Same, just thinking about it is putting me on edge.
Thai Cave kids | All 12 boys and coach rescued from cave | visiting United
- Thread starter Ekkie Thump
- Start date
Same, just thinking about it is putting me on edge.
Yup, same.
yeah but given a choice between getting through there or staying put I think I'd be willing to give it a go
I did some ground caving earlier this year. Crawling through a space barely bigger than a sardine can was already difficult enough on land, I can't even imagine what it would be like underwater with zero visibility, freezing waters and strong currents.
Yeah that’s definitely possible. Same way that using a snorkel which is too long can cause hypercapnia.
tie a rope to them and have a very big man / machine drag it - plenty of bumps and scrapes and it wont be nice - but its a hell of a lot better than the alternative and given the weather forecast i think they are probably going to have to do something today / tomorrow
Dont know about the freezing waters part - but I find that surprising given its in thailand...
actually article here says temperature in cave around 26 degrees so yeah on the plus side the water wont be freezing ... still obviously a hell of a task
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...in-thai-cave-could-take-months-military-warns
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ffs
Yes I think a machine may be the right idea.
i'm not sure a rope could be pulled out like that, it twists and turns too much, the rope would probably snag and break.
They're talking about tethering them to divers who can haul them through. The thing is, whatever they do, the breathing gear will be difficult, any kind of tether/tube could get snagged on the rocks. If it does, the kid will need to be freed immediately, difficult in some spaces where the diver hasn't got room to turn to face them to deal with the problem and refit masks/pipes, particularly if the kid panics.
They do sometimes wrap injured cavers in what look like thick rubber stretchers to move them through water, but some of the gaps are so small and the angles so difficult that they may not be an option for some sections.
A) What if the breathing mask gets knocked off in one of these "bumps & scrapes"
B) as already mentioned, the 70cm wide tunnel means they would have to be pulled through without an oxygen tank.
feck all this. An horror scenario. It seems inevitable that things will go further wrong. One can only hope for a miracle.
I'm guessing they're not telling the kids one of their rescuers died. Morale must be terrible already.
How quick was the flash flood, if they had no other option than look for a ledge instead of coming out? Could another flood submerge the entire area they are in or is it safe? If it can flood I'm guessing it might be too fast for even an emergency unprepared exit.
I'm guessing they're not telling the kids one of their rescuers died. Morale must be terrible already.
How quick was the flash flood, if they had no other option than look for a ledge instead of coming out? Could another flood submerge the entire area they are in or is it safe? If it can flood I'm guessing it might be too fast for even an emergency unprepared exit.
I work with similar tubes often which are water tight and go for miles, but they’re more like 1 ft. in diameter. I don’t know how common a size large enough for a human would be though.
This is also a problem with drilling. Drilling vertically into the cavern might be possible, but increasing the borehole size to extract someone is a multiplier of the difficulties involved.
Im sure the expert are working 24/7 on finding a suitable rescue plans. But looking at the circumstances it's extremely complicated.
Even if the tubes or tunnel might work in theory installing them would be pretty impossible when you can't even swim through it with ease
Even if the tubes or tunnel might work in theory installing them would be pretty impossible when you can't even swim through it with ease
jeez, this sounds to be getting worse and worse. Conditions sound like they are horrendous, 70cm is tight as hell and it's not as if the cave is regular either, there's likely loads of obstacles that come from all sides and some that move with the (supposedly) high flowing water. It's all just so fraught with difficulty and the length of journey is just so long.
A good map of the cave is available here. The shape of various sections are shown in the numbered inset. The rescue base is at "9" and the trapped kids are at "30" or "39" depending on the report.
I just can't see how getting them out though that sort of scenario doesn't result in more awful incidents.
There'll be areas like this:
apparently areas like this:
But in visibility like this:
apparently areas like this:
But in visibility like this:
A good map of the cave is available here. The shape of various sections are shown in the numbered inset. The rescue base is at "9" and the trapped kids are at "30" or "39" depending on the report.
I just can't see how getting them out though that sort of scenario doesn't result in more awful incidents.
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If they are proposing to get a tube in there to supply breathable air, could they get in material to make a big airtight container that they could live in whilst the water subsides? Just in the event that the rain that's coming floods that chamber?
God knows what the pyschological effects of living in a bubble for 2 or 3 months would be, but better than dying certainly.
God knows what the pyschological effects of living in a bubble for 2 or 3 months would be, but better than dying certainly.
I suspect that taking the materials and equipment needed to assemble said airtight container plus power sources etc etc make it far more viable to take the kids out (even though that is obviously fraught with its own difficulties)
Is it not possible to widen these spaces somehow within the cave that are really tight to make them pass through easier. Either by drilling them away to widen them and extract the rubble or a small explosion with the same result?
Probably not, due to visibilty etc..but just throwing it out there.
Horrendous situation.
Probably not, due to visibilty etc..but just throwing it out there.
Horrendous situation.
What a horror situation. Is the sheer difficulty of this operation similar to the one with the Chilean miners?
Not really, they weren't in danger of flooding if I remember correctly...and it was an existing mine so tunneling and drilling was easier, and where they were (I'm assuming) was braced, etc...
My previous understanding was that they could potentially keep them in there for four months, assuming they gave them the necessary provisions and I guess got oxygen and medical supplies in there? However it seems this is no longer the case and they basically need to get them out before the monsoons?
That's my understanding too.
IIRC, firstly it was quite easy to get food and supplies down to the miners compared to these boys. They drilled a 6 inch wide hole down from the surface. Now to get supplies to the Thai boys, it takes an 11 hour round trip not to mention the journey to get to them is incredibly dangerous (a diver died just today). They also knew the cave systems of the miners better than they do here and there was a lot more space to drill down to the miners. They knew exactly where to drill, whereas it would be a lot more dangerous to attempt the same in the Thai caves. They would also need to deliver the drilling equipment to the caves a.k.a. clearing paths.
Reports today said oxygen levels had dropped to 15% where usually it would be around 21%. The Thai SEAL diver that died today was installing oxygen supply lines to the boys.
They're worried about oxygen levels.
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/05/asia/thai-cave-diver-intl/index.html
the dive plan is suicide imo , get air supply and start drilling from above
ive not heard much about this other than people saying its a non starter.... not sure why but how far would they have to drill and whats the structural stability of the area (presumably they would still have to drill to a different area and dive them to that area as the risk of roof collapse drilling directly above would seem a big risk?)
a tint bit of research suggests drilling a sample bore hole 50m down (and these are 3 inch holes) takes around 3 days - so yeah depending how far down they are this could be quite a task... think tesla guy has sent some of his boaring people over but not sure if thats more pr or genuinely an option
Those smaller gaps are flooded already, apparently.
surely if they drill from above they're risking all sorts of issues like collapses and such? Seems a non-starter.
I think if it were possible they'd be doing it, but weather conditions are about to deteriorate. Rain was forecast to arrive again today with thunderstorms from Monday onward. There's a press conference due round about now that will hopefully provide fresh information.
I think they're pretty much right underneath a 1km high hill. So if it's 50m/3 days then that's 60 days to dig down to them which, alongside all the other apparent issues, seems to be too slow.
I read in the Guardian (who have been pretty good reporting on this) that some climbers think they are close to finding a natural shaft that could get them pretty close to the kids.
Sounds quite vague at the moment... certainly given the timescales involved
2h ago11:23
Rescue teams are foraging through dense woodland above the cave complex looking for another way to extract the trapped football team.
Forecasts for torrential rain have threatened the favoured plan to bring the boys back through the water-logged passageways to the cave’s entrance and hastened the search for a viable alternative.
“We want to find the way down. I believe we are close,” Thanes Weerasiri, president of the Engineering Institute of Thailand, told Reuters at a makeshift camp near the cave as helicopters buzzed overhead.
Rescue workers get ready to explore an area for shafts near the Tham Luang cave complex. Photograph: Athit Perawongmetha/Reuters
Weerasiri’s engineers are chiselling away fragile limestone rocks that he said could be just hundreds of metres from where the boys are trapped.
“Originally we were exploring it as a way to bring supplies to the children from the back end of the cave, but now it could become more,” said Thanes.
Chalongchai Chaiyakum, a senior Thai army officer, said that one team travelled some 300 metres down a shaft on the hill on Thursday until they reached a dead end. He said that up to 200 people are exploring the hill to try to find a workable shaft.
Beginning to think they should take their chances with B.
Those boys cannot trek and swim out of there.
yeah just seen in another article 800m but still it looks a non starter
even looking up the fugures from musk and what they want to achieve (not achieved yet) they are talking 10X faster than normal tunnel boaring which is around 30ft a day - so even at 300ft a day with machines that dont exist yet it would be around 90 days
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Elon...tunneling-projects-across-dozens-of-countries
so yeah unless there is a natural existing tunel that gets you like 99% of the way there already then I dont think its gonna happen - even the tunnel which sounded promicing got way less than half the way you would have needed.
looks like the dive rescue is the only viable option in the timeframes given the expected rains?
I think they're hoping they'll find a second access to the tunnel system. Given sufficient time, they probably can. It's a very fraught process though, if they drill (as they'd probably have to at some stage) and they trigger a rock fall or open up an underwater stream by accident they could worsen conditions. They describe the mountain above them as being "like a sponge".
If they wait, looking for/creating a second access then they lose whatever chance they've got of taking the boys out through the current route. Very hard situation for the rescue teams. A lot of good people and good will on the ground, but it feels like they need some luck as well.
If they wait, looking for/creating a second access then they lose whatever chance they've got of taking the boys out through the current route. Very hard situation for the rescue teams. A lot of good people and good will on the ground, but it feels like they need some luck as well.
This is such a horrifying situation. It's crazy that with all the technological advances you can still quite easily end up in a near impossible situation.
Those kids must be mentally tortured by this - Feeling doomed, feeling saved and now this. I just hope they find some other way, the notion of diving always seemed impossible.
Those kids must be mentally tortured by this - Feeling doomed, feeling saved and now this. I just hope they find some other way, the notion of diving always seemed impossible.
You can drill much faster than 30ft/day via other means but, as I mentioned before, just getting the drilling equipment there in the first place and set up up is a huge challenge. It’s normally a months long process.
As far as fears of the cave collapsing on them, I think the actual concern would be the borehole collapsing on itself. Porous rock like this doesn’t make for solid wellbore walls. And of course what happens to all that debris when you finally puncture the room, though I think in this scenario they’d target a nearby offset cavern if possible.
Apparently a "major announcement" is expected at a news conference that begins around now, but today's search for routes from above seems like it was unsuccessful:
maybe if they get the kids with some similar setup , full face mask , a seal team can drag them out
Its 8pm in Thailand - the rains due to hit tomorrow - Im guessing its to say the dive operation is underway / about to get underway
Major announcement, i would guess they are going to try to swim/drag some kids out?
Edit: delayed one hour
Edit: delayed one hour
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