It's in the best interest of tennis that Novak continues for some more years and we get to see more of his battles with Carlos.
Tennis 2023
- Thread starter GuybrushThreepwood
- Start date
Also, especially as there were only 16 seeds back then, I get the feeling that early round matches were more dangerous for top players, as they could run into a good quality serve-volleyer at Wimbledon, clay court specialist at Roland Garros, a top 20 player in the 1st round etc.
When Borg dominated at Wimbledon for example, he faced and came through some titanic battles in the early rounds against lower ranked players that were dangerous and skilled on grass.
With 32 seeds at grand slams, alongside the homogenised conditions and huge decrease in variety in playing styles, it doesn't seem as difficult (of course I won't say it's easy) for the modern day top players to consistently reach the latter rounds of big tournaments on different surfaces.
I've said before that there has basically always been a good base level of depth in men's tennis during the open era. I definitely don't think that there's more depth in the ATP top 100 in 2023 than there was 30 years in 1993.
I can tell you for sure they don't have it.
The potential rivals are obvious, Rune, Sinner. And they have a long way to go.
I said elsewhere that Djokovic's defeat today could improve his US Open chances. Now he will not go into that tournament, surrounded the by the pressure and frenzy of potentially securing the calendar grand slam, like in 2021, and so could play more freely. Alcaraz as the defending champion and on the back of today's success will be the clear favourite. Djokovic faced more pressure in the 2021 US Open final and at that tournament as a whole, than Federer or Nadal have ever faced in any match or tournament during their careers. That's because a calendar grand slam bid is on a different level, compared to trying to win a record number of grand slam titles overall (if you fail there you always have the next grand slam, the one after that etc. to try and do it), or at any at any individual grand slam, or even trying to secure a 'non-calendar' 4 in a row sequence.
If I was in Djokovic's shoes (unfortunately I have to settle for playing tennis in my nearby park), and I could choose one more grand slam title to win, I'd definitely choose another US Open title over any other. That's the one grand slam where you can argue that he has 'underachieved 'at during his career given his ability on hard courts (though 3 titles is still excellent), and where he has some unfinished business (especially after what happened in 2020, the defeat in 2021, not being able to play there last year etc.).
If I was in Djokovic's shoes (unfortunately I have to settle for playing tennis in my nearby park), and I could choose one more grand slam title to win, I'd definitely choose another US Open title over any other. That's the one grand slam where you can argue that he has 'underachieved 'at during his career given his ability on hard courts (though 3 titles is still excellent), and where he has some unfinished business (especially after what happened in 2020, the defeat in 2021, not being able to play there last year etc.).
I don't see Djokovic winning the USO and tbh, given how its the only unpredictable Slam around, I won't be surprised if Carlos doesn't either and you have Medvedev win it. I think Novak is going to make sure he does well enough in the pre-USO Masters to ensure he stays in the Top 2 and doesn't slip to 3 and potentially risk facing Carlos in a semifinal.
Seems he does better against Alcaraz in semis.
Well done to Alcaraz, definitely a changing of the guard moment.
First time since 2002 that a person outside the big four (Fed/Nad/Djo,Mur) has won Wimbledon, crazy.
First time since 2002 that a person outside the big four (Fed/Nad/Djo,Mur) has won Wimbledon, crazy.
That is true. Last 3 US open winners have been Thiem, Medvedev and Alcaraz. Good opportunity for the likes of Ruud or Tsitsipas or Zverev to open their account.
"Novak is nowhere"
Those actions he acted out are as a result of the crowd being pro-Alacaraz from the very start. There were booed for goodness sake when he steamrolled the first set (pre any antics). The guy just does not get his dues, which is bizarre. The anti vax stuff is such a non issue, he never went around trying to convert anyone at all and his position on it makes sense given his early career.
Who cares what slam you won at as long as you won? If it's in terms of prestige, then Becker's 2 Wimbledons carry more weight. If its competition, Rafa's competition was tougher.
Might want to look up the term subjective in the dictionary, instead of coming on here, repeating your opinion ad nauseum, and calling it objective. Repeating yourself isn't going to make you any more correct in what you're saying. It's just you repeating...an opinion...which many disagree with.
And Borg did the channel slam several times during that era, in which you pointed out, the surfaces were not yet homogenised and playing at the French required a completely different skill set than playing at Wimbledon.
Stellar showing yesterday and more than his game, it was his mental fortitude that impressed me - he was able to mix it with Djokovic and best him on many occasions on the bigger / tighter points.
Stylistically, I still don’t find him that exctiging to be honest. He’s like a more aggressive (baby) version of Djokovic really. But it’s hard to call his game beautiful or graceful. I know it’s a very personal thing but I do hope we get another of that ilk coming through - maybe with a top serve and desire to come forward more. I think the courts play a part through - given every court plays the same it doesn’t incentivise anyone to play that way and spend their career watching passing shots whizz past.
Yep Borg doing the channel slam 3 years in a row from 1978-1980, and he came pretty close to making it 4 in a row in 1981, is one of the most amazing achievements in tennis history. Also he had to overcome dangerous US / Australian players in the early rounds at Wimbledon, and dangerous clay court specialists in the early rounds at Roland Garros.
He was 4-0 vs. Connors at Wimbledon (there was a mention earlier of him avoiding Connors heavily which is not close to being true) , with 2 tough 5 set battles and 2 one sided, straight sets beatdowns, which was also very good going. In the 1978 US Open final, he played with a painful thumb injury and his racket flew out of his hand following serves. Then again like Djokovic, maybe often luck was on his side at Wimbledon and against him at the US Open. It sounds like instead of 5 Wimbledon titles and 0 US Open, he could quite easily have instead ended up with something like 3 Wimbledon titles and 2 US Open finals.
Well to be fair, going into the 2021 US Open, Medvedev was one of the 3 main title favourites alongside Djokovic and Zverev. He'd lost a 5 set final there in 2019 with another semi-final appearance in 2020, had reached the Australian Open final earlier that year (when many people predicted that he'd beat Djokovic), was the reigning ATP Finals champion, and had won the Toronto title (already his 4th masters series title) in the lead-up. So his win was not really a surprise, especially with Djokovic facing the huge pressure of trying to win a calendar grand slam (pressure that Federer or Nadal never faced), and it felt like it was his time.
And last year, Alcaraz was the 3rd favourite behind Medvedev and Nadal, but Medvedev was slumping and struggled to recover from his Australian Open final defeat against Nadal (plus the political situation didn't help him), and Nadal looked vulnerable after injury problems at Roland Garros (though he still won that) and Wimbledon. Plus Alcaraz had already won 2 masters series titles that year, one on hard courts, and the other beating Nadal and Djokovic back to back. So despite him only being 19 I don't think his win was a shock either.
Thiem was probably the 2nd favourite to win the 2020 US Open after Djokovic, becoming the favourite after the disqualification. He'd already reached 3 grand slam finals at that point, including a 5 set defeat to Djokovic in that year's Australian Open final.
This year, other than Alcaraz and Medvedev, I'd currently favour him to beat most other opponents over best of 5 sets (though maybe Rune, Sinner etc., will become more serious threats), and I'd probably still give him no worse than a 50-50 chance vs. Medvedev, especially without the calendar grand slam pressure on his shoulders. We'll see though. I don't think he should go all out and exert unnecessary energy to try and win either the Toronto and Cincinnati titles in the lead-up. Just getting enough matches under his belt ahead of travelling to New York is more than good enough. Masters series results don't really matter for him at this stage of his career, and they didn't matter for Nadal in the past few years either.
Havent watched a tennis match in a good, good while and watched end of 3rd and then 4th and 5th set yesterday. What a quality tennis match, it was a pure joy to watch, so many quality shots, points, beautiful. I love how the upper hand changed over the match, end of 3rd Alcaraz is on the up and it seems like its slipping out of Đoković's hands but then Novak ups his game, wins the 4th and you think he's the favorite for the 5th. But no, Alcaraz plays a monstrous 5th set and wins it.
You have to play a monstrous match to win against Đoković and lots of times even that is not enough, along with having a strong, strong head. To see a 20 year old having all that yesterday and more is fantastic.
Well done lad! He's going to be some player.
You have to play a monstrous match to win against Đoković and lots of times even that is not enough, along with having a strong, strong head. To see a 20 year old having all that yesterday and more is fantastic.
Well done lad! He's going to be some player.
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It's weird how until the 2020 US Open we had no GS winner born in the 1990s and now (I know he already won one in 2022) we have a guy born in 2003. 
I think I must agree. To do it in that era, especially, is remarkable. Thanks for the info in the second paragraph. It was interesting and useful to read. The difference in fortunes from his French/Wimbledon and the US Open is a little headscratching but maybe, as you said, some of it is based on luck going his way at Wimbledon and not so at the US open.
But you’re doing the exact same with zero context. I give you context and your rebuttal is basically non-existent other than basically “because”.
Why was Nadals competition better? (A 4 and 7 time Slam winning not actually defending his crown vs a 23 time slam winner defending 4 on the bounce…. the rest of the tour fairly equal really, you do what you want with that one)
In terms of prestige, US-Wimbledon are equal. Always been the 2 key ones, why is winning the 2 separate one not values over 2 at the same? (something he can equal anyway potentially)
Why does the rest of career up to 20 not matter? (World number 1, performances elsewhere, complete game etc etc)
The context is true though. Up until the age of 20 at Slams. They met twice, at the US, on
clay. He lost both… I don’t think he steamrolls RG so much if Connors politics aligned with him actually playing it.
Mind you, I’ reasonably happy with Borg being there anyway. In a world now solely obsessed with the number alone, Borg and Connors are now incredibly underrated.
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A good thing is that Alcaraz is a very attacking tennis player, he doesn't like defending that much which males him a very exciting player to watch.
Literally just got into this within the past week by catching the Wimbledon matches at the coffeeshop that I go to work at, and I'm really glad I got to catch the final while at the gym of all places. Can say I'm now a full fledged tennis fan!
Tsitsipas stands no chance with his backhand. And Zverev is finding his way back after coming back from injury.
Ruud has had a terrible year despite making the FO finals. He's lost to numerous random players in so many tournaments this year, but just based on his pattern of finals after 2nd round exit, he may reach US open finals.
Sinner and Rune stand better chance than the ones you listed but even they have to show more in their game.
I'll be shocked if anyone other than Djokovic/Alcaraz/Medvedev wins the US open in that order.
Extended highlight from Wimbledon, a lovely final from both Djokovic and Alcaraz
I can't wait to see both of them compete with each other in other finals. Novak still can maintain his level, and Alcaraz is on the way to climbing to the highest point of Everest.
Which win was more impressive at 20:
delpo in USO ‘09
Alcaraz in Wim ‘23
delpo in USO ‘09
Alcaraz in Wim ‘23
Hard to decide. Maybe recency bias but Alcaraz improvement and quality on grass was very rapid. Del Po was already a known, dangerous hard court tennis player at the time. 2009 Federer was closer to his peak than Djokovic is now (my opinion). Both impressive for sure. Probably 2009 Del Po win was a bigger "shock", but Alcaraz performance on grass is phenomenal. Scary phenomenal.
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I think Del Potro because he played a young Roger. Carlos is almost as impressive though.
It's probably going to be one of those for sure but it's a strange Slam and the only one where you definitely cannot predict the winner beforehand.
Del Potro also destroyed Nadal in the semi finals, even if Nadal had an abdominal tear, still an impressive win before the final.
So Zverev is truly a zver (beast).
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https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/21/sport/amarissa-toth-apologizes-backlash-spt-intl/index.html
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Yeah I was going to point that out. He beat Nadal 2-2-2, which was remarkable. And then took down Federer who - at the time - was the best frontrunner in tennis, coming back from deficits ar 1-0 and 2-1.
I think at that point Federer had won 5 in a row at the US Open. The crazy thing is he never won a US Open again.
Anyone watching? Carlito Novak at the Cinci 1000 final.
Fancy Novak.
Fancy Novak.
Djokovic just too good for Carlos so far. Carlos, like he often does, seems to be over hitting and missing shots in his aggression. Think Carlos can calm down and force 3 sets though. He's struggled all week but he's fought well.
yes Ump.Utterly awful game full of errors by Novak for Carlos to get back on serve!
Carlos had a chance to break in that game but Djoko comes clutch.