And the whole point of taking out actual venues was to avoid the ridiculous stats based discussions. Now it's just degraded into posting stats based on guesswork venues.
The All Time ODI Cricket Draft QF 3: Crappy vs MJJ
- Thread starter Norris
- Start date
- I said the conditions will help my bowler better. That is mentioned in the OP by the mod as well. It literally mentions that support for seam movement will tone down as the match progresses.
- I said that there is no point in guessing countries, it was also others who brought up England, not just me.
- Vivs' record tell us that he is the best player on the pitch who is also a big game player. He is most likely to win the game on his own.
- Never said Kallis is someone like Sehwag. I have maintained that he is an asset in such conditions against a good bowling attack. According to you he is perhaps the worst ODI batsman of all time and any team with him in it has no chance of winning.
- I already said that Lara is better than Llyod. If we were to rank middle order batsmen then it would go Viv > Lara > Kallis
- I have already given your bowling attack much more credit than you have to any player in my team.
- Cairns IMO is bette player than Maxwell. rest of the voters can make up their own mind your snide remarks not-withstanding.
As per your arguments, you will score 300+ and then Kallis will make sure that my team does not cross 200 in 50 overs.
It is clear as a day as to who is the one arguing dishonestly in the match thread.
I said that we should not do it and it does against this exercise.
Exclude ground, its still an average of 33. Whats the point if we dont take individual matchups into account.
I give only minimal importance to the stats there. We are talking about career peaks here. Are you arguing that Viv was at his peak during those circumstances? If you are arguing that Imran would have a bigger influence in this match then fine...but coming to a conclusion that Viv at peak is the worst batsman on the pitch is just ridiculous no matter how you cut the stats to prove it.
- EAP himself said the pitch will support both sides bwolers but you keep on disagreeing with this.
- You said there is no point but then go on and bring up england? You should be a politician.
- Vivs' record against imran tells me he wont.
- I said he is slow. Where have I called him the worst odi batsman of all time.
- Again, check vivs record. no way is he ahead of lara or KP.
- You have said they are better while at the same time discrediting them.
at my side scoring at best 200-250.He faced imran from 1977-1989. thats his whole career so yes he was at his peak then and suffered badly.
I don't get the point in the conditions at all if we're not allowed to take them into account.
I also don't understand why people are even allowed to pick post 2000 players. People don't rate the batsmen because the pitches are shit, rules etc..You'd assume then that the bowlers who've done well will be rated highly but that's not the case either for no apparent reason.
If people are going to adjust for the conditions in different eras then do it both ways. Otherwise, you're just being a massive hypocrites.
No no akash, our team is going to go out for 200 runs if we are lucky against an inferior bowling lineup.
None of Akhtar cairns and Fleming have notable swing anyways. Kapil has but he isn't going to reverse it either meaning once the ball gets old he will get no swing. May end up being carnage. The difference here between bowlers is big imo.
I don't believe that Viv won't make an impact though. It won't be easy to face 3 fast swing bowlers who can swing with the old ball too but Viv has class to play as per the situation.
I don't believe that Viv won't make an impact though. It won't be easy to face 3 fast swing bowlers who can swing with the old ball too but Viv has class to play as per the situation.
DId you mean to vote for crappy? Thats twice from your post you have given the impression that you are leaning towards my side.
Conditions are provided because it would introduce an additional dynamic for match arguments as in Player A will benefit or Player B will not have much assistance from the pitch and so forth. It should be kept at a level when you can say how your players will have the advantage or opponent will not have any. The moment it gets stretched to GOAT player being terms as worst on the pitch is when it breaks down to ridiculous.
I think you ignoring Warne here. He has proven time and again that he does not need spin friendly pitches to make impact. Also Akhtar's in-swining yorkers were only second to Younis. To say he would not have any impact in swinging conditions is false.
Yeah. Personally I feel the team crappy has the capability to chase down any score. Of course I voted based on initial thoughts and more to see the results but yes, I think his batting is better.
I mainly read what both have written and if it doesn't, I would give my opinion. I always reconsider my vote based on new findings after a while for sure. Right now though, even with your bowling, crappy's batsman have more than enough to get a chase done. I think Brendan Taylor is underrated. Even though he is a mismatch in the team he has the ability to bat well to support someone like Kapil or Lloyd. And I think Kallis being slow is overstated too. I don't think he is someone who will defend when the requirement is to score fast. He is a top LOI batsman.
@MJJ I am starting to think that you started watching cricket only a decade ago.
There was a time when 250 was a great score in ODIs. Like I said, you rarely get the type of conditions EAP described in one-dayers now days IMO something like 250 will be a par score in such conditions.
There was a time when 250 was a great score in ODIs. Like I said, you rarely get the type of conditions EAP described in one-dayers now days IMO something like 250 will be a par score in such conditions.
Repeating myself a bit here but he is heavily reliant on dev/cairns and taylor. I have waqar and imran to open and anwar and viv track record is bad here. On phone right now, but kallis not upping the run rate while chasing is pretty well known.
Yeah sure for my batsman. Yours are scoring 300 here easy right? 250 hasnt been the par score since 1996.
That's how I feel the match will turn out as well. My bowling attack will keep him to a par score on the pitch. Then I have requisite batting fire power in Anwar, Smith, Viv, Kallis, Llyod, Taylor, Cairns and Dev to chase it down. Like I said before, batting is more critical in ODIs while bowling is more critical in tests.
Anwar=average 29
Viv=averages 19 or 33
Taylor=averages 30s
Cairn=averages low 20s
Dev=averages low 20s
I can see why you want this to be a low scoring game and not a high scoring one.
Where have I said I will score 300? It is a moot point since I am not batting first but chasing a target. 250 stayed the par score at least till 2003 WC.
Since this all time ODI draft, why do you assume that you would play it on modern day pitches?
If you are that bothered, don't put a number on it. I think you will get till the par score, whatever it may be, and no more. My batting will chase it down.
Almost all of my batsman have a better average than yours in conditions such as this.
Smith> Fleming (stats and condition)
Mccullum>>Anwar
Viv=Smith ( viv against imran and smiths inexperience)
Lara>Kallis
Lloyd=Pieterson
Maxwell>>Taylor
Imran>Cairns (or viceversa)
Dev is the extra man for you but he averages 20.
And my bowling is better so how exactly are you chsing a par score here and my batsman are making a par one rather tahn above par?
Oh wait I forgot, we arent taking conditions or stats or individual matchups into account. And I can jsut as easily ask why do you think the match is being played in the 50s?
The Anwar and Viv averages
Funny how you have just assumed where the venue will be. Shame all my players could not pad up their stats on modern pitches, hence I will surely lose this. After all my whole top 5 will not be a factor at all and it will down to the lower order to chase it down. This is not fun anymore and exceedingly tedious. You can continue with a false line of argument if it gets you the win, I won't be responding anymore to your points. Will answer other voters and make points to them.
Sorry just have to once @ Steven Smith = Sir Vivs Richards
once @ Steven Smith = Sir Vivs RichardsIt's still very stupid to clump Australia and WI into that group. Anyone who's watched for a respectable amount of time knows those conditions are nowhere comparable.
The Anwar and Viv averages
This is not fun anymore and exceedingly tedious. You can continue with a false line of argument if it gets you the win, I won't be responding anymore to your points. Will answer other voters and make points to them.
thats anwar average overseas or are you really making a case that he wasnt weak on bouncy pitches?
Whats a false line of argumetn about the viv average? If you want to ignore what happened in the past then be my guest since that suits your agenda.
Thats like the tenth time you have said this without giving credit to my bowlers who have bowled on the same pitches but have better stats than yours. See your hypocrisy now?
Dont make me laugh, false line of argument.
That a fair assessment I would say.
My own opinion is that Akthar would have the benefit of seam early on (hopefully he doesn't start tampering with it
) but MJJ has the edge in swing conditions. Crappy has better batting. Quite an even match imo, though crappy has taken a early lead in votes.Sorry just have to
Sir Vivs Richards who has a horrible average against Imran, yes. Or you can pretend that they never played against each other.
Stick with 34 in that case, still nowhere near good enough.
What countries are you including in your data for 34?
It's better than Brendan McCullum and Fleming's career average or averages in NZ/England/SA. And let's not even start on Steve Smith.
Viv in all matches involving Imran Khan.
Its the same as the average of those two. If you want to rank him the same, then you wont hear complains from me. Steve smith in the last three years has been greatly impressive but i suppose we are disregarding that as well.
He talks about excluding WI etc, so was wondering what all were included.
All matches vs Imran for 34. 19 if you consider WI,Eng and Aus (bowler friendly wickets).
I think Lloyd is a very good batsman though who often played at 6 and scored quickly. Kapil Dev is also a handy batsman. I disagree with viv and smith comparison. Smith is good but Viv even with the Imran struggles is still better. I don't even know if smith has a decent ODI score outside of Australia. And an average of 34 is actually not that bad tbh. Anything over 30 is good. We are talking of a few games here. Windies almost always chased in the 80s afaik so it wouldn't be possible to score a lot especially given scores of 200 was a big score then.
He had the slower in swinging Yorker but was never a true swing bowler like Akram or Waqar or someone like that. He was off the Holding, Garner mould in that he would bowl in with extreme pace and bounce and try to make them uncomfortable or. Not as good as them of course.
And yes warne is a trump card but players (like KP or smith) are great players of spin and are sensible enough not to throw their wickets away going after warne when they could get better of the bowlers who bowl at pace and use it to score faster. I think maxwell at that stage (the last 10 or so) would be definitely a good bet.
I don't think the pitch conditions in this match are anywhere similar to any of those countries.
Steve Smith in the last 3 years has feasted on the flattest wickets in all of international cricket. His record almost everywhere else fails to break a 30 average.
My logic was bowler friendly conditions, unless its only NZ in which they didnt play at all. Anyways this is useless, you cant make an argumetn based on conditions,individual matchups or stats. Just post hyperbole based on nothing .
he averages 30+ in eng and aus in ODIs.
In tests, he averages 47(eng),131(nz),67(sa) all of them are flat wickets?
Take it easy with the conditions. It's a random draw. It's not fair to cling onto a condition stat because we don't select players on how they fared in a sample of games in one country, we pick them on career/peak form. Viv is a GOAT player. No one is going to drop him because he averaged low in NZ.
Plus the Imran-Viv narrative is being over done. Imran has ten overs. He may not have much to bowl at Viv if the openers fire. Waqar or Steyn may be the match changers.
Lets be more objective about thism play style is the first barometer. Then use stats if you must to back it up.
Plus the Imran-Viv narrative is being over done. Imran has ten overs. He may not have much to bowl at Viv if the openers fire. Waqar or Steyn may be the match changers.
Lets be more objective about thism play style is the first barometer. Then use stats if you must to back it up.
Tests and ODI are 2 different animals man. Based on tests, Sunil Gavaskar is better than Sehwag but I doubt you would choose Gavaskar over Sehwag in a ODI game right?