Sverre Nypan | Norwegian media: Will do a PL tour in December

[Rozay]

I have seen both of them play multiple times in the Norwegian and Swedish league. They are both sublime talents. My question was how Nypan could be a tier or two below Bergvall. I just can’t see it. I actually had Nypan above Bergvall, but I am not a professional scout, so might overlook something.

Which is fair. So long as you have watched both players a fair bit, you are entitled to an opinion on both players. If you think Nypan is better, then that’s valid. People need to stop trying to turn art into science. There is no equation that can ‘prove’ that you are factually wrong in your assessment, same as vice versa. They are obviously both very talented, if you think one is more so than the other, then that’s good enough for me.

What I can’t accept is someone who hasn’t really watched both insisting a view is wrong because of Opta or whatever. These are kids. Developing players. Stats do not matter a single bit at this stage, only their qualities.

 

[Rozay]

You have the exact same bias towards Bergvall if not more-so. Having watched him a lot its perfectly natural that you would want your time to be more meaningful and a player you like to do well. The fact you still cant identify why you think hes better is telling.

He clearly said he has watched both plenty. Which makes him uniquely qualified to judge who he thinks is better.

 

[Ekeke]

He clearly said he has watched both plenty. Which makes him uniquely qualified to judge who he thinks is better.

No, he said he went to matches and watched Bergvall lots of times. He hasnt done that for Nypan

 

[Ace of Spades]

Yes it is. He hadn’t played in the champions league when we agreed to sign him. You said he had.

He’d barely played 45 mins of first team football full stop. None of which was champions league. I dont think 3 substitute appearances constitutes “games for Atalanta” either.

Anyway, moving on. They should totally sign this lad, he plays beyond his years in my eyes.

I did not take into account of when the transfer was agreed which was my fault. All I knew was that he had played for them in the CL and league before he came to us in Jan.

The point there being, that he was rated very highly by Atalanta and they did not want to lose him, and he was clearly a part of their plans. The fact that he got more time even after the deal was agreed should back that point even more. Also, the key difference being the strength of the two leagues is different. So trying to guess the price this guy would cost, based on the price of that transfer is not going to work, which is the point I was making to your original post.

Most of the recent transfers for young players like Nypan have been in the region of 5-10m, so it is probably going to be in the range as well. It is also reported we have alternatives for him, so if they ask for too much we can just move on to another target.

BEFORE we signed him. That’s the basis for the signing, not whatever happens after the deal is done. And even by the time he got to us he had only played like 6 matches matches for Atalanta.

I agree there’s no need for that kind of phrasing, but he certainly had a point.

I did not take into account the timing of the agreement, I just knew that he had played for them in the league and the CL before he came here. Still, he completely missed the point I was making, which was related to the cost of this transfer. Trying to compare two transfers from two different leagues, and two different players and different circumstances is not going to work.

No. The way you had it written made it sound like Amad was a regular in the Serie A. In other words, you kind of said he's a regular without saying he is a regular. Now you're trying to save face by choosing to be literal about his number of appearances when he was at Atalanta.

Nypan at 18 is a far more better and experienced player than Amad was at the same age. Yes, Amad played in a far better league but that doesn't mean anything when he played a total of about 50-60 minutes in 2 seasons.

Trigg won. Take the L

Stop trying to find some hidden context that does not exist. If I believed that he was a regular for Atalanta, then I would have mentioned that he was such.

As for Nypan having more experience in the norwegian league, that does not really matter for us. Our interest is more for his talent, than his performance in that league. His prior performances mean little for how he would do here in a potential move and in a much tougher league.

And yes, the strength of the league matters when it comes to the price of the deal, which was the point of my original post. Most of the recent transfers in that league for young players like Nypan are in the range of 5-10m. Trying to compare the two players players and situations and trying to guess price based on that will be useless.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Which is fair. So long as you have watched both players a fair bit, you are entitled to an opinion on both players. If you think Nypan is better, then that’s valid. People need to stop trying to turn art into science. There is no equation that can ‘prove’ that you are factually wrong in your assessment, same as vice versa. They are obviously both very talented, if you think one is more so than the other, then that’s good enough for me.

What I can’t accept is someone who hasn’t really watched both insisting a view is wrong because of Opta or whatever. These are kids. Developing players. Stats do not matter a single bit at this stage, only their qualities.

Well while I agree with the sentiment here actually stats matter an awful lot at this age too.

For example one of the greatest predictors of future success in the early teens is competitive minutes played (relative to competition strength). CIES regularly report on this and you’ll be surprised how many player who rank highly here go on to be successful. When you combine that with goals and assists at the age of 17 I think they at least open the door to who is worth looking at in more detail.

What I took issue was the assertion that Nypan is a tier or two below Bergvall. Having seen both I’d personally put Nypan a touch higher and certainly wouldn’t feel comfortable at 18 raising one so clearly above another (especially when my own eyes don’t show this and scouting sources I trust due to past analysis would agree).

I say this as someone who watches more football now than I think I ever have in my life. I do believe watching a player play is very important, of course, but it’s now so silly to suggest there’s nothing in data given its now the first port of call for player scouting process at most major clubs.

 

[Bondi77]

Would we all be in agreement that the Kagawa that came from Dortmund to us would tear up the Norwegian league?

 

[RedWilliam]

Would we all be in agreement that the Kagawa that came from Dortmund to us would tear up the Norwegian league?

Hah. I bet even the Mkhitaryan we got from Dortmund would tear that shait up.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Would we all be in agreement that the Kagawa that came from Dortmund to us would tear up the Norwegian league?

At 17? No.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

For context and I’d have to double check I don’t remember Kagawa making any competitive appearances for Osaka before his 17th birthday and he’s widely regarded as one of the best Japanese footballers of all time.

You can think Nypan could be a very special talent and also accept that it’s no guarantee of success long term.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Some points in favor of Bergvall, though keep in mind that he's 10 months older.

- He has been a regular substitute for Tottenham for four months, from his first opportunity, and has recently gotten his first PL start. Nypan plays with and against vastly inferior players.
- Bergvall plays for the Swedish national team, which is stronger than the Norwegian team. Nypan plays u18 and u21. Bergvall had already gotten his senior debut by the age Nypan is now.
- More hype about Bergvall than Nypan pre transfer, both domestically and internationally (this is just my impression, not going to argue against anyone thinking differently). Also, Bergvall actually got his big transfer.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

Well while I agree with the sentiment here actually stats matter an awful lot at this age too.

For example one of the greatest predictors of future success in the early teens is competitive minutes played (relative to competition strength). CIES regularly report on this and you’ll be surprised how many player who rank highly here go on to be successful. When you combine that with goals and assists at the age of 17 I think they at least open the door to who is worth looking at in more detail.

What I took issue was the assertion that Nypan is a tier or two below Bergvall. Having seen both I’d personally put Nypan a touch higher and certainly wouldn’t feel comfortable at 18 raising one so clearly above another (especially when my own eyes don’t show this and scouting sources I trust due to past analysis would agree).

I say this as someone who watches more football now than I think I ever have in my life. I do believe watching a player play is very important, of course, but it’s now so silly to suggest there’s nothing in data given its now the first port of call for player scouting process at most major clubs.

I came across the CIES reports a couple of years ago, and their analytics I've seen on wonderkids seems reasonably sophisticated, and relatively accurate especially with their top tier rankings, and this is someone who works as a data scientist.
I think they also use reasonable criteria based on a certain number of minutes played/sample size before including players into their analytics models and clearly have a coefficient that factors in the strength of the league when using the rankings.

It saddens me that we've wasted the past decade by being so far behind in data science/analytics. At least that's something that SJR acknowledges.

 

[Bondi77]

For context and I’d have to double check I don’t remember Kagawa making any competitive appearances for Osaka before his 17th birthday and he’s widely regarded as one of the best Japanese footballers of all time.

You can think Nypan could be a very special talent and also accept that it’s no guarantee of success long term.

For context you have given an answer to a question you have posed and tagged it to my post.
My post was based on a player that teared it up in Germany but had very little impact in England and if he tore it up in Germany the mind boggles to what he would have done in Norway.
Don't go overboard on what youngsters do in crap leagues as what he is doing is no different from what Powell or Henriquez did....get excited when they start doing it at the top level.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

For context you have given an answer to a question you have posed and tagged it to my post.
My post was based on a player that teared it up in Germany but had very little impact in England and if he tore it up in Germany the mind boggles to what he would have done in Norway.
Don't go overboard on what youngsters do in crap leagues as what he is doing is no different from what Powell or Henriquez did....get excited when they start doing it at the top level.

But the only sensible way to view your question is through the framing of still emerging teenage Kagawa, not relatively European experienced Kagawa.

I understand the premise of your argument I just don’t think it’s a particularly useful comparison.

I don’t think anyone is getting overly excited beyond saying that Nypan is a promising youngster who has shown very good signs in his early development which suggest a higher % chance of success at the next level than the vast majority of players at his age.

 

[Brightonian]

This would basically be a Yoro-esque signing, right? A best-in-class youngster. Therefore interest from across Europe. Get them if you can get them.

 

[NotThatSoph]

This would basically be a Yoro-esque signing, right? A best-in-class youngster. Therefore interest from across Europe. Get them if you can get them.

No, not even close. Yoro-esque would be Mainoo, one of the Barca youngsters starting for Barca, or others in that mould. Would also cost 100m, not 10.

 

[Brightonian]

No, not even close. Yoro-esque would be Mainoo, one of the Barca youngsters starting for Barca, or others in that mould. Would also cost 100m, not 10.

Oh so he won't cost much? I haven't really followed this, just curious.

I thought Yoro because at 18 he's already racked up lots of senior football, and in the discussions everyone is saying he's (one of) the best player(s) in his generation in his position, which is meant to be Yoro's schtick too.

 

[Bondi77]

But the only sensible way to view your question is through the framing of still emerging teenage Kagawa, not relatively European experienced Kagawa.

I understand the premise of your argument I just don’t think it’s a particularly useful comparison.

I don’t think anyone is getting overly excited beyond saying that Nypan is a promising youngster who has shown very good signs in his early development which suggest a higher % chance of success at the next level than the vast majority of players at his age.

It's not as I would not have a clue on what level Kagawa was as a teenager.
If we do get him and it seems highly likely I would have him in the u21s and see how he does there.
It seems to be so hard to grasp and that includes managers that have not coached in England the physical step up to compete in the Premier League...I think the only one that got it straight away was Jose.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Oh so he won't cost much? I haven't really followed this, just curious.

I thought Yoro because at 18 he's already racked up lots of senior football, and in the discussions everyone is saying he's (one of) the best player(s) in his generation in his position, which is meant to be Yoro's schtick too.

I doubt you'll find anyone saying that outside of this thread.

At the age of 18 he already has two seasons of senior football (in a weak league, of course). He's clearly talented. Beyond that, I don't know. There won't be much competition for his signing, it's not a name that will make headlines before he actually does something on the pitch. Might become a superstar, might be back in Norway soon, if he actually leaves.

 

[Rozay]

Well while I agree with the sentiment here actually stats matter an awful lot at this age too.

For example one of the greatest predictors of future success in the early teens is competitive minutes played (relative to competition strength). CIES regularly report on this and you’ll be surprised how many player who rank highly here go on to be successful. When you combine that with goals and assists at the age of 17 I think they at least open the door to who is worth looking at in more detail.

What I took issue was the assertion that Nypan is a tier or two below Bergvall. Having seen both I’d personally put Nypan a touch higher and certainly wouldn’t feel comfortable at 18 raising one so clearly above another (especially when my own eyes don’t show this and scouting sources I trust due to past analysis would agree).

I say this as someone who watches more football now than I think I ever have in my life. I do believe watching a player play is very important, of course, but it’s now so silly to suggest there’s nothing in data given its now the first port of call for player scouting process at most major clubs.

In all likelihood, any data will simply confirm what you see. And if it doesn’t, then you simply have to question the data. There’s nobody that can tell me that Hojlund was better than Isak, and then claim that they can ‘prove’ it with a bunch of numbers, for example. Without even reading them, I will dismiss those numbers, and frankly, dismiss that person too. I don’t have any care for all these numbers at all, because I would imagine that if I did - Isak would of course have better numbers than Hojlund across the board anyway, simply because he’s better than him. From that perspective, which one am I supposed to go to first? The numbers or the fact that I have watched both plenty?

Now with young players, numbers are even more irrelevant. When both players are not good enough/ready to walk into your team today - then it matters not who appears to be the most prepared (statistically) at that stage. The concern for any team buying a player is how good they will be by 22 for example. Whoever is leading in ‘take-ons per 90’ or whatever at 16 matters zero, because you can EASILY watch both players and be extremely confident that the other one will be leading in them by 22. The fact that Charlie McNeill or whatever that youth striker’s name is that we got from City a few years ago who is now in League One somewhere- scored hundreds of youth team goals doesn’t mean anybody at all expects him to score 30 PL goals a season. I don’t think anybody, at any point, ever expected that from him. However, you would need to watch him to see that he isn’t that guy. Numbers say that he is.

The way some people talk today, I wonder why they even bother watching football at all. Simply go and ready some numbers after a game. The way I see it, if I watch a game with my own eyes and think a player had either a good game or a bad game, NOTHING I subsequently read could change my mind on that. I would expect numbers to confirm that they had a good game, but wouldn’t care if they didn’t. Mason Mount is probably one of those types of footballers that I imagine generally ’reads’ like a better player than he watches. At Chelsea, he had good output, I’m sure topped all other arbitrary charts for various ‘actions’ (was always a busy so and so), but nobody watched him and thought he was a special player really. The Real Madrid’s of this world would never have been interested.

To bring it back to the point, anyone is entitled to watch two teenagers play and decide who is better. Feck knows how you all judge players when you go and watch football in the park!

 

[BenitoSTARR]

This would basically be a Yoro-esque signing, right? A best-in-class youngster. Therefore interest from across Europe. Get them if you can get them.

Not really. Nypan is certainly talented but I’d argue Yoro had proven himself at a higher level and with greater consistency and involvement.

This is very much Nypan’s breakout season so there’s an added element of risk based on lower mins played that we wouldn’t expect from Yoro so much.

Only as they’ve been debated in here he’s much more like a Bergvall sensible gamble on promising young player than a Yoro near guarantee.

 

[andersj]

Bergvall plays for the Swedish national team, which is stronger than the Norwegian team. Nypan plays u18 and u21. Bergvall had already gotten his senior debut by the age Nypan is now.

Could be a good point. There is not really a position for Nypan at Norway. And if there is, he is probably up against Odegaard, Nusa, Bobb. And then Schejlderup and Elyanoussi. Not sure the competition is the same in Sweden in that area of the pitch.

But Bergwall could be better for all I know. Not that confident of Nypan. I actually like Egeli a lot better than Nypan. He seems like a physical beast.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

In all likelihood, any data will simply confirm what you see. And if it doesn’t, then you simply have to question the data. There’s nobody that can tell me that Hojlund was better than Isak, and then claim that they can ‘prove’ it with a bunch of numbers, for example. Without even reading them, I will dismiss those numbers, and frankly, dismiss that person too. I don’t have any care for all these numbers at all, because I would imagine that if I did - Isak would of course have better numbers than Hojlund across the board anyway, simply because he’s better than him. From that perspective, which one am I supposed to go to first? The numbers or the fact that I have watched both plenty?

Now with young players, numbers are even more irrelevant. When both players are not good enough/ready to walk into your team today - then it matters not who appears to be the most prepared (statistically) at that stage. The concern for any team buying a player is how good they will be by 22 for example. Whoever is leading in ‘take-ons per 90’ or whatever at 16 matters zero, because you can EASILY watch both players and be extremely confident that the other one will be leading in them by 22. The fact that Charlie McNeill or whatever that youth striker’s name is that we got from City a few years ago who is now in League One somewhere- scored hundreds of youth team goals doesn’t mean anybody at all expects him to score 30 PL goals a season. I don’t think anybody, at any point, ever expected that from him. However, you would need to watch him to see that he isn’t that guy. Numbers say that he is.

The way some people talk today, I wonder why they even bother watching football at all. Simply go and ready some numbers after a game. The way I see it, if I watch a game with my own eyes and think a player had either a good game or a bad game, NOTHING I subsequently read could change my mind on that. I would expect numbers to confirm that they had a good game, but wouldn’t care if they didn’t. Mason Mount is probably one of those types of footballers that I imagine generally ’reads’ like a better player than he watches. At Chelsea, he had good output, I’m sure topped all other arbitrary charts for various ‘actions’ (was always a busy so and so), but nobody watched him and thought he was a special player really. The Real Madrid’s of this world would never have been interested.

To bring it back to the point, anyone is entitled to watch two teenagers play and decide who is better. Feck knows how you all judge players when you go and watch football in the park!

Ok. You know I agreed with you about seeing the player being important but you’re also really odd hindsight examples here. Isak at 17/18 was a player you knew would be good enough for the PL? Or younger? Højlund hasn’t had the same time develop and so we’re comparing apples with pears.


But also the eye test wouldn’t show you that despite Isak being a better all round player Højlund is the more clinical finisher based on chances available to him 95th percentile for npXG. Now you are free to dismiss that but it shows he’s a good finisher at least which many wouldn’t see.

If you’re just saying if you watch both players now you could see Isak is better, then well, yeah isn’t that obvious? And the point is that for those who haven’t watched both players in equal measure there are now plenty of ways to determine what they are good at. Literally every elite club does this before physically going to watch the player now, you’d be stunned by the data available to clubs even about academy players now (I’ve seen it first hand).

I think you’re arguing against a fictional viewpoint here. Nobody said that a competent eye test isn’t worth its weight in gold. But I’ve already used a competent eye test to make my mind up, and I don’t solely rely on mine despite my background.

But I also think even with players like Mount there is a reason Tuchel, Ten Hag, Amorim, Southgate and Lampard all rated him. It’s probably because he’s a good player.

Long story short, data is king in football scouting at the moment and its reign will be long. Once the data highlights someone who looks good, then most clubs tend to send assign an analyst to look at footage, then maybe a scout to watch them live. But live scouting is so inefficient when I can search for clips of player x doing y now. You might disagree but I know the business won’t.

 

[Bondi77]

Hah. I bet even the Mkhitaryan we got from Dortmund would tear that shait up.

For sure....they would have been Gods

 

[BarstoolProphet]

For context you have given an answer to a question you have posed and tagged it to my post.
My post was based on a player that teared it up in Germany but had very little impact in England and if he tore it up in Germany the mind boggles to what he would have done in Norway.
Don't go overboard on what youngsters do in crap leagues as what he is doing is no different from what Powell or Henriquez did....get excited when they start doing it at the top level.

How come not many more youngsters do it then? Norwegian league is obviously poor compared to the bigger leagues, but foor context I can only recall a select few playing at Nypan's level or above at his age (sub-18) this past decade. Those players being Ødegaard, Haaland and Nusa. You could argue all of those would be great signings for us?

 

[WhyYouGottaBeSoRuud?]

I like what I've seen of him. Transfermarkt states his contact is up December 2026 and suggests he's worth about €12m (which is about £10m) - if you add the United tax then he's probably gettable for £15-20m which I think is reasonable for his age and potential.