That Fergie & co. will be onto it? Yes, I'm sure they are. Well, I'm sure he has some sort of plan going forward,because this can't be it. I just fear he'll try and make Kagawa somehow fit into our current system which is based largely on wing-play, as opposed to doing what we all thought he'd do and try to put players around Kagawa that want to play his quick passing moves that he's known for.
Static, slow motion zombie passing
- Thread starter noodlehair
- Start date
That Fergie & co. will be onto it? Yes, I'm sure they are. Well, I'm sure he has some sort of plan going forward,because this can't be it. I just fear he'll try and make Kagawa somehow fit into our current system which is based largely on wing-play, as opposed to doing what we all thought he'd do and try to put players around Kagawa that want to play his quick passing moves that he's known for.
I think at the point of this ridiculous, myopic, spoilt-child-like rant, I will take my leave of this thread.
You go on with your arm-chair analysis of how clueless our players and coaching staff are, and I in turn will retain just a modicum of faith that they may have an inkling how to do their jobs.
So not actually believing what you are watching is the way to go? In favour of believing that everything is hunky dory despite our worst European campaign for years last season, and yet another struggle against average opposition already this season. That was a strong team we played last night, as strong as we could muster, yet we struggled to create chances ourselves and struggled even more preventing Gala having any.
I will believe SAF and his staff are doing something about it when i see some evidence of it. All the problems that plagued last seasons European form are still present, and despite our new set up, the extra man in midfield has not helped us stop the opponent creating chances.
So pardon me for intefering on your blind faith, but i just say what i see. Would you rather i lie to make you feel better?
This is the biggest mystery for me. So much of our play goes wide, yet we've not had an attacker with any aerial dominance since arguably Ruud. I can't help but thinking that someone like Llorente would absolutely crush it playing in this team.
That said we'll certainly improve as the season progresses. I don't think this squad has learnt how to play with Kagawa yet, but they will. I can see us handing out a lot of pastings this season.
Exactly. Furthermore we refuse to make accommodations for it either. If you have a weak area then you employ tactics to help cover that area as best you can. We don't, we just play exactly the same way we would had we no problems at all.
That is our weakness atm, and it is why the European teams especially, are causing us so many problems when we play them.
You ruin any good points you make by leaning too far towards the negative all the time. Not sure if its an attempt to be humerous, but reading your posts I can't help but think of some fan standing on the terraces at a struggling Conference team, or even over the park, watching a bunch of no-hopers.
We haven't gelled yet. We'll get better. There are people at United seeing all of the same little problems we all see. The difference is they know how to fix them.
Sorry, just had to pop back in to pass on these fine gifs of last night's static, slow motion zombie passing for anybody who didn't catch them in the other thread... if only somebody would make some runs, and play some balls into those people who do make them:
While I agree with many of the criticisms being put forward, I don't think it was as bad a performance as many are saying. It will take time before the team gels. I also don't agree that the manager doesn't have a plan because if you look at the type of wide players we were in for over the summer (Lucas; Hazard), SAF has already identified the problem that our wingers don't link enough with the midfield. Besides, we have Ashley Young who does this very well for both England and United.
In midfield, we do need to find a solution very soon because there's definitely something missing there. But again, we already have a variety of quality players on our books, it's more about finding a combination that gives us the defensive solidity and attacking impetus we need. Too bad Anderson keeps getting injured because I think if he was fit more consistently, he could build a decent partnership with Kagawa and Carrick. The problem, though, is that this will take time and we will probably have more frustrating games while the manager tries the options out.
This season won't be good for those fans with heart diseases.
In midfield, we do need to find a solution very soon because there's definitely something missing there. But again, we already have a variety of quality players on our books, it's more about finding a combination that gives us the defensive solidity and attacking impetus we need. Too bad Anderson keeps getting injured because I think if he was fit more consistently, he could build a decent partnership with Kagawa and Carrick. The problem, though, is that this will take time and we will probably have more frustrating games while the manager tries the options out.
This season won't be good for those fans with heart diseases.
From the start this thread seemed an exercise in analysing a really poor performance from us and then isolating the things we did badly and making them out to be massive underlying issues. I think other aspects of our performances are now being lumped in to bolster the point, which they don't.
IMHO, of course.
IMHO, of course.
I definitely think noodle has a point about this thing, and it obviously comes from the central midfield issue.
But I didn't think it was too bad last night, in fact I felt it was a fine attacking performance which should have yielded 4-5 goals.
But I didn't think it was too bad last night, in fact I felt it was a fine attacking performance which should have yielded 4-5 goals.
Sorry, just had to pop back in to pass on these fine gifs of last night's static, slow motion zombie passing for anybody who didn't catch them in the other thread... if only somebody would make some runs, and play some balls into those people who do make them:
Great gifs there. Shows just how influential Kagawa is in our forward play at the moment that he's involved in all those moves.
We were the same against Wigan in the first half. In fact it only really changed after we scored and they just crumbled.
The first half against Fulham was good. We passed and moved and created the space to play into, and in the end they just couldn't cope. Don't think it's any coincidence that this is when we had Cleverley and Anderson in midfield. Players who aren't used to the "give it to Scholes" gameplan and look to create space for themselves instead.
I like the gifs above, because I think they sort of prove the point. Over half of them seem to be Kagawa trying to bundle through the centre of the opposition defence on his own. The ball comes from wide and the midfield is nowhere to be seen in any of them barring the goal.
Same here, hardly any of it applies.
How do you know they are fixing them?
It's been the same in nearly every game since January, and nothing has happened to suggest we've even clocked on that it's a problem.
We had Cleverley and Anderson on the bench last night. The two best suited players we have to get us moving the ball effectively through the middle. Neither had played in over a week, unlike Scholes who spent the first half of the Wigan game being the only player anyone on our team other than himself passed to.
We seem to be happy to play this way. In fact we've become reliant on it.
Exactly. There was plenty wrong with last night's performance, but a thread entitled static, slow motion zombie passing is an utterly innappropriate place to discuss them.
Noodles has been spot on about this whole zombie passing. However, I don't think yesterday was an example of it. We zipped it around at a good tempo yesterday but we were extremely porous in midfield and our lack of pressing really hurt us once again. We just keep sitting and watching not so great teams pop the ball around for fun making them look better than they are in the process. It's a bit like FIFA where every opposition can keep the ball well.
You just don't quite catch on do you? We are highlighting what we are capable of, but the system restricts us from doing more often. All you have done is shown what we are saying is true. When the runs are made we look the business going forward because we have the quality.
The argument is the way the team sets up with 2 wingers and the midfield of Carrick and Scholes it limits how often we can do this. Those gifs would suggest we had Gala's measure, would'nt you agree? Yet we struggled throughout the game, how do you explain that if there are no problems and everything is just smashing?
My explanation is those instances are too few and far between. You have found 7 examples of good play in 90mins against an average team at OT. Not considering how many times they opened us up on the counter. You cannot simply continue ignore our dodgy general level of performance in Europe.
Any chance of some gifs showing how many times the ball is shifted out wide to Valencia who then crosses the ball into nobody due to lack of other options? Thought not, we would probably get a 'canee take the strain' message!
Agreed, but it's still connected though. Better possession means less opportunity to be exposed. I thought that was supposed to be our justification for not buying a midfielder, the notion that more bodies in central areas would negate the need somewhat, by giving us more control due to the greater numbers.
Unfortunately, it hasn't turned out that way as yet. There is not enough interchangeable movement and the midfield in general doesn't get forward, which means we need the wingers to make diagonal runs into the box on occasion, to prevent RVP being our only threat/option in the box.
You will get no arguments from me on the ineffectiveness of our defending as a unit without the ball. We have struggled in that regard since the start of last season, and we look no better equipped to prevent our opponents creating chances against us this year, than we were last season.
We have generally been set up to play with two wide men and two midfielders - we spread the ball wide and then cross it in.
We cede control and space in central areas in return for control and numbers out wide. Teams that play narrow leave space out wide but have extra numbers in the middle.
A fair number of teams in Europe play narrow to dictate play in the central areas - this is why at times when teams break it seems they just cut through our middle because we have less numbers there and tactically we have traded control in this area for control out wide.
Now when you have playeres like Kagawa and RVp who have generally played in teams that work the ball through the middle it will take them time to adjust to our play because I don't think SAF is changing this emphasis on wide / wing play.
We cede control and space in central areas in return for control and numbers out wide. Teams that play narrow leave space out wide but have extra numbers in the middle.
A fair number of teams in Europe play narrow to dictate play in the central areas - this is why at times when teams break it seems they just cut through our middle because we have less numbers there and tactically we have traded control in this area for control out wide.
Now when you have playeres like Kagawa and RVp who have generally played in teams that work the ball through the middle it will take them time to adjust to our play because I don't think SAF is changing this emphasis on wide / wing play.
this thread has run its course surely?
When the emphasis is on play out wide you have your fullbacks push up and your wide men stay near the touchline. This leaves the two central midfielders playing close to each other to provide support and the "deep lying striker" dropping off in the hole leaving one striker alone.
When the ball gets crossed into the box the lone striker either makes a front post or back post run with the deeper lying striker hovering around the edge of the D.
The emphasis is then on wide men making touchline runs to the byline - essentially straight running. The midfielders then pushing up in roughly a straight line towards the opposition box. It's all very methodical and regimented.
When the ball gets crossed into the box the lone striker either makes a front post or back post run with the deeper lying striker hovering around the edge of the D.
The emphasis is then on wide men making touchline runs to the byline - essentially straight running. The midfielders then pushing up in roughly a straight line towards the opposition box. It's all very methodical and regimented.
Better possession obviously exposes you less but this whole "zombie passing" notion was never about good/bad possession. It was more about purpose and intensity. We did that for most of the game yesterday. It's just that we weren't all that effective at it as we'd like and many moves broke down due to a lack of execution. That's okay by me. It's when we start playing with the intensty and purpose of a bunch of 50 year olds that this thread applies and it worries me.
Yesterday it was the defensive fragility and lack of pressing that were my biggest concerns.
I don't care too much about possession as Apothesis. I just want us to go back to the days when no matter how much of the ball the opposition has, they can't get through. Our formation is too open nowadays, tighten things up.
Siorry to disappoint, but I haven't spent my day trawling throught the match and making gifs of the best bits... those are just some gifs I found on the web, which demonstrate the point that we were swift and flluid, if too often sloppy yesterday. There were plenty more examples - eg, none of Hernandez's chances are shown there.
I'd say the onus is on you to find them, seeing as you are the one that claims it was happening non-stop all match. Put up 7 of them and we'll call it a draw.
This bit's brilliant btw:
So, the more we play exciting attacknig football, the more we prove your point?
Damn you, I can't get out of this one!
I'll go with my original instinct and leave this thread alone.
So, the more we play exciting attacknig football, the more we prove your point?
Damn you, I can't get out of this one!
I'll go with my original instinct and leave this thread alone.
For someone who is leaving the thread alone, you seem to be remaining quite active in it! No the point is what we do when we play effective attacking football, as opposed to what we do when we are struggling. As i said you highlighted examples of when we did the things conducive for penetrating football, but those are the exception in the majority of games.
We have played one great half against Fulham, hammered a lack lustre Wigan at OT, but in the other games we have struggled due to the lack of the movement and passing you highlighted from last night.
Having a few examples of it does not mean we are doing it all the time. Do you honestly believe those examples you have provided are representative of our play in general?
No i never claimed it happened non stop all match. I said we don't have the ability to regularly create space centrally due to the rigid nature of the system. Which as Noodle suggests is why we go out wide so often, even though we don't really have a wealth of options in the centre when crosses come in.
I would like to see more interchangeability from the 2 wide men coming into central areas, considering we cannot expect too many runs forward into that area from the central 2.
Or are you going to claim that because Carrick made a forward run last night, that would be representative of what we can usually expect from him?
You are taking a couple of examples from last night and using them to dismiss a general point that stands in the majority of our games, that is the issue i am talking about.
Last season we got dominated by average midfields. This season it looks like it may be the same.
We have great strength in depth and RVP and Kag are great additions. That said, we need a better centre midfield OR at least to better cover the cracks.
We have great strength in depth and RVP and Kag are great additions. That said, we need a better centre midfield OR at least to better cover the cracks.
That seems to be all we do which is so outdated predictable and pointless
Good post. I think it's time we moved with the times.
I agree with Commandus, I made a thread on this yesterday.
One can still have 2 wingers, it'll just come at the expense of one striker. A 4-3-3 for example gives us width, solidity in the middle, and the ability to thrust through to the center.
One can still have 2 wingers, it'll just come at the expense of one striker. A 4-3-3 for example gives us width, solidity in the middle, and the ability to thrust through to the center.
Big problem for me is a lack of mobility in the middle of the park. No midfield runners running past the strikers or coming late into the box from crosses makes us predictable at times. Then we don't have the energy levels with Scholes and Carrick to press when we don't have possession thus allowing teams to enter our half under no pressure at all. We generally have to wait till the opposition lose the ball or their end moves with a shot or a defensive block and we go again 80yards from their goal.
Relying on Scholes is the problem. For all his attacking magnificence he contributes to our slowness when we defend and general lack of mobility in enter midfield.
IMO the last match proved a couple if things 1) That the management/coaches are aware of the problem as it was obvious from the outset that we tried to zip it about playing first time balls. 2) That the midfielders selected aren't the best at playing that sort of game, basically to immobile and their assets are stop the ball look up and play a 40 yard pass. & 3) Opposition teams are now more aware of our weakness and actually have the nerve to play 2 up at OT!
Beautiful, fluid passing moves through both wide and central areas, is what they show.
Beautiful, fluid passing moves through both wide and central areas, is what they show.
Yeah there's an odd thing on here where it's one or the other, no reason you can't do both. We can get better at using kagawa no doubt but that will come with time but we don't need to disgard our wingers. In the midfield we'll get more fluidity once clev/ando properly establish themselves next to carrick.
Exactly i agree completely. Add to that the absence of the wingers occasionally making diagonal runs into the box to support the striker, and our main source of chances is bound to be dependent on balls coming into the box from wide areas.
Yes again. In my view that is happening because players are occupying defensive positions without actually doing much defending. We just cannot seemt to stop our opponents creating chances against us, especially in Europe.
Let's hope Sir A1ex and other posters are right that SAF has highlighted the problem and is currently addressing it. Although i admit personally i have not noticed any change to our defending to really support that notion.
we are look clueless when it comes to wining the ball backs as a team. All we do is hope for a mistake from the opposing team. Against clinical opponents we will pay a heavy price soon.
Exactly as was the case last year. That is what is worrying me Chief, i keep looking for noticable signs that we are addressing the situation, and i can't say i have noticed any.
Beautiful, fluid passing moves through both wide and central areas, is what they show.
The smiley is about as apt as anything you'll ever see. Presented with incontrovertible visual evidence that they're wrong, half the posters on here just pretend it shows something else. Our finishing was poor the other night and our defence remained a little edgy, but apart from that we were really rather good, and against the strongest side we've played so far. And, get this, Nani played really well.