Static, slow motion zombie passing

-----------------Carrick---------------Cleverley----------------

-----Nani--------------------Rooney------------------Kagawa

---------------------------Van Persie--------------------------

looks like a decent solution :drool:
 
-----------------Carrick---------------Cleverley----------------

-----Nani--------------------Rooney------------------Kagawa

---------------------------Van Persie--------------------------

looks like a decent solution :drool:

Looks shit. This is how it goes:

---------Rooney----RvP---------
--------------------------------
-------------Kagawa------------
---------------------------------
------Cleverley-----Carrick-------
---------------------------------
-------------Scholes-------------
---------------------------------
Evra------Vidic-----Rio-----Rafael
 
And if not, I suppose there's always:

--------------Scholes--------------Ando---------------

Valencia----------------Giggs------------------Young

----------------------Welbeck--------------------------

You forgot Bebe in there somewhere, Bebe.
 
Can somebody run a message to the lads in our attack of how Shinji Kagawa plays?

That they don't need to recycle the ball and pump it back out to the wing and hoof it back into the middle for a cross. If you let him move off you, you can pass it to him and he'll pull the strings around you moving for him.

We looked today like a team who had no clue how Kagawa plays and it made him look like he was on another planet technically. I am looking forward to how this works with RvP because it's similar to the service he was getting at Arsenal.
 
I am looking forward to how this works with RvP because it's similar to the service he was getting at Arsenal.
The whole Arsenal attacking mechanism was centred around RvP last season, you won't be able or want to replicate it.
 
In the final third the style of passing can be replicated. It's similar to the role the service Chicharito should be getting only that he's offside constantly and sucks the nub technically. Give him something from wide in behind though and he'll put it away 7/10.
 
This was definitely happening last night.

And particularly, oddly enough, during the last 30 minutes of the match.

At times it seemed we thought the key to breaking Everton down is looking at each other for five seconds, refuse to move, then play the ball to the closest player to you. Rinse and repeat until the ball is lost and we have to scramble back to prevent a goal against.

The tempo in our play was atrocious - Kagawa's the only one who's getting away from that performance with any credit.
 
Basically, all of our players stand perfectly still, except for the one who actually has the ball

What I can't stand is when the player with the ball is standing still looking for a pass. That shouldn't be happening, there should always be someone free or running in to space.
 
Looks shit. This is how it goes:

---------Rooney----RvP---------
--------------------------------
-------------Kagawa------------
---------------------------------
------Cleverley-----Carrick-------
---------------------------------
-------------Scholes-------------
---------------------------------
Evra------Vidic-----Rio-----Rafael

:lol: aye...:wenger:
 
I've come to the conclusion we need to drop Scholes in order to address this. Daft as that sounds.

When he's in the team our players just seem to stand there waiting for him to ping balls out to the wing, which invariably takes far too long to happen and becomes completely pointless as soon as the opposition fullback is behind the play. Even when it does result in us getting a cross in, the opposition have so many players back by that point it's near impossible for it to result in anything. It's also absolutely fecking awful to watch. I actually get bored with our games half the time.

Monday night was a perfect example, and I'm betting tomorrow will be another if we line up the same. If the team wont take the initiative to kick themselves up the arse, force them to.
 
I've come to the conclusion we need to drop Scholes in order to address this. Daft as that sounds.

When he's in the team our players just seem to stand there waiting for him to ping balls out to the wing, which invariably takes far too long to happen and becomes completely pointless as soon as the opposition fullback is behind the play. Even when it does result in us getting a cross in, the opposition have so many players back by that point it's near impossible for it to result in anything. It's also absolutely fecking awful to watch. I actually get bored with our games half the time.

Monday night was a perfect example, and I'm betting tomorrow will be another if we line up the same.

I'm not sure about the Scholes theory but what took you so long to bump this thread? The whole "zombie passing" reached it's peak on Monday. Not sure we'll see it performed at that high a level again.
 
Dropping Scholes is a horrible thought, but it might be a necessary move. Watching him and Cleverley against Everton, it seemed like they were performing the same role. While they both play that role well, with Kagawa playing just ahead, I'm not sure we need them both in there.

Now is the time to see what Cleverley can do, so sadly this would mean Scholes playing less. Of course, none of this will make a difference unless we get Carrick back where he is supposed to be.
 
I've come to the conclusion we need to drop Scholes in order to address this. Daft as that sounds.

When he's in the team our players just seem to stand there waiting for him to ping balls out to the wing, which invariably takes far too long to happen and becomes completely pointless as soon as the opposition fullback is behind the play. Even when it does result in us getting a cross in, the opposition have so many players back by that point it's near impossible for it to result in anything. It's also absolutely fecking awful to watch. I actually get bored with our games half the time.

Monday night was a perfect example, and I'm betting tomorrow will be another if we line up the same. If the team wont take the initiative to kick themselves up the arse, force them to.

Nothing daft about it, it's high time to relegate Scholes to a luxury player/fringe player. The man will be 38 in November and he already retired once! Cleverley should definitely be ahead of him in the pecking order and though I'm a bit tired of Anderson he at least might still have a future.

Not to mention that Fergie almost never takes Scholes off when things go badly. Even when he's patently not up to the pace.
 
----------Carrick
----Cleverley Kagawa
--Valencia
----- Rooney
-------RVP

I'd prefer 2 wingers against weaker opposition.
 
I've come to the conclusion we need to drop Scholes in order to address this. Daft as that sounds.

It's not daft at all, it's obvious and has been for a long time, Monday just made glaringly apparent.
 
It's very apparent against top class opposition and teams who press our midfield, and don't give him the time. Scholes is fine against teams who sit back.
 
It's very apparent against top class opposition and teams who press our midfield, and don't give him the time. Scholes is fine against teams who sit back.

Exactly. With teams we expect to dominate possession against he's invaluable in controlling the ball and wearing down the opposition, in addition to being able to play a killer ball over the top when the opportunity presents itself.

But against a team that will harry and press us further up the pitch his age and lack of athleticism prevent him from finding that extra yard he could when he was younger. Furthermore, he may as well not be there if an opposition player is running through the middle with the ball. Unless he fouls them. Which doesn't help generally. Watching him try to keep up with Yaya Toure last year was painfully hilarious.
 
It looks like Scholes seems to be better off against weaker teams at home nowadays. Also when we need to defend
 
I've come to the conclusion we need to drop Scholes in order to address this. Daft as that sounds.

When he's in the team our players just seem to stand there waiting for him to ping balls out to the wing, which invariably takes far too long to happen and becomes completely pointless as soon as the opposition fullback is behind the play. Even when it does result in us getting a cross in, the opposition have so many players back by that point it's near impossible for it to result in anything. It's also absolutely fecking awful to watch. I actually get bored with our games half the time.

Monday night was a perfect example, and I'm betting tomorrow will be another if we line up the same. If the team wont take the initiative to kick themselves up the arse, force them to.

Truth.
 
I've come to the conclusion we need to drop Scholes in order to address this. Daft as that sounds.

When he's in the team our players just seem to stand there waiting for him to ping balls out to the wing, which invariably takes far too long to happen and becomes completely pointless as soon as the opposition fullback is behind the play. Even when it does result in us getting a cross in, the opposition have so many players back by that point it's near impossible for it to result in anything. It's also absolutely fecking awful to watch. I actually get bored with our games half the time.

Monday night was a perfect example, and I'm betting tomorrow will be another if we line up the same. If the team wont take the initiative to kick themselves up the arse, force them to.

Exactly.

In all honesty on Monday it looked like our whole team was built around Scholes, every move had to start with him. It's slow, predictable, ineffective and awful to watch.
 
The Anderson and Cleverley combination should be given another try now both players are fit, they were tremendous at the beginning of last season.
 
That success was short lived.

We were playing a we'll score more goals than you system, was entertaining. How long would it have lasted..Injuries prevented us from knowing. I do think it is the way in some games though. Possibly would have worked at Everton as we would have pressed them higher up the pitch..Mind you without 2 recognised CB's could have been dodgy.
 
-----------------Carrick---------------Cleverley----------------

-----Nani--------------------Rooney------------------Kagawa

---------------------------Van Persie--------------------------

looks like a decent solution :drool:

If everyone stays fit we have some great permutations
 
The Anderson and Cleverley combination should be given another try now both players are fit, they were tremendous at the beginning of last season.

I agree, last season the type of football we played was outstanding with those two in the line up. Sure people will argue that we were far too open but i would rather have us creating chance after chance than play the type of football we've seen towards the end of last season, pre-season and the opening game of this. And if we look at the opening 6-8 games of last season (when they were playing together) we played Asnl and Chelsea, and I hardly expected two of the top sides in the country not to create chances against us - moreso when you think we had Jones and Evans playing defense.

Also we have to remember that both are a year older with much more experience in what is required of them (i'm sure many will point that Andersons had plenty of time but hes only 24 ffs).
 
I've come to the conclusion we need to drop Scholes in order to address this. Daft as that sounds.

When he's in the team our players just seem to stand there waiting for him to ping balls out to the wing, which invariably takes far too long to happen and becomes completely pointless as soon as the opposition fullback is behind the play. Even when it does result in us getting a cross in, the opposition have so many players back by that point it's near impossible for it to result in anything. It's also absolutely fecking awful to watch. I actually get bored with our games half the time.

Monday night was a perfect example, and I'm betting tomorrow will be another if we line up the same. If the team wont take the initiative to kick themselves up the arse, force them to.

Yes

It's very apparent against top class opposition and teams who press our midfield, and don't give him the time. Scholes is fine against teams who sit back.

Yes

The Anderson and Cleverley combination should be given another try now both players are fit, they were tremendous at the beginning of last season.

Yes
 
With the exception of a few friendlies and the very odd league cup game I don't think Utd have ever bored me in my life. Even when not playing well or not overly attractive football they are the team we support and care what happens so there is always a level of tension and excitment.
 
I don't think Scholes would have started against Everton if we had a center back fit. But a game like today is tailor made for Scholes.
 
With the exception of a few friendlies and the very odd league cup game I don't think Utd have ever bored me in my life. Even when not playing well or not overly attractive football they are the team we support and care what happens so there is always a level of tension and excitment.

There is that feeling when you just know they're not going to score and they will repeat the same passing pattern for the 353246534th time to no avail. And yet nobody even attempts to do something different.

Granted, it's less like boredom and more like screaming frustration. But the monotony, the tedium is there: watching something repetitive that yields no results, has no "climax" to speak of.
 
It is frustrating that we seem to place so much emphasis on conserving energy and "being sensible" rather than going for the jugular these days. We need a kick up the arse to get going and really attack teams and it's mental considering the array of attacking talent we have.
 
I don't think Scholes would have started against Everton if we had a center back fit. But a game like today is tailor made for Scholes.


The thing is, I'm not sure it is, or if there even are games tailor made for Scholes anymore. He is a great player to have but there is no game in which we should be relying on him to run the play at this point. He isn't nearly mobile enough to do that.

In game where teams sit back, we just give the ball to him, and he pings it out wide...and then Young/Nani/Valencia have to control the ball under pressure and beat their man just to get a cross in to the box, when the defence is already sat back and closing any dangerous avenues the cross could go down anyway. This happens constantly, and lazily, instead of us moving the ball with a bit of tempo and actually creating the room for the winger or fullback to get in behind. It's like all of our players just see it as an easy option, without bothering to sconsider that it doesn't actualy work...a bit like the England/Emile Heskey/long ball scenario.

There were a number of games in the second half of last season where we trudged to difficult and dull victories by playing this way against defensive opposition, when really we should have just wrapped things up with ease (Fulham, QPR at home, Blackburn away?...Stoke, Liverpool, West Brom, etc...)...ad then there's the games where it actually costs us points.

It's why I think Scholes can only really play in the Carrick role (i.e. play instead of Carrick, not with him), and then he can't do the defensive side of Carrick's game, so he'd be second fiddle and only used in that role in certain games. He'd also be well suited to away games in Europe where we tend to try and play out on the break but often have trouble distributing the bal well enough to do so. Basically he should be a luxury option for circumstances where he'd come in handy. Not our one source of reliance for every sngle fecking "attacking" move for the entire of every single game.



It is frustrating that we seem to place so much emphasis on conserving energy and "being sensible" rather than going for the jugular these days. We need a kick up the arse to get going and really attack teams and it's mental considering the array of attacking talent we have.


The bit that annoys me about it is that if throwing away the league desn't act as a kick up the arse, just what sort of kick up the arse do this lot need? Do they actually think they're being amazing by passing the ball pointlessly around at about 2mph?

It's almost as frustrating and inexplicable as us STILL letting Nani take corners, after over five years of him being constantly shit at them. Or rarely being able to go a single game without playing two or three people needlessly out of position, even though the games we play best in are invariably the ones in which we don't do this.
 
In fairness, Ferguson has stated his intent to go for it this season. We shouldn't read too much into the Everton game. It was a bad game in isolation. We're bedding in new players and a new system.
 
The thing is, I'm not sure it is, or if there even are games tailor made for Scholes anymore. He is a great player to have but there is no game in which we should be relying on him to run the play at this point. He isn't nearly mobile enough to do that.

In game where teams sit back, we just give the ball to him, and he pings it out wide...and then Young/Nani/Valencia have to control the ball under pressure and beat their man just to get a cross in to the box, when the defence is already sat back and closing any dangerous avenues the cross could go down anyway. This happens constantly, and lazily, instead of us moving the ball with a bit of tempo and actually creating the room for the winger or fullback to get in behind. It's like all of our players just see it as an easy option, without bothering to sconsider that it doesn't actualy work...a bit like the England/Emile Heskey/long ball scenario.

Yeah that does happen a lot. But you're ignoring the positives he brings in games at OT against weaker teams. He helps us control the game and boss possession. He's always an option for our defenders to pass to and gets our wingers into the game. We're taking him for granted. His return to the team last season showed us just what we were missing.

I agree that he shouldn't be first choice anymore though but dropping him today and playing Cleverly - Anderson with Carrick in defence would be very risky.
 
In fairness, Ferguson has stated his intent to go for it this season. We shouldn't read too much into the Everton game. It was a bad game in isolation. We're bedding in new players and a new system.

The problem is, I have to go all the way back to Fulham away in december last seasn to remember the last time we played with any real attacking tempo or invention.

Apart from the odd tiny little spells in games, the only other slight exception is Swansea when we were just running around like maniacs because we needed to score about 15 goals. Or the first half of the City cup game...after their best player had been sent off.

Then on Monday, it didn't look like we wer eeven trying to implement anything different at all. It looked a lot more like we still haven't figured out what we're doing wrong. Same with the pre-season games.
 
Yeah that does happen a lot. But you're ignoring the positives he brings in games at OT against weaker teams. He helps us control the game and boss possession. He's always an option for our defenders to pass to and gets our wingers into the game. We're taking him for granted. His return to the team last season showed us just what we were missing.

I agree that he shouldn't be first choice anymore though but dropping him today and playing Cleverly - Anderson with Carrick in defence would be very risky.

We control and boss possession against weaker teams anyway, because at Old Trafford they usually don't even try to contest the midfield. They sit deep and make us try to open up space by moving them. He ends up being the best player because all the other players just default to him for every single attacking move or piece of possession, and then stand there waiting for him to play a pass forwards to another person who's just standing there.

I just don't see the point. It's time we started trusting ourselves to play without being completely reliant on a 38 year old to somehow open up defences without anyone even so much as making a run.

Today is a bit more difficult, but Fulham at home was one of the games last season in which the zombie passing/Scholes reliance very nearly cost us (in fact it would have if the ref hadn't missed a pretty blatant penalty shout).

Of course it is possibe for him to be in the team without our players regressing into zombie mode, but with the amount of time it's been going on now I'm not sure they can be trusted to figure that out.
 
I haven't really psychologically come to terms with phasing out Giggs and Scholes.

Neither has Fergie.

The problem is, I have to go all the way back to Fulham away in december last seasn to remember the last time we played with any real attacking tempo or invention.

Villa home, Everton home... even Arsenal away. I actually agree with you about the problems but give credit where it's due.
 
Neither has Fergie.



Villa home, Everton home... even Arsenal away. I actually agree with you about the problems but give credit where it's due.

Villa at home only ended up being easy because Young dived to win a penalty early on, if I recall?

Everton at home was an awful performance and we definitely did the zombie passing/slow ball out to the winger thing away to Arsenal. That game was one of the prime examples of it...we only won because Valencia got bored with it and detonated himself (see also, Blackburn away).

Seriously, I can't think of a single game where we played with a proper attacking flow or tempo, in the entire calendar year, which is extremely frustrating when we have one of the best sets of attacking players in the world.