The 3pm U.K. Blackout

[Revan]

Not sure for the last few seasons or so, but I know a couple of years ago United had the fewest 3 pm kick-off out of any team in the league. Presumably, that would change if they were televised.

I've posted in this thread earlier, and ultimately I would get rid of it as I think it's outdated and I question how much it would actually hurt the lower league clubs. With zero evidence to show for it, obviously, none of us know. But I'm not exactly mad that it still exists. There's still plenty of football on TV to satisfy anyone's needs, and I can always get a stream of it anyway. Which I guess would make me a criminal in your eyes!

The problem with this line of thought is that it was created in 1960s. Back then there was not much entertainment to choose from, was essentially watch football at home, go to pub or go with mates to local matches. It worked back then well enough.

Right now there is so much competition. Netflix et al., PlayStation/XBox, Youtube, Social Media and other forms of digital entertainment. So this rule all it does is either force people to do streaming (which is easy and high quality) or consume other entertainment instead of football. Most of kids are not simply gonna watch at the ground some awful football just cause their grandparents did so back then, when it is easier than ever to consume high quality entertainment. It is widely known than young generations are consuming less and less football compared to before, and these Stone Age policies just further encourage them to consume less football.

Again, it should be a matter of choice. Want to watch pub-level football live? Be my guest. Want to watch your favorite team in TV? Sure. Don’t want either but want to do something else? Why not.

 

[GBBQ]

Any channel in Ireland have it?

Premier Sport have it.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

The problem with this line of thought is that it was created in 1960s. Back then there was not much entertainment to choose from, was essentially watch football at home, go to pub or go with mates to local matches. It worked back then well enough.

Right now there is so much competition. Netflix et al., PlayStation/XBox, Youtube, Social Media and other forms of digital entertainment. So this rule all it does is either force people to do streaming (which is easy and high quality) or consume other entertainment instead of football. Most of kids are not simply gonna watch at the ground some awful football just cause their grandparents did so back then, when it is easier than ever to consume high quality entertainment. It is widely known than young generations are consuming less and less football compared to before, and these Stone Age policies just further encourage them to consume less football.

Again, it should be a matter of choice. Want to watch pub-level football live? Be my guest. Want to watch your favorite team in TV? Sure. Don’t want either but want to do something else? Why not.

Yeh I agree. For me the 3pm blackout is akin to a plaster on a gun wound. There’s already evidence to suggest that young people are less likely to go and watch a random lower league game and even football more generally. The blackout is the last gasp attempt by the older generation to try and save grass roots football and it’s generally an admirable cause that is worthwhile, I just think this goes about it the wrong way. People should have the choice of what they want to consume especially when other fans around the world can watch Utd easier than a domestic fan. What would make more sense is for more of the obscene money at the top level of football to be fed back into grass roots and the lower levels of the football pyramid. With more money even lower level clubs can continue to expand, improve the quality of their facilities and playing staff and ultimately attract people who want to go and watch them play.

I understand why people place so much importance on the lower levels, I just think forcing Premier League fans to sacrifice their own team is archaic.

 

[glazed]

As far as I'm aware it's not a crime to watch an illegal stream. Only hosting one is the illegal part.

I think it might be a civil offence - breach of copyright or something. So you couldn't be arrested but theoretically the rights holder could sue you.

I don't think it's even a civil offence to watch it on European satellite though.

 

[stw2022]

Should they not just permanently move games away from that time slot? I know everyone thought moving the cup final would be the end of the world but last I checked the children survived

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Change your IP address and sign up for DAZN in Canada. You can watch any game you want...

 

[BusbyMalone]

The problem with this line of thought is that it was created in 1960s. Back then there was not much entertainment to choose from, was essentially watch football at home, go to pub or go with mates to local matches. It worked back then well enough.

Right now there is so much competition. Netflix et al., PlayStation/XBox, Youtube, Social Media and other forms of digital entertainment. So this rule all it does is either force people to do streaming (which is easy and high quality) or consume other entertainment instead of football. Most of kids are not simply gonna watch at the ground some awful football just cause their grandparents did so back then, when it is easier than ever to consume high quality entertainment. It is widely known than young generations are consuming less and less football compared to before, and these Stone Age policies just further encourage them to consume less football.

Again, it should be a matter of choice. Want to watch pub-level football live? Be my guest. Want to watch your favorite team in TV? Sure. Don’t want either but want to do something else? Why not.

I agree with you here, though. I'm not advocating for it. As I said, I would bin it. I'm just saying it doesn't bother me that much. I'm all for choice, as you say

Not really the thread for this, but the younger generations consuming less football is another thing that always appears to be self-evident, but one that I'm very sceptical about. They consume it differently, for sure. Anyway, not to derail the thread...

 

[Sylar]

It should be trialled for a year, to actually gather data to see if there is a drop in lower league attendances

If anybody really wants to see United for example they will find a way
Likewise anybody going to a lower league game will not suddenly stop IMO if a Prem game goes to sky from illegal streams

 

[Castia]

Needs to change. Let sky and BT have their current TV deal but do a subscription package to show the remaining 3pm games on a Saturday and share the wealth with the lower leagues, they'll end up much better off.

 

[MrMarcello]

Will I be able visit a pub in Germany to see Ronaldo's return match?

 

[adexkola]

Maybe the 3pm slot should be reserved for lower league football? No PL games till 6 pm on a Saturday for example.

 

[Rolandofgilead]

The problem with this line of thought is that it was created in 1960s. Back then there was not much entertainment to choose from, was essentially watch football at home, go to pub or go with mates to local matches. It worked back then well enough.

Right now there is so much competition. Netflix et al., PlayStation/XBox, Youtube, Social Media and other forms of digital entertainment. So this rule all it does is either force people to do streaming (which is easy and high quality) or consume other entertainment instead of football. Most of kids are not simply gonna watch at the ground some awful football just cause their grandparents did so back then, when it is easier than ever to consume high quality entertainment. It is widely known than young generations are consuming less and less football compared to before, and these Stone Age policies just further encourage them to consume less football.

Again, it should be a matter of choice. Want to watch pub-level football live? Be my guest. Want to watch your favorite team in TV? Sure. Don’t want either but want to do something else? Why not.

Insulting my clubs level of football by calling in pub league negates all of your previous arguments to be honest.

For the record, the blackout of some description at least has been going longer than the 60s too. Except it was originally brought in, or at least discussed in parliament as early as 1928. Only, back then the discussions were over radio broadcasts of 1st division football. They didn't end up refusing to allow broadcasts, but they dud restrict them to regional broadcasts.

 

[Rolandofgilead]

Needs to change. Let sky and BT have their current TV deal but do a subscription package to show the remaining 3pm games on a Saturday and share the wealth with the lower leagues, they'll end up much better off.

In theory we would yeah, but ultimately the distribution of wealth would fall to the relevant leagues. With the amount of big ex football league clubs in our division, I'd have zero faith in it being distributed evenly.

 

[adexkola]

I was thinking similar. It is bonkers hearing fans in here wanting to bury the lower leagues only four months after they derided the owners of the big 6 for nearly doing the same

All because they want to see Ronaldo in a United kit for 301st time... seriously bratty

Very bratty

 

[Revan]

Insulting my clubs level of football by calling in pub league negates all of your previous arguments to be honest.

For the record, the blackout of some description at least has been going longer than the 60s too. Except it was originally brought in, or at least discussed in parliament as early as 1928. Only, back then the discussions were over radio broadcasts of 1st division football. They didn't end up refusing to allow broadcasts, but they dud restrict them to regional broadcasts.

It doesn’t negate though, because it is exactly that: pub-level. If it was a good level, you wouldn’t advocate not showing quality football in TV just in case some casual fans would show up to watch your club.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

In theory we would yeah, but ultimately the distribution of wealth would fall to the relevant leagues. With the amount of big ex football league clubs in our division, I'd have zero faith in it being distributed evenly.

Then put pressure on the authorities? We have shown as football fans that we hold power when we oppose something (the super league) so rather than sticking to this archaic ruling why don’t we demand that the footballing powers better distribute funds to the lower leagues? That’s a win win for all football fans.

 

[Castia]

In theory we would yeah, but ultimately the distribution of wealth would fall to the relevant leagues. With the amount of big ex football league clubs in our division, I'd have zero faith in it being distributed evenly.

Well it should be? the rules should be set in stone before this goes through with each team in each league receiving x% of the profits

Lower league teams keep their match day income plus they get a slice of the PL subscription service, in theory teams like Weymouth aren't going to lose many match going fans anyway so its a win-win

 

[Ixion]

The Premier League is the most successful and viewed league in the world, the English football pyramid is one of the most successful in world football, English football attendances have gone up fairly consistently over the past 20 years pre-Covid, it seems a bit dumb to say something is out of touch or out dated when that League is so successful.

 

[Rolandofgilead]

It doesn’t negate though, because it is exactly that: pub-level. If it was a good level, you wouldn’t advocate not showing quality football in TV just in case some casual fans would show up to watch your club.

I'm watching our league right now on BT Sport. They have a live game from our league every week. In fact, we're live Saturday week. So continue to show off that ignorance that you seem so proud of.

Then put pressure on the authorities? We have shown as football fans that we hold power when we oppose something (the super league) so rather than sticking to this archaic ruling why don’t we demand that the footballing powers better distribute funds to the lower leagues? That’s a win win for all football fans.

We as fans hold no power at all, we 'beat' the super league and the instantly reverted to the status quo. Not seen many protests lately, don't know about you.

Well it should be? the rules should be set in stone before this goes through with each team in each league receiving x% of the profits

Lower league teams keep their match day income plus they get a slice of the PL subscription service, in theory teams like Weymouth aren't going to lose many match going fans anyway so its a win-win

The national leagues voting system is a prime example. On any matters the league ask the member clubs to vote. As a National league club, every club gets one vote each. In the NLS/NLN, they get a total of 8 votes.

 

[fps]

It’s not outdated. You truly want to kill grassroots football in this country? Get rid of the blackout. Really what’s happened is the PL has put games on at literally any time to circumvent the spirit of the rule for years. But what can you do.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Purchase a VPN. Problem solved!

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

It’s not outdated. You truly want to kill grassroots football in this country? Get rid of the blackout. Really what’s happened is the PL has put games on at literally any time to circumvent the spirit of the rule for years. But what can you do.

What evidence is this based on?

 

[Penna]

It doesn’t negate though, because it is exactly that: pub-level. If it was a good level, you wouldn’t advocate not showing quality football in TV just in case some casual fans would show up to watch your club.

I don't think you understand the quality of football in the lower English leagues and the NL pyramid. Weymouth are just one step below League 2.

I have experience with non-league further down the pyramid, and even at step 7 (with Weymouth being in step 1) we were bound by all the FA rules and regulations, we had to have a proper ref whom we paid, register our players, submit formal documentation, have home and away kits, use real match balls etc etc.

This isn't just some kind of kick-about in the park with jumpers for goalposts.

 

[Sandikan]

Anyone know how many of Man United games are Saturday 3pm kick offs in the past decade or so?

This isn't a "gotcha", I'm genuinely wondering. It's gotta be really low, right?

Having 2 home Saturday 3pm games over 15 days is certainly incredibly rare!

 

[horsechoker]

I think the big teams just shouldn't play at Saturday at 3pm, your Manchester Uniteds, Liverpools, Chelseas etc. should never have fixtures at 3pm on a Saturday.

Put the likes of West Ham v Norwich on at that time unless the game takes on some importance or put City thrashing Watford 9-0 on at that time.

 

[Sandikan]

It doesn’t negate though, because it is exactly that: pub-level. If it was a good level, you wouldn’t advocate not showing quality football in TV just in case some casual fans would show up to watch your club.

The shimmering ignorance

 

[Revan]

I am sorry guys for disrespecting your clubs no one has heard their names and who play some shit version of rugby masqueraded as football. Considering that I am clearly wrong and they play awesome football, I wonder why you are so against high quality football showing up in TV when your club plays. Surely they play so nice that fans would still jump watching them instead of watching United or Liverpool in TV.

 

[duffer]

I am sorry guys...

Should've stopped there.

 

[horsechoker]

The funniest thing about this rule is that it also applies to foreign football, I remember some company who had the rights to La Liga a few years ago couldn't show the first part of a game that started at 4:45pm.

 

[Chipper]

Needs to change. Let sky and BT have their current TV deal but do a subscription package to show the remaining 3pm games on a Saturday and share the wealth with the lower leagues, they'll end up much better off.

You don't think Sky and BT would sue the Premier League for large amounts of money if that happened?

They bid what they bid for the rights on the premise that only a specific number of games were going to be broadcast. The limited number of slots available creates a scarcity and drives up the value of each package that was bid on compared to if all games were going to be shown to begin with. To then not even allow them to bid on the 3pm matches on top having taken their money for the other slots would give them a second reason the sue the hell out of the league.

 

[stw2022]

2005 was the last time anyone said “The United game isn’t on TV, let’s spend the afternoon at your mother’s sweetheart”

It protects the lower league in this pretend world that elderly, out of touch suits who sell the rights on these terms want to pretend we still live in .

 

[Sandikan]

I was thinking similar. It is bonkers hearing fans in here wanting to bury the lower leagues only four months after they derided the owners of the big 6 for nearly doing the same

All because they want to see Ronaldo in a United kit for 301st time... seriously bratty

It's big club internet fans. They don't give a toss about lower leagues.

 

[Castia]

You don't think Sky and BT would sue the Premier League for large amounts of money if that happened?

They bid what they bid for the rights on the premise that only a specific number of games were going to be broadcast. The limited number of slots available creates a scarcity and drives up the value of each package that was bid on compared to if all games were going to be shown to begin with. To then not even allow them to bid on the 3pm matches on top having taken their money for the other slots would give them a second reason the sue the hell out of the league.

Well that’s all down to negotiations isn’t it they’ll probably sell the 3pm games as another package open to anybody to bid on although they’d probably get blown out of the water by Amazon regardless.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

The difference is ridiculous for a very simple reason. A comparison of 5th tier attendance between Germany and England has a massive asterisk that makes it useless I'd say. Teams in the English 5th division are the 96th to 119th best teams in the country, in the pyramid as there is only one league at each level. Because the German 4th division is regionalised into 5 leagues it contains 100 teams. This means that the best teams in the German 5th division is about 200th in the league pyramid and as there are 14 leagues in the 5th division assuming that they average 20 teams per league the worst side in the league is about the 500th best side in Germany. Throw in the B teams can play in leagues and really it would be a massive shock if it wasn't the case that the English 5th division had higher attendance.

The French regionalise their leagues at the fourth tier as well, the Spanish at the third tier and Italy is also at the third tier. England is unique in how long it takes to regionalise and it means that the quality of club in the 5th division is much higher and the attendance also should be. Throw in some league containing B teams and you can't really make valid attendance comparisons below the third division. Claiming that the difference is due to TV blackout rules and not the number of leagues at each level is completely wrong.

Has this post received an upvote yet? Brilliant.

Also don't the games before and after the blackout impact attendance anyway? How easy is it to watch a game that lasts until around 2.30 and still make an entirely different game by 3.00? Or attend a 3pm game and still be home in time to see the 5.30 kick off?

Exactly. In any built up area you can’t decide to head across your town/city on a whim to watch a game. If so many people were making this decision the attendances at lower league level would be larger surely.

If the livelihood of one club is built on the restrictions on another it doesn’t look to be sustainable.

I think the lower league fans are being massively disrespected when it comes to this 3pm blackout argument. I know loads of non league fans and they are as diehard in their support as fans of top teams.

PL 3pm Saturday matches being on TV wouldn’t stop real fans from going to watch their lower league teams play.

Great post.

These clubs have their own fans, yes there are a number of ‘casual’ fans that will have ties by location, family etc. who will go to the games but to say they ‘need’ fans of ‘elite’ clubs simply doesn’t stand up to the fact a lot of newer fans have no intention of going to OT let alone a lower league game.

 

[roonster09]

Is there a similar rule in any other country or any other sport?

This was always a very interesting rule but with no data to support pros and cons, as this rule has been in place for decades so it's near impossible to prove how much this rule helped the lower league attendance.

 

[TheLiverBird]

Great

Has this post received an upvote yet? Brilliant.

Exactly. In any built up area you can’t decide to head across your town/city on a whim to watch a game. If so many people were making this decision the attendances at lower league level would be larger surely.

If the livelihood of one club is built on the restrictions on another it doesn’t look to be sustainable.

Great post.

These clubs have their own fans, yes there are a number of ‘casual’ fans that will have ties by location, family etc. who will go to the games but to say they ‘need’ fans of ‘elite’ clubs simply doesn’t stand up to the fact a lot of newer fans have no intention of going to OT let alone a lower league game.

Great post

and so are the post's you quoted

bang on

 

[TrueRed1999]

Would have hoped Covid would have put an end to this. It’s outdated and should have been scrapped a long time ago.

Should have been scrapped long along and now will be streaming the game, I thought Amazon Prime could sort this as they were able to host all games before which worked well. Things need to change.

 

[stevoc]

Is there a similar rule in any other country or any other sport?

This was always a very interesting rule but with no data to support pros and cons, as this rule has been in place for decades so it's near impossible to prove how much this rule helped the lower league attendance.

The NFL had local black-outs but they were to encourage people to go and watch the game that would have been on TV. Not as a way to protect the attendance levels in other leagues. I believe they ditched their Blackouts a few years ago though.

 

[Sandikan]

Also don't the games before and after the blackout impact attendance anyway? How easy is it to watch a game that lasts until around 2.30 and still make an entirely different game by 3.00? Or attend a 3pm game and still be home in time to see the 5.30 kick off?
.

People watch the tv games at the club they're at, at pubs nearby, or get this...live close enough to the club they support to...get home/get to the ground after!

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

Is there a similar rule in any other country or any other sport?

This was always a very interesting rule but with no data to support pros and cons, as this rule has been in place for decades so it's near impossible to prove how much this rule helped the lower league attendance.

UEFA's Article 48 is only enforced by 3 of its member states. England, Scotland, and Montenegro. With so few countries actually implementing it, I'd wonder if UEFA have the power to just scrap it? If they took a vote on it, surely it'd be gone?


There's a decent chance that the blackout does have a positive impact, and if that's the case, it should remain 100%. But without trialling an alternative, how will we know? I think there is progress to be made to offer the best accessibility to football to both match goers and the TV viewership, and I currently don't think we've made steps forward compared to other countries, and also other sports. Match going is still more expensive than it should be, and the subscriptions required for TV viewership are both very costly and lacking in value for those who don't support the top 6 clubs. We could be doing better.

I like the idea of PL 3pm kickoffs being pay per view, with the English football system getting a substantial cut of the revenue. You're not quite opening the floodgates of openly televising everything, there is still a barrier, and you're supporting the English football system instead of piracy and illegitimate means. I know they've trialled PPV before and it bombed, but it wasn't introduced for this reason. It bombed because people were expected to pay a lot more for the same product. PPV for games we currently don't already have in the TV package could work, and at least gives people a legitimate option.