The “Ole In” Brigade

romufc said:
Love how no one is criticising Ole for not subbing off Pogba at half time after he picked up a yellow card..

Pogba was on a tight rope after getting one after 7 minutes. He was playing CM where Fred played against PSG.
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I mean...I’m very pro-Ole (I created this thread!) but that’s hardly a like-for-like comparison is it!

Fred should have been sent off in the first half and the referee had already given him more leeway than he could reasonably have expected. Plus, you have to be able to make tackles (and fouls) against a team like PSG if you’re playing CDM.

Pogba was on a yellow but it was a “standard” nothing yellow and would likely have been allowed at least one more foul before he was in serious danger of being sent off. Plus, he’s not really a tackler.
 
b82REZ said:
Do you have coaching badges? Because if that's the requirement before we're allowed to criticise or debate the manager we may as well close the forum now.
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I'm not the one saying for certain whether he is right or wrong. It's fine to have an opinion, but it's arrogance to assume to know better.
 
Lentwood said:
I mean...I’m very pro-Ole (I created this thread!) but that’s hardly a like-for-like comparison is it!

Fred should have been sent off in the first half and the referee had already given him more leeway than he could reasonably have expected. Plus, you have to be able to make tackles (and fouls) against a team like PSG if you’re playing CDM.

Pogba was on a yellow but it was a “standard” nothing yellow and would likely have been allowed at least one more foul before he was in serious danger of being sent off. Plus, he’s not really a tackler.
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How often does Pogba make clumsy tackles?

Playing in a 2 in midfield, you will have to break up play on the counter, there was a few times Pogba had to pull out of tackles in that game.

Pogba may not be a tackler but he does give away alot of fouls on the counter.
 
b82REZ said:
Do you have coaching badges? Because if that's the requirement before we're allowed to criticise or debate the manager we may as well close the forum now.
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I find it somewhat funny when we criticize Ole for in-game management. Is it great? No, but it's not bad as well. If the side has 7 comeback wins in 19, and I think apart from the Leicester and Spurs game, we haven't really lost the lead in any game, you don't have sufficient data points to criticize him for that. Of course, some of the subs can be made earlier, but that's about it. If you want to compare his decision making with any random member on this forum, let's go to matchday threads, where people start moaning after every lineup announcement (and of course it should be much better as well).

Managers are going to get things wrong, even SAF didn't get everything right. But as long as these errors are quite few, I don't think it's a valid stick to beat him with.
 
mu4c_20le said:
I'm not the one saying for certain whether he is right or wrong. It's fine to have an opinion, but it's arrogance to assume to know better.
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Isn't that what you're doing though? You feel like you know better, or at least enough to try and silence debate around the manager. You're arrogantly trying to shut down arguments you don't like, even though you can't provide any evidence to the contrary.

Truth is no one on this forum know. Anecdotal evidence suggests Solksjaer is very slow to make changes in games. Obviously there are exceptions to that rule, but generally we do make late subs and that in turn means they rarely impact the game.

Solksjaer has faults, most managers do. While he has undoubtedly improved in a lot of areas, he isn't completely infallible.
 
romufc said:
Love how no one is criticising Ole for not subbing off Pogba at half time after he picked up a yellow card..

Pogba was on a tight rope after getting one after 7 minutes. He was playing CM where Fred played against PSG.
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Fred's was a unique situation where he really should have gotten a red card in the first half, so it was always likely that the ref would be quite happy to give him a second yellow. Even so I agreed with Ole trusting him to start the second half and play another 10 minutes or so, but he should have come off around the 55-60 minute mark.

Any old normal yellow card and the ref does the opposite - tries not to give the second unless it's really blatant. Obviously there's still a small element of risk but it's really not the same.
 
b82REZ said:
Isn't that what you're doing though? You feel like you know better, or at least enough to try and silence debate around the manager. You're arrogantly trying to shut down arguments you don't like, even though you can't provide any evidence to the contrary.
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Not at all. When an opinion is presented as a fact it is no longer an opinion. And I asked a question whether these are professional opinions , never tried to shut anything down.

I think the fact that Solskjaer has not really achieved much as a manager makes him an easy target for people to criticize and subsequent feel like they know better. You sound like you might have some experience, seeing as you are getting quite touchy at my questioning of such opinions.
 
MadDogg said:
Fred's was a unique situation where he really should have gotten a red card in the first half, so it was always likely that the ref would be quite happy to give him a second yellow. Even so I agreed with Ole trusting him to start the second half and play another 10 minutes or so, but he should have come off around the 55-60 minute mark.

Any old normal yellow card and the ref does the opposite - tries not to give the second unless it's really blatant. Obviously there's still a small element of risk but it's really not the same.
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The one thing I have seen of Ole is when the game is tight, he doesn't want to make a change, he has his reasons for that, some may agree some may disagree.

I disagree, like in games Vs Liverpool, could have moved Pogba in and brought Greenwood on or brought Matic and Rashford earlier against Fulham.

But I also do see the reasoning why he keeps it like that. The way he was treated was just a bit over the top in that situation.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Not at all. When an opinion is presented as a fact it is no longer an opinion. And I asked a question whether these are professional opinions , never tried to shut anything down.

I think the fact that Solskjaer has not really achieved much as a manager makes him an easy target for people to criticize and subsequent feel like they know better. You sound like you might have some experience, seeing as you are getting quite touchy at my questioning of such opinions.
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But you're not his personal protector. The poster you replied to stated his opinion. Not a fact. Your confusing positive and negative opinions and assuming anyone that isn't only praising the manager is creating false facts to somehow try and persuade people to change their view.

The comment was valid and holds plenty of merit. Generally Ole reacts slowly in games. That has been to our detriment in some games, in others it hasn't been too much of an issue.

Rather than adopting your holier than thou approach to debating, why don't you offer alternative information? The funny thing is the poster you quoted was actually very positive about Ole, but mentioned one thing he feels he needs to improve on. Are we not allowed to mention areas our manager may be weak in?
 
b82REZ said:
But you're not his personal protector. The poster you replied to stated his opinion. Not a fact. Your confusing positive and negative opinions and assuming anyone that isn't only praising the manager is creating false facts to somehow try and persuade people to change their view.

The comment was valid and holds plenty of merit. Generally Ole reacts slowly in games. That has been to our detriment in some games, in others it hasn't been too much of an issue.

Rather than adopting your holier than thou approach to debating, why don't you offer alternative information? The funny thing is the poster you quoted was actually very positive about Ole, but mentioned one thing he feels he needs to improve on. Are we not allowed to mention areas our manager may be weak in?
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See, there's your problem, you are still entrenched in that Ole In vs Ole Out mindset. This isn't a war. The reason I replied to that poster knowing full well that he is Ole in is because he used the same wording as many in the match threads, where people are understandably reactionary and knee jerking while watching a match. The problem is that these statements get repeated over and over until people start taking them as fact. So thats why I want to know if there are posters here that genuinely know more than your average fan, because there are actually people involved in real world coaching here.
 
mu4c_20le said:
See, there's your problem, you are still entrenched in that Ole In vs Ole Out mindset. This isn't a war. The reason I replied to that poster knowing full well that he is Ole in is because he used the same wording as many in the match threads, where people are understandably reactionary and knee jerking while watching a match. The problem is that these statements get repeated over and over until people start taking them as fact. So thats why I want to know if there are posters here that genuinely know more than your average fan, because there are actually people involved in real world coaching here.
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I've not once mentioned In or Out.

You're conflating different issues here.
 
b82REZ said:
As in anybody who wants to criticise the manager. God forbid even an Inner.

Are you sure you've not hurt yourself making that stretch?
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I've already reiterated numerous times that I have no problem with opinions or criticism, only when people have arrived at a foregone conclusion. I don't know how to make this any more clearer to you, when you've already determined that I, a.) shut down debates, b.) know better than the manager, c.) assume people are creating false facts to persuade others. They've persuaded only themselves, and I'm trying to find out why.
 
b82REZ said:
But you're not his personal protector. The poster you replied to stated his opinion. Not a fact. Your confusing positive and negative opinions and assuming anyone that isn't only praising the manager is creating false facts to somehow try and persuade people to change their view.

The comment was valid and holds plenty of merit. Generally Ole reacts slowly in games. That has been to our detriment in some games, in others it hasn't been too much of an issue.

Rather than adopting your holier than thou approach to debating, why don't you offer alternative information? The funny thing is the poster you quoted was actually very positive about Ole, but mentioned one thing he feels he needs to improve on. Are we not allowed to mention areas our manager may be weak in?
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But how can you say he’s weak in that area. You have no idea of his and the coaches thought process during these times in games. As @romufc said, they seem hesitant to make changes in tight periods of the game, I agree and thinks it’s sometimes to see how the next five ten mins to play out, sometimes to see what the other manager does first. This isn’t a weakness
 
Zlatan 7 said:
But how can you say he’s weak in that area. You have no idea of his and the coaches thought process during these times in games. As @romufc said, they seem hesitant to make changes in tight periods of the game, sometimes to see how the next five ten mins to play out, sometimes to see what the other manager does first. This isn’t a weakness
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How can you say he's strong in that area? You have no idea of his and the coaches thought processes during these times. As @SteveCoppellFan said, they seem hesitant to make changes in tight games which has cost us (see PSG) and may have made certain games more comfortable than the backs to wall defending we have on occasion witnessed when seeing out games. Allowing another manager to influence the game before him can cause us numerous issues. This isn't a strength.

Works both ways see.

You seem incapable of recognising the good and BAD of the manager. It's a very valid point and one that has repeatedly brought up throughout his tenure. The old excuse was the bench was too weak to rely on. Now we have a very strong bench so the narrative is being changed to Ole is waiting to react to the other team.
 
This whole 'in-game management' myth really needs to be put to bed now. There is simply no justification for it other than 'he's not making subs when I think he should be making subs' which if course is not an argument at all. What are the parameters that can be used fairly to judge this anyway? In-game management after all is surely just an adjustment made - be it tactical, with substitutions, or a half time motivational discussion - that helps a team deliver a result during a match, right?

Well, currently points gained from a losing position looks like this:

United - 21
Liverpool - 10
Leicester - 8
Chelsea - 7
Spurs - 6
City - 2
Arsenal - 1

So there's that.....

We are also ranked 2nd in goals scored in the second half. Our goal difference in the second half is also ranked 2nd. In fact, in pretty much every metric we are ranked very high in terms of second half performance.

If we looked at these statistics from a neutral viewpoint, in another circumstance, and without bias or agenda we would conclude that this manager is actually the best in the league at so-called 'in-game management'. There are other factors too of course. It would be remiss not to give our players equal credit, but ultimately something is happening in our dressing room at half-time that is producing an improvement.

So much in football is random and unpredictable though. Last season we only conceded 17 first half goals all season. This season 15 already. Last season we scored 11 goals in the last 15 minutes. This season 10 already. Its really quite pointless reading too much into these stats and concluding anything unless those statistics are constant, and very few things in football are ever constant. All that matters is how many points you are winning.

It does mean though that the on-going criticism of Ole in this area isn't really based on anything other than a feeling, and that feeling originates (IMO) from certain peoples on-going reluctance to let themselves believe that Ole belongs at this level, but that's a different conversation.
 
Zlatan 7 said:
But how can you say he’s weak in that area. You have no idea of his and the coaches thought process during these times in games. As @romufc said, they seem hesitant to make changes in tight periods of the game, I agree and thinks it’s sometimes to see how the next five ten mins to play out, sometimes to see what the other manager does first. This isn’t a weakness
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When we are losing, he makes changes at half time because what he worked on isn't working. So he is not afraid of making changes when we need to.

As you will see in alot of big games, unless the teams completely not performing, changes will be made.

When you have prepared a team to play and they are out on the pitch, they are used to the rythmn, they know their jobs in games.

Against Liverpool, some criticised for not making changes, we stuck to the game plan and created 2 chances after 70 mins? Some people would have taken Bruno or Rashford off by then.

Some people think its Fifa where you have to make a sub at 60 mins if its 0-0 or 1-0 to freshen things up, bring on more pace and change the game.
 
b82REZ said:
How can you say he's strong in that area? You have no idea of his and the coaches thought processes during these times. As @SteveCoppellFan said, they seem hesitant to make changes in tight games which has cost us (see PSG) and may have made certain games more comfortable than the backs to wall defending we have on occasion witnessed when seeing out games. Allowing another manager to influence the game before him can cause us numerous issues. This isn't a strength.

Works both ways see.

You seem incapable of recognising the good and BAD of the manager. It's a very valid point and one that has repeatedly brought up throughout his tenure. The old excuse was the bench was too weak to rely on. Now we have a very strong bench so the narrative is being changed to Ole is waiting to react to the other team.
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I never said he was strong
 
b82REZ said:
You seem incapable of recognising the good and BAD of the manager. It's a very valid point and one that has repeatedly brought up throughout his tenure. The old excuse was the bench was too weak to rely on. Now we have a very strong bench so the narrative is being changed to Ole is waiting to react to the other team
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I get what you are trying to say here but if you continuously make changes after 60 mins, it means you dont trust the team you have selected? The excuse about the bench is to change things when things are not going well, how many games where we have been a goal down has he failed to change things?

The bench strength is not only for making subs in a game, its rotation from game to game too, if you look through the season we have probably rotated more than anyone else in the league.
 
Zlatan 7 said:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I love these fans. We’ve been on a steady curve of progression for the past two years with a consistency coming into our gameplay and results. signings adding to the first 11 and team morale at a good high.

This was tried to be put across a number of times by a number of fans to those crying Ole out but ignored and just refuted with made up headlines.

Oh well, Maybe learn that in future not all fans who disagree with you is not because they do not support the club but they can actually see development.
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No we haven't. We've been up and down for large parts of his tenure. The man was so close to being sacked after the Burnley loss and no one would have complained.

The progression correlates with the signing of Bruno - we can't deny that hes been the catalyst. Pre-Bruno we were a shambles so lets stop acting like we weren't. This period of November to January is the best, imo, of Ole. I'd wish we'd improve in some aspects but hes got so much right that he hadn't before. More than anything else, he's figured out how to be consistent, hes getting so much out of Pogba, his faith in De Gea, the improvement of Shaw.
 
romufc said:
I get what you are trying to say here but if you continuously make changes after 60 mins, it means you dont trust the team you have selected?
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What bizzare logic.

So you're telling me Ole is delaying his subs to protect the fragile egos of those he chose to start rather than hauling them off for underperforming?
 
Zlatan 7 said:
Yes, that’s a constant baseless criticism, why do you think this debate is occurring.
See @Bilbo great post for why.
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Because you've got precious over criticism and conflated that as people wanting the manager sacked rather than recognising it is an area he could improve on.

Fergie regularly got criticised on here yet the level of defence towards Ole is unbelievable. You act like he's completely infallible. He's improved over his time here immeasurably, but there are still areas he needs to work on.

Not that hard, surely?
 
Di Maria's angel said:
No we haven't. We've been up and down for large parts of his tenure. The man was so close to being sacked after the Burnley loss and no one would have complained.

The progression correlates with the signing of Bruno - we can't deny that hes been the catalyst. Pre-Bruno we were a shambles so lets stop acting like we weren't. This period of November to January is the best, imo, of Ole. I'd wish we'd improve in some aspects but hes got so much right that he hadn't before. More than anything else, he's figured out how to be consistent, hes getting so much out of Pogba, his faith in De Gea, the improvement of Shaw.
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Of course replacing lingard or pereira was going to lead to better results and performances. Being consistent comes with that.

nice to see Ole finally getting some recognition in my opinion, I think he’s done wonders here
 
b82REZ said:
What bizzare logic.

So you're telling me Ole is delaying his subs to protect the fragile egos of those he chose to start rather than hauling them off for underperforming?
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Let me tell you what has happened in some games.

Rashford been poor against Burnely - comes up with assist
Rashford poor against Wolves - scores a winner
Rashford poor against Southampton - Assist

Okay now you would say swap McTominay for Donny... how many games have we conceded late goals?

You do not make subs to please fans like you... alot of managers do this where in tight games, they do not make subs at 60 minutes because fans think its FIFA.
 
b82REZ said:
Because you've got precious over criticism and conflated that as people wanting the manager sacked rather than recognising it is an area he could improve on.

Fergie regularly got criticised on here yet the level of defence towards Ole is unbelievable. You act like he's completely infallible. He's improved over his time here immeasurably, but there are still areas he needs to work on.

Not that hard, surely?
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No I didn’t, I don’t think, I’m sure you’re making that up.

I thought I picked up on a baseless argument and never mentioned the sack. Seems you’re a little precious that you’ve been picked up on this baseless opinion
 
SteveCoppellFan said:
cannot hide the fact that his game management needs huge improvements, he takes way too long to make adjustments / changes during a game.
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I’m not uncritically jumping on your train. Your conclusion is very subjective. Many of us disagree on this issue, and I suppose it’s no right and wrong answer.

Perhaps Ole and the coaching team is very happy with how they’ve solved the “in game management”, and perhaps Its more consensus about “in game management” (principles) among coaches then among supporters.

It can also be discussed how much “in game management” really matters in modern football. I remember I’ve read articles (science) questioning the effect of in game management.

Another relevant example is that active and eccentric coaches (jumping) on the sideline often are perceived as better “in-game managers” than quite or calm coaches, but in reality this perception is wrong.

I don’t think supporters have to learn coaching teams how to do in-game management. We don’t have to advise a Formel 1 driver how to steer his car! But we can ask questions if we don’t understand.
 
romufc said:
Let me tell you what has happened in some games.

Rashford been poor against Burnely - comes up with assist
Rashford poor against Wolves - scores a winner
Rashford poor against Southampton - Assist

Okay now you would say swap McTominay for Donny... how many games have we conceded late goals?

You do not make subs to please fans like you... alot of managers do this where in tight games, they do not make subs at 60 minutes because fans think its FIFA.
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Ahh the old FIFA defence.

Just because he's kept underperfoming players on who have popped up with a goal or assist doesn't make him justified in that decision. We're entering into the realms of whataboutery now.

Your equating the rare expections to justify his slow reactions in games.
 
Zlatan 7 said:
No I didn’t, I don’t think, I’m sure you’re making that up.

I thought I picked up on a baseless argument and never mentioned the sack. Seems you’re a little precious that you’ve been picked up on this baseless opinion
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It's not baseless though, that the fecking point.
 
b82REZ said:
Ahh the old FIFA defence.

Just because he's kept underperfoming players on who have popped up with a goal or assist doesn't make him justified in that decision. We're entering into the realms of whataboutery now.

Your equating the rare expections to justify his slow reactions in games.
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How is not justified when we have scored so many late goals with players who have had poor games?

Which game would you say he failed to make a change early enough? and which players?
 
M
SteveCoppellFan said:
I am and always will be a huge Ole fan, that will never change.

Its good to see United at the top right now, mainly because that will relieve some of the pressure that was mounting on him a few weeks back.

However, even the biggest Ole fans out there cannot hide the fact that his game management needs huge improvements, he takes way too long to make adjustments / changes during a game.

Are there signs that he is improving as a manager ? .. I would say yes there is, so hopefully we see further improvements as the season progresses.

One thing is for sure, the players have not downed tools for him, if anything they have upped their game for a manager that was struggling somewhat ( granted there are 1 or 2 that have gone backwards ) .... but overall its good to see players backing a manager that was not exactly crushing it.
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Modern football is perfecting plan A and throwing everything at it with the law of averages approach.
Pep rarely changed his approach when dominating, its at the point where they concede first and they do not win and it isnt that big of a deal.
Klopp was plan A throughout last year as well. Behind, in front, didnt matter. It was the same approach.
Zidane dominated Europe in the same manner as well.
All this adjusting etc seems to be a myth these days.
Modern football seems to be stick at what you're good at for 90 minutes and it makes sense. Why play a style thats worse for your team when you need it?
 
romufc said:
How is not justified when we have scored so many late goals with players who have had poor games?

Which game would you say he failed to make a change early enough? and which players?
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I mean I could go back and probably pick a few games. But let's just stick with the obvious one PSG.

Needed a draw, kept a player on that was lucky to not already have received a red card and it cost us the match. It's something I feel he's learnt from but it undoubtedly cost us, massively.

Who's to say we wouldn't have ended up winning more comfortably if he'd taken Rashford off and gave Greenwood some minutes. Like I said we're now in the realms of whataboutery.
 
There are probably loads of posts from the past where I look like a dope because I thought he should've been sacked but in my defense, it wasn't me, my account was actually hacked by an idiot. Long live Ole, never doubted him lads.
 
b82REZ said:
Because I'm taking to you, and I have that particular poster on ignore.
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Ah ok, I thought it was convenient you ignored his well written post and was just focusing on my tit for tat with you.
 
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