Static, slow motion zombie passing

[Brwned]

Yeah, go on Shinji, go beat these 6' 3" defenders to these crosses

Did you watch Dortmund last year? Watch how many times they got crosses in for Lewandowski. Have a look at their right wing - Blaszczykowski and Piszczek don't play much differently to Valencia and Rafael. They love getting their crosses in, Kuba constantly darted straight for the byline. Valencia's more likely to whip it in low or get to the byline and cut it back than he is to float a cross in, and when he does decide to float it Van Persie will get goals in the air. You don't have to have 11 players all playing in the exact same way, having Valencia there for that bit of variety is a great thing to have. That was the great thing about Dortmund too, they had Kuba stretching the opposition with his pace and direct running, Lewandowski offering a more direct threat and then Gotze, Gundogan and Kagawa playing the tippy-tappy football. There was plenty of variety to their play, and a very varied attacking quartet in terms of individual skillsets.

We scored from Kagawa playing it through the middle, created a couple of great chances with Van Persie/Kagawa and Kagawa/Nani linking up in tight areas in and around the box, and we slipped Chicharito through on goal with cutting passes...and that variety is somehow turned into a criticism. More than that, that variety of play is somehow completely ignored and we're called predictable...

Kagawa and Van Persie have only been here a few weeks, of course we're more comfortable giving it to a player who has been here for over three years and is just after winning fans' and players' player of the year after he consistently won us game after game at the back end of last season. It's easy to give it to Valencia because 9 times out of 10 he'll do exactly what's asked of him, and because the whole team knows what he's going to do...over time the team will become more comfortable with Kagawa and Van Persie and we will play through the centre more, but having Valencia out there doing his thing will never be a problem.

 

[Laphroaig]

Brwned wins. Again.

 

[Ash_G]

That's very true of the Scholes-Carrick partnership, but what has Carrick done to dispel this myth when paired with other players? He's never really played that well with Anderson, yet as soon as Anderson got paired with Cleverley it suddenly looked good. Further to my last post, Anderson seems to work best with a midfield partner that is always close by to take the ball of him. This is what Cleverley managed to so well early on last season. When Anderson plays with Carrick he gets closed down and finds himself 20 yards away from his midfield partner with nobody to pass it to in order to keep possession. We might get by playing like this, but I just don't feel we're going to get the best out of some of our players.

Tbh I can't name specific players but I know Carrick has been able to push higher, but the main point is that with a variety of different partners he's manager to form good partnerships and play individually well. I find this idea that Ando and Clev can only play with mobile players odd, if they only can play well with a certain type of player that's a fault on their half.

As has been said many times as fluid as that partnership is it has also looked very open and crucially has still only been seen a handful or times and yet to be tested against a strong team. I would expect that if they play the way they did against a top team they would have a fair few problems.

Ando has played well with Hargreaves, Carrick, Scholes and Fletcher before, all different to Clev. His issue is that if the game isn't open and he doesn't have space than he gets impatient and sloppy. He tries to force the issue. Not to mention his stamina/concentration issues. Clev has shown that he's still too gung-ho. The problem with him and Carrick against Southampton is that half the time he wasn't even in the middle.

 

[Bross]

That's very true of the Scholes-Carrick partnership, but what has Carrick done to dispel this myth when paired with other players? He's never really played that well with Anderson, yet as soon as Anderson got paired with Cleverley it suddenly looked good. Further to my last post, Anderson seems to work best with a midfield partner that is always close by to take the ball of him. This is what Cleverley managed to so well early on last season. When Anderson plays with Carrick he gets closed down and finds himself 20 yards away from his midfield partner with nobody to pass it to in order to keep possession. We might get by playing like this, but I just don't feel we're going to get the best out of some of our players.

Just play a midfield 3 without Scholes then. Problem solved. Bring on Scholes if we need stability after taking the lead or if Cleverley / Ando has a shit day.

A midfield 2 with Cleverley and Anderson is a disaster, however refreshingly attack-minded it might be when it works.

I think Carrick played really well the first 15-20 minutes, threading forward passes to Kagawa and actually following him and running into space himself afterwards for the next pass. Later in the game and especially in the second half (the little I could see of it as my stream sucked) he reverted to the sideways passing though, for unknown reasons. I wish Carrick would play like he did in the opening minutes today more often. Or, more specifically, I would like us to field a team that allows him to do so. I think that contrary to popular belief, we dont need a creative midfielder, but a proper old-school holding midfielder that could partner Carrick so he could get freedom to go forward - hes clearly capable of this and is one of our best short range passers.

 

[pocco]

Did you watch Dortmund last year? Watch how many times they got crosses in for Lewandowski. Have a look at their right wing - Blaszczykowski and Piszczek don't play much differently to Valencia and Rafael. They love getting their crosses in, Kuba constantly darted straight for the byline. Valencia's more likely to whip it in low or get to the byline and cut it back than he is to float a cross in, and when he does decide to float it Van Persie will get goals in the air. You don't have to have 11 players all playing in the exact same way, having Valencia there for that bit of variety is a great thing to have. That was the great thing about Dortmund too, they had Kuba stretching the opposition with his pace and direct running, Lewandowski offering a more direct threat and then Gotze, Gundogan and Kagawa playing the tippy-tappy football. There was plenty of variety to their play, and a very varied attacking quartet in terms of individual skillsets.

We scored from Kagawa playing it through the middle, created a couple of great chances with Van Persie/Kagawa and Kagawa/Nani linking up in tight areas in and around the box, and we slipped Chicharito through on goal with cutting passes...and that variety is somehow turned into a criticism. More than that, that variety of play is somehow completely ignored and we're called predictable...

Kagawa and Van Persie have only been here a few weeks, of course we're more comfortable giving it to a player who has been here for over three years and is just after winning fans' and players' player of the year after he consistently won us game after game at the back end of last season. It's easy to give it to Valencia because 9 times out of 10 he'll do exactly what's asked of him, and because the whole team knows what he's going to do...over time the team will become more comfortable with Kagawa and Van Persie and we will play through the centre more, but having Valencia out there doing his thing will never be a problem.

Didn't watch them as much last season as I did the year before. I'm not arguing that Dortmund didn't cross the ball or that Kagawa hasn't played in that sort of system, but I do know that Dortmund could play to Kagawa's strengths. With time and certain players around him, he could really shine here. You acknowledged yourself that Nani was one of the only one's that looked on his wavelength. Kagawa needs these players around him, including midfielders that are on his wavelength too.

Welbeck, Nani and Cleverley are three players that seem on a wavelength with eachother, so I'd have thought it's going to be obvious in the long run that Kagawa will fit in with these players better. I wouldn't say Kagawa is necessarily a great individual player, but paired with the right players, he will look great, he'll make them look great and we'll play great.

 

[pocco]

Just play a midfield 3 without Scholes then. Problem solved. Bring on Scholes if we need stability after taking the lead or if Cleverley / Ando has a shit day.

A midfield 2 with Cleverley and Anderson is a disaster, however refreshingly attack-minded it might be when it works.

I think Carrick played really well the first 15-20 minutes, threading forward passes to Kagawa and actually following him and running into space himself afterwards for the next pass. Later in the game and especially in the second half (the little I could see of it as my stream sucked) he reverted to the sideways passing though, for unknown reasons. I wish Carrick would play like he did in the opening minutes today more often. Or, more specifically, I would like us to field a team that allows him to do so. I think that contrary to popular belief, we dont need a creative midfielder, but a proper old-school holding midfielder that could partner Carrick so he could get freedom to go forward - hes clearly capable of this and is one of our best short range passers.

I think all our midfielders are more suited to playing in a three, though we just don't play that system and will struggle to do so since we've just bought Kagawa and we already have Rooney.

I know that Anderson-Cleverley is a flawed pairing in the middle, but my point is more about the type of players they are and why they (almost) work together. It'd be naive to say that we don't put any thought into who plays well together, but I do often wonder. I can slowly see this edging towards a discussion on our midfield, which I can't be bothered having right now, but this does need sorting out in the long run. We just don't have many solid partnerships around the field at the moment, apart from maybe Ferdinand/Vidic.

 

[ghaliboy]

Valencia as poor as he was tonight isn't erratic at all at crossing, that's bollocks.

It's not really that he's erratic it's that we don't have big options for the cross. In reality we have Van Persie who's not going to scrap a header and Rooney who's not going to outleap many defenders. Hernandez is clinical on the short range tap in but when he has to beat a man 1on1 iwth the head to put the ball in the net it's not playing to his strengths.

Sometimes I wish we'd scrap all other avenues into the box and concentrate on getting to the 6 yard box ASAP for the low driven cross in behind because lofting anything is pretty pointless most of hte time and from most of the positions that Valencia crosses from.

I agree though we are often giving the ball to Nani and Valencia at the moment with too much to do.

 

[Bebe]

First time I haven't agreed with this thread being bumped. We had problems today but they were mostly sloppy individual errors rather than a problem with the team as a whole. Even Scholes was doing it.

I do somewhat agree with whoever mentioned that when Scholes has the ball, everyone seems to stand around waiting for him to do something brilliant. Which isn't actually the worst plan, but it is predictable as feck. The main culprit in this is Carrick, he never seems to make a forward run when Scholes has the ball. Possibly because he knows Scholes is utterly useless defensively. On the rare occasion he chooses to go forward though, good things happen.

 

[noodlehair]

I don't think it's fair how Carrick gets shoehorned in to our midfield not being mobile enough or that he can't play with Clev or mobile players. During his time here he's partnered a variety of players with different styles very well. The issue is Scholes. Scholes will push up occassionally or when we're really dominating but the majority of the time he sits back and tried to orchestatrate. The problem with that is that he can't play as the holding player, nor really cover his partner, so the majority of the time, his partner, i.e. Carrick also has to drop deep. If he doesn't drop as well then we'd be even more exposed to counters through the middle.

This isn't such an issue but it allows other teams to push up high on us. The problem with this is that then we won't change out style and still want our wingers to stay wide. This puts a lot more pressure on the midfielders as they've got big gaps between them and the wingers which really reduces all their passing options. I've said before but look at all the teams that play a short passing game and the common theme is that you have a lot of players within a few yards of each other. For us we have the midfield and defence and then massive gaps to the wingers and strikers.

If Scholes is going to play these sort of games then although he probably won't be as sloppy as today he will still have issues and we either need to recognize this and play more narrow or take him out of these games. But like I said it's not Carricks fault, if he had/has a partner that can actually cover for him he could push up more and having a more physically able partner would also allow the midfield to push up more in general. Issue is that Clev has shown that whilst he's a hard worker he can be far too eager to break forward, leaving big gaps.

But most the problems today were due to sloppyness particularly Scholes and Valencia. When we settled down we opened them up at will and created some great stuff. I think we have some issues which we've had for a while that I'd hoped we would have addressed but we really aren't that bad.

I agree with most of that.

Carrick can definitely play a more mobile and dynamic game. He's done it before for us...he had a spell just last season running up to Christmas where he was superb at it and probably our best player for 4-5 games in a row playing this way.

He needs to have the Scholes blanket taken away from him. The whole team does. When he's in the team they just pass to him by default, and there's zero penetration. Carrick stops even showing for the ball half the time.

Kagawa was trying to link up play last night and just being ignored time and again because the easy ball back to Scholes was always on.

I know Scholes is a genius, but you can't base your entire attacking game around a 37 year old who's legs have blatantly gone, and who actually quite often goes entire games these days without playing a single penetrating attacking pass (balls out to the winger which result in the winger having to beat his fullback to put a cross in, aren't penetrating passes).

He should be a luxury option, for situations like the Southampton game, wher he can come in and actually be a game changer. The way we're using him is instead turning us into the biggest waste of assembled talent in sport.

 

[Sir A1ex]

noods I honestly think you've got to the point where you're so obsessed with this zombie passing thing that you're not actually seeing it when we play well.

This sums it up. The idea that (amongst other things that weren't so good) we didn't make a lot of great runs and defence wrecking passes yesterday is bizarre.
I'd love to see some stats on the number of times one of our men was played in behind the defence compared to whatever golden age Noods is remembering.

 

[togg]

I've said it before, but Scholes should never start these types of games, or any games for that matter. His strength these days is coming on during the second half when the opposition tire. Its at this time where he is at his most effective, simply because as the tempo slows, he gets more time on the ball and has more time to orchestrate things. He's a player now who needs that extra second or two to execute his undoubted vision.

Having said that...there is no doubt that last night he definitely did have an off day generally!!

 

[noodlehair]

This sums it up. The idea that (amongst other things that weren't so good) we didn't make a lot of great runs and defence wrecking passes yesterday is bizarre.
I'd love to see some stats on the number of times one of our men was played in behind the defence compared to whatever golden age Noods is remembering.

There's no golden age...there's just pretty much everything I'm old enough to remember apart from this January onwards.

The only other time we were as static as this was when we had a half fit Keane and Phil Neville both playing as holding midfielders, and even then we'd use Scholes in Kagawa's role to at least link the forward play properly. Instead of putting Kagawa there and then just ignoring him.

Do you think last night was a good performance? Do you think Galatasaray were a good or particularly well disciplined team?

 

[Sultan]

During SAF's reign it's not been a uncommon theme to concede midfield. However, we've generally had breathtaking pace on the wings and killed teams on the counter. It's now become extremely rare we see these attacks these days. When the wingers have off days, Noods is pretty much spot on.

Edited:

 

[Sultan]

I'm still not convinced 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 is in the clubs DNA. At least not until Scholes, Giggs, and SAF are still around.

 

[Sultan]

What's the point playing with 2 wingers and 2 extremely attacking full backs without a target man? RvP and Kagawa are not poachers or particularly get on the end of crosses.

 

[Godfather]

What's the point playing with 2 wingers and 2 extremely attacking full back without a target man? RvP and Kagawa are not poachers or particularly get on the end of crosses.

We shouldn't have bought them then. I'd so much rather see us changing the way we play than convert those two into players they aren't just to fit them into our system

 

[togg]

During SAF's reign it's not been a uncommon theme to concede midfield. However, we've generally had breathtaking pace on the wings and killed teams on the counter. It's now become extremely rare we see these attacks these days. When the wingers have off days, Noods is pretty much spot on.

This is very true. It was so often played out by the back four to the wingers who stormed down the field effectively bypassing the midfield and with the opposition players too far up the field leaving great space up front our counter attacking was lethal. However these days we seem to pass to the wingers more often from a higher up midfield position when the oppostion is mostly already back...this destroys any pace the wingers could administer and also tends to make it much harder for them to get into positions of space in order for them to more accurately pick out targeted cross.

 

[Sultan]

We shouldn't have bought them then. I'd so much rather see us changing the way we play than convert those two into players they aren't just to fit them into our system

They'll be wonderful players once paired with either Rooney, Welbeck or Hernandez. They've hardly played together.

 

[noodlehair]

What's the point playing with 2 wingers and 2 extremely attacking full back without a target man? RvP and Kagawa are not poachers or particularly get on the end of crosses.

I presumed we'd bought Kagawa to play through the middle along the floor...but then we pick him in a team with Scholes and carrick in midfield who just sit and knock the ball out wide every single time. Even though we have Cleverley and Anderson, who are both players who's strength is driving through the middle of the pitch, rested from the weekend and sitting on the bench.

We have good enough players to play through the middle of the pitch without losing any threat out wide...we just seem to like clinging to the Scholes comfort blanket instead. He's still a useful player, but he should be the one adapting to the rest of the team, or being used when we need to change our gameplan...not vice versa. It's destroying any tempo in our game.

We also supposedly discarded Berbatov because we wante dto play with more tempo through the middle...the way we've played since January he'd actually be a better fit than any of the strikers we have.

 

[Sultan]

Yesterday Kagawa and RvP were having to drift to the wings to look for the ball. Leaving the penalty area void of any attackers.

 

[togg]

Surely Ferguson and Phelan can see all this. What is their plan for the way we play? RVP is not known for his dexterity in the air and yet we seemed to play as though we had a Joe Jordan up front...desperately putting it wide in order to field as many crosses in as possible

 

[Sir A1ex]

Instead of putting Kagawa there and then just ignoring him

I don't understand this "Kagawa never got the ball" thing. I saw him with the ball at his feet plenty... if he never got any chance to show what he could do, why is he being rated so highly in MOTM threads etc?

I'll accept the RVP didn't get much service, but Kagawa wasn't isolated.

Do you think last night was a good performance?

As I've said, to a point, yes. It had its obvious flaws, but ssmzp was least amongst them.
To be clear, I can see how the thread started - there ahve been plenty of matches i which we have played like that. But claiming last night was one shows that you've just become obsessed and are ignoring the evidence of your own eyes.

Do you think Galatasaray were a good or particularly well disciplined team?

No, they were pretty weak defensively, and we rightly made the most of that to open them up pleny of times. But they aren't total mugs and it still takes some very good play to expose their weaknesses.

Naybe against a tighter, more disciplined team, maybe we would have run out of ideas and ssmzp would have raised its ugly head. But fortunately that wasn't the case last night.

You really can't use the fact that the opposition weren't great defensively, allowing us to get a lot of quality, fast attacking play in, to claim that we didn't get a lot of quality, fast attacking play in. You just can't!

 

[Ash_G]

I agree with most of that.

Carrick can definitely play a more mobile and dynamic game. He's done it before for us...he had a spell just last season running up to Christmas where he was superb at it and probably our best player for 4-5 games in a row playing this way.

He needs to have the Scholes blanket taken away from him. The whole team does. When he's in the team they just pass to him by default, and there's zero penetration. Carrick stops even showing for the ball half the time.

Kagawa was trying to link up play last night and just being ignored time and again because the easy ball back to Scholes was always on.

I know Scholes is a genius, but you can't base your entire attacking game around a 37 year old who's legs have blatantly gone, and who actually quite often goes entire games these days without playing a single penetrating attacking pass (balls out to the winger which result in the winger having to beat his fullback to put a cross in, aren't penetrating passes).

He should be a luxury option, for situations like the Southampton game, wher he can come in and actually be a game changer. The way we're using him is instead turning us into the biggest waste of assembled talent in sport.

I don't think Carrick relies on Scholes as much as you say and him not showing the ball is definitely not true it wasn't true against Wigan and it wasn't true yesterday. I agree in the past Carrick can be accused of letting his partner take charge too often whether it was Scholes or Fletcher but for a while now Carrick has shown he's willing to impose himself and has looked to get forward more even if it's taking a risk.

Whilst I wouldn't go as extreme in your assessment of what Scholes does to the team in these games I agree that we need to use him better. It's been like this for years. Fergie says he knows how to use him and then plays him either in a row of games which he can't handle or brings him in for these tough games where the opposition won't give him time and he doesn't either adapt the tactics to accomodate him or take him off if he's struggling. That Everton game fair enough he started but he was so lucky not to get sent off and that was Fergie's fault for leaving him on.

We do need to use him better and save him for games where we know the opposition will stand off.

On the other points beig made about RVP/Kagawa not thriving on wingers, well Rooney has managed to thrive on that sort of play, don't see why RVP is different. We don't just lump the ball in, Valencia's strong point is that he generally gets to the byline and fizzes a ball across, that's where the physical aspects of the strikers means less and their intelligence and movement more. Nani can do the same though more with drag back, it's rare that they will just lump the ball in.

Thing is having width and using passing through the middle isn't a choice and I think it's a little bit sad that some of you seem to want to do away with the wide play, that's a defining characteristic of United and one of the things that makes us different to other top teams. Adding Kagawa, Clev etc gives us an extra dimension to be able to attack through the middle more but it doesn't mean we have to sacrifice our wing play, we just have to adapt. And it's coming, they just need more time. We played some great stuff yesterday and tore them apart at will when we got on the ball. Had Valencia not had such a poor night he could have put in a lot of dangerous crosses. Nani set up a load of chances working really well with Kagawa.

It's just gonna take time for it all to gel. I'm hoping that we can bring in Clev/Ando next to Carrick and they show a greater maturity. It's the last piece of the puzzle that should give us more variety in the middle.

 

[noodlehair]

I don't understand this "Kagawa never got the ball" thing. I saw him with the ball at his feet plenty... if he never got any chance to show what he could do, why is he being rated so highly in MOTM threads etc?

I'll accept the RVP didn't get much service, but Kagawa wasn't isolated.

He was isolated a lot though. He seemed to be miles from our midfield at times, and other times a forward pass to him moving or in a good position was ignored to play a safe ball back to Scholes. The point is, we were trying to play through Scholes when we should be playing through and off of Kagawa. That's why he's there.

ssmzp

Don't do that

As I've said, to a point, yes. It had its obvious flaws, but ssmzp was least amongst them.
To be clear, I can see how the thread started - there ahve been plenty of matches i which we have played like that. But claiming last night was one shows that you've just become obsessed and are ignoring the evidence of your own eyes.

What ignoring the evidence? Last night I saw the same thing Sultan said he saw...we were playing the ball out wide all the time instead of through the middle, despite it being completely unsuited to our forward players, and Galatasaray being extremely weak defensively through the middle of the pitch. We don't even play the ball in behind out wide. It's just a ball to the winger's feet every single time.

No, they were pretty weak defensively, and we rightly made the most of that to open them up pleny of times. But they aren't total mugs and it still takes some very good play to expose their weaknesses.

Naybe against a tighter, more disciplined team, maybe we would have run out of ideas and ssmzp would have raised its ugly head. But fortunately that wasn't the case last night.

You really can't use the fact that the opposition weren't great defensively, allowing us to get a lot of quality, fast attacking play in, to claim that we didn't get a lot of quality, fast attacking play in. You just can't!

Most of this quality, fast attacking play wa sjust one person running in a straight line towards their goal and then us passing them the ball, rather than well orchestrated, fast attacking play. THere were some decent moments...usually when Kagawa actually managed to force himself into the game. Nothing close to something resembling a decent attacking performance.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Don't do that.

Hey, it's your phrase. I'm not gonig to type it out every time!

Most of this quality, fast attacking play wa sjust one person running in a straight line towards their goal and then us passing them the ball, rather than well orchestrated, fast attacking play.

OK each to their own. Do you include the goal in the former or the latter?

I'd certainly go for the latter, and there were several other moves (Nani to Evra in the 2nd half being a classic example) of similar quality.
An accurate final pass* / decent finish or two, and we'd have had 3 or 4 goals, and this thread would stll say "last updated 2nd September".

*and I do mean pass, not cross, as contrary to what you saw, many of these moves involved playing people in inside the penalty area, not on the wing.

 

[noodlehair]

The goal was a combination of decent attacking football and bizarrely horrific defending (why did they just sort of pretend Carrick wasn't there?)...but that was in the first ten minutes when we were actually looking fairly lively. I would have thought the ease of it would have maybe helped us to carry on trying to go through the middle too, but no.

 

[apotheosis]

The goal was a combination of decent attacking football and bizarrely horrific defending (why did they just sort of pretend Carrick wasn't there?)...but that was in the first ten minutes when we were actually looking fairly lively. I would have thought the ease of it would have maybe helped us to carry on trying to go through the middle too, but no.

Kagawa struggles in our team for 2 reasons imo.

1. The ball is constantly played out wide as Sultan already suggested.
2. We have no-one making any runs for him to pick out when he does get the ball. RVP is usually in the box on his own, but for me in our set up, we need the likes of Nani to make occasional diagonal runs from wide areas into the box, to give Kagawa options to pass to. That is what he is good at, and we nullify that part of his game, due to playing wingers too wide, and having no runners from midfield.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Here's an interesting stat for the "everything was played out wide, nothing through the middle" brigade:

The official stats give us 29 deliveries or solo runs into the final third, against Gala's 37. Of these, 17 of ours were into the penalty area (which last time I checked was roughly in the middle) against 6 of Gala's - that's 59% against 16%.

So which team was aimlessly pushing the ball wide, and which was going direct?

 

[pocco]

We really do need to decide where we are going with this team as everything is so uncoordinated at the minute. I agree with Sultan in that this 451/433 is really not working, but we now have Kagawa and we need to play to fit the system. We seem to have changed formation to be strong through the middle with RVP hunting chances in the box, but we still want to play our 442 style of football.

I know its early days, but I just hope this is something that we are going to sort out.

 

[noodlehair]

Maybe I just imagined all those crosses Valencia put in to no one after having to get by the fullback on his own.

 

[Sir A1ex]

We really do need to decide where we are going with this team as everything is so uncoordinated at the minute.

No we don't. Fergie and his staff do, and I've got a sneaking suspicion they may already have this task covered off.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Maybe I just imagined all those crosses Valencia put in to no one after having to get by the fullback on his own.

Valencia's crossing was woeful, no doubt. But the fact that he got down the wing quite a few times doesn't detract fromt he fact that we aslo had a lot of more direct play throught the middle.

In fact, there were a two or three times when Valencia was put through in or around the right hand side of the box and the whole problem with his delivery was he acted like he was out wide on the wing and launched a high cross that cleared everybody, when he should have been just pinging another short pass to feet to create a great goal scoring opportunity.

 

[apotheosis]

Here's an interesting stat for the "everything was played out wide, nothing through the middle" brigade:

The official stats give us 29 deliveries or solo runs into the final third, against Gala's 37. Of these, 17 of ours were into the penalty area (which last time I checked was roughly in the middle) against 6 of Gala's - that's 59% against 16%.

So which team was aimlessly pushing the ball wide, and which was going direct?

The point is, which you seem to have missed, is that Gala played the ball where there was space. We play the ball continually out wide, because we have very few options through the middle. Even when we break through the middle we end up playing the ball wide and it often still culminates in a cross!

We don't have midfield runners, and the wingers rarely make runs into the box off the ball. That leaves only RVP as a regular target. Which means the ball gets played about the middle, until it's inevitable passage out wide and the equally inevitable ball into the box.

We have bought Kagawa with no clue whatsoever how to use him. We have new players for a new system, but unfortunately we still have the old mentality of a ball out wide is the best way for us to stretch teams.

Kagawa's contribution atm is restricted to dropping deep to lay a pass from either Scholes or Carrick straight back to them, before moving back up the pitch while the ball goes out wide. We need to move from 2 wingers if we want to address this. Far more movement is needed from wide areas into the centre if we are to best utilise Kagawa's ability to open teams up.

 

[Sir A1ex]

The point is, which you seem to have missed, is that Gala played the ball where there was space. We play the ball continually out wide, because we have very few options through the middle.

That makes no sense. Yes, the stats show that Gala probably did pass it where there was space - ie out wide. Make your mind up over which you want us to do - play it into a crowded midfield, or more open wide areas.

Kagawa's contribution atm is restricted to dropping deep to lay a pass from either Scholes or Carrick straight back to them, before moving back up the pitch while the ball goes out wide.

Fair enough.

I was impressed by that move in which Ji Sung Park danced into the box between three defenders only to have the ball just nicked off his toes as he shot, in what on first view looked like a potential penalty shout. Great ball into the box for Carrick's goal too. He should teach Kagawa both these skills.

 

[apotheosis]

No we don't. Fergie and his staff do, and I've got a sneaking suspicion they may already have this task covered off.

Yes we do, and i don't know where you are getting any sneaky suspicions from that anything is getting sorted. This team looks like it is going nowhere. We have players we cannot use properly because we insist on playing this ridiculously outdated 4-4-2 system, that clearly does not work in Europe.

I predicted in the summer that SAF wanted to change the way the team played, due to the type of players he was after. But there does not seem to be any difference in the way the team is being coached. We are still disjointed without the ball, and far too rigid in our set up despite having players capable of playing with more imagination and movement.

I have to blame the coaching im afraid, we were all over the place last season in Europe, and i see nothing this year to give me confidence that those issues have been addressed. We were lucky to get a win last night imo. Gala had far too may chances from average pieces of play. Wigan apart, the same issues have haunted us in the PL too so far.

 

[pocco]

No we don't. Fergie and his staff do, and I've got a sneaking suspicion they may already have this task covered off.

You knew what I meant by 'we'. We'll see, but I don't think we've been at our best for a long time now.

 

[Sir A1ex]

You knew what I meant by 'we'. We'll see, but I don't think we've been at our best for a long time now.

I knew what you meant, but I think you can also see the point I'm making, no?

Edit: At least you understood what I posted, unlike the apotheosis of irrationality.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Yes we do, and i don't know where you are getting any sneaky suspicions from that anything is getting sorted. This team looks like it is going nowhere. We have players we cannot use properly because we insist on playing this ridiculously outdated 4-4-2 system, that clearly does not work in Europe.

I predicted in the summer that SAF wanted to change the way the team played, due to the type of players he was after. But there does not seem to be any difference in the way the team is being coached. We are still disjointed without the ball, and far too rigid in our set up despite having players capable of playing with more imagination and movement.

I have to blame the coaching im afraid, we were all over the place last season in Europe, and i see nothing this year to give me confidence that those issues have been addressed. We were lucky to get a win last night imo. Gala had far too may chances from average pieces of play. Wigan apart, the same issues have haunted us in the PL too so far.

I think at the point of this ridiculous, myopic, spoilt-child-like rant, I will take my leave of this thread.

You go on with your arm-chair analysis of how clueless our players and coaching staff are, and I in turn will retain just a modicum of faith that they may have an inkling how to do their jobs.

 

[devilish]

What's the point playing with 2 wingers and 2 extremely attacking full backs without a target man? RvP and Kagawa are not poachers or particularly get on the end of crosses.

We won our last cl campaign with a 4-2-3-1 formation. Our problem is that we refuse to acknowledge the cm problem.

 

[apotheosis]

That makes no sense. Yes, the stats show that Gala probably did pass it where there was space - ie out wide. Make your mind up over which you want us to do - play it into a crowded midfield, or more open wide areas.

Gala created the space with their runs and then passed it into those areas.

We pass the ball out wide because there is no space created in the middle due to the lack of movement. I want us to create space in both areas, and not just pass it out wide due to lack of other options. We have the players, but they have been 4-4-2ed for so long, that playing with unrestricted movement and imagination seems alien to them. It has to be coached and practiced, it will not happen just by buying different players to what we have. They all have to be coached into an effective style of playing. We look all over the place atm without the ball.

Fair enough.

I was impressed by that move in which Ji Sung Park danced into the box between three defenders only to have the ball just nicked off his toes as he shot, in what on first view looked like a potential penalty shout. Great ball into the box for Carrick's goal too. He should teach Kagawa both these skills.

Are you trying to turn missing the point into an art form. You have just totally backed up my point, although unwittingly it seems!

The one time we had movement from the midfield, we see what Kagawa can do with it, and he creates a goal from it. That is my whole point! How often did it happen after that?

Had we done more of that for the rest of the game, we would surely have enjoyed similar opportunities. But what did we see instead? That's right Schole sand Carrick playing it up to Kagawa, only to recieve it straight back, before playing it out wide. That was the same we saw at Saints, it didn't work then either funnily enough.