use with Enzo and Leônidas drifting left and right respectively and him bombing forward, but mainly I was in the impression that his best aspects were his creativity and flair. Would definitely like to know a lot more about him, seems like a genuinely entertaining footballer especially going by how the fans used to welcome his sight on the pitch.

*a better alternative to playing Enzo as the attacking midfielder with Leônidas and Salas up front.

[Although I was almost dead set on using the midfield triangle of Masch, Di Maria and Solich/Rincón as that was a great blend of defensive and offensive capabilities in front of a 5 man defense. Shame I couldn't talk about it more during the game. ]

Remember this story?

A few minutes later Obdulio gets the ball, looks ahead, sees Hohberg alert and moving to make the space for him to pass into, nods his head knowingly and places it bang in the middle. Crunching tackle, and Tejera had got his message: he couldn’t make the connection break down, which was probably the easy win game-plan he had dwelled on all week. Soon after Ghiggia scored, and five minutes before half time Tejera brought down Hohberg in the box: penalty. Tejera loses the plot screaming bloody murder at the ref and gets sent off. The penalty is taken by Míguez, saved, but Vidal scores from the rebound. Nacional players are by now all over the place. They know they are completely dominated and destined to lose by a basketball score. They surround the ref, the centre-forward kicks him and is also sent off…

That was Walter Gomez and kicking the ref got him a one year ban which meant 1. that he missed out on the 1950 World Cup, 2. that he moved to River because the ban didn't apply in Argentina (still moved for a record fee though).

He certainly had the attributes for a more withdrawn role. His idol was Moreno and when he moved to River he got given the #8 initially (Moreno had left the previous season) but it's not like he was some sort of cerebral playmaker. Think about a nippy dribbler, think Sívori, think Messi, that sort of wicked player that gets defences tied up in knots. So yes, you could play him as AM/IF, but he very quickly moved from #8 to #9 where he played one-twos with his partners and piled up defenders for fun with the ball glued to his feet, or flicking it with his heels over the CB, before shooting and scoring. An artist, absolutely, but a deadly one.

Very much like Romario then.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

That's a rather deceptive depiction of Labruna. The beauty of La Maquina was the unpredictability of it. Moreno used to play CF but their manager and architect pointed out his skills would be best used starting from deeper ("You will be more effective with space and movement in front of you"), while Pedernera was a former creative winger who "was constrained by the byline and should play as a centreforward through the middle". Pedernera was the #9 but his creative instincts turned him into a false 9, possibly by accident more than design. As Labruna put it: "Adolfo was the strategist, even more distinctly than Alfredo (Di Stéfano) ever was".

So yes, they wound up playing like this much of the time, but they were unplayable because any one of those three in the middle could drop deep and create or push forward and arrive as the centreforward.

I don't get how this means Labruna wouldn't work with Romario (an outstanding all round footballer). In fact, only a few years later he played the exact same inside left role in "La Maquinita" with Walter Gomez as centreforward (and Walter Gomez defo spent more time as #9 than false 9 ala Pedernera).

Tuppet's description of his front three as MSN is a good one and, in particular, Romario in the Suarez role is a shoe in: a centreforward who will battle, give defenders hell, but who can also turn provider for the other two.

No issues with Romario being capable of turning provider - after picking Ronaldo I was rewatching some of Ro/Ro stuff from the Confederations Cup and Copa America and some of the interchanges were just - but the Suarez comparison seems way off to me. That consistent, selfless battling and off the ball running that makes Suarez such a great foil for the other two is something I just never associate with Romario, who generally had the likes of Stoichkov and Bebeto doing so much of the legwork and foraging.

 

[Ecstatic]

Labruna - an all-round striker apparently noted for his acceleration & agility - used to play for a team where there is no target striker & sometimes operated his game in deep-lying forward line or as a left-winger.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

All in all, SkizzoPat need Joya to have the game of his life here, which he is capable of, but I haven't seen him mentioned much so I have to assume the gameplan was rather different.

Not really, I've just been focused on answering stuff that's came up in the thread, and his role was fairly self-explanatory so it didn't require much elaboration in the (too short, last minute) write up. Also, our width advantage has been consistently mentioned, so I took it as a given that people were recognising the role he was playing here. In the previous match we wanted him switching wings more and targetting the other full back on occasion, but here he was always going to get more joy targetting Alves, and his stated brief was to keep Alves pegged back, take him on and/or exploit the lapses in his positioning. Ronaldo is always going to be the focal point of this attack, but I don't see Joya being isolated or marginalised with someone like Bochini orchestrating our play and the cerebral Junior behind him.

I did make a post pointing out how narrow Tuppet's left wing is when he's attacking, in contrast to ours with Joya as one of the best natural wingers in the draft.

 

[Gio]

Fairly similar teams. Midfields are much of a muchness in both design and quality. Both attacks are very nice. Defences are strong - Forlan looks a little lightweight in this company it has to be conceded though. In terms of synergies and collective play, Simeone and Bochini look like a complementary pairing, as do Romario and Labruna. I thought Simeone was a slightly underwhelming reinforcement, but actually he's perfect for a job here hounding Ademir da Guia and/or checking Vidal's forward runs. Monti obviously works with Alves pushing on the right, and providing some additional support to quell the best player on the pitch. I wonder to what extent Junior can overload the midfield and establish some control for Skizzopat?

 

[antohan]

No issues with Romario being capable of turning provider - after picking Ronaldo I was rewatching some of Ro/Ro stuff from the Confederations Cup and Copa America and some of the interchanges were just - but the Suarez comparison seems way off to me. That consistent, selfless battling and off the ball running that makes Suarez such a great foil for the other two is something I just never associate with Romario, who generally had the likes of Stoichkov and Bebeto doing so much of the legwork and foraging.

Well, no, I didn't mean it in that way. I was thinking about what most on here regard as the "nasty traits" which are very much part of Suarez/Romario's game. Being cocky, getting under the defender's skin, ridiculing them in a move, score, gloat, rinse repeat. There's no shutting them up, there's no bullying them into submission, the more you throw at them the more they dish it straight back at you. I positively hated Uruguay facing Romario, while I've never been in anything but a positive mood when playing Brazil.

It was that sort of "battling" I was referring to, not Romario's application to defensive work/pressing/recovery. You are absolutely right there. He would press a ball like Rashford's yesterday, anything that had a whiff of possibly turning into a chance, but he wouldn't turn his back to goal and chase someone down the pitch.

 

[antohan]

Not really, I've just been focused on answering stuff that's came up in the thread

sounds familiar. Always make or find the time to say what YOU want to say though.

his stated brief was to keep Alves pegged back, take him on and/or exploit the lapses in his positioning. Ronaldo is always going to be the focal point of this attack, but I don't see Joya being isolated or marginalised with someone like Bochini orchestrating our play and the cerebral Junior behind

My beef is primarily with how Joya's role is defined in the op. It's a role predicated on influencing or exploiting what the rival fullback does. That's the sort of tactical instruction you give to someone like Camoranesi, not Juan Joya. It's Alves that should be worrying.

As Gio said, Junior's role could be crucial here.

Bochini-Ronaldo would work very well the more I think about it.

 

[harms]

As Gio said, Junior's role could be crucial here.

Bochini-Ronaldo would work very well the more I think about it.

Yes and yes - this pairing is probably the best partnership in the whole draft (and will remain so unless Skizzopat will be eliminated as the reinforcements are limited)

 

[harms]

Monti obviously works with Alves pushing on the right, and providing some additional support to quell the best player on the pitch

Who are you talking about here? My English has its limitations and from google tells me, Alves is going to quell Joya/Junior? I'm sure that I simply misunderstood the post

 

[harms]

Btw, @antohan, how high do you rate Scarone? I have to say, I discovered him not so long ago, when I stumbled upon the vote where different sports editorials provided their lists of an all-time best footballers. There were minor differences, with UK and Germany, I think, including Charlton, Argentina including Moreno etc., but what surprised me was that Uruguayan and some other SA paper chose Scarone ahead of the likes of Schiaffino as their "biased" choice.

Can't find it now though

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Am I right in assuming that you can't change your vote? Might be a downside to this system -- a lot of people change votes as arguments progress. @Chesterlestreet

 

[Ecstatic]

SCARONE



JOYA

 

[antohan]

Am I right in assuming that you can't change your vote? Might be a downside to this system -- a lot of people change votes as arguments progress. @Chesterlestreet

It's not linked to the system I think. It's an option which didn't get checked and there may be some logic to it as otherwise you can just vote to see the results.

It's an issue though. I put in a preliminary vote but expected to hear more from Pat re: that Junior-Joya flank and how it operates.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Am I right in assuming that you can't change your vote? Might be a downside to this system -- a lot of people change votes as arguments progress. @Chesterlestreet

The idea is to encourage people not to vote straight away - but rather wait until certain arguments have been made, and certain criticisms have been dealt with (or not, as the case may be).

 

[antohan]

Btw, @antohan, how high do you rate Scarone? I have to say, I discovered him not so long ago, when I stumbled upon the vote where different sports editorials provided their lists of an all-time best footballers. There were minor differences, with UK and Germany, I think, including Charlton, Argentina including Moreno etc., but what surprised me was that Uruguayan and some other SA paper chose Scarone ahead of the likes of Schiaffino as their "biased" choice.

Can't find it now though

I'm trying (and failing) to keep mum about players so that the managers work shines through rather than my views.

I stepped in on the Labruna-Romario thing as it was painting the wrong picture and that would be a shame, but I'd rather not go around bumming players. As I said, will be happy to comment when it's done and dusted.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Also - yes: It's not linked to the format as such. You can combine non-visible results and vote changing - the question is whether you'd want to. As anto says, if changing is allowed people can start voting for what looks best at first glance - just to check the result.

 

[harms]

I'm trying (and failing) to keep mum about players so that the managers work shines through rather than my views.

I stepped in on the Labruna-Romario thing as it was painting the wrong picture and that would be a shame, but I'd rather not go around bumming players. As I said, will be happy to comment when it's done and dusted.

Alright. You can write me a PM if it's okay, since I'm not a part of this draft or I'll just wait until the end of it, which is maybe the best option here.

Can't find those newspaper scans though, I was dumb enough not to bookmark them

 

[Ecstatic]

If I'm not wrong, we should have sthg like that

 

[harms]

If I'm not wrong, we should have sthg like that

What's the point of this picture? The teams will never be situated like that, one team will be attacking, the other will be defending and vice versa
Putting one attacking template over another doesn't really help to understand the game

 

[Gio]

Who are you talking about here? My English has its limitations and from google tells me, Alves is going to quell Joya/Junior? I'm sure that I simply misunderstood the post

Monti dropping in to help the defence deal with Ronaldo.

 

[Ecstatic]

What's the point of this picture? The teams will never be situated like that, one team will be attacking, the other will be defending and vice versa
Putting one attacking template over another doesn't really help to understand the game

Do you mean the players will run?

I just prefer 1 picture instead of 2...

 

[harms]

Monti dropping in to help the defence deal with Ronaldo.

Oh, it wasn't connected to Alves at all, got confused here, sorry.

 

[harms]

Do you mean the players will run?

I just prefer 1 picture instead of 2...

No, there should be at least 2 pictures if you want to show what will be going on there, the teams won't going to attack each other at the same time, they only have one ball at their disposal

 

[antohan]

No, there should be at least 2 pictures if you want to show what will be going on there, the teams won't going to attack each other at the same time, they only have one ball at their disposal

I used to try those things showing how it worked with ball and without ball... they never made things any clearer. I remember a game with @Gio when we went round and round in circles and got exactly where we had started (we both thought we won, obviously) but just bored the living daylights out of everyone.

 

[Gio]

I used to try those things showing how it worked with ball and without ball... they never made things any clearer. I remember a game with @Gio when we went round and round in circles and got exactly where we had started (we both thought we won, obviously) but just bored the living daylights out of everyone.

I wanted to use them in the last match to explain how full-backs would get involved in the play and the positions players would typically take up in covering - which looks nothing like two XIs imposed on top of each other. But it's a lot of effort to probably just shoot yourself in the foot.

 

[antohan]

I wanted to use them in the last match to explain how full-backs would get involved in the play and the positions players would typically take up in covering - which looks nothing like two XIs imposed on top of each other. But it's a lot of effort to probably just shoot yourself in the foot.

Exactly. The oppo would just resort to your typical "the FB has left X in ocean's of space" even when Xs team doesn't have the feckig ball anyway!

 

[Tuppet]

While trying to find more videos on La Maquina to justify Labruna's role I came across this nice story, which I didn't know about before -

In 1949, ‘Il Grande Torino’ were regarded as one of the best teams in world football, as they were on the verge of winning their fourth consecutive Serie A title. However, whilst returning from a friendly match against Benfica in Lisbon, disaster struck. In poor weather conditions, the plane that the team and officials were travelling on crashed into the Basilica of Superga near Turin. There were no survivors.

Upon hearing the news of the tragedy, River Plate president Antonio Vespucio Liberti decided that his team should go to Italy in order to show solidarity with Torino, with the idea that a match between the two teams could also raise money for the victim’s families. Therefore, just 22 days after the tragedy on May 26 1949, River Plate played a friendly against a team representing the symbol of Torino, made up of a selection of the best players in the Italian league, the match finished 2-2.

Despite being over sixty years since Superga, River Plate and Torino still maintain a close affiliation, with Torino fans appreciative of River’s role in the healing process that was necessary after the disaster. In the Torino Museum in Grugliasco, a current River Plate shirt can be found, thus showing that the match between the two teams is still regarded as a significant fixture in the clubs history. The fact that Torino’s current away kit echoes the traditional diagonal sash shirt made famous by River Plate, is another way in which the affiliation continues in the present day.

The game even survived some footage, although its a very small highlights compilation, both Labruna and Di Stefano scored.



Edit: More details on that game -

Upon their arrival in Italy, Liberti was met with an emotional embrace on the runway from his Torino counterpart Ferruccio Novo, signalling the start of a unique friendship between the two clubs that remains as strong as ever today.

The game – against a Serie A select XI who played under the name ‘Torino Simbolo’ – took place on 26 May, three weeks after the disaster. River Plate’s star-studded side included Alfredo Di Stefano, while Juventus legend Giampiero Boniperti was among those who pulled on the granata jersey of his club’s city rivals. The symbolic Torino team was captained by Pietro Ferraris, the Grande Torino winger who had left the club the previous summer after winning four consecutive scudetti. A 2-2 draw seemed fitting on an emotional afternoon, but the gestures of solidarity went further.

Liberti also reportedly offered legendary River Plate forward Angel Labruna to Torino in an act of remarkable generosity, although the move never materialised. That offer may have taken place in June, when Torino’s president Novo – accompanied by legendary Italy forward Silvio Piola, who had played for Torino during the war – was invited to Buenos Aires to receive a special presentation from Evita Peron.

In the ensuing decades, the likes of Enzo Francescoli, Patricio Hernández and current Torino forward Maxi Lopez have turned out for both teams, but there is a more permanent, emblematic reminder of the gesture River Plate made that day in May 1949.

Since the 1950s, the two clubs have regularly used each other’s home colours for their respective away kits, and it is no coincidence that Boyé made his first Serie A appearance for Torino wearing a white shirt with a red sash running from shoulder to hip – the colours of River Plate. The kit he wore on the opening day in Milan has its roots in the appreciation of his former club’s commitment to fly across the Atlantic at a moment’s notice to pay tribute to Italy’s greatest-ever side and to offer help to a club in crisis.

67 years on, that act of solidarity and respect has not been forgotten. If Lucas Boyé fulfils his significant potential in the colours of Torino, the Granata faithful will have something else to thank River Plate for.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Great story, that.

And a decade later Bernabeu offered the same Di Stefano to United after another plane crash.

 

[antohan]

Liberti also reportedly offered legendary River Plate forward Angel Labruna to Torino in an act of remarkable generosity, although the move never materialised.

Not surprising. Labruna was River through and through. His entire life revolved around all things River Plate, so much so that until his death he lived only a few blocks away from their stadium. Don't remember exactly what he said but it was something along the lines of how it gave him a warm fuzzy feeling to walk out of his house and see El Monumental, his very own Colisseum.

Great story by the way, wasn't aware of that.

 

[antohan]

By the way, I notice this "goalie" shit is still going strong

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Feck, this is probably the worst turnaround I've ever been on the receiving end of, although I knew the early scoreline was too good to be true.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Odd not knowing the score - but I have to say that on a pure entertainment level this format undoubtedly works.

Whether it's an actual improvement or not remains to be discussed, I guess. But what @Pat_Mustard says above is at the core if it, surely. A radical turnaround which can't possibly be the result of people responding - directly - to the result as it stands. That's interesting, I think.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Odd not knowing the score

Fact is knowing the score doesn't matter as now both managers (plus AMs) have to vote to see it themselves. Bit annoying to not know if you are leading/trailing in a close visible vote since managers votes have to be discarded.

In all honesty I'd rather go back to old format with visible/changeable votes.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Odd not knowing the score - but I have to say that on a pure entertainment level this format undoubtedly works.

Whether it's an actual improvement or not remains to be discussed, I guess. But what @Pat_Mustard says above is at the core if it, surely. A radical turnaround which can't possibly be the result of people responding - directly - to the result as it stands. That's interesting, I think.

Yep, it seems to be working for my money. Well, not for me personally right now of course, and both Tuppet and I have mini-spoilered things at different times I guess, but it does seem to have helped with people getting their votes in and avoiding the voting for a draw conundrum.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Feck, this is probably the worst turnaround I've ever been on the receiving end of, although I knew the early scoreline was too good to be true.

Aye, when I logged off it was 6-1 in your favour and I thought that it was way too harsh on Tuppet but when I logged on again today, it was 10-7 in tuppet's favour which was quite the turnaround.

Voted for you as I figured the Joya-Ronaldo duo would probably just about edge it for you in a tight match. Not much between both sides.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Yep, it seems to be working for my money. Well, not for me personally right now of course, and both Tuppet and I have mini-spoilered things at different times I guess, but it does seem to have helped with people getting their votes in and avoiding the voting for a draw conundrum.

Agreed, it does increase the chances that people will vote and decrease the likelihood of those just staying on the fence (I'm one of those). However, if we clear the manager/AM issue (can only vote for your side or some rule of that sort) and make it clear that the manager/AM should state in the thread that they've voted, I don't mind this rule going forward. In our game, it's really close but I don't know the real score-line as I don't know how EAP and Sjor have voted - for all I know both of them have voted for Enigma and me. Quite the suspense it has to be said.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Two key points going into the final stretch:

- Tuppet's lack of attacking width on his left wing: With Victor Andrade as a defensive left back, Labruna's style being much closer to a striker than an outside left, and Ademir providing little in the way of supplementary width, his attack will be very narrow on that side, failing to target our weakest defender in Forlan and allowing us to adopt a compact defensive shape. In contrast, Juan Joya on our left wing is one of the outstanding pure wingers in the draft and will give Dani Alves all manner of problems whilst stretching Tuppet's defence and pulling his CBs out of position, creating space for the lethal Ronaldo to exploit. This is the decisive tactical advantage on the pitch.

- Ademir's slow tempo vs Simeone's aggressive pressing: Ademir was a superbly skilful player, but he played at a particularly slow tempo and looks like someone that would struggle with modern pressing. Simeone is a great fit to press him out of his comfort zone and limit his influence here.

 

[Tuppet]

Two key points going into the final stretch:

- Tuppet's lack of attacking width on his left wing: With Victor Andrade as a defensive left back, Labruna's style being much closer to a striker than an outside left, and Ademir providing little in the way of supplementary width, his attack will be very narrow on that side, failing to target our weakest defender in Forlan and allowing us to adopt a compact defensive shape. In contrast, Juan Joya on our left wing is one of the outstanding pure wingers in the draft and will give Dani Alves all manner of problems whilst stretching Tuppet's defence and pulling his CBs out of position, creating space for the lethal Ronaldo to exploit. This is the decisive tactical advantage on the pitch.

- Ademir's slow tempo vs Simeone's aggressive pressing: Ademir was a superbly skilful player, but he played at a particularly slow tempo and looks like someone that would struggle with modern pressing. Simeone is a great fit to press him out of his comfort zone and limit his influence here.

As mentioned in OP, Labruna is not supposed to be an outside left, but an inside left, the position he has always played. Having 2 fluid forwards who are not wingers has never hampered great attacking sides before. There are countless examples from Neymar, CR7 to Martial playing on the left side and providing both width and direct attacking thrust. Which is the same Labruna would do. Another thing is if Forlan is not facing Labruna, then what exactly is his role on the pitch ? would he just allow Labruna to run on the central defenders? along with Romario, there is no way Pat's central defensive partnership can keep both Labruna and Romario quiet.

Labruna - Romario - Scarone is one of the finest trio in this draft, its too much firepower to be contained by the defeding team.