Tennis 2017

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Raees said:
Interesting, must admit with all the other categories I did, I look at it in relation to their respective peaks but with mental strength I looked at it is a cohesive whole because their entire career tells you more about what makes them tick between the ears. Peak mental strength is a concept I've never looked at but okay, I will go with that and you're probably right Djoko is up there in that regard.
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Yeah I think it has effect on matches and careers as a whole. For example take Djokovic since last year his mind is just not there. He also had lapses before that, but when he was on top of his game he was as solid as you can get. Same with Federer - having some mono, back issues back in 2008/2009 puts strain not only to the body but mind as well - if you know that there is a limit to what you can do this prevents you from choosing actions or approach that you usually do. Rafa with his parents divorce also seemed to had some effect on him, but not his usual clutch state when he was in his peak.


Rawls said:
Yeah, that's exactly what we had in mind. The problem is what players do we rank i.e. the Big Four of the modern era or the likes of Sampras or even the likes of Laver before him.
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I think we just move the ceiling. For example Sampras's serve is probably the best in history so if that gets a 10, Federer's get's a 9, Nadal gets a 7 and so forth.

If we're comparing only the top four then Federer's best of the lot - he gets a 10, but then Nadal's is not as inferior as compared to all past greats, so the margin should be narrower - he gets 7.5 and so forth.
 
Raees said:
First serve - Federer 9.5 Nadal 8.5
Second serve - Federer 10 v Nadal 8.5
Return of serve - Tie (8)
Defensive coverage (speed) - Nadal 10 v Federer 8.5
Volleying (technique) - Nadal 8.5 v Federer 8
Volleying (decision/approach) - Federer 9 v Nadal 7
Overhead smash - Federer 9.5 v Nadal 9
Forehand DTL - Federer 10 v Nadal 9.5
Forehand CC - Nadal 10 v Federer 9
Forehand Inside out - Tie (9.5)
Forehand Inside in - Federer 10 v Nadal 9
Backhand DTL - Federer 9.5 v Nadal 9
Backhand CC - Nadal 9.5 v Federer 8.5
Passing Shots - Nadal 10 v Federer 9
Slice - Federer 9 v Nadal 8
Drop shot - Federer 9.5 v Nadal 9
Lob - Nadal 9 v Federer 7.5
Power - Federer 9.5 v Nadal 9
Endurance - Nadal 10 v Federer 9.5
Mental strength - Nadal 10 v Federer 9.5
Adapatability (surface) - Nadal 10 v Federer 9
Tactical ability (reading opponent) - Tie (9.5)
Flair - Federer 10 v Nadal 8.5
Footwork - Tie

@Enigma_87

That was my original list, we can do it as a table perhaps, once we are all in agreement and weight the categories, include Djoko into it and maybe a few other select greats.

I split volleying into two separate categories, knowing when to approach the net and volley execution. For me Federer is astute at knowing when to come to net, but his volley execution isn't all that spectacular. Nadal rarely comes to net so should be docked points for that but when he does, it is pretty damn good.

Someone like McEnroe would probably get 10's on both counts.
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Yeah that's about right. In this way probably the best would be if we have a finite number of players that we can compare. Otherwise Murray won't even get points on second serve :)

BTW what do you have in mind in tactical ability(reading opponent)? If it is reading serve it should be in the return category, if it is anticipating the ball in footwork category.

Maybe change it to points construction?
 
Enigma_87 said:
Yeah that's about right. In this way probably the best would be if we have a finite number of players that we can compare. Otherwise Murray won't even get points on second serve :)

BTW what do you have in mind in tactical ability(reading opponent)? If it is reading serve it should be in the return category, if it is anticipating the ball in footwork category.

Maybe change it to points construction?
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For me tactical ability is a holistic concept taking into account mixing up your serve, knowing when to go for the return, focusing on a players weak point like Nadal does with Fed's backhand, just match management in general. I think we need to be careful of dividing tactical ability into all those components because we end up losing the measurement of their Tennis IQ and what constitutes tennis IQ. It should be left as a wide a meaning as possible to take everything into account.

In snooker for example, there is a concept where people say player A is a great 'match-player'.. it would get silly if people started dividing that into what makes them a good 'match-player'.. it incorporates things like good safety play under extreme pressure, heightened decision-making in break-building (making 70s/80s to clinch frames etc) but you wouldn't divide it all up.
 
Raees said:
For me tactical ability is a holistic concept taking into account mixing up your serve, knowing when to go for the return, focusing on a players weak point like Nadal does with Fed's backhand, just match management in general. I think we need to be careful of dividing tactical ability into all those components because we end up losing the measurement of their Tennis IQ and what constitutes tennis IQ. It should be left as a wide a meaning as possible to take everything into account.

In snooker for example, there is a concept where people say player A is a great 'match-player'.. it would get silly if people started dividing that into what makes them a good 'match-player'.. it incorporates things like good safety play under extreme pressure, heightened decision-making in break-building (making 70s/80s to clinch frames etc) but you wouldn't divide it all up.
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That's interesting. Maybe complicated to determine - as for example Federer had issues with Nadal, but swept aside the whole tour at his peak, while Nadal had trouble with big hitters early on etc. I understand where you are coming from tho.
 
BTW just how good was Federer's backhand on Sunday? He was ripping some tramendous winners off the backhand. And while the forehand was hit and miss, the inside out forehand won some absolutely huge points under big pressure.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
BTW just how good was Federer's backhand on Sunday? He was ripping some tramendous winners off the backhand. And while the forehand was hit and miss, the inside out forehand won some absolutely huge points under big pressure.
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IMO that was the difference that won the match for him. Especially compared to their last meetings. Ljubicic have done pretty well in that respect and probably that's his effect.
 
Enigma_87 said:
IMO that was the difference that won the match for him. Especially compared to their last meetings. Ljubicic have done pretty well in that respect and probably that's his effect.
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I was watching the highlights and he was belting away some viscous backhand shots. And a lot less slicing. Fed and Lubicic must have been working on this.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
I was watching the highlights and he was belting away some viscous backhand shots. And a lot less slicing. Fed and Lubicic must have been working on this.
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Hitting them earlier than usual seems to help. He used to wait just a little bit too late to get that extra bit of power on the shot but this time seems to just let it rip once he's in range. His anticipation and footwork though were top notch. I'm rewatching the match and it's actually astonishing how much less he moves on the points than Rafa. The latter couldn't compete physically as he used to by the last set, of course the Dimitrov game took a lot out of him but from the match itself the physical exertion weren't to his usual liking. He used to be able to force longer rallies out of Fed and just wear him down with his physicality.
 
Raees said:
Did the stuff about Jordan come out a lot during his peak or once he retired.
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During his peak. Pushing and bullying players both on his team and opponents was something that everyone knew that Jordan did back then. Saying that, I don't think that he was wrong in doing so. On NBA culture it is very common to do trash talk, and other stars have done so too (Larry Bird probably being the most famous). To Jordan credit, he also accepted getting trash talked. For example, an 18 years old Kobe said to him that he can defeat Jordan in 1 on 1, and after watching Kobe play, Jordan said something like 'you probably could do it'.

The other thing he was famous for was gambling, and there have been rumors that his first retirement was actually a punishment from the league for his gambling, but they didn't want to damage their brand by officially banning the biggest star.

His character isn't the best, but he is probably the biggest icon on sports (maybe second only to Ali, but Ali's greatness was also outside of sport).
 
Revan said:
During his peak. Pushing and bullying players both on his team and opponents was something that everyone knew that Jordan did back then. Saying that, I don't think that he was wrong in doing so. On NBA culture it is very common to do trash talk, and other stars have done so too (Larry Bird probably being the most famous). To Jordan credit, he also accepted getting trash talked. For example, an 18 years old Kobe said to him that he can defeat Jordan in 1 on 1, and after watching Kobe play, Jordan said something like 'you probably could do it'.

The other thing he was famous for was gambling, and there have been rumors that his first retirement was actually a punishment from the league for his gambling, but they didn't want to damage their brand by officially banning the biggest star.

His character isn't the best, but he is probably the biggest icon on sports (maybe second only to Ali, but Ali's greatness was also outside of sport).
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Thanks for that. Not much of a basketball fan but even I idolized Jordan, sort of talent which transcends sport.. genius and clutch as it gets. Shouldn't excuse his behavior but I feel that sort of notoriety only adds to the legend.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
BTW just how good was Federer's backhand on Sunday? He was ripping some tramendous winners off the backhand. And while the forehand was hit and miss, the inside out forehand won some absolutely huge points under big pressure.
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I could watch him hit back hand shots over and over. It's one of the great sights in sport :drool:
 
amolbhatia50k said:
I was watching the highlights and he was belting away some viscous backhand shots. And a lot less slicing. Fed and Lubicic must have been working on this.
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Had a feeling few dozen of them still finished in the net.

Is there some breakdown of stats for the match online? Now wondering what were most of his unforced errors.
 
His backhand's generally been more solid since the racquet switch (and the expense of his forehand sadly) but I feel like it was more of a weapon in this tournament than previous ones. Obviously been working on it during his break, wonder how much Ljubicic has helped... Rafa's forehand not being what it once was helped in the final of course.

NSFW:

 
Enigma_87 said:
IMO that was the difference that won the match for him. Especially compared to their last meetings. Ljubicic have done pretty well in that respect and probably that's his effect.
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One of the commentators on Eurosport said they were talking to Federer about his backhand and Federer himself put down his improvement to Edberg. I think Federer said that Edberg came in and said the first thing he had to work on was improving his backhand. IIRC, they said that Edberg focused on lengthening the top of the racket in the swing (I'm not too sure, I'm not a tennis expert). Anyway, it would make some sense if Edberg laid the foundation for Ljubicic to improve Federer's backhand.
 
Rawls said:
One of the commentators on Eurosport said they were talking to Federer about his backhand and Federer himself put down his improvement to Edberg. I think Federer said that Edberg came in and said the first thing he had to work on was improving his backhand. IIRC, they said that Edberg focused on lengthening the top of the racket in the swing (I'm not too sure, I'm not a tennis expert). Anyway, it would make some sense if Edberg laid the foundation for Ljubicic to improve Federer's backhand.
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Yeah you are spot on for that. Edberg was the main cause for Federer to improve both his serve and backhand, but IMO Ljubicic helped him changed the way the executed the backhand on court and especially in the final.

For example he advised Federer to put the racquet tip lower in the preparation phase in his backhand return in order to hit topspin returns easier and to avoid shanks.

Furthermore, what Federer always did in the past is slice the returns when receiving. That worked to a great effect against big hitters, but against Nadal was always ineffective as that would give Nadal the opportunity to hit heavy forehands to his bh and dictate the point. Federer was still using the same return in 2015 and in the beginning of 2016 - AO. In the final Nadal served 80% percent first serve exclusively on Federer's backhand from the ad side as always. This time however more of those bh returns were flat.

Federer also loves hitting short, sliced, cross court backhands in the middle of the court(Edberg effect) that would put the opponent in a rather awkward position - either come onto the net, or retreat after the shot. He didn't use that much time against Nadal. Those which he did were really deadly and you can see improvement there as well.

He also hit a lot deeper backhands with a lot of topspin when defending which gave him time to recover. It either can be Ljubicic effect or just the natural phase of his game - i.e. being older and needing those defensive shots to recover his position. He didn't do that in the past tho.

Federer hit a lot of DTL backhands this match. It was something Dimitrov also employed in the SF to a great effect. Not sure it was Ljubicic advising that strategy or just watching the SF, but it had immense effect neutralizing Nadal's main strength - exchanging heavy topspin forehands to Federer's backhand. Essentially this got him out of that exchange - he used to do it a lot(playing cross court exchange with the top players) - and shortened the points a lot, which is a key to defeat Nadal.

But the most important effect IMO was as Darren Cahill pointed out that Federer's backhands were so flat that you can see the logo on the balls not moving at all when going through the air. Federer very rarely hit backhands like this before. He usually hit them with top spin or sliced them cross court. It fit to a great extend with the new plexicushion courts due to their low bounce allows flat shots to bounce through quickly to the back of the court. When you hit it deep and flat it's always effective as the ball slows as soon as it hits the court. Some of Federer's backhands were taken very early (another thing which Davydenko's game style used to torment Nadal with) and the their speed was 80-90+ mph. You can see Nadal struggling with those deep, early backhands a lot causing him a lot of errors.

I'm not sure who gets the credit for that Edberg or Ljubicic as both game was based on the beautiful backhand, but there were some noticeable differences in Federer's approach to the game, compared to past matches.

I tend to think that Ljubicic had effect on Federer's game lately as serve and backhand was his bread and butter.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Yeah you are spot on for that. Edberg was the main cause for Federer to improve both his serve and backhand, but IMO Ljubicic helped him changed the way the executed the backhand on court and especially in the final.

For example he advised Federer to put the racquet tip lower in the preparation phase in his backhand return in order to hit topspin returns easier and to avoid shanks.

Furthermore, what Federer always did in the past is slice the returns when receiving. That worked to a great effect against big hitters, but against Nadal was always ineffective as that would give Nadal the opportunity to hit heavy forehands to his bh and dictate the point. Federer was still using the same return in 2015 and in the beginning of 2016 - AO. In the final Nadal served 80% percent first serve exclusively on Federer's backhand from the ad side as always. This time however more of those bh returns were flat.

Federer also loves hitting short, sliced, cross court backhands in the middle of the court(Edberg effect) that would put the opponent in a rather awkward position - either come onto the net, or retreat after the shot. He didn't use that much time against Nadal. Those which he did were really deadly and you can see improvement there as well.

He also hit a lot deeper backhands with a lot of topspin when defending which gave him time to recover. It either can be Ljubicic effect or just the natural phase of his game - i.e. being older and needing those defensive shots to recover his position. He didn't do that in the past tho.

Federer hit a lot of DTL backhands this match. It was something Dimitrov also employed in the SF to a great effect. Not sure it was Ljubicic advising that strategy or just watching the SF, but it had immense effect neutralizing Nadal's main strength - exchanging heavy topspin forehands to Federer's backhand. Essentially this got him out of that exchange - he used to do it a lot(playing cross court exchange with the top players) - and shortened the points a lot, which is a key to defeat Nadal.

But the most important effect IMO was as Darren Cahill pointed out that Federer's backhands were so flat that you can see the logo on the balls not moving at all when going through the air. Federer very rarely hit backhands like this before. He usually hit them with top spin or sliced them cross court. It fit to a great extend with the new plexicushion courts due to their low bounce allows flat shots to bounce through quickly to the back of the court. When you hit it deep and flat it's always effective as the ball slows as soon as it hits the court. Some of Federer's backhands were taken very early (another thing which Davydenko's game style used to torment Nadal with) and the their speed was 80-90+ mph. You can see Nadal struggling with those deep, early backhands a lot causing him a lot of errors.

I'm not sure who gets the credit for that Edberg or Ljubicic as both game was based on the beautiful backhand, but there were some noticeable differences in Federer's approach to the game, compared to past matches.

I tend to think that Ljubicic had effect on Federer's game lately as serve and backhand was his bread and butter.
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Very insightful post. Mats Willander was saying that Federer's backhand on Sunday was at times Wawrinka-esque although he didn't go into near as much detail as you just did there.
 
Rawls said:
Very insightful post. Mats Willander was saying that Federer's backhand on Sunday was at times Wawrinka-esque although he didn't go into near as much detail as you just did there.
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Cheers mate.
 
Whoops. Steve Darcis almost single handedly takes down germany and propels belgium to the Davis Cup QF. Beat Kohlschreiber in 5 and boy wonder A. Zverev in 4. Belgium was without Goffin as well.
 
'I'm in shock.', good grief, wasn't that bad. Won't do that again in the future.

Will he be banned, or the lost match is the only outcome?
 
Silly boy, got to feel a little sorry for him. We've all done it...just most are lucky to not hit anyone in the face!
 
Mrs Smoker said:
'I'm in shock.', good grief, wasn't that bad. Won't do that again in the future.

Will he be banned, or the lost match is the only outcome?
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According to the BBC "Referee Brian Earley has the power to impose a fine of up to $12,000 (£9,600) and the ITF might significantly increase that fine, and suspend Shapovalov from future ties"
 
It was just a freak incident really. Pros hit the ball away in frustration all the time, he was unlucky to hit the umpire.

Still, should serve as a cautionary tale for others from now on.
 
ChrisNelson said:
According to the BBC "Referee Brian Earley has the power to impose a fine of up to $12,000 (£9,600) and the ITF might significantly increase that fine, and suspend Shapovalov from future ties"
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Think that would be incredibly harsh if they did though. He's seemed genuinely remorseful and I think at 17 forfeiting the match is lesson enough.
 
To any argentinians or tennis fans that read news in spanish: How's Del Potro doing? Haven't heard an update since he cancelled the AO/Davis Cup. Is his wrist holding up?
 
Great Britain in Fed Cup action today vs. Portugal in the Euro/ Africa Zone Group 1 (Pool C). Heather Watson won comfortably earlier and Johanna Konta is cruising in her singles match. It's slightly different to Davis Cup in that the matches at this level are played at neutral venues. With a fully fit Watson and Konta in our team we should be having a good run in this event, maybe not quite strong enough (yet) to repeat the mens achievement of 2015 but who knows in the next few years?
 
Piratesoup said:
To any argentinians or tennis fans that read news in spanish: How's Del Potro doing? Haven't heard an update since he cancelled the AO/Davis Cup. Is his wrist holding up?
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As far as I can tell he's playing Delray Beach and Acapulco later this month, guess we'll get a better idea of where his game is then.
 
Giggsy92 said:
As far as I can tell he's playing Delray Beach and Acapulco later this month, guess we'll get a better idea of where his game is then.
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I hope he can find a way to make his backhand more versatile still after losing so much pace on it due to the wrist. It's a shame, he would've been an unstoppable force without the injuries.
 
Sascha wins his 2nd ATP 250 title. Beat Gasquet in straight sets in final. In semis he beat Tsonga.
 
Also, Dimitrov just won the tournament in Sofia. Beat Goffin in the final. That's 14-1 for the season now and two titles. Got to be the favorite in Rotterdam.
 
Nice to see Tsonga win his first title for a while in Rotterdam, albeit against a depleted field with no Stan or Rafa. Meanwhile Nishikori losing to Dolgopolov in BA means that the world numbers 4 and 5 now hold a grand total of zero titles between them.
 
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