Huh? You're now on GSs only? What about other stuff, like tournament wins or time as number one?
Tennis 2018
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Huh? You're now on GSs only? What about other stuff, like tournament wins or time as number one?
Assuming Djokovic or Nadal catch him on those (or at a minimum very close) by then. They are 4 and 5 years younger than Fed so that's a lot of time to make up ground.
Btw, Djokovic is back in top 10. From here on till end of year, he has everything to gain as far as ATP points are concerned so he should get to top 5 at least by end of year.
Nadal on another day could have won that match yesterday especially if the roof was open.
Then you factor in his long drawn out match with Del Potro.
It just shows he’s here to stay for a while considering his consistency considering he had two long drawn matches. He’d definitely currently would be my favourite for the US open.
Let’s not forget when Novak was back to his previous level which was 2015 really, Nadal was terrible and couldn’t even win one clay court title. Kept losing to Fognini.
I think both are back to their best now, so makes exciting times.
Wawrinka, through the help of Magnus Norman, raised his game dramatically. The lights out tennis he was capable of displaying for periods was on show more consistently. That rise had little to do with competition. It was to do with his own development. He was hitting lines from all over the court and the knowledge he could take the game off an opponent's racket aided this.
Yep.
Norman had a similar impact on Soderling who played similar to Wawrinka but had a massive forehand rather than backhand.
So did Canas in two isolated matches. Federer was in a very poor form that year and had issues. Kinda under stable to have injuries here and there after 15 years on tour.
Warwinka and Cilic aren’t even better than Hewitt and Safin if you take peak level.
Come on mate Wawrinka and Cilic have beaten old Federer 4 times in their careers in 30 odd meetings and you say they will be tougher opponents for him at his peak? What kind of logic is that?
Yet he managed to beat Federer 3 times out of 23 meetings. Even when hitting his peak was still handled pretty easy most of the times by a Federer who is 2-3 levels below his absolute best.
What's your point?
Wawrinka developed his game and played phenomenal tennis on three big occasions. His record is poor against the likes of Federer because he's an obviously poorer tennis player. Hence handled 'most of the time'. But he still improved. It wasn't like his level of tennis was stagnant and he somehow fluked his way to three Slam victories.
Hewitt was nowhere close to Wawrinka. Just got lucky playing in mediocre field. Won't even been top 10 in last decade. A guy who is a has-been player since age of 25 can't be taken seriously.
Safin yes, better player but there is lots of "could have been" about him. For Safin, there is Del Potro from past decade. A player superior to likes of Wawrinka but injuries limited him.
He still improved but the field got weaker in the same time. It was not only due to his phenomenal resurgence, which is my point.
The notion that he would be tougher opponent for Federer regardless of improvement if he’s placed in 04-07 seems completely out of place IMO.
Yeah, I hope so. I’m always careful about making really long term pronouncements about Nadal outside of the French because of the effects of the grass/hard swings on his body.
But, based on this fortnight alone, he’ll get close to winning slams other than the French. It’s just whether there are a few other guys who are really on it at the same time. If so, it’s so hard to tell the effect those absolute gruellers will have on him and whether each of those steps will cost him a step down the line.
And yet a player that was virtually a nobody before 28 is better?
Hewitt lost to Federer 8 or 10 consecutive times at Federer’s peak, beat Sampras for his USO, he was that consistent.
Delpo is great when fit but that is very, very rare occurrence however unfortunately.
Don't remember Borg. Djokovic while not as pleasant on eye and consistent as Federer, might have actually had a higher peak. Peak Nadal on general a bit lowerr, but on French open is better than any tennis player in whatever GS you choose.
Edit: Elo ranking seem to agree with me, having Djoker at the top.
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Better by virtue of winning 3 slams in toughest era. Not like Hewitt who is past it since age of 25 and claim to fame is from period when Agassi and sampras were closer to retirement and there was vacuum. It doesn't take peak Federer to beat Hewitt so many times, anybody can beat him. A guy who reached grand total of 1 QF after turning 25 stands nowhere close to Murray or Wawrinka.
BTW, who do you see as the GOAT as I'm not sure who you support mate, from all the posts, Nadal or Djokovic?
Wawrinka used the same vacuum with most of the top guys not at their best or with Djokovic losing focus. Wawrinka wouldn't trouble peak Federer one bit, his game plays too much in Fed's hands.
It's just struck me that Hanks daughter in California then grew up to be Claire Balding.
I mentioned a few times, one post you quoted too, that Federer is of now but by small margins.BTW, who do you see as the GOAT as I'm not sure who you support mate, from all the posts, Nadal or Djokovic?
Wawrinka used the same vacuum with most of the top guys not at their best or with Djokovic losing focus. Wawrinka wouldn't trouble peak Federer one bit, his game plays too much in Fed's hands.
I think one of the GOAT arguments for Federer which should be emphasised is:
8-times Wimbledon
6-times AO
5-times US
6-times WTF
All are records, and that is amazing consistency. I don't think any one player is going to be able to take them all.
(Djoko needs 4 Wimbledon titles and 3 more US Opens, and 1 WTF; Nadal has 4 US but is not in the same league for the other 4).
I also think that if Fed had won his 2009 AO Final, this debate would be totally dead. I think that was an even better match than 2008 Wimbledon and probably the best level he's played and still lost.
I was looking at their H2H and just wrote down what I saw. You're referring to 2011 (and AO 2012), which I noted. The H2H was even after that spell.
8-times Wimbledon
6-times AO
5-times US
6-times WTF
All are records, and that is amazing consistency. I don't think any one player is going to be able to take them all.
(Djoko needs 4 Wimbledon titles and 3 more US Opens, and 1 WTF; Nadal has 4 US but is not in the same league for the other 4).
I also think that if Fed had won his 2009 AO Final, this debate would be totally dead. I think that was an even better match than 2008 Wimbledon and probably the best level he's played and still lost.
I was looking at their H2H and just wrote down what I saw. You're referring to 2011 (and AO 2012), which I noted. The H2H was even after that spell.
I hate it when Wimbledon is over.
From April to July it’s the best part of the tennis season for me from the clay to grass.
I said earlier in the week it wasn’t a great tournament so far. But the two quarters featuring Nadal and Federer as well as the two semi finals made the tournament a good one even though the final was a bit of a damp squib.
It was the best slam in a while because of those four matches.
From April to July it’s the best part of the tennis season for me from the clay to grass.
I said earlier in the week it wasn’t a great tournament so far. But the two quarters featuring Nadal and Federer as well as the two semi finals made the tournament a good one even though the final was a bit of a damp squib.
It was the best slam in a while because of those four matches.
Overall H2H maybe relevant to the GOAT debate but is not relevant to a specific peak period. During that run, Djoko had Nadal's number in all big matches. Even in French final in 2011, Djoko looked like he could push Nadal to the fifth before the rain came. That was not an injured Nadal in any sense so that is why I said that at his peak Djoko did beat a peak Nadal to win those titles and go on that kind of historic run.
It's a fair argument that Djokovic's peak is probably the best of all time imo.
Yep. Hate to say it (cause I am a big Federer fan) but at his peak, Djoker was better than the other two. If Djoker didn't have these terrible couple of years when his mind wasn't in the pitch, he would have won another few GS, and be really in discussion for the GOAT. As it is, he needs to win another few grand slams, which he can do considering that Federer is definitely past it, Nadal isn't anymore really great outside of French open, and there aren't top young players. If he can get at least 17 GS (3 less than Federer) he should be in discussion about it.
Nadal in my opinion isn't GOAT as it is. He is the best ever in a specific GS (French Open) but outside of it he has 'just' 6 GS wins (compare it to Federer's 12 GS outside of Wimbledon).
I think that's a fair assessment. The mental side of the game is also part of the GOAT criteria and Djokovic's issues do count against him. However, he still has time to make up for it like you said. If he gets back to his peak form he has a chance of getting close to Fed's 20.
I would rule out Nadal for similar reasons, you can't be the GOAT racking up titles on one surface and only have 6 titles in the other big 3 tournaments whilst his peers are pushing on 5+ on multiple surfaces. GOAT clay court player though no doubt.
2012 final? As in 2011 he lost to Federer in the semi.
The biggest hole in Nadal's resume is definitely indoors.
No WTF title there, and generally a bit shit when that time of the year comes. And it's about a third of a season.
Cheers. And Nadal or Djokovic second?
Yep, in fact I would add that Nadal at FO is better than any other player in whatever GS of their choice. But outside of it, he isn't in the level of Fed/Djoker.
Djokovic to me is the biggest clu*tch player ever. I know the mental issues he had in the past two years, but before that he was fantastic in that department.
The way he overturned Nadal in 2011, the way he saved 2 MP on two occasions against Federer at the USO, then again at Wimbey against him in the 5th, etc.
If we talk about peak level tho, Djokovic can match Federer only at the AO and that is not rebound ace. Djokovic peak level is below what we used to see from Federer at Wimbey and the USO.
To me Djokovic overachieved at Wimbey(his game isn't that suited on grass) and underachieved at the USO having only 2 titles there.
I will go with Nadal for now as 2nd.
Though in terms of peak level, I think he may well have matched the others at the US Open (2010 and 2013), Wimbledon (2008) and Australian Open (2009 and 2012 where he lost the final)
In total he's lost 7 slam finals outside of Roland Garros, so I don't think it's as big a stick to beat him on.
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That sounds quite psychotic. On the court Djokovic is one of most mentally strong players there's ever been. Who actually knows what he was going in his personal life in the last few years?
Would you hold someone have a personal crisis against them in any other job or field?
Haha your mother died - while the time you were crying like a little bitch, I made a few millions.
Though Nadal is the one who's pushed them both to their limits at their best on their own surfaces. 2012 AO, their US open finals, Federer at Wimledon 2007 and 2008, and AO final of 2009.
Nadals injuries have really held him back from doing it consistently though.
Only Djoker has really pushed Nadal to his limit at the French - 2013 French Open Semi final.
In GOAT level discussions these details matter, top sportsmen go through all sorts of issues on and off the field. And like i said he has time to overcome it. For all we know it could have been the pressure of playing at such a high level and the expectation on his shoulders.
As for the bold bit, i've never insinuated that, so not sure what you are getting at. If it is personal , i feel very sorry for him for whatever he went through and hope he can overcome whatever it is.
People also underestimate how important was Mirka for Federer and his longevity. The support with all the kids and clearing his head for everything apart from tennis.
This is not the case with Djokovic and Jelena.
I’m loath to get into players’ personal lives but what does that refer to? Is there a known issue that’s been affecting him.
There has been widely spread rumors that Jelena had a big part in both training regimes and also wanting more family time with Djokovic, as well as talks about a rift between them at the last year USO. He also flew from Qatar to MC when she was having their baby and was late in preparation for the AO. She's a bit more obsessive and was largely involved with training sessions which also caused rift with Vajda and it went downhill for him from there as well as his elbow injuries.
As soon as Vajda is back in his box he's playing much better and close to top level.
Of course nothing definite but it seems that she's more dominant as a character and one can explain the difference in mentality since that FO win.
Federer has lost 10, Djokovic has lost 9.
If Djokovic manages to win as many GS as Nadal, then it shouldn't even be a discussion on whom was better considering that Djokovic outside of AU would be quite better than Nadal outside of FO. Let's say (for the sake of argument), Novak wins another 2 AU, 1 Wimbledon and 1 US Open. Then his titles would look something like: 8 Australian Open, 5 Wimbledon, 3 US Open, 1 French Open, compared to Nadal's 11 French Open, 3 US Open, 2 Wimbledon and 1 Australian Open. The distribution of Djokovic's trophies would be better.
Of course, easier said than done, but yea, I think that if Djokovic's matches in GS Nadal, then he should be considered greater. Same is he manages to reach Federer considering that he had a higher peak *. Also, Djokovic leads on head-to-head vs both (although it is extremely narrow, 1 victory more than Nadal, 2 more than Federer). If his head is on the right place, he has every chance to win another few GS.
Would suck though, always had the fear that Nadal - not Djokovic - will catch Federer. To be fair, Nadal might catch Federer too, he'll just win French Open 2019, 2020 and 2021.
* Djokovic's peak was insane, in 2015 until FO of 2016, he won 3 Slams, 6 Masters, but more importantly, he defeated 31 top 10 players. He went 7-0 against Nadal, 6-3 against Federer and 9-3 against Murray. Yes, his % was slightly lower than Federer's 2005, but in all other aspects he was better, including defeating twice as many top 10 players.
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That’s harsh on Nadal.
Firstly he puts a lot of effort into the clay season that sometimes it can effect his season especially coming into Grass. There’s a reason why only him, Fed and Bjorg have won French and Wimbledon back to back. You reaching nearly every clay final and winning the majority of them then you gotta switch over to grass. Maybe instead of having a go at Nadal question why the other two can’t beat him at the French. I know Djokovic did in 2015. But Nadal was rubbish that year. He only won one clay court title and that was in July after the clay court season had finished in Hamburg. He lost to Fognini three times. Once where he was two sets up in a grand slam, which was the first time in his career. He also lost to Murray in a clay court final. It was the first time in his career that he never won one of Monte Carlo, Rome, Madrid, Barcelona and French.
You can’t say Nadal isn’t great on other surfaces. He’s reached the final of AO and US open just last year. He got injured against Cilic when he was 2 sets to 1 and probably reached another AO final. He just lost in a epic Semi final.
People don’t give Nadal credit enough for winning 11 French opens. They say oh he’s won 11 French opens let’s minus them. French open is the most technical and gruelling out of all the slams. It’s why rarely big hitters or big servers get close to winning it. It’s why someone like Sampras as good as he was could never come close to winning one. His serve wasn’t as effective on clay as it was on other surfaces.
Don't mind the Nadal haters. Some Federer fans can't stand to see other players win Majors. They will go to any lengths to badmouth and criticise Nadal and other players.
Curses at non-Federer winners!
*shakes fist*
*shakes fist*
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