Tennis 2018

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Yes.

I'm a gigantic Federer fan so there's nothing unusual about it despite your sense of alarm. I don't hate Nadal at all. Great chap and great tennis player. I just want Federer to be more successful.
For me, individual sport gets me more tense than a team sport. Tennis players come and go, the team is there forever, always competing. Nadal matches are ten times more nervy for me than any United matches.
And as for wanting Nadal to lose, that's fairly obvious :lol: As a Nadal fan, I always want Federer to crash out of Slams so he can close the gap. Don't know why people are acting surprised.
 
ah, I thought Isner was next opponent. 3-1 Novak then.
Yeah, Djoko is a slight favorite for me as well. He's been the best player in the tournament so far imo. He's also faced a tougher path than Nadal.
 
For me, individual sport gets me more tense than a team sport. Tennis players come and go, the team is there forever, always competing. Nadal matches are ten times more nervy for me than any United matches.
And as for wanting Nadal to lose, that's fairly obvious :lol: As a Nadal fan, I always want Federer to crash out of Slams so he can close the gap. Don't know why people are acting surprised.
I think it is surprising, but more because I don’t really get the being an obsessive fan of one player thing. My favourite player to watch/the player who has given me most joy over the years is Federer, but I can honestly say I’m more into there being a great match, regardless of the winner, than seeing him just swat people aside.

All things being equal, if there has to be a winner of a brilliant match I’m generally happiest for it to be him, but if, say, Nadal outplays him, I’m equally happy, if that makes sense. I dunno. Different strokes for different folks.
 
I think it is surprising, but more because I don’t really get the being an obsessive fan of one player thing. My favourite player to watch/the player who has given me most joy over the years is Federer, but I can honestly say I’m more into there being a great match, regardless of the winner, than seeing him just swat people aside.

All things being equal, if there has to be a winner of a brilliant match I’m generally happiest for it to be him, but if, say, Nadal outplays him, I’m equally happy, if that makes sense. I dunno. Different strokes for different folks.
Never go on a tennis forum. Tennis fans are a really weird bunch and they end up giving strange nicknames to rival players like Olderer, Nadull, Chokovic etc.

They make the endless Messi/Ronaldo fanbois on here look tolerable.
 
I think it is surprising, but more because I don’t really get the being an obsessive fan of one player thing. My favourite player to watch/the player who has given me most joy over the years is Federer, but I can honestly say I’m more into there being a great match, regardless of the winner, than seeing him just swat people aside.

All things being equal, if there has to be a winner of a brilliant match I’m generally happiest for it to be him, but if, say, Nadal outplays him, I’m equally happy, if that makes sense. I dunno. Different strokes for different folks.
Tennis rivalries, if you frequent forums or even social media like Twitter, are a lot like the Ronaldo Messi debates. I think it's pretty easy to get obsessed with an individual imo. I respect and admire Federer for the amazing player he is but I always want Nadal to win and Federer to lose because it's a rivalry at the end of the day and as a Nadal fan, I want him to leapfrog Federer or atleast finish within a Slam or two. Who doesn't want their favorite to be the GOAT eh (unless you support Andy Murray)?
 
Never go on a tennis forum. Tennis fans are a really weird bunch and they end up giving strange nicknames to rival players like Olderer, Nadull, Chokovic etc.

They make the endless Messi/Ronaldo fanbois on here look tolerable.

It wasn't always like this though. Its mainly a recent internet thing that took flight with the rise of social media.
 
Never go on a tennis forum. Tennis fans are a really weird bunch and they end up giving strange nicknames to rival players like Olderer, Nadull, Chokovic etc.

They make the endless Messi/Ronaldo fanbois on here look tolerable.
One of the reasons I can't ever stay on Tennis Talk forum too long. The amount of trolling, immaturity and bitterness is worse than anything I've seen in Ronaldo vs Messi debates. Their is clearly a lot of knowledge and it's not all bad, but some of the Federer - Nadal rivalry brings the worst out of some fans. I'll back one of Federer's opponents as a Nadal fan, but I don't get upset when he wins or ecstatic when he loses. I'm a tennis fan first so try not to get caught up in all the fandom.
 
I must be only one disappointed Federer lost.

Wanted him to play Novak or a repeat of the final from 10 years ago would have been fitting. I just wanna watch these players play each other as much as they can because in a few years we will miss it.

Federer is 36 so he hasn’t got many more Wimbledons left, so let’s enjoy these rivalries whilst they still here and watch them play as much as they can. So I don’t get wanting them to lose or getting satisfaction out of it. Because in a few years time most of these people will end up saying I miss the Federer vs Nadal matches. Well you didn’t miss it at the time when you wanted one of them to go out early!

I hope Murray can come back and we can have a semi final consisting of the big four. It’s been a while since we had that. Anyone know when was the last time?
 
I have zero interest in seeing Murray again, in fact i completely forgot about him until his name came up recently.

I would love for Novak to make a full comeback though.
 
I must be only one disappointed Federer lost.

Wanted him to play Novak or a repeat of the final from 10 years ago would have been fitting. I just wanna watch these players play each other as much as they can because in a few years we will miss it.

Federer is 36 so he hasn’t got many more Wimbledons left, so let’s enjoy these rivalries whilst they still here and watch them play as much as they can. So I don’t get wanting them to lose or getting satisfaction out of it. Because in a few years time most of these people will end up saying I miss the Federer vs Nadal matches. Well you didn’t miss it at the time when you wanted one of them to go out early!

I hope Murray can come back and we can have a semi final consisting of the big four. It’s been a while since we had that. Anyone know when was the last time?
Roger losing = more chances of Nadal winning so yeah I 'm delighted he lost.
 
Thinking pushing Federer to Court 1 for the first time in 2.5 years, that too in the QFs was unfair on him. Well done to Anderson - he was blemishless the last 2 sets but the organizers did screw over Federer with that change with him having no match practice on that court for a long time.
Wimbledon will be poorer with him not being involved and it's a crying shame.
 
Thinking pushing Federer to Court 1 for the first time in 2.5 years, that too in the QFs was unfair on him. Well done to Anderson - he was blemishless the last 2 sets but the organizers did screw over Federer with that change with him having no match practice on that court for a long time.
Wimbledon will be poorer with him not being involved and it's a crying shame.
Screwed him over? He's had the luxury of being on CC for every match since 2015 or something.

It turned out to be a great match, but on paper it was the third best match of the day and deserved to be on court 1. Djokovic is a three time champion and has played on court 2 this year which is a lot more 'unfair' than this.
 
Most players get pushed from court to court all the time, so I don't think a move is unfair. Though arguably they should have done it more often in recent years.

I did wonder though, in that final set, if he'd have got the win on Centre Court. Not because it would have changed his performance that much. Rather because Anderson might have found the crowd and the pressure greater. We might never have seen that comeback at all in that situation.
 
Fed said he didn’t find the court to be the issue.

His downfall started with the 20 minutes in which he missed virtually every forehand, hard or easy in the 3rd set. I was super pissed at the way he dropped serve and then squandered away the 3 break back points. Fair enough if Anderson just aced his way back into that game but 2 of those points were lost on routine shots that he’d bank himself to pull off 10 times out of 10 normally.

Anderson got 64% of his first serve pts that set. Losing from that position is just pathetic, but then again in the past 2 years Fed have lost 4 matches where he held match points, so it shouldn’t be surprising at this point.
 
I skimmed through the BBC Nadal/Del Potro live feed during the halftime and changeover breaks in the England match. It sounded like a great final set. I guess that was inevitable given that I couldn't watch.
 
Nadal might just match or surpass Federer's grand slam tally if he stays injury free for another few years....
 
Nadal might just match or surpass Federer's grand slam tally if he stays injury free for another few years....
If he wins here it'll help a lot. 20-18 and with 3 titles on Fed's surface would be huge. Can expect him to another RG or two down the line as well and maybe luck out at a USO/Aussie. Still don't see him winning here though.

I skimmed through the BBC Nadal/Del Potro live feed during the halftime and changeover breaks in the England match. It sounded like a great final set. I guess that was inevitable given that I couldn't watch.
The last set was tense and phenomenal tennis.

Thinking pushing Federer to Court 1 for the first time in 2.5 years, that too in the QFs was unfair on him. Well done to Anderson - he was blemishless the last 2 sets but the organizers did screw over Federer with that change with him having no match practice on that court for a long time.
Wimbledon will be poorer with him not being involved and it's a crying shame.
Why is it unfair? Just because it's Roger Federer? He's played 19 matches in a row on CC which is just ridiculous. Nadal and Djoko played 2 matches off CC last year, Djoko has even played on C2 this year so why should Federer face any special treatment? Besides, Novak Kei and Nadal Del Po were supposed to be the better matches anyway. Everyone should play off the main courts at every Slam and Wimledon is one which shows a heavy bias in favor of Federer and CC so it's only fair he finally was made to play there and only fair that Djoko got a match on CC.
 
If he wins here it'll help a lot. 20-18 and with 3 titles on Fed's surface would be huge. Can expect him to another RG or two down the line as well and maybe luck out at a USO/Aussie. Still don't see him winning here though.


The last set was tense and phenomenal tennis.


Why is it unfair? Just because it's Roger Federer? He's played 19 matches in a row on CC which is just ridiculous. Nadal and Djoko played 2 matches off CC last year, Djoko has even played on C2 this year so why should Federer face any special treatment? Besides, Novak Kei and Nadal Del Po were supposed to be the better matches anyway. Everyone should play off the main courts at every Slam and Wimledon is one which shows a heavy bias in favor of Federer and CC so it's only fair he finally was made to play there and only fair that Djoko got a match on CC.

Already really should have 3 tbh. Injury screwed him of one in his prime - would've won it in 09, if he was fit enough to play.
 
Should be a good ladies final. Sounds like both in some good form.
 
Already really should have 3 tbh. Injury screwed him of one in his prime - would've won it in 09, if he was fit enough to play.
Injury has screwed him out of a lot of Slams when he was at his best but that's how sport is.
 
Nadal surpassing federer in slams would be interesting and a bit lovely.
 
I get the impression both Federer and Nadal are still in it for one reason - Legacy. They both know that whoever finishes with the most slams will have a strong case for being the best player ever. They both are acutely aware of how many the other has and its no coincidence that they both suddenly started playing at a high level again around the same time after the Djokovic/Murray lull.
 
I get the impression both Federer and Nadal are still in it for one reason - Legacy. They both know that whoever finishes with the most slams will have a strong case for being the best player ever. They both are acutely aware of how many the other has and its no coincidence that they both suddenly started playing at a high level again around the same time after the Djokovic/Murray lull.

Federer's pretty much been recognised as the GOAT as far back as 2007 (before he's had the slams record). He's always said he's wanted to play so that his kids could see him, and I genuinely think he still loves playing. Rafa's only just turned 32 - so he felt like he still had a lot in his locker, after a few lacklustre years.

I don't think they care that much about the slams record at this point really.
 
Federer's pretty much been recognised as the GOAT as far back as 2007. He's always said he's wanted to play so that his kids could see him, and I genuinely think he still loves playing. Rafa's only just turned 32 - so he felt like he still had a lot in his locker, after a few lacklustre years.

I'm sure they both still love playing otherwise they would've retired by now. But the slam issue is definitely looming since they have won all the slams since early 2017. Had Federer not had his recent resurgence, Nadal would likely be even with him now - conversely if not for Nadal's recent comeback, Fed would be up by 6.

For Nadal to claim the GOAT status, he will have to not only catch Federer, but pass him since Fed has won significantly more tournaments over his career.
 
For Nadal to claim the GOAT status, he will have to not only catch Federer, but pass him since Fed has won significantly more tournaments over his career.

If Nadal reaches the same number as Federer, he will be the GOAT in the eyes of many. He is in front in head2head at Grand Slams, that has to count for something.
 
If Nadal reaches the same number as Federer, he will be the GOAT in the eyes of many. He is in front in head2head at Grand Slams, that has to count for something.

Even if they are tied, Nadal will still have to deal with the following where Federer leads

  • Most weeks at the number one player in the world - 309 (Nadal is 6th at 177)
  • Most consecutive weeks at #1 - 237 (Nadal is 11th at 56)
  • Most ATP singles titles ever: Here Federer is 2nd behind Connors. (Nadal is 4th)
  • Most ATP singles finals: Roger is 2nd behind Connors, Rafa is 4th
  • Most Slam Finals 30 (Nadal 24)
  • Most Slam match wins 332 (Nadal is 3rd behind Djokovic at 237)
  • All time match winning % on hard courts (Roger #1 - Rafa#11)
  • All time match winning % on clay (Rafa #1 - Roger not in the top 10)
  • All time match winning % on grass (Roger #2 - Rafa not in the top 10)
  • Career match wins v top 10 opponents - Roger #1 at 214, Rafa #4 at 159

This is why Rafa will need to clearly pass Federer in slams and retain his head to head lead (Federer has won the last 5 meetings, despite being well behind earlier).
 
I think the fact so many of Rafa's slams being won on clay will also be a factor in the GOAT argument. Certainly the fact he did win on all the other surfaces helps, but people will still point to the fact his tally will be heavily skewed by clay. This is assuming he essentially catches Federer by winning the French Open a few more times.
 
Even if they are tied, Nadal will still have to deal with the following where Federer leads

  • Most weeks at the number one player in the world - 309 (Nadal is 6th at 177)
  • Most consecutive weeks at #1 - 237 (Nadal is 11th at 56)
  • Most ATP singles titles ever: Here Federer is 2nd behind Connors. (Nadal is 4th)
  • Most ATP singles finals: Roger is 2nd behind Connors, Rafa is 4th
  • Most Slam Finals 30 (Nadal 24)
  • Most Slam match wins 332 (Nadal is 3rd behind Djokovic at 237)
  • All time match winning % on hard courts (Roger #1 - Rafa#11)
  • All time match winning % on clay (Rafa #1 - Roger not in the top 10)
  • All time match winning % on grass (Roger #2 - Rafa not in the top 10)
  • Career match wins v top 10 opponents - Roger #1 at 214, Rafa #4 at 159

This is why Rafa will need to clearly pass Federer in slams and retain his head to head lead (Federer has won the last 5 meetings, despite being well behind earlier).


Sounds like you had that on copy paste from previous discussions;)

I just think to the general audience, they will rarely care about win % on some courts or about wins vs top 10 players. They care about Slams mostly and if that will be tied, they look at who was better in head to head. I don‘t say that is the definitive way to determine a goat in tennis, I know too little about the sport to have that claim. I am casually interested, like most people who watch the sport. That is why I can‘t enter expert discussions about who is greater/better, but just say how the public opinion will be shaped by a small amount of factors, not a long list of statistics.

A bit like in football where many people are not interested in how many goals have been scored and records have been broken by Messi, they care the most about the world cup and favour Maradona.
 
I think the fact so many of Rafa's slams being won on clay will also be a factor in the GOAT argument. Certainly the fact he did win on all the other surfaces helps, but people will still point to the fact his tally will be heavily skewed by clay. This is assuming he essentially catches Federer by winning the French Open a few more times.

True. Fed's slams seem to be a bit more evenly spread between Grass and Hard. But, if Rafa wins another US Open or two then that will likely remove that as a factor.
 
Even if they are tied, Nadal will still have to deal with the following where Federer leads

  • Most weeks at the number one player in the world - 309 (Nadal is 6th at 177)
  • Most consecutive weeks at #1 - 237 (Nadal is 11th at 56)
  • Most ATP singles titles ever: Here Federer is 2nd behind Connors. (Nadal is 4th)
  • Most ATP singles finals: Roger is 2nd behind Connors, Rafa is 4th
  • Most Slam Finals 30 (Nadal 24)
  • Most Slam match wins 332 (Nadal is 3rd behind Djokovic at 237)
  • All time match winning % on hard courts (Roger #1 - Rafa#11)
  • All time match winning % on clay (Rafa #1 - Roger not in the top 10)
  • All time match winning % on grass (Roger #2 - Rafa not in the top 10)
  • Career match wins v top 10 opponents - Roger #1 at 214, Rafa #4 at 159

This is why Rafa will need to clearly pass Federer in slams and retain his head to head lead (Federer has won the last 5 meetings, despite being well behind earlier).
Most of those stats won't matter in GOAT debate. It is individual sport and h2h matters. The field was really weak before Nadal-Djokovic-Murray came on scene and all those 'weeks at no. 1', 'consecutive weeks at no. 1' Federer has accumulated with that field is not same when it became 'big 4' and along with that, having other top players like Stan and Del Potro around in last decade. Federer has losing record in slams vs both Nadal and Djokovic. He has losing record overall vs both. If Nadal is tied with Federer on title or if even 1 behind, with those titles coming from surface other than clay, Nadal has better claim to GOAT. Say if Nadal wins 1 more Wimbledon and one more AO, then he will have minimum 2 at each slams, 3 on his weakest surface and then, even with his skewed count with RG, that will better all round performance in slams.

Nadal and Novak have winning record vs Federer on hard court in slams, on surface Federer is so strong at. Then there is Nadal's 2008 Wimbledon win, vs GOAT on grass and how he progressively got better in 06,07,08 finals. Federer meanwhile was utterly humiliated in 2008 FO by Nadal and overall never had chance vs Nadal at RG. Federer's stats have been helped a lot due to field till these guys came out of their teens.

As great as Connors was, he won't be put above Novak just because he has 40 odd more titles overall. Novak will edge it. Similarly, the more weeks at no. 1 and more titles of Federer are not a significant factor during GOAT debate vs Nadal.

For now, Federer edges debate slightly for me with 3 more titles but Nadal doesn't need to significantly go above him. Parity on titles with at least couple more titles on surface not clay and he will be GOAT for me.
 
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Most of those stats won't matter in GOAT debate. It is individual sport and h2h matters. The field was really weak before Nadal-Djokovic-Murray came on scene and all those 'weeks at no. 1', 'consecutive weeks at no. 1' Federer has accumulated with that field is not same when it became 'big 4' and along with that, having other top players like Stan and Del Potro around in last decade. Federer has losing record in slams vs both Nadal and Djokovic. He has losing record overall vs both. If Nadal is tied with Federer on title or if even 1 behind, with those titles coming from surface other than clay, Nadal has better claim to GOAT. Say if Nadal wins 1 more Wimbledon and one more AO, then he will have minimum 2 at each slams, 3 on his weakest surface and then, even with his skewed count with RG, that will better all round performance in slams.

Nadal and Novak have winning record vs Federer on hard court in slams, on surface Federer is so strong at. Then there is Nadal's 2008 Wimbledon win, vs GOAT on grass and how he progressively got better in 06,07,08 finals. Federer meanwhile was utterly humiliated in 2008 FO by Nadal and overall never had chance vs Nadal at RG. Federer's stats have been helped a lot due to field till these guys came out of their teens.

As great as Connors was, he won't be put above Novak just because he has 40 odd more titles overall. Novak will edge it. Similarly, the more weeks at no. 1 and more titles of Federer are not a significant factor during GOAT debate vs Nadal.

For now, Federer edges debate slightly for me with 3 more titles but Nadal doesn't need to significantly go above him. Parity on titles with at least couple more titles on surface not clay and he will be GOAT for me.

Head to heads will matter but they won't be the only thing in additional to slams. There are many other tournaments beyond the big four that will also be considered, and ultimately Federer and Nadal's tournaments won record will also come into play. What will certainly not matter are hypotheticals such as Federer not having the same amount of competition early on and that sort of thing. After all, if thought experiments mattered then Borg, who retired at 26 and didn't play in the Aussie - but still got 11 slams, would probably be considered the goat.
 
Head to heads will matter but they won't be the only thing in additional to slams. There are many other tournaments beyond the big four that will also be considered, and ultimately Federer and Nadal's tournaments won record will also come into play. What will certainly not matter are hypotheticals such as Federer not having the same amount of competition early on and that sort of thing. After all, if thought experiments mattered then Borg, who retired at 26 and didn't play in the Aussie - but still got 11 slams, would probably be considered the goat.
Those are not hypotheticals. Elo ratings can prove that and Elo ratings are significant in an individual sport. As a Federer fan you just want to avoid that point but given amount of tennis you follow, you can't possibly think that the field from 2004-2007 and what was there in last decade is same.
Also yes, I consider Borg very highly in GOAT debate, 3rd or 4th all time to me.

Yes other tournaments will be considered but with less weight that slams obviously. There isn't much between them on hard courts. In 3 grass court meetings, Nadal got progressively better and the less said about overall Clay, the better.
 
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