Small time to discuss a league challenge, when challenging for the top at xmas time? I feel sorry for people who can't even allow themselves to enjoy the football when we are playing fairly well. Must be such a miserable existence.
Can you not enjoy the team and football without thinking we are in the title race? Or is it a prerequisite?Do you get any enjoyment whatsoever from Man Utd @devilish?
There’s a difference between posters getting their “PL Winners 2021” tattoo’s done and people just being happy that we’re actually not already 15pts behind the leaders like we have been in recent seasons at Christmas
Please read again. I said shit defence, not shit team. Midfield and forward line are relatively fine. The problem lie in the defence unit which is incredibly error prone even when it gets all the protection it can get. Better coaching and better tactics can help, however they won't make Maguire/Lindelof fast (or intelligent) or push DDG to leave the comfort of his goal line. I still can't figure it out how on earth did we spent 80m on such average CB. He's got no pace, no leadership, little positioning and he constantly need to be nannied. Prime Wes, Johnsen, Bruce and Evans were better then him let alone Rio, Vidic, Pally and Stam.
I think 4th is the best we can get given our circumstances (shit defence, unexperienced manager + coaching staff etc). Irrespective of that it's still 14 games in the league. There plenty of games coming through and every man and his dog knows that we're ridiculously flawed. Luck will carry us so far.
However don't let me stop you celebrating the league title in Christmas mate. I didn't stop Liverpool fans during the Houllier/Benitez doing that, let alone fellow fans.
Supporting a football team is all about the journey. If you can't enjoy the journey then you don't deserve to enjoy the destination.
So do you think a defense with Fuch, Huth, Morgan, and Simpson was better? They were conceding 36 goals, the same record that we had last season.Please read again. I said shit defence, not shit team. Midfield and forward line are relatively fine. The problem lie in the defence unit which is incredibly error prone even when it gets all the protection it can get. Better coaching and better tactics can help, however they won't make Maguire/Lindelof fast (or intelligent) or push DDG to leave the comfort of his goal line. I still can't figure it out how on earth did we spent 80m on such average CB. He's got no pace, no leadership, little positioning and he constantly need to be nannied. Prime Wes, Johnsen, Bruce and Evans were better then him let alone Rio, Vidic, Pally and Stam.
Supporting a football team is all about the journey. If you can't enjoy the journey then you don't deserve to enjoy the destination.
Can you not enjoy the team and football without thinking we are in the title race? Or is it a prerequisite?
Supporting a football team is all about the journey. If you can't enjoy the journey then you don't deserve to enjoy the destination.
Very well saidSupporting a football team is all about the journey. If you can't enjoy the journey then you don't deserve to enjoy the destination.
You've listed all the things that Solskjaer is lacking by way of support and then attributed our league position to luck rather than giving him any credit for it. This is what I don't understand. If you think we should be bottom half of the table based on our set up surely the manager is doing a great job in your eyes?Well let's see.
I am not completely Ole out. I've said it many times that I'd wish the guy got proper help. That doesn't mean a blank cheque to buy every British talent he sets his eye upon but more in terms of experienced coaches, a top DOF, a technical director etc. When you consider our structure (inexperienced CEO, inexperienced head of recruitment, inexperienced manager, inexperienced coaches etc), we're lucky we're not lingering in the bottom half of the EPL table. That's the sort of progress I'd like to see this season and not this rollercoaster.
Having said that there's plenty of games that will need to be played and that defence is diabolical.
We're just 13-14 games in the league and we're already talking about winning the title. That despite having our arse handled to us by tiny Istanbul whatever and Leipzig. We really became small time.
I am sticking to facts mate ie the CL. We won't be in it due to defeats against 2 clubs with o e 10th of our budget. Now as said before. If you wish to celebrate the league title 13 games into the league then be my guest. I can't see us winning the league with that leaky defence (that Ole spent 145m on btw).aybe the EPL should issue a 3rd by Christmas trophy. God only knows how Ole needs a trophy
Not that I disagree with your point about us not being good enough challenging for the league, but using the CL as some kind of proof is meaningless in this comparison. In 2011/12 we came third and crashed into the EL in a group that had Benfica, Basle and Otelul Galati.
You've listed all the things that Solskjaer is lacking by way of support and then attributed our league position to luck rather than giving him any credit for it. This is what I don't understand. If you think we should be bottom half of the table based on our set up surely the manager is doing a great job in your eyes?
the Guy wouldn’t be happy even if we went and won the league (not that I think we will). We have shown a great deal of progress that I personally am very happy to see.
I am sticking to facts mate ie the CL. We won't be in it due to defeats against 2 clubs with o e 10th of our budget. Now as said before. If you wish to celebrate the league title 13 games into the league then be my guest. I can't see us winning the league with that leaky defence (that Ole spent 145m on btw).aybe the EPL should issue a 3rd by Christmas trophy. God only knows how Ole needs a trophy
What's the point of having both this and would you sack or keep Ole thread at the top of the forum? They are essentially the same thing, those in favour of Ole battling those against him.
What's the point of having both this and would you sack or keep Ole thread at the top of the forum? They are essentially the same thing, those in favour of Ole battling those against him.
It seemed that I kicked a proper hornet nest here so I apologise for not answering to each and every post.
Its undeniable that there's some positives to be taken since Ole became manager. Ole has handled Greenwood magnificently and he got rid of some deadwood. I believe his greatest achievement was of stabilising the dressing room. The dressing room has costed Mourinho, LVG and Moyes career. So kudos for Ole for keeping this players at his side despite taking some tough decisions against popular players (ex Pogba and JLingz)
We're still crap in the transfer market . With the exception of Bruno whose been amazing and is the reason why Ole is still in the job our transfers were meah at best. Leicester robbed us on Maguire, Palace probably did the same with AWB, we extended Ighalo's contract out of Lulz, Telles seem to be a defensive liability (early days though) and Ole has yet to understand VDB and Cavani can fit in the system. On a positive note we're buying for the future or at least we're buying players with a decent resale value. Apart from Maguire of course whose probably worth 30m maybe 40m at best. That's also a positive.
Apart from that I can't see too many positives. Our defence keep leaking goals despite spending 145m in it. Ole seem to yet grasp what VDB can do to this team which is a shame. We've became bottlers with 3 semi finals lost and a CL qualification were we snatched a defeat from the jaws of victory against 2 teams with 1/10 of our budget. Sure we're in 3rd place. However we've only played 13 games. To put things into perspective we're as far from Liverpool at 1st place as we're far from West Ham at 10th.
I remember sharing a pint with a Liverpool fan a few decades ago. He was talking about how Liverpool are on the rise, how United will struggle in long term without king Eric and how its only a matter of time before Liverpool could go toe to toe against us. I couldn't help but laugh at it. TBF he wasn't completely deluded. Liverpool of Incey time were quite an exciting side. They had James, Friedel, Carragher, Ince (one of the few DMs who could go toe to toe with Keane), Rednapp, Mcmanaman, Berger, Fowler and Owen. There was also rumours of a kid from their youth academy who could one day be as good if not better then our own Paul Scholes (he wasn't but he did carve a half decent career for himself). However I wasn't worried to the least. Similar to our current side they had huge flaws as well both in terms of tactics and their team which they probably would never sort because of sentimentalism. It would take Liverpool decades to shed that legacy away and till then they weren't a team I was too worried about.
I genuinely like to be proven wrong however I can't see us win the EPL title with a defence that leaks goals left right and centre and I can't put my trust into a manager who spent 145m in that defence to start with. On top of that I think that United are too stuck in our ways to make the next step. I am not excluding that Ole can't become a decent manager. However in my books true progression would mean surrounding him with experienced people to help him out. That mean a top quality DOF, experienced coaches (especially defence wise) and a head of recruitment.
Now let's the witch hunt begins.
It seemed that I kicked a proper hornet nest here so I apologise for not answering to each and every post.
Its undeniable that there's some positives to be taken since Ole became manager. Ole has handled Greenwood magnificently and he got rid of some deadwood. I believe his greatest achievement was of stabilising the dressing room. The dressing room has costed Mourinho, LVG and Moyes career. So kudos for Ole for keeping this players at his side despite taking some tough decisions against popular players (ex Pogba and JLingz)
We're still crap in the transfer market . With the exception of Bruno whose been amazing and is the reason why Ole is still in the job our transfers were meah at best. Leicester robbed us on Maguire, Palace probably did the same with AWB, we extended Ighalo's contract out of Lulz, Telles seem to be a defensive liability (early days though) and Ole has yet to understand VDB and Cavani can fit in the system. On a positive note we're buying for the future or at least we're buying players with a decent resale value. Apart from Maguire of course whose probably worth 30m maybe 40m at best. That's also a positive.
Apart from that I can't see too many positives. Our defence keep leaking goals despite spending 145m in it. Ole seem to yet grasp what VDB can do to this team which is a shame. We've became bottlers with 3 semi finals lost and a CL qualification were we snatched a defeat from the jaws of victory against 2 teams with 1/10 of our budget. Sure we're in 3rd place. However we've only played 13 games. To put things into perspective we're as far from Liverpool at 1st place as we're far from West Ham at 10th.
I remember sharing a pint with a Liverpool fan a few decades ago. He was talking about how Liverpool are on the rise, how United will struggle in long term without king Eric and how its only a matter of time before Liverpool could go toe to toe against us. I couldn't help but laugh at it. TBF he wasn't completely deluded. Liverpool of Incey time were quite an exciting side. They had James, Friedel, Carragher, Ince (one of the few DMs who could go toe to toe with Keane), Rednapp, Mcmanaman, Berger, Fowler and Owen. There was also rumours of a kid from their youth academy who could one day be as good if not better then our own Paul Scholes (he wasn't but he did carve a half decent career for himself). However I wasn't worried to the least. Similar to our current side they had huge flaws as well both in terms of tactics and their team which they probably would never sort because of sentimentalism. It would take Liverpool decades to shed that legacy away and till then they weren't a team I was too worried about.
I genuinely like to be proven wrong however I can't see us win the EPL title with a defence that leaks goals left right and centre and I can't put my trust into a manager who spent 145m in that defence to start with. On top of that I think that United are too stuck in our ways to make the next step. I am not excluding that Ole can't become a decent manager. However in my books true progression would mean surrounding him with experienced people to help him out. That mean a top quality DOF, experienced coaches (especially defence wise) and a head of recruitment.
Now let's the witch hunt begins.
what’s the % of British players he’s bought? How many foreign players has he bought since the last British player?
you need to change the record.
Some of these things are outside of Ole's control, except perhaps appointing additional coaches. He seems to be doing ok in spite of this so all points in his favor. What you are posing is really a question for Woodward and co. though as an outsider looking in there seems to be a better balance between Ole and Woodward&co than with previous managers. Makes sense as Ole knows the club intimately.
Anyway point being is that the risk of changing manager right now far outweigh the rewards because of the points you make at the end. Ole is playing the game well, and most other managers might not.
You are correct that our defensive jitters will for the time being most likely preclude us from major honors, but its good to have an easily identifiable area to fix. We are becoming lethal in transition, and improved at controlling play, and individually players are noticeably improving. So if Ole sorts out defense then we should be looking very handy. I personally would spend more time encouraging this fix than believing a potential complete overhaul with an unnamed future manager will be a better alternative.
We're just 13-14 games in the league and we're already talking about winning the title. That despite having our arse handled to us by tiny Istanbul whatever and Leipzig. We really became small time.
Is it? Would anyone really sack him if Ole admitted that he needs an experienced defensive coach, a better tactical coach + he is more comfortable if we had a top DOF on board? I very much doubt it. I admit that I am more Ole out then Ole in but such a thing would surely make me rethink my steps. It would mean to me that Ole has embraced his limits and is ready to learn from his AND the club's mistakes.
As said I am the first to admit were Ole did well. There's no chance in hell that the guy is anywhere near to Sir Alex in terms of potential but I see plenty of Allegri in him. Similar to Allegri he's a great man manager, whose tactically weak (Dolcetti cares for that stuff), he relied heavily on a DOF to make good signings for him + he loves to tinker with the first team (Ole is less of a tinker then Allegri is and thank god for that). Therefore Ole can make it work IF he surrounds himself with the right people.
So I'd said my fill. Call me whatever you want but I will only be truly excited when some real progression is made and that real progression can be made when the right people are hired to do the job. If that happens under Ole's watch then fine. If not, well, tough shit. Let's hope the next manager have the IQ to push for those changes. We need them.
Apologies, I seem to have missed the wider context then. I am all against moaning at any times. It solves nothing at all. And you don't need to be in a title race or winning trophies every week to be able to enjoy a game, season or a team.What’s that got to do with what I posted? If you look at the 6/7 posts above mine, there’s a number of similar posts from a regular forum user whingeing about people saying we’re in a title race.
I’m asking what enjoyment do you get out of the game if you moan when the clubs not doing well and you also moan when we’ve just taken 16/18pts?
Is it? Would anyone really sack him if Ole admitted that he needs an experienced defensive coach, a better tactical coach + he is more comfortable if we had a top DOF on board? I very much doubt it. I admit that I am more Ole out then Ole in but such a thing would surely make me rethink my steps. It would mean to me that Ole has embraced his limits and is ready to learn from his AND the club's mistakes.
As said I am the first to admit were Ole did well. There's no chance in hell that the guy is anywhere near to Sir Alex in terms of potential but I see plenty of Allegri in him. Similar to Allegri he's a great man manager, whose tactically weak (Dolcetti cares for that stuff), he relied heavily on a DOF to make good signings for him + he loves to tinker with the first team (Ole is less of a tinker then Allegri is and thank god for that). Therefore Ole can make it work IF he surrounds himself with the right people.
So I'd said my fill. Call me whatever you want but I will only be truly excited when some real progression is made and that real progression can be made when the right people are hired to do the job. If that happens under Ole's watch then fine. If not, well, tough shit. Let's hope the next manager have the IQ to push for those changes. We need them.
Supporting a football team is all about the journey. If you can't enjoy the journey then you don't deserve to enjoy the destination.
Ole doesn't throw his players under the bus, so he's unlikely to do anything different with his coaching staff. He's their boss, if he openly said he wanted someone else it wouldn't exactly make them perform their jobs better.
We don't know what happens behind the scenes. Maybe the team is more competent than it looks from the outside. We'll only know when/if we hire new coaches, like when Ole bigged up players in the media who were sold shortly after. The only news recently was that Mark Dempsey, one of Ole's coaches that he met as a youth coach in United, and that Ole brought with him to Molde and Cardiff as well, has recently changed his responsibilities from working with the first team to instead work with our Academy.
We've also hired another 3-4 coaches for our various youth teams that start working early next year.
This opens up room to bring in another first-team coach between now and the summer. It's also rumored that Phelan might move on.
It's probably not super easy to hire world class coaches either, who also needs to be the right cultural fit with the entire team.
I'm certain that Ole is evaluating options for coaches all the time. But we won't really know about it until people are hired.
Inexperienced managers need experienced people around them especially at a juggernaut club like United whose board of director happens to be filled with bankers not football people. It's not as if he can walk in Woodward's office and ask for football advice. There's nothing to be ashamed off in asking for help either. Sir Alex himself surrounded with the best assistants and coaching staff he could get his hands off, people like Mclaren, Queroz, Rene and Smith. Most were half decent managers in their own right. I dare to say that's the reason Sir Alex's career lasted so long. TBF the manager's job is a lonely and high stressful job, so having a pack of loyal yes men is quite tempting. However its very hard for a manager to reinvent his game if he surround himself with people with his same mentality.
I also understand that certain changes I am asking for (ex DOF) go beyond the manager's premise. However I do believe that Ole can push for such changes. First of all, even the staunchest Ole out admits that he loves the club. Thus he can at least push the club in that direction if he want to. Secondly if Ole leaks the need of United signing a DOF or/and head of recruitment then every single supporter whose not an idiot would rally behind him. That include most Ole outers as well. Finally the Glazers might not understand football but they do understand ££££. They probably understand that having a big chunk of that 1Billion in transfer money thrown in the bin + 3 managers sacked is not great. Honestly if we add a top DOF and maybe bring someone like Faria back then I'd consider this more of a progression then our current 3rd place.
It seemed that I kicked a proper hornet nest here so I apologise for not answering to each and every post.
Its undeniable that there's some positives to be taken since Ole became manager. Ole has handled Greenwood magnificently and he got rid of some deadwood. I believe his greatest achievement was of stabilising the dressing room. The dressing room has costed Mourinho, LVG and Moyes career. So kudos for Ole for keeping this players at his side despite taking some tough decisions against popular players (ex Pogba and JLingz)
We're still crap in the transfer market . With the exception of Bruno whose been amazing and is the reason why Ole is still in the job our transfers were meah at best. Leicester robbed us on Maguire, Palace probably did the same with AWB, we extended Ighalo's contract out of Lulz, Telles seem to be a defensive liability (early days though) and Ole has yet to understand VDB and Cavani can fit in the system. On a positive note we're buying for the future or at least we're buying players with a decent resale value. Apart from Maguire of course whose probably worth 30m maybe 40m at best. That's also a positive.
Apart from that I can't see too many positives. Our defence keep leaking goals despite spending 145m in it. Ole seem to yet grasp what VDB can do to this team which is a shame. We've became bottlers with 3 semi finals lost and a CL qualification were we snatched a defeat from the jaws of victory against 2 teams with 1/10 of our budget. Sure we're in 3rd place. However we've only played 13 games. To put things into perspective we're as far from Liverpool at 1st place as we're far from West Ham at 10th.
I remember sharing a pint with a Liverpool fan a few decades ago. He was talking about how Liverpool are on the rise, how United will struggle in long term without king Eric and how its only a matter of time before Liverpool could go toe to toe against us. I couldn't help but laugh at it. TBF he wasn't completely deluded. Liverpool of Incey time were quite an exciting side. They had James, Friedel, Carragher, Ince (one of the few DMs who could go toe to toe with Keane), Rednapp, Mcmanaman, Berger, Fowler and Owen. There was also rumours of a kid from their youth academy who could one day be as good if not better then our own Paul Scholes (he wasn't but he did carve a half decent career for himself). However I wasn't worried to the least. Similar to our current side they had huge flaws as well both in terms of tactics and their team which they probably would never sort because of sentimentalism. It would take Liverpool decades to shed that legacy away and till then they weren't a team I was too worried about.
I genuinely like to be proven wrong however I can't see us win the EPL title with a defence that leaks goals left right and centre and I can't put my trust into a manager who spent 145m in that defence to start with. On top of that I think that United are too stuck in our ways to make the next step. I am not excluding that Ole can't become a decent manager. However in my books true progression would mean surrounding him with experienced people to help him out. That mean a top quality DOF, experienced coaches (especially defence wise) and a head of recruitment.
Now let's the witch hunt begins.
I don’t understand how you can conclude that Palace and Leicester robbed us for AWB and Maguire. We paid market value for established PL players.
When you sign a player who has excelled in Serie A or La Liga, you take a risk. How will the player settle? Will they adapt to the culture, the weather, the dressing room? Will their partner demand a move away when they realise it pisses it down in Manchester 362 days a year and gets dark at 3pm for 4 months of the year? Will they flirt with Barcelona and Madrid the moment they have a few decent games? Will they cope with the pace and physicality of the English game?
Sure, we could have signed Sergio Serginho from Atheltic de Espana or Pablo Pasta from FC Turin for half the price and posters would have fallen over themselves with excitement, despite never having actually seen them complete 90mins.
Problem is, Ole needed “safe bets” when he walked into the club. Is Maguire world class? No. Is Wan Bissake world class? No. But are they above average players who are proven in the PL? Yes.
Once we have 15/16 players who are very capable in one or two positions, we can start taking risks. We’re probably approach that point now. When Ole arrived, we had little room for manoeuvre - two bad signings and we could have finished 10th. You pay a premium for knowing the risk for an 8/10 PL player is lower.