Teacher beheaded near Paris after showing cartoons of Prophet Muhammad

[MadMike]

Always worth posting

No, it actually isn't always worth posting.

France is not the US, the perpetrators of these atrocities are not even Middle Eastern (one was Chechen and the other Tunisian) and the motivation was a bunch of satirical cartoons not reprisals for foreign wars.

There does exist a line where basically you're simultaneously oversimplifying, victim blaming and excusing it for some injustices done by others to others. You're well past that line.

 

[MadMike]

You could be the nicest guy on this planet but you ARE responsible for anything and everything that happens in the name of your shared belief system.

Drop the imaginary friends and all the problems that your religion — and every other religion — have created decrease significantly. Isn‘t that reason enough? Don‘t you think you could step away from your irrational belief if it could save your neighbour/colleague/friend from being beheaded by a lunatic following the same belief system? Why not? Because in reality you don‘t give a shit. You don‘t want to leave your comfort zone, you don‘t want to disappoint your family and friends of the same belief. You choose to be part of a big lie over evolving.

As long as you hold on to it, of course you‘re also responsible for what is caused by it.

You have it in your own hands yet refuse to accept responsibility and instead continue to deny being part of the problem.

The heck???

 

[calodo2003]

The heck???

He makes a lot of sense in his post. The point about choosing to be a part of a big lie over evolving is spot on.

 

[fishfingers15]

You could be the nicest guy on this planet but you ARE responsible for anything and everything that happens in the name of your shared belief system.

Drop the imaginary friends and all the problems that your religion — and every other religion — have created decrease significantly. Isn‘t that reason enough? Don‘t you think you could step away from your irrational belief if it could save your neighbour/colleague/friend from being beheaded by a lunatic following the same belief system? Why not? Because in reality you don‘t give a shit. You don‘t want to leave your comfort zone, you don‘t want to disappoint your family and friends of the same belief. You choose to be part of a big lie over evolving.

As long as you hold on to it, of course you‘re also responsible for what is caused by it.

You have it in your own hands yet refuse to accept responsibility and instead continue to deny being part of the problem.

This is not just muslims tbf. I lived in US for 15 years and I'm a Christian. I used to rage against anti abortion laws and what I thought was unnecessary poking into the educational texts by Christian majority here but I have done nothing against it apart from raging against online.

 

[utdalltheway]

Muslims are allowed their beliefs in western countries. They’re also allowed to get offended but they’re not going to be protected from being offended.
It’d be great if they figured that out quickly, for everyone’s sake.

 

[fishfingers15]

I would absolutely want to point out posters like zlatattack whonlive in a dichotomy. Want muslim rights protected in England through secular law but want laws governed by religion in Pakistan. Ffs

 

[amolbhatia50k]

You could be the nicest guy on this planet but you ARE responsible for anything and everything that happens in the name of your shared belief system.

Drop the imaginary friends and all the problems that your religion — and every other religion — have created decrease significantly. Isn‘t that reason enough? Don‘t you think you could step away from your irrational belief if it could save your neighbour/colleague/friend from being beheaded by a lunatic following the same belief system? Why not? Because in reality you don‘t give a shit. You don‘t want to leave your comfort zone, you don‘t want to disappoint your family and friends of the same belief. You choose to be part of a big lie over evolving.

As long as you hold on to it, of course you‘re also responsible for what is caused by it.

You have it in your own hands yet refuse to accept responsibility and instead continue to deny being part of the problem.

Complete nonsense.

Tomorrow is some Manchester United fans carry out murders, will you accept responsibility and stop supporting the club?

If certain groups in your country carry out vile acts, will you leave your country?

If the human race continues being destructive, will you forgo your humanness?

Maybe all the Brits here should have to pay for the Empires sins too.

 

[Dudu]

Some further details about the innocent Victims:

Vincent Loqués, 55
Loqués was a devout Catholic and had been sexton at the basilica where he prepared the sacraments and altar for the mass for 10 years. His role was also to welcome visitors and worshippers to the basilica when it opened at 8.30am. He had his throat cut and his body was found inside the church.

He reportedly had a wife and two children.


Simone Barreto Silva, 60
Brazilian media named another victim as mother of three Simone Barreto Silva. Silva, originally from Salvador on Brazil’s Atlantic coast, had lived in Paris for 30 years Silva was stabbed several times inside the basilica. She had gone to the Notre-Dame basilica early Thursday morning to pray when she was brutally attacked inside the church. Police sources said she had her throat deeply cut and the killer appeared “determined to decapitate her”. Severely injured, she managed to flee the building before collapsing in a nearby bar.

A mother of three children, she told those who were treating her: “Tell my children I love them” before dying at the scene.


Third victim, Woman, 44 (still not been named)
Another woman, aged 44, managed to flee to a nearby cafe after being stabbed several times. France's chief anti-terrorism prosecutor said she died of multiple knife wounds in a neighbouring restaurant shortly after fleeing the church through a side door.


Rest In Peace.

 

[calodo2003]

Complete nonsense.

Tomorrow is some Manchester United fans carry out murders, will you accept responsibility and stop supporting the club?

If certain groups in your country carry out vile acts, will you leave your country?

If the human race continues being destructive, will you forgo your humanness?

Maybe all the Brits here should have to pay for the Empires sins too.

None of those entities to which you referred are actively issuing fatwas to murder non-believers who create satire to try to say something, none of those entities are brainwashing the more susceptible adherents to their policies to carry out acts of violence in their names. Some of those points you brought up aren’t even choices by people (who chooses to be human or who chooses where they are born?).

It’s somewhat unfathomable that the religion of islam apparently isn’t at fault here. Is the fundamentalist issue just so far gone that there’s nothing that islam itself can do? Many in hereal are saying that only a minute portion of muslims in the world are truly this evil; well, to many of us, that’s a good thing as those people can be more easily drummed out of islam & such virulent aspects of the religion could more easily be purged from the religion itself. Is there no internal force of will within the religion to make these changes, is there no political will to try to divorce such horrors from ever being associated with islam ever again?

Or is it easier to circle the wagons, lament when outside criticism is focused on islam due to barbaric acts perpetrated in its name, ride out the storm, & take the easy way out? Many in here have spoken about the decentralization if the religion & the fact that it doesn’t have the hierarchal structure like other major religions, perhaps it’s time to develop one to help curb radicalization? I don’t know, but it just seems like a lot of the answers given are simply the path of least resistance.

 

[fishfingers15]

None of those entities to which you referred are actively issuing fatwas to murder non-believers who create satire to try to say something, none of those entities are brainwashing the more susceptible adherents to their policies to carry out acts of violence in their names. Some of those points you brought up aren’t even choices by people (who chooses to be human or who chooses where they are born?).

It’s somewhat unfathomable that the religion of islam apparently isn’t at fault here. Is the fundamentalist issue just so far gone that there’s nothing that islam itself can do? Many in hereal are saying that only a minute portion of muslims in the world are truly this evil; well, to many of us, that’s a good thing as those people can be more easily drummed out of islam & such virulent aspects of the religion could more easily be purged from the religion itself. Is there no internal force of will within the religion to make these changes, is there no political will to try to divorce such horrors from ever being associated with islam ever again?

Or is it easier to circle the wagons, lament when outside criticism is focused on islam due to barbaric acts perpetrated in its name, ride out the storm, & take the easy way out? Many in here have spoken about the decentralization if the religion & the fact that it doesn’t have the hierarchal structure like other major religions, perhaps it’s time to develop one to help curb radicalization? I don’t know, but it just seems like a lot of the answers given are simply the path of least resistance.

Evangelical Christians are perhaps the biggest reason we have Trump and his cronies, perhaps resulting in the death of many more than the murders on Paris.

 

[UweBein]

....That someone commits violence cannot be projected on to the Muslims because of this. This is not like the Khomeini fatwa on Rushdee. No one issued any fatwa or anything of that sort on the poor teacher. He was murdered because a person thought he should murder him.

Now, if that were the case, I would say you are right.
But, he seems to have been instigated by other Muslims to do it. His deed has also received significant appraisal from some Muslims (in France and world wide).

 

[amolbhatia50k]

None of those entities to which you referred are actively issuing fatwas to murder non-believers who create satire to try to say something, none of those entities are brainwashing the more susceptible adherents to their policies to carry out acts of violence in their names. Some of those points you brought up aren’t even choices by people (who chooses to be human or who chooses where they are born?).

It’s somewhat unfathomable that the religion of islam apparently isn’t at fault here. Is the fundamentalist issue just so far gone that there’s nothing that islam itself can do? Many in hereal are saying that only a minute portion of muslims in the world are truly this evil; well, to many of us, that’s a good thing as those people can be more easily drummed out of islam & such virulent aspects of the religion could more easily be purged from the religion itself. Is there no internal force of will within the religion to make these changes, is there no political will to try to divorce such horrors from ever being associated with islam ever again?

Or is it easier to circle the wagons, lament when outside criticism is focused on islam due to barbaric acts perpetrated in its name, ride out the storm, & take the easy way out? Many in here have spoken about the decentralization if the religion & the fact that it doesn’t have the hierarchal structure like other major religions, perhaps it’s time to develop one to help curb radicalization? I don’t know, but it just seems like a lot of the answers given are simply the path of least resistance.

You choose where you live. And the US and UK (especially) have plenty of blood on their hands over the decades

Islam isn't an individual. Blame Islamic leaders if you wish, but demonizing a random Muslim IT guy is rather pathetic behavior.

 

[calodo2003]

Evangelical Christians are perhaps the biggest reason we have Trump and his cronies, perhaps resulting in the death of many more than the murders on Paris.

I abhor them with the same passion as I abhor islamic extremists. The uneducated batshit thumpers are largely to blame for Plump’s four years in office & we will unfortunately feel the deleterious effects on this country for decades to come.

You can take that one step further & make the claim that the same batshit thumpers helped install W into office in 2000. Imagine how much different the world would be if that idiot wasn’t president? It boggles the mind to think of how much better off the world could be now without a Republican in the White House in twelve of the past twenty years.

Now we are unfortunately seeing the virulent delusional strains of christianity coming to the forefront in America; it would surprise me to see armed uprisings occur when Biden is elected / takes office. Trump had greased the skids for that particular flavor of delusion to come to the forefront in 2017 with the Charlottesville insanity & it has morphed into multiple political assassination plots on high profile Democrats. This flawed version of christianity is tapping into the mental deficiencies of those who are adherents & we haven’t seen the last of their plans.

 

[Abizzz]

You choose where you live. And the US and UK (especially) have plenty of blood on their hands over the decades

Islam isn't an individual. Blame Islamic leaders if you wish, but demonizing a random Muslim IT guy is rather pathetic behavior.

So Islam isn't an individual but the US and UK are

 

[calodo2003]

You choose where you live. And the US and UK (especially) have plenty of blood on their hands over the decades

Islam isn't an individual. Blame Islamic leaders if you wish, but demonizing a random Muslim IT guy is rather pathetic behavior.

Not sure to what you are referring here? Was the muslim who issued the fatwa simply a random IT guy? By many accounts I have read, he was also a preacher.

 

[KirkDuyt]

You mean like evangelical christians? They already have the keys to them...

I was thinking more along the lines of the suicide bomber types. Evangelicals, while nutjobs in their own right, don't want to die. I think the idea that dying in name of your God and killing as many non believers as possible is a rather alarm kind of extremism which nullifies the concern one can have over the effects of dropping a nuke somewhere.

 

[UweBein]

This is a convenient excuse that I’ve heard multiple times in the past. How about those adherents to the religion, like yourself, getting up in arms & demanding change? It’s far easier to somewhat circle the wagons in faux outrage claiming that there is rampant phobia against a certain religion from others; it’s another to actually feel ashamed that crimes are being committed in the name of said religion yet basically admit that nothing can be done. Smacks of a cop out. Religions are by their very nature divisive & it’s telling that you would feel so put upon when the root cause of these current atrocities is islam itself, there’s really no way around that fact. Don’t get twisted here, I am equally as contemptuous of all religion, this is not a slam solely on islam.

So, basically, you appear to be fine with any fatwa issued by islam towards any non-believer regardless the outcome? That it should be the country in which the atrocity is committed that should be policing itself & islam should not be held for any responsibility of the act? Just throw up your hands & claim that there is nothing you or your religion could do about it? With this attitude, you can’t see that there could be...

Come on... you are angry and biased as...
There are no broad issues with Islam in Europe. However, there are certain pockets within European Islam that are problematic. But we are not talking about widespread issues here... otherwise we would have a beheading every month.

 

[Wolverine]

You could be the nicest guy on this planet but you ARE responsible for anything and everything that happens in the name of your shared belief system.

Drop the imaginary friends and all the problems that your religion — and every other religion — have created decrease significantly. Isn‘t that reason enough? Don‘t you think you could step away from your irrational belief if it could save your neighbour/colleague/friend from being beheaded by a lunatic following the same belief system? Why not? Because in reality you don‘t give a shit. You don‘t want to leave your comfort zone, you don‘t want to disappoint your family and friends of the same belief. You choose to be part of a big lie over evolving.

As long as you hold on to it, of course you‘re also responsible for what is caused by it.

You have it in your own hands yet refuse to accept responsibility and instead continue to deny being part of the problem.

I told my parents i was an atheist in my mid teens.
Nice little exposition about my life though, person on internet

 

[calodo2003]

Come on... you are angry and biased as...
There are no broad issues with Islam in Europe. However, there are certain pockets within European Islam that are problematic. But we are not talking about widespread issues here... otherwise we would have a beheading every month.

I view all religious extremism through the same prism.

Here’s a list of apparent attacks in Europe since 9/11:

https://thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/europe-attacks.aspx

At what point does religious extremism of any flavor become too much for those within that flavor of religion?

 

[stevoc]

I would take Ergodan anyday over this lunatic pakistani imam who is urging Pakistan to nuke france over this.




Imagine if the death of all life on earth was provoked by an offensive cartoon

As stupid as that would be i think it would be a fitting end for a species like the Human race that are already murdering people over something as silly and trivial as a cartoon.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

So Islam isn't an individual but the US and UK are

Neither is?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Not sure to what you are referring here? Was the muslim who issued the fatwa simply a random IT guy? By many accounts I have read, he was also a preacher.

The guy on redcafe you're vilifying may well be.

 

[calodo2003]

The guy on redcafe you're vilifying may well be.

Wow. ‘Vilifying?’ ‘Demonizing?’ I don’t think I was being disparaging to you at all. I was pointing out the facts as we know them regarding the fatwa being issued & how some don’t have choices in their lives vs. a religion one is, that being a specific choice that one makes.

Apologies if you took my statements as being directed specifically at you, I’m simply stating my incredulity at your statement.

But, like some in here have stated, there are no true islamic leaders akin to the hierarchical structures in other worldwide religion. To whom should I focus as a islamic leader of international renown to affect the changes needed to purge extremism out of the religion?

 

[JPRouve]

Gotcha.. still confused why Erdogan waded in and why is no one going after him for fueling this fire

That part has nothing to do with religion France and Turkey are in open conflict due to events in Syria/Libya and the fact that France sided with Greece in the current tensions between Turkey and Greece.

 

[Sad Chris]

Complete nonsense.

Tomorrow is some Manchester United fans carry out murders, will you accept responsibility and stop supporting the club?

If certain groups in your country carry out vile acts, will you leave your country?

If the human race continues being destructive, will you forgo your humanness?

Maybe all the Brits here should have to pay for the Empires sins too.

Ridiculous comparisons that aren‘t worthy of a detailed reply.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Ridiculous comparisons that aren‘t worthy of a detailed reply.

Then don't given nobody expects it to be a good one.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Wow. ‘Vilifying?’ ‘Demonizing?’ I don’t think I was being disparaging to you at all. I was pointing out the facts as we know them regarding the fatwa being issued & how some don’t have choices in their lives vs. a religion one is, that being a specific choice that one makes.

Apologies if you took my statements as being directed specifically at you, I’m simply stating my incredulity at your statement.

But, like some in here have stated, there are no true islamic leaders akin to the hierarchical structures in other worldwide religion. To whom should I focus as a islamic leader of international renown to affect the changes needed to purge extremism out of the religion?

I don't know but definitely not @Wolverine from redcafe who I was referring to. Not myself.

 

[Sad Chris]

I told my parents i was an atheist in my mid teens.
Nice little exposition about my life though, person on internet

I can only work with what you share with us:

Its not my responsibility as a Muslim to stop a murder or prevent somebody else becoming radicalised despite how many times you keep saying it is it will not become less ridiculous.

Take it personal or don‘t, I‘m addressing any and every religious person. You ARE responsible. For all the shit that happens because of your story. Too many times have I heard excuses and pseudo-reasoning for crimes committed in the name of whoever or whatever you/they claim to be omnipotent. Fiction remains fiction no matter how much you sugarcoat or modify it.

 

[Gehrman]

We are only really primarily reponsible for our actions alone. You can't pin a terrorist attack on someone who had no influence on it whatsoever. I agree though that if you're part of a religious community, you have a reponsibility in how you excert that reponsilbilty.

 

[ThatsGreat]

Another bunch of people beheaded, and the same rigmarole of apologists making excuses for them. I don't have any issues with the extremists, they're nutters, but the "moderates" making excuses for them is what really riles me.

 

[ThatsGreat]

Complete nonsense.

Tomorrow is some Manchester United fans carry out murders, will you accept responsibility and stop supporting the club?

If certain groups in your country carry out vile acts, will you leave your country?

If the human race continues being destructive, will you forgo your humanness?

Maybe all the Brits here should have to pay for the Empires sins too.

Its not about what has already happened, its to prevent what will happen in the future. If you stop supporting Manchester United and it prevents some innocent soul from being beheaded then you should absolutely stop supporting Manchester united. Especially if you're always quoting something about manchester united fans valuing life overy everything and being the most peacefullest group of fans in the world.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Its not about what has already happened, its to prevent what will happen in the future. If you stop supporting Manchester United and it prevents some innocent soul from being beheaded then you should absolutely stop supporting Manchester united. Especially if you're always quoting something about manchester united fans valuing life overy everything and being the most peacefullest group of fans in the world.

His stopping practicing his faith will do feck all for stopping acts of violence. Just like a Brit leaving his country wouldn't have stopped all the atrocities committed on colonies.

I'd like to also know whether concerned non vegatarians will stop eating their favourite dishes for stopping future butchering of innocence animals.

 

[Gehrman]

Its not about what has already happened, its to prevent what will happen in the future. If you stop supporting Manchester United and it prevents some innocent soul from being beheaded then you should absolutely stop supporting Manchester united. Especially if you're always quoting something about manchester united fans valuing life overy everything and being the most peacefullest group of fans in the world.

Could people stop making analogies to football. Football is about kicking a ball. Religion is amongst other things, a belief system on how you should live your life.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

To be honest I'm just picking holes in silly arguments. At the end of the day you want someone to give us arguably the most important thing in his life, something that defines how he lives, and many would live with honesty and integrity, because someone else hijacked with their own shitty take on it. And blame him as an enabler for not doing so.

 

[Sweet Square]

No, it actually isn't always worth posting.

France is not the US, the perpetrators of these atrocities are not even Middle Eastern (one was Chechen and the other Tunisian) and the motivation was a bunch of satirical cartoons not reprisals for foreign wars.

There does exist a line where basically you're simultaneously oversimplifying, victim blaming and excusing it for some injustices done by others to others. You're well past that line.

Once again you're really living up to that user name. Have another go at the video, it might take a few watches to sink in.

 

[fishfingers15]

That part has nothing to do with religion France and Turkey are in open conflict due to events in Syria/Libya and the fact that France sided with Greece in the current tensions between Turkey and Greece.

I see.. I'm still surprised that what was an internal French law and authority issue is now dressed up as a global struggle against oppression of Muslims in France by a foreign leader directly at odds with France and that is being trotted out as the truth by many.

 

[fergieisold]

Always worth posting

No doubt our military activity hasn't helped but this stinks of don't blame islam, it's everybody else fault. Islamic countries need to take ownership of this problem and solve it, all they seem to have done so far is stoked up more violence over some meaningless cartoons.

 

[Simbo]

Complete nonsense.

Tomorrow is some Manchester United fans carry out murders, will you accept responsibility and stop supporting the club?

If certain groups in your country carry out vile acts, will you leave your country?

If the human race continues being destructive, will you forgo your humanness?

Maybe all the Brits here should have to pay for the Empires sins too.

If there was a constant ongoing issue of extremeist united fans murdering random innocent people because they were upset by an offenseive meme some random Liverpool fan posted on the internet and the club shrugged its shoulders and blamed the meme poster... I'm pretty sure I would cut all ties I had to the club and actively seek its demise.

 

[ThatsGreat]

His stopping practicing his faith will do feck all for stopping acts of violence. Just like a Brit leaving his country wouldn't have stopped all the atrocities committed on colonies.

I'd like to also know whether concerned non vegatarians will stop eating their favourite dishes for stopping future butchering of innocence animals.

Thats up for debate. If today 1million muslims upped and left, that could be a massive catalyst for change especially when its one of the cult religions that like to glorify their numbers. But sadly, we're never going to find that will we. We're just going to get a bunch of excuses and victim blaming.
But anyway, lets have this discussion when the next terrorist attack happens. The numbers killed are not even that high in this one, 3 dead, its just that beheading is what everyone is finding gruesome.

 

[fergieisold]

Another bunch of people beheaded, and the same rigmarole of apologists making excuses for them. I don't have any issues with the extremists, they're nutters, but the "moderates" making excuses for them is what really riles me.

It's something that has to change. After the attacks we've seen all sorts of excuses. Islamophobia, bullying of muslims, it's the wests fault, other religions can be violent too. This is what dominates the moderate response rather than condemnation of the attacks and acknowledgment that there are problems with islamic extremism.