[RedTillI'mDead]

People are just desperate imo. The rational behind throwing Chong in this game all lies in "he's not going to be any worse than the rest" rather than having a reasonable opinion of throwing an 18 years old kid against Juve while losing 1-0.

My rationale...

Bring on Herrera for Matic, Chong for Lukaku. Move Martial central, Rashford left, Chong right.

That's an injection of energy and a mix up in attack last 10 minutes would have been enough as the game started to go flat.

The advantages... Lukaku taken off for a kid is a kick in the arse and he needs it. It would be a great confidence boost for Chong, but also it might show him his weaknesses, e.g. if he did get bossed off the ball he will know the importance of gym work. Sometimes you need to fail to know what you need to do to succeed.

On the flip side he might have had or delivered a Macheda type moment. On the wing he would be lower risk and his pace and skills might have created openings.

Also it's a general kick in the arse to all the players to show Mourinho isn't afraid to throw youngsters in the mix if these lot can't give him what is required.

As an additional plus the crowd with have got excited for Chong. It might have helped.

 

[SteveW]

Its not about blooding youth.

Its about recognising whats happening on the pitch isn't working and we needed to try something new.

By weakening the team?

Isn't football supposed to provide a "bit of fun and excitement"?

I'm not fussed about Jose not making any changes - but given how Lukaku was playing, it would not have been such a bad thing to replace him with Chong and get Rashford up top.

If Chong did something good, it would have been a lift for the entire team/ fan base. If not, it wouldn't have made any difference anyway.

Hindsight allows you to say that. Clearly Jose didn't feel that way. He hadn't given up on the game.

 

[snk123]

My rationale...

Bring on Herrera for Matic, Chong for Lukaku. Move Martial central, Rashford left, Chong right.

That's an injection of energy and a mix up in attack last 10 minutes would have been enough as the game started to go flat.

The advantages... Lukaku taken off for a kid is a kick in the arse and he needs it. It would be a great confidence boost for Chong, but also it might show him his weaknesses, e.g. if he did get bossed off the ball he will know the importance of gym work. Sometimes you need to fail to know what you need to do to succeed.

On the flip side he might have had or delivered a Macheda type moment. On the wing he would be lower risk and his pace and skills might have created openings.

Also it's a general kick in the arse to all the players to show Mourinho isn't afraid to throw youngsters in the mix if these lot can't give him what is required.

As an additional plus the crowd with have got excited for Chong. It might have helped.

This.
The problem is not bringing Chong on or not. The problem is the giving up and not even trying to change things.

Didn't Mourinho remind us all that there is no difference in going out early or late in the Champions league? So why the feck did we not try anything? There was no difference in losing 1-0 or 2-0 in a group game against Juve

 

[el3mel]

My rationale...

Bring on Herrera for Matic, Chong for Lukaku. Move Martial central, Rashford left, Chong right.

That's an injection of energy and a mix up in attack last 10 minutes would have been enough as the game started to go flat.

The advantages... Lukaku taken off for a kid is a kick in the arse and he needs it. It would be a great confidence boost for Chong, but also it might show him his weaknesses, e.g. if he did get bossed off the ball he will know the importance of gym work. Sometimes you need to fail to know what you need to do to succeed.

On the flip side he might have had or delivered a Macheda type moment. On the wing he would be lower risk and his pace and skills might have created openings.

Also it's a general kick in the arse to all the players to show Mourinho isn't afraid to throw youngsters in the mix if these lot can't give him what is required.

As an additional plus the crowd with have got excited for Chong. It might have helped.

Look, I don't undeestand why people are bringing Macheda, Januzai, Rashford etc in this comparison when they all make their debut against teams far weaker than Juve. There's no problem in giving them their debut but you need to choose the right opponent.

I would have brought Fred for Matic to inject more tempo in the team, and put Periera for Mata by the end of the game. The stupid things Mourinho was starting with all your forwards then not making subs at all, but in case of Chong specifically, I do think it was the right decision to not throw him in such game against such opponent.

 

[el3mel]

God, just let the moaners moan. Why even bother trying to come up with an explanation for the outpouring of drivel?

He brings him on, he looks like todge and then people yell "WHY DID HE BRING HIM ON, HIS CONFIDENCE WILL BE GONE NOW". Best just leave it be and let people embarrass themselves in peace.

I bet you some would have said he threw a youngster under the bus while we are losing by throwing him in.

 

[ivaldo]

My rationale...

Bring on Herrera for Matic, Chong for Lukaku. Move Martial central, Rashford left, Chong right.

That's an injection of energy and a mix up in attack last 10 minutes would have been enough as the game started to go flat.

The advantages... Lukaku taken off for a kid is a kick in the arse and he needs it. It would be a great confidence boost for Chong, but also it might show him his weaknesses, e.g. if he did get bossed off the ball he will know the importance of gym work. Sometimes you need to fail to know what you need to do to succeed.

On the flip side he might have had or delivered a Macheda type moment. On the wing he would be lower risk and his pace and skills might have created openings.

Also it's a general kick in the arse to all the players to show Mourinho isn't afraid to throw youngsters in the mix if these lot can't give him what is required.

As an additional plus the crowd with have got excited for Chong. It might have helped.

You're viewing all this with hindsight. At the point of consideration, we did not know we werent going to score. We were in the ascendency, even if we weren't creating a huge amount. So we have to consider who is more likely to score/create. Chong or Lukaku/Rashford/Martial.

It's a needless risk born out of desperation. You don't simply throw an 18 year old with no top level experience on against probably the best team in the world right now, in a competition as important as the champions league, and hope he's going to perform better than established international goal scorers. He's far more likely to make a mistake than he is to provide a positive.

 

[lawliet354]

Look, I don't undeestand why people are bringing Macheda, Januzai, Rashford etc in this comparison when they all make their debut against teams far weaker than Juve. There's no problem in giving them their debut but you need to choose the right opponent.

Macheda played in probably the most important games in the season and Rashford played in KO stage of Europa League and against Arsenal and City, that for me is higher hurdle than against Juve in Group stage of CL.

 

[RedTillI'mDead]

You're viewing all this with hindsight. At the point of consideration, we did not know we werent going to score. We were in the ascendency, even if we weren't creating a huge amount. So we have to consider who is more likely to score/create. Chong or Lukaku/Rashford/Martial.

It's a needless risk born out of desperation. You don't simply throw an 18 year old with no top level experience on against probably the best team in the world right now, in a competition as important as the champions league, and hope he's going to perform better than established international goal scorers. He's far more likely to make a mistake than he is to provide a positive.

I'll agree to disagree. Lukaku has not scored for eight matches...

There is no hindsight to it. During the game I'm sure you'll find me making the same comments. Last 10/15 minutes it started to go flat. There was no ascendency at that point. It was obvious an injection of energy would have helped and we had limited options.

 

[Rajma]

He won't play with Jose here - He didn't even have him on the bench against Derby.

Exactly, the only reason he was on the bench against Juve is because he was trying to prove a point (again) to the board. Same reason he plays McTominay CB against WHU, just such an unpleasant man.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

You're viewing all this with hindsight. At the point of consideration, we did not know we werent going to score. We were in the ascendency, even if we weren't creating a huge amount. So we have to consider who is more likely to score/create. Chong or Lukaku/Rashford/Martial.

It's a needless risk born out of desperation. You don't simply throw an 18 year old with no top level experience on against probably the best team in the world right now, in a competition as important as the champions league, and hope he's going to perform better than established international goal scorers. He's far more likely to make a mistake than he is to provide a positive.

Spot on

 

[Ashley R1+O]

I bet you some would have said he threw a youngster under the bus while we are losing by throwing him in.

Guarantee it. Especially phrased this way the old 'THREW EM UNDER A BUS' has been a tired and overused phrase on this forum for a while now.

 

[Rajma]

A Coward One. You have to feel for Chong, the lad just wants to enjoy football instead is being used by Jose in his political moves.

 

[Rajma]

Any mistake hypothetically he could have made would have had a less profound impact on his confidence and psychological state than how Jose went about the subs on Tuesday as it was basically saying you're not good enough no matter how fecked the situation is.

 

[VP89]

A Coward One. You have to feel for Chong, the lad just wants to enjoy football instead is being used by Jose in his political moves.

 

[Rajma]

Glad you agree.

 

[VP89]

Glad you agree.

 

[el3mel]

Macheda played in probably the most important games in the season and Rashford played in KO stage of Europa League and against Arsenal and City, that for me is higher hurdle than against Juve in Group stage of CL.

Both were against Villa and a team from Denmark. This is Juve. The level of opposition is far higher.

 

[Rajma]

Both were against Villa and a team from Denmark. This is Juve. The level of opposition is far higher.

Rashford has his debut against Arsenal in a very important game to us.

 

[ivaldo]

I'll agree to disagree. Lukaku has not scored for eight matches...

There is no hindsight to it. During the game I'm sure you'll find me making the same comments. Last 10/15 minutes it started to go flat. There was no ascendency at that point. It was obvious an injection of energy would have helped and we had limited options.

Which begs the question, if Lukaku, one of the most prolific scorers in the premier league over the last 5 years, can't make an impact, why would a still developing youngster, who has no first team experience be able to? Chong isn't going to contribute more than those 3 strikers already on the pitch.

 

[el3mel]

Rashford has his debut against Arsenal in a very important game to us.

No it was against the team from Denmark in Europe league when we won 5-1 first.

 

[ivaldo]

A Coward One. You have to feel for Chong, the lad just wants to enjoy football instead is being used by Jose in his political moves.

feck sake. Mess.

 

[Smores]

A Coward One. You have to feel for Chong, the lad just wants to enjoy football instead is being used by Jose in his political moves.

Chong would have been fecking chuffed to be on the bench at all. Political moves

 

[roonster09]

No it was against the team from Denmark in Europe league when we won 5-1 first.

Only debuts count and not the second game? Or any game for a youngster when they are still developing?

 

[lawliet354]

Both were against Villa and a team from Denmark. This is Juve. The level of opposition is far higher.

I definitely agree that Juve is much better team, but you have to take into account the stakes too, both Rashford and Macheda played in more important matches, albeit against worse opponent.

Fergie trust Macheda against Villa in probably our most important game in the league when we were down 2-1 with team of Nani, Ronaldo, Giggs, Teves and he still have Park on the bench.

If Mourinho were in charge back then, I'm 100% sure he wouldn't have brought him on and then complain how he didn't have any attacking options on the bench

 

[Zoo]

Just the experience of being part of the match day squad on a big CL night would have been great for Chong, obviously the hope now is that Mourinho gradually starts bedding him in.

 

[Rajma]

Chong would have been fecking chuffed to be on the bench at all. Political moves

Best view and all that. I really kicked the hornets' nest with those replies.

 

[el3mel]

I definitely agree that Juve is much better team, but you have to take into account the stakes too, both Rashford and Macheda played in more important matches, albeit against worse opponent.

Fergie trust Macheda against Villa in probably our most important game in the league when we were down 2-1 with team of Nani, Ronaldo, Giggs, Teves and he still have Park on the bench.

If Mourinho were in charge back then, I'm 100% sure he wouldn't have brought him on and then complain how he didn't have any attacking options on the bench

I don't disagree that Villa match was far more important and it was a courageous decision from Fergie, but still I'll bet on a youngster making an impact against Villa than against Juve, no ? It's about choosing the right opposition imo.

 

[Smores]

Best view and all that. I really kicked the hornets' nest with those replies.

Well the lad doesn't even look ready to be fair, it would be a mistake to throw him in the deep end.

First comes match day experience to get used to the environment and then sub appearances in easier games.

 

[RedTillI'mDead]

Which begs the question, if Lukaku, one of the most prolific scorers in the premier league over the last 5 years, can't make an impact, why would a still developing youngster, who has no first team experience be able to? Chong isn't going to contribute more than those 3 strikers already on the pitch.

Maybe because Lukaku is burned out from the world cup, in need of a rest mentally/ physically.

Lukaku was contributing nothing for several games, so yes Chong might just provide something more. For a start he'd be more dynamic than Lukaku on the wing and Martial who is showing more form would arguably do better up front than Lukaku

 

[Rajma]

Well the lad doesn't even look ready to be fair, it would be a mistake to throw him in the deep end.

First comes match day experience to get used to the environment and then sub appearances in easier games.

I just don't see it that way considering the Lukaku performance on the day. There was literally nothing to lose and everything to gain by throwing him in.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I hope he starts him vs Everton

 

[In Rainbows]

Well the lad doesn't even look ready to be fair, it would be a mistake to throw him in the deep end.

First comes match day experience to get used to the environment and then sub appearances in easier games.

I think sometimes letting kids experience playing against men and failing, helps them. They sometimes need a reality check on what they need to improve on. For example, if Chong truly experiences how inferior he is physically against these older players, he could start to put in more effort building up his body.

 

[AltiUn]

I hope he starts him vs Everton

We'll just start the same front 3 as we did against Juventus injuries permitting.

 

[Rozay]

Bringing Chong on was not the right move. It seems some want the manager to prioritise some fans excitement as they get to see a new young player over trying to beat navigate a tough CL fixture.

How are people saying we had ‘nothing to lose?’. If we were 3 down then that might be true. But at 1 down, the game was still very much in the balance. And because the forwards on the pitch hadn’t scored by 80 minutes doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have scored by 90. Get a grip. We had some control on the game and needed just one goal, and the most likely to get it were out there.

 

[Class of 63]

Did he even warm-up to come on ?

If he didn't there's a good chance he was so wrecked with nerves(as many before him have been) and he'd said to Jose, or his staff, "please don't put me on as my ring-piece cannae take the strain"

There is no other explanation for not throwing him on even if it was just for a few minutes if he was up for it.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

3 pages discussing the same thing.
I get that many fans are excited to see Chong play.

At that time our subs are: Chong, Pereira, Fred, Herrera, Darmian, Bailly and Romero.

I would rather gamble on those trio (Pereira, Fred and Herrera) first. We're fecking losing the game, it's against Juve, and nothing is really happening. Twist tweak the formation and system if required, and both Fred/Pereira can play as wingers and CAM.
Thing is - Mou did nothing, no subs in, wonder what message he's sending to the bench and those 3 at that time ~ probably "you're all useless" and "even if I subs you in, you guys won't do better than the guys playing." Sending Chong against Juve is not a good risk imo, since we still have 3 senior good attacking options. Different game against lower level team - for sure, depends on the situations.

Anyway, it's a good exp for Chong to reach this far, as one of the subs against Juve, CL game, Old Trafford.
Doesn't matter if he's being used as political tool to prove a point or not.
What's in the head of this kid is what matters - doubt he really expected himself to get chosen to play, being on the bench for now in this kind of game I bet is already an exciting nervy experience. Next time to play, now experience it up close.

 

[sunama]

This.
The problem is not bringing Chong on or not. The problem is the giving up and not even trying to change things.

Didn't Mourinho remind us all that there is no difference in going out early or late in the Champions league? So why the feck did we not try anything? There was no difference in losing 1-0 or 2-0 in a group game against Juve

Perhaps Jose is worried about finishing on equal points with Valencia and GD becoming important?

 

[T00lsh3d]

Is he good enough to be playing PL yet? Genuine question as I don’t get to see much reserve/youth stuff

 

[sunama]

I think sometimes letting kids experience playing against men and failing, helps them. They sometimes need a reality check on what they need to improve on. For example, if Chong truly experiences how inferior he is physically against these older players, he could start to put in more effort building up his body.

Dude, enough with the bulking up.
Bulking up has led to our players playing absolutely terrible. Rooney got fat and heavy. Memphis got too heavy. And right now Lukaku is the heaviest of all. We need to stop suggesting that players should bulk up - as it usually leads to a decline and then being sold to a mid-table club. In 2018, players should be quick and nimble. Chong is thin, but as he grows, he will naturally get stronger - no need to force the bulking process.

Is he good enough to be playing PL yet? Genuine question as I don’t get to see much reserve/youth stuff

I saw him play pre-season and unfortunately, he played like a youth player. It was Men vs Chong.
He may have the skills, but he needs to mature, physically - naturally, without going on some crazy bulk.

 

[RedSky]

How are people saying we had ‘nothing to lose?’. If we were 3 down then that might be true. But at 1 down, the game was still very much in the balance. And because the forwards on the pitch hadn’t scored by 80 minutes doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have scored by 90. Get a grip. We had some control on the game and needed just one goal, and the most likely to get it were out there.

Not sure I agree with you Rozay. If you look at our shots there's a huge gap between half time and the Pogba shot at 74mins. Lukaku only had 1 shot at 82mins, Rashford had 0 shots, Mata had 0 shots, Martial had 2 shots one being in the last few mins of the game.

Our Shots:
16mins - Pogba (Set Piece - On Target)
46mins - Martial (Open Play - Shot Blocked)
46mins - Pogba (Open Play - Shot Blocked)
74mins - Pogba (Open Play - Shot off Woodwork)
82mins - Lukaku (Open Play - Shot Blocked)
89mins - Martial (Open Play - On Target)

You can break it down further if you like and look at our supply. We had 4 Key Passes, only one came from the right side from Young and that was in the 15th minute. The other 3 came from the left. Personally, throwing Chong on for the final 10minutes for Rashford would have been fine. Rashford created very little and wasn't a goal threat all game. Naturally hindsight is a wonderful thing in football but watching the game we all were pleading for a change as it was clear as day we were struggling. Whether Chong would make any difference is anyones guess, we'll never know. But giving him a go at home when you're 1-0 down and chasing the game is surely a decent time to try him no? What else did we have to lose? Nobody would have expected Chong to make anything happen so there would be no pressure on the lad.

Either way its a moot point given he didn't come on. Just a bit disappointing.