Hardly any development, be it story-wise or character arc-wise is kind of the point of the show, isn't it?
Television Succession
- Thread starter cyberman
- Start date
Is this show any good?
Thought Shiv's character has developed well, I think she's been the best arc of the season, as well as in terms of individual scenes. Enjoyed pretty every scenes she's in.
Yeah, there's some development, of course — Shiv, mainly, Tom & probably the biggest one of all, Greg (since he was an outside character that was used for explaining a lot of the exposition). But a lot of the show is about this pointless repetitive never-ending cycle of their lives in this isolated bubble where even huge events like multi-billion deals & harassment scandals get sidelined — and you get much more entertainment from viewing their countless interactions rather than following the narrative plot.
If compare this show with Billions you'll see the opposite example where characters from similar circle subdue to the narrative structure of the show even though you still get a lot of great scenes & dialogs from very memorable heroes. I love both shows by the way, especially Succession though, probably the best thing on TV at the moment.
It maybe didn't really hit the nail on the head with some but I think that was the whole point, that given the amount of corruption that runs across these families, biggest of scandals would come and go with no one being harmed. Even a relative lesser name like Tom is not getting affected. The guy who has written this has a hard on for portraying the American Commercial Ecosystem as massively dystopian. So I was never really expecting any of these guys being put to justice for the shite they've pulled off.
It is possible to make shows about people who struggle to change or escape cycles without the show itself becoming stuck in its cycles.
Oh, I think you may have misunderstood me (seeing as both of you did, it's certainly a loose wording on my part) — it's the intended point of the show and I love it. It's not the case of them failing to write a proper storyline, it's an example of a perfectly done writing that manages to go the way that not many shows do.
Pretty much. I think a lot of people got swayed by the S2 finale thinking there will be a big showdown, maybe some epic courtroom drama or something, but this show is more on the realistic spectrum than the dramatic one, so a lot of things getting swept down the carpet, similar to the whole shareholder vote, is nothing new.
But I do think the characters especially the three siblings have surely moved, in their own ways.
And as I said earlier, once this season is over and people watch it in one go, it will come out as much better. There are so many references and correlations across episodes that we miss when watching in isolation.
Talking of character development:
I don't really buy what the ending of the previous episode was selling (i.e., Kendall being dead, or at least in the process of killing himself), but the argument for him taking his own life, is that where else is his character going to go? His arc is finished, really. He's never going to get back in the family business. His siblings and own kids seem done with him. The only option he had was to get out with a fat pay off, but Logan shut that idea down just to torture him some more.
What's he going to do now? Grow his hair back, do a few lines, and try and destroy his father? He's already been there. I suppose it would make sense for him to take his life at this point, considering he's been spiraling for ages. I just don't think the show will do it.
What's he going to do now? Grow his hair back, do a few lines, and try and destroy his father? He's already been there. I suppose it would make sense for him to take his life at this point, considering he's been spiraling for ages. I just don't think the show will do it.
Only thing I can see is him publicly admitting to killing the guy in season 1 and exposing the cover up his dad orchestrated , as a final attempt to bring Logan down (with him). Ideally that happens after the merger and the family has to deal with the crazy blonde guy
That's far too unrealistic.
That's probably what you'd have said about the s2 finale. I think it was foreshadowed already with the PR girl, definitely something is going to unravel there.
Yeah the S2 finale was quite unrealistic as well, maybe they will pull off something like that in that podcast to keep people engaged for the next season.
It's really difficult to say. A few weeks ago I would have said yes it's a great show as I was really looking forward to it returning after the last finale.
However I just gave up on it this season after four episodes as it clearly was going nowhere really slowly.
The acting is great it is very watchable but when you finish an episode and realise that absolutely nothing happened plot wise is hard to keep going
Jesus, how can you give up on it after watching 2.5 seasons? This season has been been wayward in terms of overarching plot but it’s still full of great dialogue, fantastic acting and captivating mini story lines.
Oh wait you’re the guy who’s written of Rangnick already aren’t you, never mind.
Jesus.
Yeah I mean it hasn't been on the same level as season two but even at a lower level it's still one of the best shows on TV.
I don't think that's what they're trying to sell at all and I don't really get why so many people seem to think that.
if he did end up killing himself it wouldn't be anticlimactically being melodramatic in a pool. And you can't actually kill yourself that way unless you do so much drugs you pass out and don't wake up in the drowning process somehow
I also don't really get the complaints of nothing happening and I agree with whoever said that this is basically the point of the show, no matter what they do it doesn't have actual consequences, they're still out there helping elect American presidents. Of course at the same time they're all deeply unhappy and miserable people which they take out on themselves and everyone around them. It's all about the characters and less about some kind of bombastic plot although it will be interesting to see how it develops and how the show ends, will it end up with with death or the destruction of Waystar Royco.. will it end with business as usual? I do think that this show has a limited shelf life but I think that's the case with most shows who usually end up overstaying their welcome, but apparently the writer/producer? already said it ends at season 5?
Maybe. I don't know about that. Not beyond the realms of possibility, I guess, but I suppose Logan would find a way to squirm out of it somehow. Also, I'm not sure that Kendall has the stones to condemn himself to a lifetime (or close to it) in prison.
The more i think about the ending, the more it does make sense for his character to die. Although, Kendall is the main thrust of the show for me, so to kill him off now when they still got 1/2 more seasons in them seems...not great. Because I really couldn't care less about who actually takes over the company. That's not the show, for me.
One thing i hope they don't do, is for him to technically drown and "die" but someone see's him and saves him in time. That would be the kind of manipulative "gotcha" moment that this show has shied away from so far. Whether he dies or not, i can't wait until next week.
One thing i hope they don't do, is for him to technically drown and "die" but someone see's him and saves him in time. That would be the kind of manipulative "gotcha" moment that this show has shied away from so far. Whether he dies or not, i can't wait until next week.
Can’t see it. That’s basically the cruises storyline and they danced through that .
It's a bit different though, since it is personal culpability this time. And also, this is something that has been constantly eating him, and in a way accumulating baggage that probably explains a lot of the odd shit he does.
Come on. I mean, it's clear that they're toying with that idea. It's been foreshadowed since season two, as well as this season, and this very episode, too!
You'd have to be very disingenuous to suggest otherwise. Whether they will actually go through with it is another matter, but the people who make this show aren't dummies; they know what they're doing by ending the episode like that, evidenced by the fact that nearly every major publication who writes about this show (not to mention everyone on social media) is talking about the "cliffhanger" aspect of it.
As for your last paragraph, I've never said anything to the contrary.
Yeah but it’s nothing that he really signed off on and it was the security that sorted it (I forget his name)
Honestly, the theme seems to be that the rich don’t go to jail and it’s not as if Logan was driving the car and, as we seen from the last episode, he seems to be incredible powerful with Westminster anyway.
Definitely. It's not been a masterpiece like season one and two, but you're judging by a very high standard.
Oh I agree that nothing will happen to Logan ultimately. That's the whole point of the series it seems. But I was suggesting Ken might try it out of some desperation and sense of guilt.
On the whole Kendall in the pool thing at the end of the last episode:
Isn’t this likely to be linked to the comment Logan made to him about the dead waiter kid and “how many minutes did he spend breathing in water before you left the scene” or whatever his exact words were?
I’m totally expecting the next episode to open with him pulling head face out of the water, potentially after an intro or “previously on” segment showing Logan making that comment.
I’m totally expecting the next episode to open with him pulling head face out of the water, potentially after an intro or “previously on” segment showing Logan making that comment.
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Yep.
Yeah I just don't think it's perfectly done writing, given that a fair amount of people are tired of it already.
Mad Men was also about a rich guy stuck in a cycle of self-loathing brought on by abuse, unable to love healthily, but by this point of its run, he'd gotten divorced and was soon to start a new company. Things happened, and when they didn't (not getting divorced, company not going bankrupt, identity not being revealed) it happened in a much more meaningful way. Here, things are just handwaved away from one episode to the next. The narrative is not internally consistent. People think things are important because the show keeps telling them they are, until it says "oh wait they aren't."
Yeah, the whole submerged underwater thing has been foreshadowed a few times, even last season. Obviously, Logan saying what he said being one of them. As I said, I don't think he's dead or in the middle of killing himself. Although the more I think about it, the more it makes sense for him as a character. But if he isn't dead, I'm very intrigued to see where they take him, without repeating his arc again.
I'm talking about that specific scene though.
I don't see how that was some major cliffhanger, rather than it just being a response to what Logan said... he didn't just randomly become comatose in the 5 secs after the kids left so he wouldn't actually be able to kill himself that way, if that was the intention we would have some indication that he might've taken some pills and then gone into the water
That last paragraph wasn't directed at you but at people who complained that nothing happened.
Well, personally, I don't think it's a cliffhanger in the sense that I don't think he's dead. But you were saying you don't understand how people could read into it that he's is dead or at least in the middle of taking his own life. I disagree with that because I can easily see why people would interpret it that way, due to how it was shot. The people who make this show know what they're doing. Him taking his own life, being submerged underwater, the callbacks to the incident at the end of season 1, have been there since season 2. What Logan said is merely one piece of foreshadowing, so I don't think it's a big logical leap to think he's finely cracked and decided to end it all. And, again, the writers know this.
In terms of not seeing him take any drugs, etc, I think it's reasonable to expect Kendall to be fecked up on a cocktail of drugs and alcohol without seeing him actually ingest any on camera. There have been numerous times this season where he's clearly been on something, but we haven't actually seen him take anything. I think we can just infer at this point that he's never far away from some form of narcotic
Just to make it clear, I don't think he's dead, or necessarily attempting to take his own life. I think the next episode will open and he's fine. I'm more inclined to agree with you. Although, I am coming around to the idea that his character dying off may make more sense in terms of his arc.
In terms of not seeing him take any drugs, etc, I think it's reasonable to expect Kendall to be fecked up on a cocktail of drugs and alcohol without seeing him actually ingest any on camera. There have been numerous times this season where he's clearly been on something, but we haven't actually seen him take anything. I think we can just infer at this point that he's never far away from some form of narcotic
Just to make it clear, I don't think he's dead, or necessarily attempting to take his own life. I think the next episode will open and he's fine. I'm more inclined to agree with you. Although, I am coming around to the idea that his character dying off may make more sense in terms of his arc.
Would he even have to squirm? Kendall came after his father three times already, he's a known drug user, was under the influence during the night of the crime and as far as we know there is not a shred of evidence for Logan's involvement. Maybe if he got Marcia to testify or something, but even if she were open to that idea we all know she'd rather just use it as her own leverage against Logan. Sounds like a weak potential storyline to me and Charlie Kelly could probably pull of a successful defense.
Yeah, like said i don't think they will go down that road. Doesn't make too much sense to me. The only people who know are Kendall, Marcia, her son, Logan and the security guy (can't remember his name). And as far as i know there's no evidence of Logans involvement, no. Perhaps Kendall merely mentioning it would cause huge ramifications, but let's be honest - we're kidding ourselves if we think that would be enough to kill Logan.
This is why I'm super interested to see where they take Kendall from here.
That finale has taken the lid off the siblings' worst impulses. It hasn't had immediate repercussions for Logan (yet) but it has turned the whole family and business into a proper nest of vipers. It has changed things.
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Mildly interesting fact, in real life Brian Cox is only 10 years older than Alan Ruck (who plays Con).
Yeah it’s weird that he’s 81 in the show. He doesn’t look it at all.
I have an uncle who just happens to have turned 81 recently, who more or less looks like "Logan Roy". But I would have bet my life on the guy who is playing Connor not being a day over 55.
I've just realised that Justine Lupe (Willa in the show) is NOT Lucy Walters (Holly in Power).
She looked so like her I just assumed it was her this whole time. But it isn't.
Huh
She looked so like her I just assumed it was her this whole time. But it isn't.
Huh