I must have thicker skin that you then.
Christ some of you must need to wear ear muffs when you visit OT because some the assessments of our players and managers by fans are much worse than saying they're a charlatan.
The “Ole In” Brigade
- Thread starter Lentwood
- Start date
I must have thicker skin that you then.
Christ some of you must need to wear ear muffs when you visit OT because some the assessments of our players and managers by fans are much worse than saying they're a charlatan.
Please tell me one sentence when you are calling someone a charlatan isn't an insult ?
Especially knowing this is the definition of charlatan: A charlatan (also called a swindler or mountebank) is a person practicing quackery or some similar confidence trick or deception in order to obtain money, fame, or other advantages via some form of pretense or deception. Synonyms for charlatan include shyster, quack, or faker
Of course it's an insult, regardless of whether you're offended by being called it or not.
Yeah context is important. We were without Pogba, I think McT was injured as well, martial had missed quite a bit, and our underlying stats at that moment were not really that bad - we were 4th in nearly every underlying stat.
Ofcourse you might have been looking at results then, but in that case, you must be elated now, which does not seem to be the case
Fitness was the single most important thing Ole harped on from day one. Well before the fall-off in that first half-season he had, he was preaching it. I think he knew what was going to happen and had accepted it. Ole made a lot of long-term decisions that adversely affected short-term performance. He really put himself on the line with that. It's paying off now.
On the Fred/PSG thing, I took it as his trust in Fred. It bothered me a lot less than it seemed to bother most. As you pointed out, we were already down 2-1 when he got booked the second time.
In fairness - there is a difference in how players perform on the field. If Rashford gets a yellow you don't expect him to get another yellow, same with Pogba. Fred and Bailly are different players - their strength (and weakness) are the way they charge into situations. So if Fred or Bailly get a yellow in the first 15 minutes of a game - there is reason to be more concerned than if Rashford, Pogba or Maguire get it.
Never assume.
Of course I'm elated. This idea that anyone who has criticised, or god forbid "insulted" him, is somehow upset we're currently top of the league. It tedious and boring seeing all the sanctimonious posts and same suspects circling any posts than don't tow the company line.
It was tedious and boring watching what appeared to be children crying about who our manager was for two years and moaning about baseless things.
it’s funny now that that’s just ‘calling a spade a spade’
I didn't complain about who our manager WAS. I complained about how he was performing. Massive difference.
Calling someone a charlatan suggests otherwise.
Atleast you’re enjoying it now
No it doesn't. But don't let that stop you pushing that agenda.
It’s no agenda
I just find it funny how much shot is thrown at Ole because he’s not a big name or in flavour manager.
you seem to want to use context when you insult him but ignore context for the reason for insulting. I’m done now, you seem the kind to never admit any fault, ignore the well thought out posts and always justify everything, it’s pointless to continue.
Yep, I agreee. Well you could see that Ole was taking a long term approach last season with the players he got rid and the players he gave game time to. Like I have said previously, some paid off, some didn't, no one gets 100% decisions right.
The one thing that no one can discredit him for is his squad management and building a team morale that is probably one of the best in the league even when things were going badly.
Yes, in the heat of the moment we all will be annoyed but what Ole has done in his reign, is trust. Once you gain his trust, he will trust the players.
If you are a player and have a few bad games or mistakes, you will have confidence going into the next match if you know the manager trusts you.
It’s no agenda
I just find it funny how much shot is thrown at Ole because he’s not a big name or in flavour manager.
you seem to want to use context when you insult him but ignore context for the reason for insulting. I’m done now, you seem the kind to never admit any fault, ignore the well thought out posts and always justify everything, it’s pointless to continue.
But you're interpreting it that way.
While I'm sure some posters have said that they are most definitely in the minority, to the point I can't think of one person who is unhappy that Ole is our manager because of his name, but disappointed at how he's performed.
You've taken that stance and tried to apply a one size fits all approach to anyone who has criticised Ole. That's an agenda.
| Pogba | Fred | |
| 18 /19 fouls | 54 (35 apps) | 25 (17 apps) |
| 18 /19 yellow cards | 6 | 2 |
| 19/20 fouls | 26 (16 apps) | 42 (29 apps) |
| 19/20 yellow | 1 | 8 |
| 20/21 fouls | 22 (14 apps) | 27 (16 apps) |
| 20/21 yellows | 3 | 2 |
They are very similar in way in the number of fouls they make. So why would you trust Pogba more than Fred? As a player, you need to have the managers trust.
Also, you say Pogba changes his game if he is on a yellow?
Fred has had 2 suspensions in his career from picking up 2 yellow cards and Pogba has 2.
Pogba has got 2 red cards v Fred 0.
You've had a shocker here, just hold your hands up and admit you got your assessment of Ole badly wrong, makes you sound silly trying to defend your comments now
You've had a shocker here, just hold your hands up and admit you got your assessment of Ole badly wrong, makes you sound silly trying to defend your comments now
I'm not apologising for saying something two years a go thay was a very accurate statement at the time.
you can call me what you want, and frankly I couldn’t care less - but that’s doesn’t mean it’s not an insult.
just shows how over dramatic you were.
Doubt it, you are offended by posts criticizing 'Ole Out' posters. Doubt you wouldn't be offended if someone calls you con artist in whatever field you are working in.
I dont think anyone cares about people changing their viewpoint. Hell, it'd be stupid to have that irrespective of the circumstances, and no one here has vowed to defend Ole at all costs. What people are pointing out is the fact that the goalposts keep shifting, and what is being looked at to analyze performance keeps changing.
For example, for me, it has always been about performances and underlying stats, team profile and continuous improvement. That's all I care about. I don't mind if we finish 15th as long as other points are getting satisfied on these fronts. And that was the reason why I and a lot of the other people on here went Mou out in his 2nd season.
For you and the doubters, this methodology has changed consistently. It was results, transfers, then breaking low blocks, then consistency, and now game management. Some go on about transfers, not playing x player in some game and blah blah. And that's where all these posts are coming from.
If results was your sole criteria for judging then, you can't really be criticizing Ole now. Simple
I think that sums it up pretty well.
We as fans are reactionary and change our opinion all the time, that's how it is. Last season Martial was our main CF and at the start, now most would agree Cavani needs to start. This is because we judge it on here and now.
With the manager, we have to take both short term but broader view too. He came in at a time when whatever we did failed, signed WC talent, got the best managers, got young talent, got proven PL players... we went into games with players playing so far out of position there was no sign of improvement or long term planning, it was Jose getting through 1 game at a time.
The whole atmosphere was toxic, players being thrown under the bus and what not.
Ole came in steadied the ship and got the job, rightly or wrongly he did.
Last season, he said, forget the short term approach, I am planning 2/3 years ahead, get rid of players and start to bring in players that will play for the club, care for the results.
We got top 4 last season which was probably the aim, fans said we were lucky because of covid and injuries to chelsea and Leicester. Okay fine.
This season, didnt get the players he wanted, clearly wanted a RW and CB, instead of crying about it, he made it work, gets to top of the league when alot of people predicted 4th or below.
The reason he is top is because the league is shit I am told? Liverpool won the title by 20 odd points and league was shit.
This season, the difference between top to 10th isnt much, so is it shit or is it competitive? How often do you see teams beat other teams 3/4 nil?
No - I am not saying Pogba changes his game - I am saying Pogba isn't the kind of person who throws himself into tackles. Fred works harder, does more to win back the ball. As a result of this, he is more likely to get yellow carded.
So embarrassing for the poster.
Talked that much keek he's drowning in it. Great to see he now pretending to not be so focal, but has his doubts
18 months. 2 years. You even posted the date. It hasn’t even been 13 months. But we can call I three years if that really makes any difference.
You really care a lot about the thickness of skin, don’t you?
Well I’ll tell you something, Mr.
I have very thick skin. Great thickness.
People say I have the thickest skin. The very best.
You’re just a skin charlatan with regular thickness skin. Very average skin. Even verging on thin skin.
What? They're perfect examples of the decision being justified.
If it's not an insult, then what is it, a compliment?
That champs league group finish really pissed me off. Just look at us now there’s no way we’d be knocked out if we were like this back then .
I think OGS has probably earnt the right to continue in the job for at least the next 18 months.
No need for a contract extensio, the club just needs to back him and see what he can deliver.
No trophies in the cabinet yet, but he has done a more than decent job, and deserves to be supported by the club and the fan base.
No need for a contract extensio, the club just needs to back him and see what he can deliver.
No trophies in the cabinet yet, but he has done a more than decent job, and deserves to be supported by the club and the fan base.
No need for extension? How about some respect and commitment from the club towards the manager?
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Yeah no defence for calling someone a charlatan and then saying it’s not personal.
Well said. Constantly the arguments against have shifted and changed and when each is deconstructed a new one appears.
Apparently impossible for some to hold their hands up and say they couldn’t see the signs and got it wrong.
Can only assume you didn’t watch the PSG game? Not about when/if a player receives a yellow, it’s about how they’re playing. Fred had got away with a definite red and about 3 yellow card challenges in the first half, it was so obvious they were winding him up and trying to get him sent off and he was riding to it.
So, when the manager had words with him at half time to calm down, he should not trust him? It was bloody obvious he wouldn’t listen?
Clearly no on the evidence...why do you think Fred was sent off for a challenge that wasn’t even a foul? The ref is getting all PSG players in his ear, he’s been off at HT and watched replays, spoken to colleagues and realised Fred could/should have been sent off twice. He headbutted a player ffs.
Anyway this isn’t about PSG/Fred it is about how the Pogba yellow couldn’t be more different a scenario.
It’s pretty difficult not to feel vindicated for backing Ole and calling out the nonsense that was being posted about him not that long ago.
Some posters really shouldn’t be trying to defend their baseless twaddle and downright malicious lie-spreading.
If you read this and think I must be talking about you then you’re probably right, especially if it makes you feel cross and sounds high and mighty. I had a few wobbles myself, I admit, but that’s not the same as saying he is clueless. Ole already proved he is far from clueless and it’s exciting to see just how far he can take us.
The future looks bright.
There was a pretty high percentage of us calling for the sack. Thank god the decision makers had more sense (or lucked into the right decision by simply not doing anything).
Anyway, those posters who came out and apologised deserve some credit. But the ones who say they were right at the time should do one.
Some posters really shouldn’t be trying to defend their baseless twaddle and downright malicious lie-spreading.
If you read this and think I must be talking about you then you’re probably right, especially if it makes you feel cross and sounds high and mighty. I had a few wobbles myself, I admit, but that’s not the same as saying he is clueless. Ole already proved he is far from clueless and it’s exciting to see just how far he can take us.
The future looks bright.
There was a pretty high percentage of us calling for the sack. Thank god the decision makers had more sense (or lucked into the right decision by simply not doing anything).
Anyway, those posters who came out and apologised deserve some credit. But the ones who say they were right at the time should do one.
First of all - that is an insult. No doubt about it. Calling someone a charlatan is like saying they are a fraud.
Secondly. It was not at all an accurate statement at the time. As numerous posters have described, Ole did short term sacrifices for the long term good of the club. He did so at the risk of his own reputation and put his dream job on the line, because he thought this was the best for the club long term. Not many would have done that.
In the fall of 2019, the squad was as a consequence unbalanced. And on top of that there were injuries to Pogba, Rashford and Martial. Dec 19-Jan 20 was the low point, points and performance wise. Yet those performances did not in any way justify calling him a charlatan. Quite the opposite. He was in fact sacrificing his own reputation for the long time benefit of the club. That is about as far from being a charlatan as it comes.
Many posters here saw at the time what he was trying to do, and have been strongly behind him for a long time. You did not see the big picture at the time. That is fair enough. There were many posters here who did not. However, calling him a charlatan was never ok. First of all as it is a petty insult, and secondly because he never was one. Unfortunately, there were many like you at the time, and this was a very toxic place, with insults such as charlatan, fraud and PE teacher being thrown at him.
That you still stand by your comment is in a way sad, as it implies that you still do not see that what we are experiencing now in terms of results are a direct consequence of the choices Ole has made from day 1, which led to us for a time not performing as good as we would have wanted. Ole did not just suddenly become a good manager two months ago.
In short, standing by your old comment at this point is just embarrasing.
Isn't the time to comment on someone's performance at the end of the season? Ole could end up having a cracking season with us chasing down the title or it could all go tits up in a few weeks - either way we are shaping up nicely at the midway point of the season.
Given the steady improvements since the start of last season, it seems unlikely that it would go tits up.
Edit: With tits up meaning falling out of top 4.
I do wish Ole would stop playing down our chances of winning the league. It could end up getting through to the players that third or fourth is some sort of achievement for this club.
He’s not playing down our chances. He’s saying it’s too early to talk about the title race and calling for us to focus.
I am firmly Ole in now after going to the Ole out side twice in October after the 1-6 loss and December after getting knocked out of the CL by Leipzig. I would be though, as I doubt any United fan at this moment is Ole out. No one could ever ask for a manager who is top of the league to be sacked. Must say though, no manager has ever conflicted me as much as Ole in terms of whether I wanted him to remain in charge or not before us going too made it a no-brainer. Even when we were 6th and playing awfully, I still sort of wanted him in because he’s a legend.
Tbf to him though, leaving sentiment aside, he has done so many good things since becoming manager here. Firstly and most importantly, he’s brought back the crucial value of Manchester United in the sense that he largely plays attacking, exciting football to entertain the hardworking United fans. Helps that he is clearly less arrogant than LvG and Mourinho despite achieving an equal or higher amount of accolades in football. Both managers wanted to stick to their pragmatic philosophies at all costs, while Ole is clearly adaptive and goes out to win every game. At Manchester United where 80% of the league sit back against you, the solution to that is to attack hard.
Also, there has been a visible culture change at the club since he was hired. First, his man-management is excellent and he is liked by the players, which is extremely important as it gives the club a friendlier feel. With happier players, results and performances will improve. Things like the Pogba-Jose public stare-off in the training ground in October 2018 are not happening anymore, and is it a coincidence that Pogba is playing much better now. I dislike Pogba’s constant flirting with other clubs, but Ole has extracted far more out of him on the pitch than Mourinho ever could. He also clearly uses the Fergie tactic of hammering indoors after poor performances but either defending the players to the hilt in the media or criticising the team as a whole rather than individuals. In that respect, Mourinho’s treatment of Shaw especially was a disgrace. Ole has also farmed out players we could all see we’re a toxic influence in the dressing room in Lukaku, Sanchez and Young, decent to average players who all thought they were world class. No coincidence the dressing room looks more United now. I’ve criticised him a lot in the past as we all have, but there is no slandering his off-the-pitch management.
Finally, his recruitment. Unlike our previous managers after Fergie, Ole has had far more hits than misses. It’s fair to discount James considering his low price, and aside from him, the likes of Maguire, Bruno, Cavani etc have all been excellent signings who have improved the team. I suppose only AWB hasn’t really panned out as well as we’d hoped. Our lineups before Bruno came made for painful reading, but now, it’s lovely to see how we can put a strong side out in any game while having at least 5 top players on the bench who all have the capacity to come on and change the game single-handedly. For example, Cavani, Greenwood, VdB, Telles/Shaw etc.
There is also no doubting his tendency to sell correctly. I can’t think of a single player he got rid of who we’ve missed. Maybe Herrera as I think he’s better than McT, but he was demanding wages we should not be paying to rotational players. You don’t hear this phrase often, but Lukaku, Sanchez, Young, Fellaini, Smalling and Pereira etc were all inspired sales. Now we’re in the process of finally getting deadwood like Rojo, Jones and Lingard out too, and will we miss them on the pitch? Unfortunately, not at all. If Ole’s excellent performance in the market continues, we’ll have a world class team in 2 years.
I suppose a weak spot of his is his in game management, but that is something which directly correlates to on-pitch performances and results. Therefore, while I slated him for making substitutions far too late last season, I cannot this season as clearly going by the simple fact that we’re top of the league at this moment in time (hope it continues), his game management is clearly rapidly improving with experience and going very well.
Tbf to him though, leaving sentiment aside, he has done so many good things since becoming manager here. Firstly and most importantly, he’s brought back the crucial value of Manchester United in the sense that he largely plays attacking, exciting football to entertain the hardworking United fans. Helps that he is clearly less arrogant than LvG and Mourinho despite achieving an equal or higher amount of accolades in football. Both managers wanted to stick to their pragmatic philosophies at all costs, while Ole is clearly adaptive and goes out to win every game. At Manchester United where 80% of the league sit back against you, the solution to that is to attack hard.
Also, there has been a visible culture change at the club since he was hired. First, his man-management is excellent and he is liked by the players, which is extremely important as it gives the club a friendlier feel. With happier players, results and performances will improve. Things like the Pogba-Jose public stare-off in the training ground in October 2018 are not happening anymore, and is it a coincidence that Pogba is playing much better now. I dislike Pogba’s constant flirting with other clubs, but Ole has extracted far more out of him on the pitch than Mourinho ever could. He also clearly uses the Fergie tactic of hammering indoors after poor performances but either defending the players to the hilt in the media or criticising the team as a whole rather than individuals. In that respect, Mourinho’s treatment of Shaw especially was a disgrace. Ole has also farmed out players we could all see we’re a toxic influence in the dressing room in Lukaku, Sanchez and Young, decent to average players who all thought they were world class. No coincidence the dressing room looks more United now. I’ve criticised him a lot in the past as we all have, but there is no slandering his off-the-pitch management.
Finally, his recruitment. Unlike our previous managers after Fergie, Ole has had far more hits than misses. It’s fair to discount James considering his low price, and aside from him, the likes of Maguire, Bruno, Cavani etc have all been excellent signings who have improved the team. I suppose only AWB hasn’t really panned out as well as we’d hoped. Our lineups before Bruno came made for painful reading, but now, it’s lovely to see how we can put a strong side out in any game while having at least 5 top players on the bench who all have the capacity to come on and change the game single-handedly. For example, Cavani, Greenwood, VdB, Telles/Shaw etc.
There is also no doubting his tendency to sell correctly. I can’t think of a single player he got rid of who we’ve missed. Maybe Herrera as I think he’s better than McT, but he was demanding wages we should not be paying to rotational players. You don’t hear this phrase often, but Lukaku, Sanchez, Young, Fellaini, Smalling and Pereira etc were all inspired sales. Now we’re in the process of finally getting deadwood like Rojo, Jones and Lingard out too, and will we miss them on the pitch? Unfortunately, not at all. If Ole’s excellent performance in the market continues, we’ll have a world class team in 2 years.
I suppose a weak spot of his is his in game management, but that is something which directly correlates to on-pitch performances and results. Therefore, while I slated him for making substitutions far too late last season, I cannot this season as clearly going by the simple fact that we’re top of the league at this moment in time (hope it continues), his game management is clearly rapidly improving with experience and going very well.