I unfortunately don't agree with Kermode. In particular I think Kylo's internal motivations are really poorly sketched out. TLJ explored his relationship with Luke, but why did he hate Han? Why doesn't he reconnect with Leia? It's weakly written. Driver more than carries it (Kylo is still my favourite part of the movie) because he's a spectacular performer.
Film Star Wars: Episode VIII
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I unfortunately don't agree with Kermode. In particular I think Kylo's internal motivations are really poorly sketched out. TLJ explored his relationship with Luke, but why did he hate Han? Why doesn't he reconnect with Leia? It's weakly written. Driver more than carries it (Kylo is still my favourite part of the movie) because he's a spectacular performer.
I hated the two previous installments, might give this one a go due to the reviews.
Overall
I’m rather disappointed with it. And I’m pretty easy to please. I thoroughly enjoyed the previous two and even find the prequels decent
I think it might be for me the worst Star Wars movie. Saved only by a good final 1/3
I’m rather disappointed with it. And I’m pretty easy to please. I thoroughly enjoyed the previous two and even find the prequels decent
I think it might be for me the worst Star Wars movie. Saved only by a good final 1/3
I've just been to watch it, it's good...I enjoyed it...
Not without its flaws, but it's Star Wars, it's supposed to be a bit cheesy...
Not without its flaws, but it's Star Wars, it's supposed to be a bit cheesy...
i thought Leia was supposed to be killed off in this, they had a perfect opportunity to do that until they somehow made her impervious to the cold vacuum of space and brought her back...they obviously now have to find a way to kill her in the next one (off screen probably) unless they've got something up their sleeve for that...
Porgs weren't nearly as annoying as I thought, basically just there to get kids to buy the teddies. Those caretakers were pointless, and the scene in that pit thing with the hundreds of Reys didn't really work either
The prequels are truly bad, are you sure you're not being harsh?
Pretty sure
Like I said I’m usually very easy to please with stuff in particular Star Wars, hense the reason I have a soft spot for the prequels
I liked all Star Wars films. For me, they were all good but it's just that 4,5 and 6 were terrific.
7 and 8 are even better imo. Really like where they've taken it to.
I took the 100s of Rey segment as her trying to find out if she'll find her answers in the Dark side and she didn't, which cements her to be on the side of the light going forward. It wasn't too long a scene so I was happy enough with it, plus it clears up her stance that much more with Ren still being grey.
The only qualm I have about the film is:
Ren got what he wanted. All older generation Jedis are gone. He doesn't sound like someone who wants domination or complete power. To me it just sounded like he wanted revenge on Luke and didn't want to be Snoke's bitch. I don't really see how he cant co-exist with the Rebels and each just mind their own business. With the other dark side Jedis you know it was because they wanted full power of the Galaxy and I don't much get that vibe from Ren.
I thought the same and when Luke disappeared I definitely thought Leia might go too.
The only thing I can think of is there'll be an explanation in the opening text at the start of the next film and they'll chalk it up to losing Luke and growing old and perhaps have a funeral scene at the start of the next one?
The only thing I can think of is there'll be an explanation in the opening text at the start of the next film and they'll chalk it up to losing Luke and growing old and perhaps have a funeral scene at the start of the next one?
Revenge of the Sith isn't bad. The first 2 were a major disappointment which resulted in people slating revenge of the Sith as well although that was actually quite a good movie. Those lightsaber fights alone are feckin fantastic.
I don't understand how you can say there isn't a narrative in these movies. The Force Awakens, for all its similar beats to the original, is ultimately a story about identity (Rey desperately trying to cling to something thats already lost, Finn coming to terms with who he wants to be compared to what he was raised as, Kylo struggling with the weight of his legacy, Han trying to escape the ghosts of his past and then facing them by the end). Those themes are not only quite different to the ones in A New Hope, but also work to form an extremely strong thematic core.
And this movie built on all of that, solidifying who these characters are. We had a poignant interrogation of what it means to be a hero through Poe's arc, Luke's journey about coming to terms with failure and accepting responsibility, and finally Rey and Ren's duality, as two sides of the light and dark side of the force and the nature of good and evil (Rey as selfless and idealistic, Kylo as selfish and hateful). You can criticise this film aplenty (it certainly has problems) but it also has immense narrative depth.
If you honestly believe the prequels are narratively stronger than these movies, I don't know what to tell you (and I don't mind the prequels for what they are; they were a delight for me growing up). But in truth your complaints smack a little of someone who's hating the movie just to hate it, and ignoring its powerful thematic core. I suppose I can understand you not liking these movies because you don't like the characters; they are extremely character driven, and if you aren't invested in Rey or Kylo Ren then these movies probably won't work for you. Which is a shame, because I love the new characters, and I feel they're the best part of the new trilogy.
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Its not weakly written - the audience are learning a bit more about Kylo and Rey as each film progresses. I'd be less intrigued if I knew what he was all about straight away.
Also you can understand why he hated Han to be honest - Han was never there for him and in his eyes he was sold off to bad people just like Rey was (hence why he feels a connection with her because he finds her past of soul searching quite close to home). He viewed Luke as being just as bad as being palmed off to traders in Jackoo, given Luke tried to end his life and all. And Han/Lea were the ones to allow Luke such guardianship so it makes sense that he wants nothing to do whatsoever with any of them.
The flashback from Luke's eyes gave a good story as how Kylo must have experienced it. He said he saw Kylo as a frightened child (or something along those lines) and that would be the deciding moment where he went from Ben to Ren.
Combine that and the negative influence Snoke was having and his actions make sense from his perspective. Delete the past because nothing positive exists from it - no one has done anything good for him nor Rey so why not let it all go to the shits and start fresh.
The flashback from Luke's eyes gave a good story as how Kylo must have experienced it. He said he saw Kylo as a frightened child (or something along those lines) and that would be the deciding moment where he went from Ben to Ren.
Combine that and the negative influence Snoke was having and his actions make sense from his perspective. Delete the past because nothing positive exists from it - no one has done anything good for him nor Rey so why not let it all go to the shits and start fresh.
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(Spoilering just because some stuff might give away the odd bit)
For me, that was all made clear in TFA - he was manipulated over a period of years by Snoke and has inherited his grandfather's (whose legacy he simultaneously feels bound by and idolises, to the extent he commissioned himself his own intimidating headgear) impetuousness and desire to prove how strong he is. His parents make him feel the "call to the light", making him feel guilt for what he's done (he's a mass murderer at this point, after all), and we saw with Han that he thought killing him would heal that weakness. Instead, it's left him with an even more intimate kind of guilt, to the extent he can't even stand the sight of the Falcon. That's just my interpretation and you might have read the subtext differently, but to me him attempting any kind of reconnection with Leia would be far the more unjustified narratively.
For me, that was all made clear in TFA - he was manipulated over a period of years by Snoke and has inherited his grandfather's (whose legacy he simultaneously feels bound by and idolises, to the extent he commissioned himself his own intimidating headgear) impetuousness and desire to prove how strong he is. His parents make him feel the "call to the light", making him feel guilt for what he's done (he's a mass murderer at this point, after all), and we saw with Han that he thought killing him would heal that weakness. Instead, it's left him with an even more intimate kind of guilt, to the extent he can't even stand the sight of the Falcon. That's just my interpretation and you might have read the subtext differently, but to me him attempting any kind of reconnection with Leia would be far the more unjustified narratively.
On another note, I've just noticed that this now has a lower viewer score on metacritic than Batman v Superman and Justice League
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(Spoilering just because some stuff might give away the odd bit)
For me, that was all made clear in TFA - he was manipulated over a period of years by Snoke and has inherited his grandfather's (whose legacy he simultaneously feels bound by and idolises, to the extent he commissioned himself his own intimidating headgear) impetuousness and desire to prove how strong he is. His parents make him feel the "call to the light", making him feel guilt for what he's done (he's a mass murderer at this point, after all), and we saw with Han that he thought killing him would heal that weakness. Instead, it's left him with an even more intimidate kind of guilt, to the extent he can't even stand the sight of the Falcon. That's just my interpretation and you might have read the subtext differently, but to me him attempting any kind of reconnection with Leia would be far the more unjustified narratively.
On another note, I've just noticed that this now has a lower viewer score on metacritic than Batman v Superman and Justice League
One thing I've learned is to feck all cyber reviews and watch films for ourselves. Too many keyboard warriors writing reviews upset that their theory didn't pan out in the film or poking unnecessary holes in what is ultimately meant to be 2.5 hours of entertainment.
Poorly sketched out? They emphasise the fact that he felt abandoned, cast away to train with Luke (he literally says that to Rey). He hates his parents because he feels they discarded him by sending him off to train with his uncle. Personally I didn't think they even needed to spell that out, it was pretty clearly written between the lines for me. This is even reflected in the previous film, when Leia says to Han "I just should never have sent him away, that's when I lost him".
Go and see it again. I was really conflicted when I walked out the first time. There's a lot of stuff in there that needs time to process and a second viewing to really absorb.
Loved it.
Some bits were a bit shit but when it was good...it was REALLY fecking good.
Going to watch it again between Xmas and New Year.
Some bits were a bit shit but when it was good...it was REALLY fecking good.
Going to watch it again between Xmas and New Year.
I loved it too. If you didn't that's fine, but for me it had something about it that I haven't felt since I saw Empire strikes back as a 5 year old kid when it was originally released.
I've been wanting to get that feeling back from a star wars film for over 35 years and wasn't expecting it from this film at all; so was very pleasantly surprised.
I've been wanting to get that feeling back from a star wars film for over 35 years and wasn't expecting it from this film at all; so was very pleasantly surprised.
anyone seen this in 3D? is it worth it?
Abandonment issues by being sent to train with his uncle the driving force behind the all powerful Sith Lord and heir to Vadar. Jesus christ, am i the only one that thinks not only was it poorly sketched out but was a terrible fecking premise to begin with? It's laughably awful.
Yeah, being sent to train under the greatest Jedi of all time must be heartbreaking.
Nobody tell him that teenage footballers move to foreign lands away from their families every year to join Le Masia etc..
Nobody tell him that teenage footballers move to foreign lands away from their families every year to join Le Masia etc..
I'm just glad I liked a film that mostly everyone else really liked too.
Felt like a loner defending Justice League
@Ramshock I saw in 2D and a couple of scenes were there where I thought damn that mightve been better to watch in 3D
Felt like a loner defending Justice League
@Ramshock I saw in 2D and a couple of scenes were there where I thought damn that mightve been better to watch in 3D
How would you feel if you were sent away from your parents as a kid to train with an uncle you barely knew, and then later found out your parents lied about their connection to someone as formidable and terrible as Darth Vader? Try to think of these characters as people rather than larger than life heroes. Kylo is very flawed. He's bitter, resentful, and selfish. There are people like that all over the world. If you honestly don't find that compelling, I really don't know what to tell you.
Privileged to not be scratching out a living on some shitty desert planet and honored to be being trained into the revered Jedi order by the biggest living legend in the galaxy.
Oh, and understanding that they tried to let me live a somewhat normal childhood until i was old enough to know the terrible family secret.
It wasn't as bad as the previous two, but it wasn't anything to write home about imo. It had more moments that redeemed the movie (as said before- short silence after Anakin executes Dooku/Tragedy of Darth Plagueis/Obi-Wan lamenting failures while Anakin burnt alive/Rebirth of Vader vs. birth of his twins/Order 66 + Williams Music) Everything else was forgettable to bad for me, especially the dialogue, but I get why people defend it as decent. The lightsaber battles in the prequels in general suffer a bit from being overly choreographed but they are nice to watch.
I absolutely loved it! So glad I don't critique things so heavily that I can't enjoy films or football anymore unlike so many reviewers. Each of the plot twists left me stunned yet made important points I think. I saw a lot of parallels between the Force in Star Wars and magic in Harry Potter this time too.
I'm devastated, just came back from the cinema with my brother and we both thought it was dreadful. Happy a lot of you seemed to really enjoy it but, nah, im shocked.
Well, you're a better person than Kylo. But that shouldn't surprise anyone really. He's conflicted, but at no point does he give any indication that he's a good guy. As I said, bitter, resentful, selfish, and dysfunctional. Those are his defining traits. And when you think about it, most villains are extremely dysfunctional people at their core; its a big part of what makes them villains.
If that doesn't work for you, I understand I guess. I feel for you, because its hard to really enjoy this trilogy if Kylo Ren doesn't work for you as a character. I hope you find future Star Wars villains more palatable. He certainly works for me, and I think Adam Driver brings one of the best acting performances in Star Wars history to him.
I was so confused until I realised you were both different people.
If you enjoyed it, that's great. I'm 42 years old and I loved it too. Not even sure I can put into words exactly what it was. My best guess is that for me Luke was a big character in my childhood and perhaps it felt like I finally reconnected with that after a very long time.
I thought Mark Hamill did an incredible job.
I enjoyed it, but I'm not sure why they opened it with such a silly thing. The entire film could have been prevented if:
On warping in, they just blew up the ship that they were loading rebels onto from the planet. Despatch your tie fighters from all the star destroyers and just blow it up. Done. Instead they just ignore it, and start shelling the planet and let everyone get away. That seems like a really stupid thing for an evil fleet commander to do - who's entire purpose for being there is to kill everyone.
You wouldn't have many films at all if people behaved in rational ways. Most horror films are good examples of this.
Of course, but there's rational in the sense of 'ok not everyone would think to do that' and then there's rational as in, 'that's the most obvious thing that anybody should be doing'. The solution is not to write that situation into the film in the first place. Or explain on screen why that can't be done.
I like the line of – Snoke corrupted him, made him believe that killing Han would relieve him of the conflict inside, and when it did not Ben turned on Snoke and kills him as revenge for making him kill his father. But I don't think that is quite the line we get from the films. It's there, but muddled with Rey's attempt to turn him to the good, etc.
As I say below, the lack of exploration of Snoke's influence really bugs me. Because I have a hard time buying that these relationships would deteriorate to the point of murder because loving parents sent their son to a loving uncle's boarding/day school. You have to add in an external influence, but this film discards that influence flippantly. Snoke is basically a deus ex machina for how Ben becomes the evil Supreme Leader, and that is poor writing imo.
Obviously Luke's actions are explored in TLJ, and I did like seeing that from multiple perspectives BUT that story has the additional issue of not fitting with Luke's ROTJ character at all. Hence the fan outcry.
As I say below, the lack of exploration of Snoke's influence really bugs me. Because I have a hard time buying that these relationships would deteriorate to the point of murder because loving parents sent their son to a loving uncle's boarding/day school. You have to add in an external influence, but this film discards that influence flippantly. Snoke is basically a deus ex machina for how Ben becomes the evil Supreme Leader, and that is poor writing imo.
Obviously Luke's actions are explored in TLJ, and I did like seeing that from multiple perspectives BUT that story has the additional issue of not fitting with Luke's ROTJ character at all. Hence the fan outcry.
(Spoilering just because some stuff might give away the odd bit)
For me, that was all made clear in TFA - he was manipulated over a period of years by Snoke and has inherited his grandfather's (whose legacy he simultaneously feels bound by and idolises, to the extent he commissioned himself his own intimidating headgear) impetuousness and desire to prove how strong he is. His parents make him feel the "call to the light", making him feel guilt for what he's done (he's a mass murderer at this point, after all), and we saw with Han that he thought killing him would heal that weakness. Instead, it's left him with an even more intimate kind of guilt, to the extent he can't even stand the sight of the Falcon. That's just my interpretation and you might have read the subtext differently, but to me him attempting any kind of reconnection with Leia would be far the more unjustified narratively.
On another note, I've just noticed that this now has a lower viewer score on metacritic than Batman v Superman and Justice League
I think my issues all come back to the treatment of Snoke in this film. For Ben's story to make sense the actions/motivations of Snoke are crucial to understanding Ben's corruption, and why the relationship with his parents fell apart
The context to that Leia quote is that Snoke corrupted him. But with TLJ's treatment of Snoke, that does not get explored at all. I take the point that we are still in the middle of the story, but given what has happened with Snoke I don't think I it is unreasonable to suggest this is going to be an awkward loose thread. So what we are left with is a boy who turned into a patricidal maniac because his parents sent him to boarding school.
This is literally the exact opposite to what I thought about it. Except it's not as enjoyable, agreed.
I agree. It would be a shame to lose Liam Neeson because he's one of the only good things about the movie but as you say he could be moved sideways into another role on the Jedi Council. Qui-Gon Jinn (as he is) only detracts from the story by diminishing Obi-Wan's role and by being an obviously late addition.
Qui Gon and Obi Wan have their own stories in the books that show Obi Wan's growth from a rash and immature boy into the Jedi he becomes and I guess episode 1 was trying to hash that out but far too quickly, in the space of 1 film by showing some growth when really that kind of thing needs a few films, or an entire film dedicated to it rather than it being half a side plot.
Do you really need that much clarity though?
I mean if you think of the original films, most of the ObI-Wan, Vader, Emperor backstory was fleshed out outside the three films, through external sources and (eventually) the prequels. Unless I've forgotten something they don't devote all that much time to explaining why/how exactly the emperor corrupted Anakin, why/how exactly Vader turned on Obi Wan or what the Emperor's backstory is.
That's a fair point. Though this film tried to address their motivations and did a pretty poor job of it which makes it more of an issue. I'd say that applies more from Luke's perspective though. His motivations didn't make any sense. I don't think you need a lot on Kylo Ren because we wouldn't have known what he was like as a child if they hadn't tried to explain it badly.
The Emperor at least had a point in existing and some menace about him.