Dave's Godly form and us having overachieved (compared to the underlying numbers) is pretty much the only reason why Maguire and Ole aren't rated highly. Look at any relevant underlying stat - if you believe models look at that, else simple - shots, SoT, shots conceded, tackles, etc. metrics would work as well. You'd notice we were 5th-6th best team in England even in that season. We were expected to have conceded 42-43 goals in 17-18 and conceded 28. Last year, we were pretty much at the xGA number. If DDG was in that form now, we'd pretty much be conceding 20 odd goals in a PL season.
The “Ole In” Brigade
- Thread starter Lentwood
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Dave's Godly form and us having overachieved (compared to the underlying numbers) is pretty much the only reason why Maguire and Ole aren't rated highly. Look at any relevant underlying stat - if you believe models look at that, else simple - shots, SoT, shots conceded, tackles, etc. metrics would work as well. You'd notice we were 5th-6th best team in England even in that season. We were expected to have conceded 42-43 goals in 17-18 and conceded 28. Last year, we were pretty much at the xGA number. If DDG was in that form now, we'd pretty much be conceding 20 odd goals in a PL season.
To a title? No, what's strange is changing your opinion based on two good games. It's only a couple of weeks ago we were knocked out of CL needing 1 point from two games.
You mean he won a cup while boring us all to tears.
Who said anything about changing their opinion based on two games?
This squads the best it’s been since fergie left. Is it the finished product? No. Are we a million miles of a top top squad? Nope.
I’m really really hoping he gets backing over next few transfer windows. We can’t afford to think we’re playing well so it doesn’t need investment.
Liverpool we’re starting to look really good, they went out and bought vvd, Alison and the rest is history. We’re a couple worldy signings away from competing!
world Class cb, a productive right wing and a solid cdm and we’re looking decent. Also maybe a right back to compete with awb?
I’m really really hoping he gets backing over next few transfer windows. We can’t afford to think we’re playing well so it doesn’t need investment.
Liverpool we’re starting to look really good, they went out and bought vvd, Alison and the rest is history. We’re a couple worldy signings away from competing!
world Class cb, a productive right wing and a solid cdm and we’re looking decent. Also maybe a right back to compete with awb?
Yes, but he had a style of play and he won things. That's what we discussed.
You said it was strange timing, like I shouldn't say it now because we won two in a row.
Some nonsense spoken in this thread and in general. It’s utterly pointless comparing points/league positions to previous years. This is the here and now. If a team wins the league with 60 points they are still the best team at the time, irrespective if it wouldn’t have got a team in 8th in previous years. “Patterns of play” or “style” are other nonsense spoken by many. We play good, attacking football, winning football over the past 11 months. Bielsa and Dyche have an “identity” or style of play, it ain’t getting them very far. Ole should be praised for how he’s adapting and tweaking the team week after week and we are on the right track.
He won a Cup and his style was awful. Winning a Cup isn't an indicator of future success. He got sacked as we were going nowhere.
I'm saying it's a strange time as we recovered well last year to climb from 14th place to finish 3rd and after 13 league games this year we are third with a game in hand.
That's a hell of a bigger sample size then 2 games and the football is miles better than anything served up by LVG.
Ole was the one that got us in 14th place, so weird saying it's an achievement when he's the one that got us there. Like saying that Koeman deserves credit at Barca because they're not 10th in the table anymore, they're fifth!!! But if you think third place (in the last game) with historically low points per game for the place is impressive for Manchester United then we don't have much to say to each other anyway. I'm not impressed by his results, by his football, by his in-game management among other stuff. With that said, he has built a better squad than the previous managers and I think the next manager will have an easier job thanks to him. But I'm sure Ole isn't the one to take us to the big titles.
He won’t the fa cup not the title, slight difference
No, because we have the best form of 2020, best away record, look like scoring in every match, players in form.
I’ll also add we are starting to dominate games, we’re using passing patterns!!!!! Shock horror and ole is making some nice subs, that should please a few more of you.
We are not really dominating games (with the exception of yesterday). We had less possession than both City and Leeds for example, both at home. The United Way
We are not really dominating games (with the exception of yesterday). We had less possession than both City and Leeds for example, both at home. The United Way
Dominating games isn't measured by how much possession you have. See Leeds vs: Liverpool, City, Spurs, Chelsea and see how much possession they had. Is that the Klopp or Pep way? Klopp out?
So out of everything I wrote, that’s all you disagree with and not happy with? But still moaning.We are not really dominating games (with the exception of yesterday). We had less possession than both City and Leeds for example, both at home. The United Way
you can also dominate a game without possession
Klopp's team dominates possession in like 98% av the games. That's what big teams do, as Gary Neville said: "Big teams who win titles dominate games, dominate possession. That's what they do. Manchester United has to start doing that, being on the front foot." I think United did that very well for 30 minutes yesterday. But we have to see that more often. If we aren't, then I don't see us winning anything of notice.
However, in your previous post you criticised Ole for not having more possession v's Leeds, yet Klopp's Liverpool ALSO didn't do it v's Leeds. They had less possession but won the game, they actually scraped the win with 2 penalties in a 3-2 win, we slaughtered them.
How on earth could you criticise United for battering Leeds 6-2....
This place never disappoints
However, in your previous post you criticised Ole for not having more possession v's Leeds, yet Klopp's Liverpool ALSO didn't do it v's Leeds. They had less possession but won the game, they actually scraped the win with 2 penalties in a 3-2 win, we slaughtered them.
How on earth could you criticise United for battering Leeds 6-2....
This place never disappoints
I didn't criticize him. That's just you putting words in my mouth, not the first time mind. I have said that a manager at Manchester United should dominate games, and evidence is that all the title-winning sides dominate football matches and dominate possession. However, you can still win games without that, but in the long run, that's the way forward. And I don't think Ole does that on a regular basis.
We are not really dominating games (with the exception of yesterday). We had less possession than both City and Leeds for example, both at home. The United Way
We used to 'dominate' games under Van Gaal, sometimes getting up to 80% possession, but our shots stats were awful in a lot of those games, only 4 or 5. Dominating possession is not the major factor in winning matches.
Nope, but all the teams who win big trophies have that playing style and dominate games. You don't win the league on the counter.
You said Ole's United should have more possession than Leeds if we want to be dominant
Funny you say the bolded part, Fergie's 2013 title winning squad were actually 4th in possession stats, joint with Swansea City. Fergie out?
We are not really dominating games (with the exception of yesterday). We had less possession than both City and Leeds for example, both at home. The United Way
Literally everyone has less possession than Leeds and City
I fecking hate that possession equals dominance these days. Load of shite.
Give me Olè ball over tip tapping it around the back 4 all day long.
Give me Olè ball over tip tapping it around the back 4 all day long.
The use of ‘domination’, as if it’s a quantifiable unit of measurement is hilarious. Saying it’s a vague argument is an understatement.
Points and goals, that’s what matters.
Points and goals, that’s what matters.
I'm talking about how well the team have been playing for over a year now.
He has a better record at United that LVG, apart from the Cup. We may not win titles under Ole but we are best placed to kick on and do that since Fergie left.
Jamie Vardy says Hi
I honestly couldn’t care less about possession stats. Leeds will probably end the season in 15th despite likely having more possession in all 38 PL games, because they can’t blend the two fundamentals of football, attacking and defending in a balanced manner. If we can, I don’t care if we have less possession in every game because we will win loads of matches l. It’s that simple.
We are not really dominating games (with the exception of yesterday). We had less possession than both City and Leeds for example, both at home. The United Way
You arent impressed by his results?
One in a million mate.
No, not a single trophy yet. Sixth and third in the league, although he did okayish last season in the league. Will we be better than third this season? Highly doubt it.
How long did it take for Klopp to win his first trophy at Liverpool? I can see reading your posts that you only equate success to trophies so there's little point discussing the matter right now with you. But given we're currently on a very good run (we have been all year) I would suggest you pipe down. It's Christmas Eve and we just beat Everton to reach yet another semi final. Have a drink and be happy. We're actually a decent footballing side again. Not the finished product by any means but we're closing the gap.
People are obsessed with possession and stats in football. I guess it is the way to get more people interested in sport, who never played and don't know anything about it. Who cares about possession? Is that percentage of possession in attacking third, or in your own half? Is there a difference between useful possession from which you can create something, and possession LVG style where you keep the ball in the game just for the sake of it?
Our style is not based on possession. From what I can see, our main style in possession is to make two ways to penetrate defense. First, by making them press on our defenders, opening space for one of our midfielders/forwards to receive open pass on the 30-35 yards in their half, so they can go on goal with runs from the flanks inside. Second, when we are in final third to slow down passing and than increase speed by sending ball on 20 yards with a few flick ons and fast distribution so someone can get in position to shoot (or crossing from the flanks). The first one is working for us, the second one not that much, although better with Cavani runs in the box.
In both options, possession is not that important as players are allowed to send those passes as soon as they think that it can work. They have freedom to make mistakes as long they are back in defense when they make mistake.
Also, on of the options for us is to let their defenders running to our goal, opening space for them, so they can reach 25 yards or so. The goal is to make them to make mistake and have open runs for our wingers. Using speed of Rashford, Martial, James and Greenwood, and good vision of Bruno, Pogba, Mata let us to have better numbers in counter. Although our counters still don't work the best they can with this setup, we are extremely dangerous from there and teams are afraid to be in that positions against us. Good example was yesterday with Bruno and Rashford missing two easy chances in final minutes. We scored one, we could score 3-5 in the last 5 minutes once we have been one up as there was tones of space behind. That is something we won't to create once we let them have possession. In those situations we are more dangerous, and not having possession works better for us.
At the end, as someone says, football is about feelings. Watching Ole's United is fun. It doesn't work sometimes, it is frustrating, but it looks better every day. Squad looks good, looks like players are there willing to fight and enjoying the ride. Most of them here to stay, and most of them that are playing every week we would like have in the team for years. Some will leave, and if Ole replace them in the same way as he did with all his signings so far, this team will be even better with every month. With competition for places, once he replace Lingard, Jones, Rojo, Matic and Mata for example (last two due to age), with CB, RB, DM, CM and RW we will have 2 players for every position that will grow with the team. Future looks good, and it certainly did not look good even with trophies people are mentioning, when you could see it won't be any better.
Our style is not based on possession. From what I can see, our main style in possession is to make two ways to penetrate defense. First, by making them press on our defenders, opening space for one of our midfielders/forwards to receive open pass on the 30-35 yards in their half, so they can go on goal with runs from the flanks inside. Second, when we are in final third to slow down passing and than increase speed by sending ball on 20 yards with a few flick ons and fast distribution so someone can get in position to shoot (or crossing from the flanks). The first one is working for us, the second one not that much, although better with Cavani runs in the box.
In both options, possession is not that important as players are allowed to send those passes as soon as they think that it can work. They have freedom to make mistakes as long they are back in defense when they make mistake.
Also, on of the options for us is to let their defenders running to our goal, opening space for them, so they can reach 25 yards or so. The goal is to make them to make mistake and have open runs for our wingers. Using speed of Rashford, Martial, James and Greenwood, and good vision of Bruno, Pogba, Mata let us to have better numbers in counter. Although our counters still don't work the best they can with this setup, we are extremely dangerous from there and teams are afraid to be in that positions against us. Good example was yesterday with Bruno and Rashford missing two easy chances in final minutes. We scored one, we could score 3-5 in the last 5 minutes once we have been one up as there was tones of space behind. That is something we won't to create once we let them have possession. In those situations we are more dangerous, and not having possession works better for us.
At the end, as someone says, football is about feelings. Watching Ole's United is fun. It doesn't work sometimes, it is frustrating, but it looks better every day. Squad looks good, looks like players are there willing to fight and enjoying the ride. Most of them here to stay, and most of them that are playing every week we would like have in the team for years. Some will leave, and if Ole replace them in the same way as he did with all his signings so far, this team will be even better with every month. With competition for places, once he replace Lingard, Jones, Rojo, Matic and Mata for example (last two due to age), with CB, RB, DM, CM and RW we will have 2 players for every position that will grow with the team. Future looks good, and it certainly did not look good even with trophies people are mentioning, when you could see it won't be any better.
I don't agree that we have been on a good run all year. We have been very lucky at times (Brighton, West Ham, Southampton) and we have also been playing very well at times, and very bad at times. We have seen it all. He has been very good in the last two games, so that's a start. I agree that things are looking better. I haven't said anything else. Ole has done some good things. It's just that I don't think that's enough in the long run. To close the gap we need to be better than third, we have already fecked up CL. Do I think we will finish 1st or 2nd? No. I don't. Sadly.
Yet our results show that we are on a good run. We're the team thats picked up most points with the highest win % in the league since lockdown ended, we're the team with the 2nd highest win percentage in the calendar year. We're clearly on a very good run of form and our results have also gone up a tier.
I'll ask you again, how long did it take Klopp to win a trophy at Liverpool?
Can you at least concede that you win games by giving yourself a chance to shoot 25 times with 15 on target? Cause that’s when you score goals. Well, this is what we do.
I don't know, and I don't care. Don't compare Ole with the likes of Klopp and Ferguson. They're rare. Klopp is the best manager in the world and is going to win the league with a pretty weak squad right now.
Yes we do need to do better than third to close the gap but this season will be better than last season and I fully expect us to be closer to the top than at end of last year.
The team isn't the finished product and there is still work to do. I'm not convinced we'll get a title race this year but things are improving and we quite clearly have been on a good run for the past year. The results show that.
2 billion? 2? Billion?
This post starts badly and goes downhill from there. I can only suggest a break from the keyboard as it appears to be warping your view somewhat.
I mean come on man, you're coming across as completely nuts.
This isnt even close to being true
Having the best 2 forwards in the league, 2 world class fullbacks and a hard working drilled midfield? Yeah poor klopp.
Plus the most reliable keeper and Jota, who many would put in the same bracket as Rashford.
Ole has been and is still the right man for the job.
I’m not even sure why this is such a discussion. We have won as many points as any in 2020. He said at the beginning he knows what he wants the squad to look like in threw years and for us to challenge then. He’s got us a third place finish in his first full season, and came out and said that we have to get much closer to the two above this season. We’re currently 2/3 in the table and just a few points off the top.
Starting again at this point would be madness.
I’m not even sure why this is such a discussion. We have won as many points as any in 2020. He said at the beginning he knows what he wants the squad to look like in threw years and for us to challenge then. He’s got us a third place finish in his first full season, and came out and said that we have to get much closer to the two above this season. We’re currently 2/3 in the table and just a few points off the top.
Starting again at this point would be madness.